How Good is Jimmy Butler?

[Michael Jackson]

One thing I don't understand teams are not doing more often is daring Jimmy to shoot more 3's. He used to be a solid threat, but for whatever reason, it is not there this year. I bet Lakers will sag back tonight's game.

He was shooting above 35% since 2016 from 3 until he got to the Sixers. They broke him.

The sixers break shooting. Ask Fultz and Ben Simmons. Philly water ruins shooting (JJ Reddick only drank and bathed in bottled water).

[Michael Jackson]

If these finals were occurring under normal circumstances, Jimmy's 40 point triple-double would probably be considered as one of the greatest single-game performances in NBA history. He really was unstoppable in the 4th, and LeBron had no answer for him. It just goes to show you how badly GarPax constructed teams while we had Butler, because he was rarely surrounded by shooters and spacers.

That's for sure. Can you imagine if we did what Thibs encouraged and drafted Draymond Green, kept Dinwiddie and drafted someone like Gary Harris instead of trading two picks for McDermott? I don't know how Draymond would have fit temper wise with Butler, but that is some really tough defense below - shooting may have been a slight concern outside of Gary Harris though.

Dinwiddie
Gary Harris
Butler
Draymond
Whatever

In that scenario Nurkic would have been the 5.

[TheSuzerain]

We could have landed Chris Paul that offseason. Recruited him with Wade/Butler.

It was 100% doable.

[SfBull]

If these finals were occurring under normal circumstances, Jimmy's 40 point triple-double would probably be considered as one of the greatest single-game performances in NBA history. He really was unstoppable in the 4th, and LeBron had no answer for him. It just goes to show you how badly GarPax constructed teams while we had Butler, because he was rarely surrounded by shooters and spacers.

That's for sure. Can you imagine if we did what Thibs encouraged and drafted Draymond Green, kept Dinwiddie and drafted someone like Gary Harris instead of trading two picks for McDermott? I don't know how Draymond would have fit temper wise with Butler, but that is some really tough defense below - shooting may have been a slight concern outside of Gary Harris though.

Dinwiddie
Gary Harris
Butler
Draymond
Whatever

With any foresight it easily could have been

Dinwiddie
Bogdanovi or Joe Harris
Buckets
Draymond
Nurki or Capella

How can we feel about that?

[SfBull]

That's for sure. Can you imagine if we did what Thibs encouraged and drafted Draymond Green, kept Dinwiddie and drafted someone like Gary Harris instead of trading two picks for McDermott? I don't know how Draymond would have fit temper wise with Butler, but that is some really tough defense below - shooting may have been a slight concern outside of Gary Harris though.

Dinwiddie
Gary Harris
Butler
Draymond
Whatever

With any foresight it easily could have been

Dinwiddie
Bogdanovi or Joe Harris
Buckets
Draymond
Nurki or Capella

I always thought the McDermott trade was one reason why they traded Butler. Let's say they still do the McDermott trade, but decide to build with Butler.

In 2017 they draft one of these players: John Collins, OG Anunoby, or Jarrett Allen.

Maybe they even keep their 2nd round pick? Probably not, but these players were available: Thomas Bryant, Dillon Brooks and Monte Morris

My guess is that 2018 is a lost season because Portis punched Mirotic, but the Bulls would still finish with more wins than they did (because of Butler). My guess is that these players would be available: SGA, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr, and Kevin Huerter.

Do they still trade Mirotic? Probably. If they already drafted OG, or another wing player, do they draft Hutchison? Other players that were available: Aaron Holiday, Anfernee Simons, Mitchell Robinson and Landry Shamet.

Combine that with Butler and smart FA moves and it's not a bad team.

It's a much better team that we have now.The right thing to do was obviously trade Portis and we'd likely have Niko playing for us until now.

[SfBull]

I always thought the McDermott trade was one reason why they traded Butler. Let's say they still do the McDermott trade, but decide to build with Butler.

In 2017 they draft one of these players: John Collins, OG Anunoby, or Jarrett Allen.

Maybe they even keep their 2nd round pick? Probably not, but these players were available: Thomas Bryant, Dillon Brooks and Monte Morris

My guess is that 2018 is a lost season because Portis punched Mirotic, but the Bulls would still finish with more wins than they did (because of Butler). My guess is that these players would be available: SGA, Miles Bridges, Michael Porter Jr, and Kevin Huerter.

Do they still trade Mirotic? Probably. If they already drafted OG, or another wing player, do they draft Hutchison? Other players that were available: Aaron Holiday, Anfernee Simons, Mitchell Robinson and Landry Shamet.

