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Constructing the Timberwolves rotation

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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#821 » by Dewey » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:37 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
Dewey wrote:
Jedzz wrote: Not a bad topic at all. Does trading all the picks combined for a better established player fit in the Trading Out category, or is trading out just considered trading for future assets? I think Philly is going to ask for more value for say Simmons than a single pick and filler bodies as appears has been discussed here lately. Simmons might be one of those players Dlo/Towns would be seeking instead of new rookies. Booker of course the other. What Dlo/Towns want around them or who might get along with them might need to be in the equation. If they are actually constructing something real that is.

Plus, the trade out topic might save some from hours of google translating their own thoughts into dizzying phantasmagoric scenarios if the team can get down to 1 or zero picks, and the roster isn't forced to flip entirely for 3 new picks either.


Simply put... I believe all the signs are there that we will exhaust all efforts to pick up a 3rd piece to go along with DLo and KAT.

Option 1: move out of the draft for a core player (ex: Beal, Simmons, Booker)...
Option2: trade down to pick up asset (player and/or future pick, etc)
Option 3: select #1 &#17 and done

Pulling off option #1 is maybe 50/50 at best but I do believe the front office thinks they can get the right pieces to fit around them.

Booker just sold his house. He must be coming to Minnesota. :D

just like that :swami:
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#822 » by KGdaBom » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:54 pm

Dewey wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Dewey wrote:
Simply put... I believe all the signs are there that we will exhaust all efforts to pick up a 3rd piece to go along with DLo and KAT.

Option 1: move out of the draft for a core player (ex: Beal, Simmons, Booker)...
Option2: trade down to pick up asset (player and/or future pick, etc)
Option 3: select #1 &#17 and done

Pulling off option #1 is maybe 50/50 at best but I do believe the front office thinks they can get the right pieces to fit around them.

Booker just sold his house. He must be coming to Minnesota. :D

just like that :swami:

Obviously. There can be no other reason to sell your house other than preparing for a trade to the Timberwolves. :D
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#823 » by Jedzz » Tue Oct 6, 2020 6:37 pm

minimus wrote:[
Many MIN fans understand that the roster we had a year before had three serious issues:

* - shooting
* - passing, ballhandling
* - defense

The difference between Rosas and Thibs vision is...


After trade deadline our new assembled roster without any preparation and chemistry, without KAT, showed promising improvement in terms of shooting, passing and ballhandling. Ryan "plugged" new players in the same offense and they showed whether they fit. One big confirmation of alignment between strategy and tactic in our case is how new players who brought here FO, played under our coaching staff.

* - DLo is an excellent fit
* - JJ is an excellent fit
* - Beasley is an excellent fit
* - Juancho is an excellent fit
* - Vanderbilt is an excellent fit

Now lets compare with players who our previous FO brought here and how they played under HC.

* - Hill did not play
* - Aldrich did not play
* - Teague awful fit, backup PG who is paid as starter
* - Dieng is paid starter money, but could not play starter
* - Gibson was a bad fit was a good player here
* - Wiggins regressed
* - JC was a bad fit, ISO scorer
* - Rose was a badquestionable fit, ISO scorer was a good player here
* - Butler a good fit as skillset, awful fit in locker room personal opinion

It is funny because it might seem that our FO and HC under Thibs were two different persons with completely opposite vision.
Not really. It would seem that part of the FO and their main young star had different visions than Thibs the GM/HC and weren't going to allow him his vision. Sure, some questionable signings as well.

Back to our current HC...


Wait, wait, wait.

First, let's not forget about who else the current GM brought here. You skip to deadline trades as if we didn't sit through a wasted season first. A larger list. Correct me if I missed someone.

