Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

Skybox · Post #1761 » by **Skybox** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 2:58 pm

I really have soured on Hield in almost any format, primarily due to his deal. The fact that he got benched after getting that big deal, on a young non-playoff team...you'd think he'd be a pretty ideal complement to Fox (the way people want to say he'd complement Fultz)...just too many red flags for me. I'm not calling him a negative value, I'm just not super interested. Evan has all of the skills, I'd just love to see him destroy the impression many of us have that he's not able/willing to participate in a faster-paced, ball-moving offense. Too much evidence to the contrary, at least to the eye test.

MagicFan101 · Post #1762 » by **MagicFan101** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:22 pm

Skybox wrote:I really have soured on Hield in almost any format, primarily due to his deal. The fact that he got benched after getting that big deal, on a young non-playoff team...you'd think he'd be a pretty ideal complement to Fox (the way people want to say he'd complement Fultz)...just too many red flags for me. I'm not calling him a negative value, I'm just not super interested. Evan has all of the skills, I'd just love to see him destroy the impression many of us have that he's not able/willing to participate in a faster-paced, ball-moving offense. Too much evidence to the contrary, at least to the eye test.

I fully believe the situation is more complex than this. That is an “interesting” organization and there are some questionable moments off the court for coach Luke Walton. This screams for a talented kid who needs a fresh start.

Perhaps he is the problem? Perhaps it was the team? Perhaps a little of both?

The safety net is that while he has a large contract, it is declining each year.

We are desperate enough and the price is likely low enough that this is the kind of risk we need to take a chance on given the skill fit for our roster.

MagicFan101 · Post #1763 » by **MagicFan101** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:27 pm

Imagine if we could swap Evan for Hield straight up and then use #15 on Terry and just let DJ + MCW walk ...

Fultz, Terry
Hield, Ross
Chuma, Wes
AG, Chief
Vuc, Mo/Birch

Not bad ... with Isaac in recovery.

zaymon · Post #1764 » by **zaymon** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 5:31 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
Skybox wrote:I really have soured on Hield in almost any format, primarily due to his deal. The fact that he got benched after getting that big deal, on a young non-playoff team...you'd think he'd be a pretty ideal complement to Fox (the way people want to say he'd complement Fultz)...just too many red flags for me. I'm not calling him a negative value, I'm just not super interested. Evan has all of the skills, I'd just love to see him destroy the impression many of us have that he's not able/willing to participate in a faster-paced, ball-moving offense. Too much evidence to the contrary, at least to the eye test.

I fully believe the situation is more complex than this. That is an “interesting” organization and there are some questionable moments off the court for coach Luke Walton. This screams for a talented kid who needs a fresh start.

Perhaps he is the problem? Perhaps it was the team? Perhaps a little of both?

The safety net is that while he has a large contract, it is declining each year.

We are desperate enough and the price is likely low enough that this is the kind of risk we need to take a chance on given the skill fit for our roster.

Hield is not a kid, he is basically Fournier age. We can talk about Evan failing in the playoffs, but we are in the playoffs at least. We played Kings in the bubble and they were no match for us. Both Fournier and Hield were non factors but at least Evan was not a sieve on defense.
I would much rather give Evan another chance to prove himself in the playoffs before a resign than get stuck with Hield.

Xatticus · Post #1765 » by **Xatticus** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 5:31 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Evan and Hield are basically same players. One just has potentially 1 year left on his $17M a year contract,other just starts his ugly 4 years $106M one, while being glorified spot up shooter.
He does have bit better 3% than Evan, but draws no fouls whatsoever. So only "adventage" he has over Evan equals out quickly.

Much like Evan he isn't great defender, he isn't that great as ballhandler.

He makes more sense for a team that has established 2 stars, to make him spot up target -treat. On Magic, he will get exposed as he will be expected to be, much like Evan, second scoring option, and we know for fact, looking at Sacramento, that he , as 1# or 2# option will never lead team anywhere.
Main reason why he is being shopped around is ugly contract and fact Bogdan Bogdanovic can easly replace him. Did it alreaedy.

This is litearlly type of trade where you trade career 14 ppg, 56% TS player (21% usage rate) for career 16 ppg, 56% TS player on 24% usage rate. Definition of latheral move.

Only argument is having him long term, but even that isn't really plus. That is 28 years old guard who provides almost nothing but shooting locked on contract like he is allstar.

On top of that, this trade isn't even possible : Magic have to attach additional $7 000 000 to trade even be possible. So Isaac, Bamba or there is no trade.

This.

Hield is better for what they are, but they aren't dissimilar. Neither of them are worth the money they are making. Worse still is that we are locked into this roster if we take on Hield's contract, so the only value in such a move is if you feel confident that Hield can later be flipped for better assets. I'm not confident that would be the case. If we get locked into Hield's contract, we are treading water for the next three years with a rebuild to follow.