Combine that with Butler and smart FA moves and it's not a bad team.

As bad as was the McDermott trade, he was essentially a late lottery pick. Your team should not be decimated because of that pick. Heck, if they were smart...he was a cheap useful player at the end of the bench.

Acting like one bad pick changes the course of your team is the most irritating thing. Doug was not on a max contract for salary cap purposes either. It was just plain incompetence as a GM and President. Pat Riley has made a lot of bad decisions in drafting, free agency and trades. It should not make you get rid of a Jimmy level home grown talent.

The McDermott trade meant that the Bulls didn't have any young players with upside to build with Butler. Then if they kept Butler that potentially means that the team finishes each year with too many wins to get a top talent in the draft. At least I think that's the thought behind it.

I didn't want them to trade Butler at that time, but I think that's one reason why they did it. The other reasons were his future contract and what they thought about him as being a player to lead the team.

Obviously in retrospect the trade doesn't look good.

The trade didn't look good as the players we got
didn't bring top talent for us.It is so obvious now .The Bulls just regressed since that trade and now we can just hope the young players can evolve playing for a good coach for the first time.

[HomoSapien]

That's for sure. Can you imagine if we did what Thibs encouraged and drafted Draymond Green, kept Dinwiddie and drafted someone like Gary Harris instead of trading two picks for McDermott? I don't know how Draymond would have fit temper wise with Butler, but that is some really tough defense below - shooting may have been a slight concern outside of Gary Harris though.

Dinwiddie
Gary Harris
Butler
Draymond
Whatever

With any foresight it easily could have been

Dinwiddie
Bogdanovi or Joe Harris
Buckets
Draymond
Nurki or Capella

How can we feel about that?

Awful. That's a championship-level team. Quite honestly, a lineup of Rose, Gary Harris, Butler, Mirotic, and Nurkic possibly is an EC contender too.

[SfBull]

The McDermott trade meant that the Bulls didn't have any young players with upside to build with Butler. Then if they kept Butler that potentially means that the team finishes each year with too many wins to get a top talent in the draft. At least I think that's the thought behind it.

I didn't want them to trade Butler at that time, but I think that's one reason why they did it. The other reasons were his future contract and what they thought about him as being a player to lead the team.

Obviously in retrospect the trade doesn't look good.

They could have got rid of everyone except Mirotic n Butler. They could have easily reset and built a team on top of those two.

I agree with you, but I don't think Mirotic was going to stay after Portis punched him.

Niko could have stayed if GarPax had just got rid of a bad player like Portis.

[Ugly Duckling]

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but you have arguably the 2nd best 2-way wing in the game in his prime, you drafted him, he's loyal to Chicago, Chicago doesn't typically attract stars. What were you thinking trading him for a dunk champ with a torn ACL who can shoot, a second yr PG who can't and a pick?

[Dan Z]

They could have got rid of everyone except Mirotic n Butler. They could have easily reset and built a team on top of those two.

I agree with you, but I don't think Mirotic was going to stay after Portis punched him.

Niko could have stayed if GarPax had just got rid of a bad player like Portis.

It's possible, but he was ultimately traded. That means GarPax either sided with Portis or Mirotic wasn't willing to stay no matter what the did.

[SfBull]

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but you have arguably the 2nd best 2-way wing in the game in his prime, you drafted him, he's loyal to Chicago, Chicago doesn't typically attract stars. What were you thinking trading him for a dunk champ with a torn ACL who can shoot, a second yr PG who can't and a pick?

There's just a word to summarize it : Dumbness.

[PhilLeotardo]

Slightly OT, but I was actually going to make a thread devoted to looking back on the Mirotic/Portis debacle & reflecting on it

In essence, the entire situation (what lead up to it, the actual fight, and how the fallout was so horribly mismanaged) was a direct microcosm of the unfathomably toxic living/work space that PaxGarJerry not only implemented, but willingly fostered & nurtured

It’s actually quite freaky & unsettling. I can just imagine Paxson thinking/saying “MJ violently assaulted teammates during practice, it’s called being competitive! Who wants it more!”, utilizing some twisted Neanderthal/baby boomer/toxic masculinity “logic” in order to “motivate” players. I’m sure this nightmarish rhetoric is largely to blame for the Markkanen/WCJ heat as well