* - Treveon Graham - waste of time, terrible fit for 40 tres offense (starter - really?)
* - Shabazz Napier - decent bench pg capable of playing with other guards, showed a little better yet as sole pg in system
* - Noah Vonleh - waste of time if they weren't going to allow him the bench 5 duties of 1-3-1 and rarely did.
* - Bell (?) - was he also Rosas? Another waste of space if not willing to fit him into 1-3-1 plans. Depth bodies I guess.
* - Jarrett Culver - was dumped minutes upon, and pg duties when not ready/didn't fit him. playcreator fairytales fell thru
* - Jake Layman - interesting talent, fragile/soft, improved team while he played
* - Nowell - drafted to G league-shined-GameIQ/Range backburnered team access - 3pt shot didn't break through in NBA yet
* - Reid - G league - interesting range of talents, not as much defense or rebounding developed yet as might hope.
* - McLaughlin - G league - showed perfect system fit, showed even better as sole pg leading offense, capable of starter fill in
* - Kelan Martin - G league - showed fit in system, game IQ is there, hard on himself instead of brushing off plays
* - Allen Crabbe - reclamation attempt off trade(?) - failed
Deadline Trade Ins
* - DLo is an excellent fit Check
* - JJ is an excellent fit Check / Fans want to dump as trade tool
* - Beasley is an excellent fit Check / Fans want to 6th man or let walk instead of pay
* - Juancho is an excellent fit Check / many fans trying to replace
* - Vanderbilt is an excellent fit - Played 5 minutes, did nothing. No proof yet of excellent fit. Assumptions/hope
* - Jacob Evans Played 2 minutes/nothing
* - Omari Spellman never suited up for team
* - Evan Turner never suited up for team


Now that all the names are hopefully listed, and true wasted season time/fits/etc are seen. Carry on with your great descriptions of the differences in player choices/movements that show how great it's been since Thibs. Yet to be realized even if I agree and hope it's getting better at this point.
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Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#824 » by minimus » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:53 am

Read on Twitter


KAT for sure has it
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#825 » by minimus » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:25 pm

Two "good" KATs games within "old" offense:



And one video about MIN five-out scheme:


A few things I noticed:

* - the difference between first two videos and the last one is how static, almost stagnant our offense looked even with KAT. Five-out scheme requires a lot of ball movement and off ball movement, but I am impressed how natural it looked for Reid, JMac, DLo, JJ, Okogie, Beasley and Juancho. Even without training camp, without preseason they were able to run it. Even more impressive that Reid, JMac had no NBA experience
* - it does not make any sense to put a "static" player at PF. Perfect example from these videos was Wiggins. Even though he played at wings and as ballhandler, his presence killed fluid ball movement. Sure PF next to KAT will be a low usage player, while Wiggins had high usage in MIN, but still. Juancho is exposed in MIN defense as starting PF because he cant defend in space, but he is mobile, and shoots at high rate/percentage from 3pt line. Dynamic PF is a must for five-out system. Either he should provide slashing ability or shooting, combined with defensive versatility and in ideal scenario above average passing ability
* - Rosas wants BPA over fit, but one thing I clearly see that our young role players are very good fit for five-out. JMac, Martin, Nowell, Reid, Vanderbilt, Layman, Okogie and Culver. They all fit this system. Sure they all have glaring weaknesses, but fit is there
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#826 » by Klomp » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:55 pm

minimus wrote:A few things I noticed:

* - the difference between first two videos and the last one is how static, almost stagnant our offense looked even with KAT. Five-out scheme requires a lot of ball movement and off ball movement, but I am impressed how natural it looked for Reid, JMac, DLo, JJ, Okogie, Beasley and Juancho. Even without training camp, without preseason they were able to run it. Even more impressive that Reid, JMac had no NBA experience
* - it does not make any sense to put a "static" player at PF. Perfect example from these videos was Wiggins. Even though he played at wings and as ballhandler, his presence killed fluid ball movement. Sure PF next to KAT will be a low usage player, while Wiggins had high usage in MIN, but still. Juancho is exposed in MIN defense as starting PF because he cant defend in space, but he is mobile, and shoots at high rate/percentage from 3pt line. Dynamic PF is a must for five-out system. Either he should provide slashing ability or shooting, combined with defensive versatility and in ideal scenario above average passing ability
* - Rosas wants BPA over fit, but one thing I clearly see that our young role players are very good fit for five-out. JMac, Martin, Nowell, Reid, Vanderbilt, Layman, Okogie and Culver. They all fit this system. Sure they all have glaring weaknesses, but fit is there

This is such a huge part of the system, and why I'd go as far as to consider Obi Toppin as a more likely fit here than either James Wiseman or Onyeka Okongwu. Ultimately, not sure any are highly likely, but I'd put Toppin and Avdija at the top for offensive fits next to Towns.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.

Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#827 » by gandlogo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:A few things I noticed:

* - the difference between first two videos and the last one is how static, almost stagnant our offense looked even with KAT. Five-out scheme requires a lot of ball movement and off ball movement, but I am impressed how natural it looked for Reid, JMac, DLo, JJ, Okogie, Beasley and Juancho. Even without training camp, without preseason they were able to run it. Even more impressive that Reid, JMac had no NBA experience
* - it does not make any sense to put a "static" player at PF. Perfect example from these videos was Wiggins. Even though he played at wings and as ballhandler, his presence killed fluid ball movement. Sure PF next to KAT will be a low usage player, while Wiggins had high usage in MIN, but still. Juancho is exposed in MIN defense as starting PF because he cant defend in space, but he is mobile, and shoots at high rate/percentage from 3pt line. Dynamic PF is a must for five-out system. Either he should provide slashing ability or shooting, combined with defensive versatility and in ideal scenario above average passing ability
* - Rosas wants BPA over fit, but one thing I clearly see that our young role players are very good fit for five-out. JMac, Martin, Nowell, Reid, Vanderbilt, Layman, Okogie and Culver. They all fit this system. Sure they all have glaring weaknesses, but fit is there

This is such a huge part of the system, and why I'd go as far as to consider Obi Toppin as a more likely fit here than either James Wiseman or Onyeka Okongwu. Ultimately, not sure any are highly likely, but I'd put Toppin and Avdija at the top for offensive fits next to Towns.


Without a doubt Avdija and Toppin are better fits offensively - in the offense the Wolves want to run. At this point I would argue that being switchable on defense is more important than rim protection. Not just for the Wolves, but league wide. That’s where I still have some heartburn with Toppin. Maybe he can improve with better awareness and scheme.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#828 » by Dewey » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:27 pm

gandlogo wrote:
Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:A few things I noticed:

* - the difference between first two videos and the last one is how static, almost stagnant our offense looked even with KAT. Five-out scheme requires a lot of ball movement and off ball movement, but I am impressed how natural it looked for Reid, JMac, DLo, JJ, Okogie, Beasley and Juancho. Even without training camp, without preseason they were able to run it. Even more impressive that Reid, JMac had no NBA experience
* - it does not make any sense to put a "static" player at PF. Perfect example from these videos was Wiggins. Even though he played at wings and as ballhandler, his presence killed fluid ball movement. Sure PF next to KAT will be a low usage player, while Wiggins had high usage in MIN, but still. Juancho is exposed in MIN defense as starting PF because he cant defend in space, but he is mobile, and shoots at high rate/percentage from 3pt line. Dynamic PF is a must for five-out system. Either he should provide slashing ability or shooting, combined with defensive versatility and in ideal scenario above average passing ability
* - Rosas wants BPA over fit, but one thing I clearly see that our young role players are very good fit for five-out. JMac, Martin, Nowell, Reid, Vanderbilt, Layman, Okogie and Culver. They all fit this system. Sure they all have glaring weaknesses, but fit is there

This is such a huge part of the system, and why I'd go as far as to consider Obi Toppin as a more likely fit here than either James Wiseman or Onyeka Okongwu. Ultimately, not sure any are highly likely, but I'd put Toppin and Avdija at the top for offensive fits next to Towns.


Without a doubt Avdija and Toppin are better fits offensively - in the offense the Wolves want to run. At this point I would argue that being switchable on defense is more important than rim protection. Not just for the Wolves, but league wide. That’s where I still have some heartburn with Toppin. Maybe he can improve with better awareness and scheme.