We need to stop trying to figure out how to tinker our way into something meaningful and accept that our window doesn't start now. We need to start making decisions that will benefit us at some point in the future when there at least exists some potential window of competitiveness. Trying to build a winning team with what we have is like trying to put wings on an alligator to make it fly.

pepe1991 · Post #1766 » by **pepe1991** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 6:24 pm

Hield is 19 days younger than Evan, that "getting younger" argument is hilarious

MagicFan101 · Post #1767 » by **MagicFan101** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 6:28 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Hield is 19 days younger than Evan, that "getting younger" argument is hilarious

I did not suggest this allowed us to get younger. If someone did say that then yes, they are wrong.

This does however allow us to get “less-Evan” which is very much a good thing for the TEAM no matter how much you guys want to fool yourselves into believing otherwise.

basketballRob · Post #1768 » by **basketballRob** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 6:38 pm

zaymon wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Skybox wrote:I really have soured on Hield in almost any format, primarily due to his deal. The fact that he got benched after getting that big deal, on a young non-playoff team...you'd think he'd be a pretty ideal complement to Fox (the way people want to say he'd complement Fultz)...just too many red flags for me. I'm not calling him a negative value, I'm just not super interested. Evan has all of the skills, I'd just love to see him destroy the impression many of us have that he's not able/willing to participate in a faster-paced, ball-moving offense. Too much evidence to the contrary, at least to the eye test.

I fully believe the situation is more complex than this. That is an “interesting” organization and there are some questionable moments off the court for coach Luke Walton. This screams for a talented kid who needs a fresh start.

Perhaps he is the problem? Perhaps it was the team? Perhaps a little of both?

The safety net is that while he has a large contract, it is declining each year.

We are desperate enough and the price is likely low enough that this is the kind of risk we need to take a chance on given the skill fit for our roster.

Hield is not a kid, he is basically Fournier age. We can talk about Evan failing in the playoffs, but we are in the playoffs at least. We played Kings in the bubble and they were no match for us. Both Fournier and Hield were non factors but at least Evan was not a sieve on defense.
I would much rather give Evan another chance to prove himself in the playoffs before a resign than get stuck with Hield.

Heild was struggling after recovering from Covid19.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

zaymon · Post #1769 » by **zaymon** » Sun Oct 4, 2020 7:09 pm

basketballRob wrote:
zaymon wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:

I fully believe the situation is more complex than this. That is an “interesting” organization and there are some questionable moments off the court for coach Luke Walton. This screams for a talented kid who needs a fresh start.

Perhaps he is the problem? Perhaps it was the team? Perhaps a little of both?

The safety net is that while he has a large contract, it is declining each year.

We are desperate enough and the price is likely low enough that this is the kind of risk we need to take a chance on given the skill fit for our roster.

Hield is not a kid, he is basically Fournier age. We can talk about Evan failing in the playoffs, but we are in the playoffs at least. We played Kings in the bubble and they were no match for us. Both Fournier and Hield were non factors but at least Evan was not a sieve on defense.
I would much rather give Evan another chance to prove himself in the playoffs before a resign than get stuck with Hield.
Heild was struggling after recovering from Covid19.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

And Fournier was struggling after non covid illness. During regular season Fournier was the better player imo.

jezzerinho · Post #1770 » by **jezzerinho** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:01 pm

Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?

tiderulz · Post #1771 » by **tiderulz** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 5:04 pm

jezzerinho wrote:Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?

no. Smart has an alpha mentality. but his talent isnt equal to his view. Hayward would just leave as soon as he could. i think we could find a better trade than this

The Effect · Post #1772 » by **The Effect** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 5:35 pm

tiderulz wrote:
jezzerinho wrote:Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?

no. Smart has an alpha mentality. but his talent isnt equal to his view. Hayward would just leave as soon as he could. i think we could find a better trade than this

Exactly, this would be a great trade....if smart was as good as he thinks he is (He isnt)

Hayward i would be happy to let leave, thats a HUGGGEEEE contract off the books , so he would be doing us a favor if he left the first chance he got

but essentially giving up gordon, bamba and evan for smart and a hayward rental\future cap space would be a crazy bad deal for us

jezzerinho · Post #1773 » by **jezzerinho** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 7:06 pm

tiderulz wrote:
jezzerinho wrote:Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?

no. Smart has an alpha mentality. but his talent isnt equal to his view. Hayward would just leave as soon as he could. i think we could find a better trade than this

No, he isn't as good as he thinks he is, but he could be the driving force of a very passive Magic team and he's still a good player, a tad above league average, imo.

As for Hayward, before his bad run of unlucky injuries, he was one of the league's top 6 or 8 SFs. Even if he's now only top 10-12, he would transform Orlando. He gets to play with 4 very unselfish players in Fultz, JI (if GH renews), Vuc and Aminu. Now we really do have a ball movement offense and shot creation.

Sure it's a one year rental with no guarantees GH would stick around. But then Fournier is the same and most of us would be happy to have a year less of him if we can get something back. Bamba? Regardless of his upside or not, we don't need him and trying to wait for his stock to improve is just wasting time, imo.