It is absolute insanity that such a hazardous/unsafe work environment was allowed to exist for as long as it did, and get as bad as it did, in the freaking 2020 NBA. Unbelievable, really. You can’t make this stuff up (a friend of mine who works for HULU actually said that there are talks to make a series/film about the PaxGar totalitarian regime). Just imagine how employees from other franchises, and more importantly, how PLAYERS viewed the prospect of having to work for the Bulls. I love how Bulls fans delusionally kept coming up with phantom reasons for why no stars wanted to play for the GOAT sports franchise, when the real reason was clear as day the entire time

And still, everywhere you look, the perpetual delusion/Stockholm syndrome persists, as illustrated by a comment in this very post “Chicago doesn’t attract stars” lol no. JerryPaxGar didn’t attract ANYONE. Never mind players; coaches, accountants, janitors, lmao there wasn’t a soul that wanted anything to do with working under them. Star players have been searching for the reasons to play for the Bulls for eons. Being a star player on the Chicago Bulls when they’re winning means that you’re one of the wealthiest & most famous athletes on the globe. The dilemma, was what player in their right mind was willing to sacrifice their mental/physical health? Because both of those respective entities were placed in serious jeopardy when you signed on to work for PaxGar

I wish we could obtain more direct insight as to why it was able to fester & deteriorate for so long. I know rich white people do incredibly bizarre & ego-driven things when they’ve already made their big money; does anyone think JRs mindset was “I’m going to allow this to get as bad as possible, rock bottom-levels of horrible, and then I’m going to rebuild the castle, just to prove that I can”....? I’m just trying to make sense of the mayhem. Why would an owner want to devalue their franchise? Because it honestly seemed like that is precisely what they were trying to do. “You think it’s bad now? I’m going to let it get ten times worse”. I mean, an owner has to look around the league & observe how successful franchises function, and then follow suit, no?? Heck, the Bulls themselves laid the blueprint for success in the NBA. Someone rationalize the insanity, please! lol!!

[HomoSapien]

Slightly OT, but I was actually going to make a thread devoted to looking back on the Mirotic/Portis debacle & reflecting on it

In essence, the entire situation (what lead up to it, the actual fight, and how the fallout was so horribly mismanaged) was a direct microcosm of the unfathomably toxic living/work space that PaxGarJerry not only implemented, but willingly fostered & nurtured

It’s actually quite freaky & unsettling. I can just imagine Paxson thinking/saying “MJ violently assaulted teammates during practice, it’s called being competitive! Who wants it more!”, utilizing some twisted Neanderthal/baby boomer/toxic masculinity “logic” in order to “motivate” players. I’m sure this nightmarish rhetoric is largely to blame for the Markkanen/WCJ heat as well

It is absolute insanity that such a hazardous/unsafe work environment was allowed to exist for as long as it did, and get as bad as it did, in the freaking 2020 NBA. Unbelievable, really. You can’t make this stuff up (a friend of mine who works for HULU actually said that there are talks to make a series/film about the PaxGar totalitarian regime). Just imagine how employees from other franchises, and more importantly, how PLAYERS viewed the prospect of having to work for the Bulls. I love how Bulls fans delusionally kept coming up with phantom reasons for why no stars wanted to play for the GOAT sports franchise, when the real reason was clear as day the entire time

And still, everywhere you look, the perpetual delusion/Stockholm syndrome persists, as illustrated by a comment in this very post “Chicago doesn’t attract stars” lol no. JerryPaxGar didn’t attract ANYONE. Never mind players; coaches, accountants, janitors, lmao there wasn’t a soul that wanted anything to do with working under them. Star players have been searching for the reasons to play for the Bulls for eons. Being a star player on the Chicago Bulls when they’re winning means that you’re one of the wealthiest & most famous athletes on the globe. The dilemma, was what player in their right mind was willing to sacrifice their mental/physical health? Because both of those respective entities were placed in serious jeopardy when you signed on to work for PaxGar

I wish we could obtain more direct insight as to why it was able to fester & deteriorate for so long. I know rich white people do incredibly bizarre & ego-driven things when they’ve already made their big money; does anyone think JRs mindset was “I’m going to allow this to get as bad as possible, rock bottom-levels of horrible, and then I’m going to rebuild the castle, just to prove that I can”....? I’m just trying to make sense of the mayhem. Why would an owner want to devalue their franchise? Because it honestly seemed like that is precisely what they were trying to do. “You think it’s bad now? I’m going to let it get ten times worse”. I mean, an owner has to look around the league & observe how successful franchises function, and then follow suit, no?? Heck, the Bulls themselves laid the blueprint for success in the NBA. Someone rationalize the insanity, please! lol!!

Good post. Regarding Paxson, you have to remember that this is the same guy that had a physical altercation with Del Negro as an executive and got away without even a slap on the wrist. Even though he apologized, the apology always felt phony and you get the sense that this is a guy who sees altercations between teammates/coworkers as some sort of sign of passion.