This is where I'd consider the MN/CHI deal ... #1/Culver for #4 Markenan/Future FRP ... draft Avdija @ #4.

DLo/Beasley/Avdija/Markenan/KAT
McL/Okogie/Layman/Hernangomez/Reid

Gives better balance but uncertain if it moves the needle enough ... we'd gain some skill, but gain little defensively. Just stirring the pot here.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#830 » by UnFadeable21 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 am

Minnesota Timberwolves


2020

Evan Turner

Malik Beasley (restricted)

Juan Hernangomez (restricted)

James Johnson (player)

Jordan McLaughlin (restricted)

Kelan Martin (restricted)

2021

Jarred Vanderbilt (restricted)
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#831 » by Jedzz » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:51 am

UnFadeable21 wrote:Minnesota Timberwolves


2020

Evan Turner

Malik Beasley (restricted)

Juan Hernangomez (restricted)

James Johnson (player)

Jordan McLaughlin (restricted)

Kelan Martin (restricted)

2021

Jarred Vanderbilt (restricted)


Oddly enough, none of those players were here in the previous season, and most of them weren't here before February of this year. They are all just as likely to be gone as stay at this point if you believe a majority of people here. That large group also probably doean't even account for half the roster moves made by Rosas since he took over.
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Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#832 » by minimus » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:41 am

minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter


While I like Tyler Bey as prospect a lot, because he checks many boxes as defender and rim runner, I think he needs one more skill to earn spot in MIN rotation. An ideal starting PF that we looking for, must be able to play within high pace offense. Let me explain. Ryan and Rosas want this team to play fast, with quick transition from defense to offense, multiple reeads, cuts and passes. To fit this scheme a PF must be able to execute simple passes and have above average IQ to read defense. It is clear to see why JJ and Vando have been targeted by Rosas in trades as they both fit our offense well. Even Juancho and Layman read defense well, moves well off the ball. I like Tyler Bey, but I still think that Tillman should be our priority number one as late FRP
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#833 » by minimus » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:49 pm

Another intriguing prospect is Patrick Williams. He showed some signs of playmaking skills and he is an exceptional athlete. One of the youngest players of this draft.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#834 » by Dewey » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:17 pm

minimus wrote:Another intriguing prospect is Patrick Williams. He showed some signs of playmaking skills and he is an exceptional athlete. One of the youngest players of this draft.

He and Deni
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#835 » by minimus » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:58 pm

Dewey wrote:
minimus wrote:Another intriguing prospect is Patrick Williams. He showed some signs of playmaking skills and he is an exceptional athlete. One of the youngest players of this draft.

He and Deni


Yes, Deni is an intriguing prospect. But when I see him missing FTs, I cant find any logical explanation for these misses. It is like sometimes he has no touch whatsoever, his shooting form is solid, footwork is not bad either, release is smooth, but, man, how a wing can shoot 54.3% from FT?
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#836 » by Jedzz » Wed Nov 4, 2020 2:10 am

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:A few things I noticed:

* - the difference between first two videos and the last one is how static, almost stagnant our offense looked even with KAT. Five-out scheme requires a lot of ball movement and off ball movement, but I am impressed how natural it looked for Reid, JMac, DLo, JJ, Okogie, Beasley and Juancho. Even without training camp, without preseason they were able to run it. Even more impressive that Reid, JMac had no NBA experience
* - it does not make any sense to put a "static" player at PF. Perfect example from these videos was Wiggins. Even though he played at wings and as ballhandler, his presence killed fluid ball movement. Sure PF next to KAT will be a low usage player, while Wiggins had high usage in MIN, but still. Juancho is exposed in MIN defense as starting PF because he cant defend in space, but he is mobile, and shoots at high rate/percentage from 3pt line. Dynamic PF is a must for five-out system. Either he should provide slashing ability or shooting, combined with defensive versatility and in ideal scenario above average passing ability
* - Rosas wants BPA over fit, but one thing I clearly see that our young role players are very good fit for five-out. JMac, Martin, Nowell, Reid, Vanderbilt, Layman, Okogie and Culver. They all fit this system. Sure they all have glaring weaknesses, but fit is there

This is such a huge part of the system, and why I'd go as far as to consider Obi Toppin as a more likely fit here than either James Wiseman or Onyeka Okongwu. Ultimately, not sure any are highly likely, but I'd put Toppin and Avdija at the top for offensive fits next to Towns.