All in all, we're giving up a league average guy, a disappointment and an expiring in exchange for an expiring who is well above league average and an above league average guard.

I'd do it no problem, assuming Hayward could be sold on the vision of a longer deal.

tiderulz · Post #1774 » by **tiderulz** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 7:15 pm

jezzerinho wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
jezzerinho wrote:Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?

no. Smart has an alpha mentality. but his talent isnt equal to his view. Hayward would just leave as soon as he could. i think we could find a better trade than this

No, he isn't as good as he thinks he is, but he could be the driving force of a very passive Magic team and he's still a good player, a tad above league average, imo.

As for Hayward, before his bad run of unlucky injuries, he was one of the league's top 6 or 8 SFs. Even if he's now only top 10-12, he would transform Orlando. He gets to play with 4 very unselfish players in Fultz, JI (if GH renews), Vuc and Aminu. Now we really do have a ball movement offense and shot creation.

Sure it's a one year rental with no guarantees GH would stick around. But then Fournier is the same and most of us would be happy to have a year less of him if we can get something back. Bamba? Regardless of his upside or not, we don't need him and trying to wait for his stock to improve is just wasting time, imo.

All in all, we're giving up a league average guy, a disappointment and an expiring in exchange for an expiring who is well above league average and an above league average guard.

I'd do it no problem, assuming Hayward could be sold on the vision of a longer deal.

Gordon is 30 and developing an injury history. I dont think I want a longer deal with him.

Skybox · Post #1775 » by **Skybox** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 7:22 pm

My only hesitation is Bamba...I hate to add him as a throw-in. I think he's got some good years ahead of him, despite his slow start (honestly how many rookies don't have slow starts in the one and done era?). Not excusing him, he IS disappointing, but I'd like to hang on to him if it's not a home run.

I'd do this. I love M. Smart-he'd either light a fire under our talented but non-competitive guys or go nuts in Dallas Rondo fashion trying.

jezzerinho · Post #1776 » by **jezzerinho** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 7:41 pm

Boston needs a center. I think he'd be key for the deal to happen and otherwise the salary doesn't work.

Xatticus · Post #1777 » by **Xatticus** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 7:56 pm

jezzerinho wrote:Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?

It's not bad. The issue is that we get significantly older. That's a big problem for a team that isn't competitive right now and one that doesn't have any obvious avenues to acquire talent. We get better in the short term, but we still aren't going anywhere meaningful and we are selling some of our future to get there.

jezzerinho · Post #1778 » by **jezzerinho** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 8:36 pm

Older yeah. But significantly? Smart is younger than Evan so we get younger at SG. Hayward Vs Gordon obviously makes us older, but we're not an old team. We have Chuma and #15 coming in, too. Wouldn't be a concern for me. I like the playoff experience and the leadership we get.

Kent · Post #1779 » by **Kent** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 10:10 pm

"Isaiah Thomas ready to contribute to an NBA roster after undergoing a hip procedure five months ago"

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30046701/isaiah-thomas-ready-contribute-nba-roster-undergoing-hip-procedure-five-months-ago

IT:

"It's like night and day for me," Thomas, 31, told ESPN. "There's no more pain. I've got my full range of motion.

"Now, I can lift weights. I can squat low. I can work out twice a day. I'm able to cut and move and stop, able to cut and go. I feel like I'm 31 years old again. And now, I have scientific evidence to show that."

Per his surgeon:

"Now, he's playing like he's eight months out from surgery, not just four. He's such a hard worker. He's moving quickly, and able to jump and pivot."

I know WeHam were rumored to be considering Isaiah Thomas a couple offseasons ago.

If the price is right, would you consider him?

I'm of the mind we resign DJ for cheap. But if IT is anything close to what he was, you have to consider it.

KillMonger · Post #1780 » by **KillMonger** » Tue Oct 6, 2020 6:39 am

Kent wrote:"Isaiah Thomas ready to contribute to an NBA roster after undergoing a hip procedure five months ago"

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30046701/isaiah-thomas-ready-contribute-nba-roster-undergoing-hip-procedure-five-months-ago

IT:

"It's like night and day for me," Thomas, 31, told ESPN. "There's no more pain. I've got my full range of motion.

"Now, I can lift weights. I can squat low. I can work out twice a day. I'm able to cut and move and stop, able to cut and go. I feel like I'm 31 years old again. And now, I have scientific evidence to show that."

Per his surgeon:

"Now, he's playing like he's eight months out from surgery, not just four. He's such a hard worker. He's moving quickly, and able to jump and pivot."

I know WeHam were rumored to be considering Isaiah Thomas a couple offseasons ago.

If the price is right, would you consider him?

I'm of the mind we resign DJ for cheap. But if IT is anything close to what he was, you have to consider it.

It's crazy to remember that at one point IT was an MVP candidate...if he's even a k-mart version of MVP IT he would still be much better than DJ. I would consider it if he's really 100% but knowing this front office and the fact that clifford already talked to Weltman about his thoughts about the team moving forward i wouldn't be surprised if DJ is resigned for continuity sake.