[wickywack]

Interesting write up by Tom Haberstroh on Jimmy Butler and analytics:

https://www.nbcsports.com/national/miami-heats-jimmy-butler-defies-anti-analytics-guy-myth

The punchline is that analytics has loved Butler for a long long time. Even back in college.

[Ugly Duckling]

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but you have arguably the 2nd best 2-way wing in the game in his prime, you drafted him, he's loyal to Chicago, Chicago doesn't typically attract stars. What were you thinking trading him for a dunk champ with a torn ACL who can shoot, a second yr PG who can't and a pick?

There's just a word to summarize it : Dumbness.

I wish it was that simple. I mean stupidity is def a part of it, but I feel like it's ego. Pax got real full of himself after hitting that championship winner

[Wingy]

MIrotic had to go too.

I mean, look where he is now. He ain't about that life.

He wanted to be a Chicago Bull, just like Jimmy did. So, we don't know how things would have worked out if he stayed with the Bulls. Maybe you're right and he would have gone back to Europe anyway, but I don't know.

With Jimmy in the room as the alpha, who knows what happens with Portis/Niko. It’s actually possible that Niko is in even deeper doo doo when it came to teammate sentiment, and Jimmy could’ve lobbied coaches for more Portis love.

Wasn’t there talk of Niko loafing it, and acting entitled? We all know Jimmy ain’t about that.

[PrimzyBulls81]

Jimmy looked tired in this game 4Q and sadly entire Heat team didnt know what to do on offense, Goran was missed badly.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Jimmys offensive toolkit is so limited. He couldn’t even put on a move when 1:1 with either LeBron or AD. It was kind of embarrassing tbh. Not taking anything away from him, but he’s not an elite level player. He is IMO a great #2 option on a championship team, and we should’ve kept him

[Just_Bullz]

As mentioned before, this is as far as it goes for Jimmy. Hell of a player and an asset to his team.

The heats are not gonna repeat this heroic run again next season unless they re-tool significantly. This was a supernova season for them.

[johnnyvann840]

Jimmys offensive toolkit is so limited. He couldn’t even put on a move when 1:1 with either LeBron or AD. It was kind of embarrassing tbh. Not taking anything away from him, but he’s not an elite level player. He is IMO a great #2 option on a championship team, and we should’ve kept him

I couldn't disagree more vehemently. His offensive game is really not that limited. In fact, just the opposite. He's extremely versatile as a scorer and play maker. I will admit that he passed up too many open 3's in this game and didn't attack as much as he did last game. But, Jesus, the kid was exhausted which is totally understandable looking at the circumstances. But even still, just look at his line tonight despite having to play both ends hard every time down. He just put up 22/9/10 with 3 steals and a block on great efficiency while being defended by two of the best defenders. He only turned the ball over 3 times while missing a trip double by a rebound..... which was remarkable for how much he was keyed on by the Lakers D, which happens to be an amazing defense. There were several times in that game where he just blew past AD and Lebron... he still got to the line 7 times. Kind of tough when you are the primary ball handler, the go to guy, playmaker, the best defender and the one guarding Lebron James most of the game. I mean Jimmy has to do it all for that team and his teammates just weren't knocking down the open looks tonight. Without having Dragic out there to take some of the ballhandling and playmaking off his shoulders, Jimmy just has so much on his shoulders and he still performed like a champ. He has carried his team about as far as anybody could have carried that group, especially with Bam and Goran going down in the Finals.

I just have to add this because I'm so blown away by the comment that Jimmy's game was somehow "kind of embarrassing, tbh", last night. How in the F was that performance embarrassing? To whom? The Lakers defense? Jimmy was outstanding. He barely missed a triple double by a rebound and scored 22 pts (on 17 shots) to go with 10 assists (with just 3 TO's) and 9 rebounds (and throw in 3 steals and a block) while being the primary ball handler, guarding the best player on the other team most of the time, forcing his way to the line, amking plays for teammates. Doing it all for his team. And you say it is embarrassing? Anybody making a comment like this should be embarrassed.... (TBH).

and yes, without a doubt, Jimmy is indeed an elite player and a #1 on a Finals team. He's a great leader who makes everybody around him better. A rare true two way player who leaves it all on the floor on both ends. Has made every team he's been on significantly better and when he leaves they immediately are worse. Just look at advanced stats, especially scoreboard related stats, and Jimmy is easily a top ten player in this league. Impact wise, he is top 5.