Listen to this small part from 1:40 or so to 3:20.

Built for the modern NBA. On the offensive end, trending towards shot creators and shot makers. SHOT MAKERS can't be forgotten, and not trending towards 6-10 PF that play like centers, It's sending out Al Horford and bringing in Kemba Walker. It's not defense and smash mouth offense anymore. To this guy anyway. I agree as long as your team has some True talent at SF roles that make shots at a high level, heaps of BBIQ and can be disruptive on defense on the other end. Got a Tatum? Because it might not work like this with junk offensively at the SF role. Instead of sliding smaller players up, I want them to find larger players that are active, athletic and skilled offensive players to handle the Forward wing roles. If they have decent or good size, they won't get killed by the few teams that do play with size. Just don't bring in the statues or defense only players.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#837 » by minimus » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:52 pm

https://theboxand1.weebly.com/nba-posts/karl-anthony-towns-5-out-offense-and-the-evolution-of-nba-spacing#


This is a must read. It explains in details Ryan's work as HC, KAT development, system that we are trying to build, DLo role and criteria for PF, SF candidates.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#838 » by No-Man » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:03 pm

My expectations are as follows;

Team operates over the cap, Juancho and Malik are retained to reasonable deals using the leverage the team's got
Evans and Vanderbilt are let go, maybe Spellman too (depending on what happens with 33rd, stash? 2-way? real contract?)
McLaughlin gets signed to a real deal
The team uses the MLE to sign a vet either at PG/SG or SF/PF, then uses the vet minimum for another guy

Some names that make sense to me; Campazzo, Napier, Millsap, Craig, Rivers, Bradley, Derrick Jones Jr., Crowder, Moore, Kenrich Williams, Gary Clark Jr., Andre Roberson, Augustin, Rondaé Hollis-Jefferson, Chris Boucher

Only Campazzo, Millsap, Jones, Crowder, Boucher are worth of investing the MLE/part of it imo, best case scenario clearly is Facundo to me, with maybe a guy like Rondaé/Clark/Williams on the cheap or with a part of the MLE to make sure you get him

No idea who is the pick at 17th but if it ain't a stash (Bolmaro only plausible one) it means that the roster is down to one roster spot

Russell-McLaughlin
Beasley-Ball-Nowell
Culver-Okogie-Layman
Hernangómez-Johnson
Towns-Reid-Spellman
+17th

You could open up another roster spot by cutting Spellman, dunno if ownership would be so cheap to like trade Evans+Spellman (both deals are guaranteed)+33rd+cash to get rid of them, that'd be sad

Let's say you do get one of Campazzo, Millsap or Crowder for the MLE (or part of it leaving some available for the last guy, to pay over the vet's min and get an edge), and you draft Poku, would be my choice, or Achiuwa, maybe more realistic, 17th

Russell-Campazzo-McLaughlin
Beasley-Ball-Nowell
Culver-Okogie-Layman
Hernangómez-Johnson-Achiuwa
Towns-Reid-Spellman
+2-ways

Maybe you cut Spellman to sign another guy, or trade both like I mentioned along 33rd

Martin could stay as a 2-way I guess, there will be options there
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#839 » by Neeva » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:17 pm

Spellman doesn’t even wanna be on the wolves, he is an easy cut, keep 33 it is possible someone good will there like McDaniels, Tillman or Riller and Rosas seems to like Scrubb?
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#840 » by minimus » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:39 pm

Fischella wrote:My expectations are as follows;

Team operates over the cap, Juancho and Malik are retained to reasonable deals using the leverage the team's got
Evans and Vanderbilt are let go


Vanderbilt was targeted by Rosas in DEN trade, praised during mini-bubble for offseason progress. There is no way we simply cut him.

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