2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[70sFan]

Gobert has too easily exploitable a flaw in the playoffs vs higher level competition for me to seriously consider him as the best defender in the league. I'll take Peak Draymond on defense over Peak Gobert any day. The switchy rim protector archetype matters way more than an Uber rim protector. It's cute and all when you run your base drop defense all regular season but that **** ain't cutting it thru 4 rounds. Some team will exploit you and send you packing

Nobody (other than Warriors who dominated everybody) exploited Gobert's defense. He dominated against Houston in 2019 series, despite Rockets being the worst possible matchup for him.

[Joey Wheeler]

Gobert has too easily exploitable a flaw in the playoffs vs higher level competition for me to seriously consider him as the best defender in the league. I'll take Peak Draymond on defense over Peak Gobert any day. The switchy rim protector archetype matters way more than an Uber rim protector. It's cute and all when you run your base drop defense all regular season but that **** ain't cutting it thru 4 rounds. Some team will exploit you and send you packing

Nobody (other than Warriors who dominated everybody) exploited Gobert's defense. He dominated against Houston in 2019 series, despite Rockets being the worst possible matchup for him.

Gobert is an amazing rim protector, but he's not a great defender in space. In the current NBA metagame, you want someone who can protect the rim but can also switch on anyone and cover a lot of ground defensively. The best defensive player in the NBA is Davis, 2nd is Embiid. Whoever is 3rd, it's a distant third, Davis and Embiid are honestly the only guys I'd trust to anchor a defensive-minded title contender.

Gobert would have been incredible playing in the 90s, but right now his relative lack of mobility is just exploitable, you have to make too many compromises defensively as a team to avoid him getting cooked by the Currys and Hardens of the world in the perimeter.

[PaulieWal]

LeBron has all but locked himself into the #1 spot for me this year unless the Lakers go on to lose the series and he scores 0 points in every game. His combination of offensive + defense in these playoffs has been amazing . He had a bad game and a half in the Finals but other than that over the entire RS + PS there is no one else I rather have for this season. Easy choice.

[70sFan]

Gobert has too easily exploitable a flaw in the playoffs vs higher level competition for me to seriously consider him as the best defender in the league. I'll take Peak Draymond on defense over Peak Gobert any day. The switchy rim protector archetype matters way more than an Uber rim protector. It's cute and all when you run your base drop defense all regular season but that **** ain't cutting it thru 4 rounds. Some team will exploit you and send you packing

Nobody (other than Warriors who dominated everybody) exploited Gobert's defense. He dominated against Houston in 2019 series, despite Rockets being the worst possible matchup for him.

Gobert is an amazing rim protector, but he's not a great defender in space. In the current NBA metagame, you want someone who can protect the rim but can also switch on anyone and cover a lot of ground defensively. The best defensive player in the NBA is Davis, 2nd is Embiid. Whoever is 3rd, it's a distant third, Davis and Embiid are honestly the only guys I'd trust to anchor a defensive-minded title contender.

Gobert would have been incredible playing in the 90s, but right now his relative lack of mobility is just exploitable, you have to make too many compromises defensively as a team to avoid him getting cooked by the Currys and Hardens of the world in the perimeter.

Gobert is better against spread P&Rs than Embiid. Well, he's better than Embiid at everything but post defense probably. Gobert isn't slow or immobile, he can guard space just fine and he's much smarter with that than Embiid, who isn't good P&R defender at all.

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[70sFan]

LeBron has all but locked himself into the #1 spot for me this year unless the Lakers go on to lose the series and he scores 0 points in every game. His combination of offensive + defense in these playoffs has been amazing . He had a bad game and a half in the Finals but other than that over the entire RS + PS there is no one else I rather have for this season. Easy choice.

I view Davis and James as neck and neck in playoffs, but LeBron was much better in regular season. It's another POTY James season

[PaulieWal]

LeBron has all but locked himself into the #1 spot for me this year unless the Lakers go on to lose the series and he scores 0 points in every game. His combination of offensive + defense in these playoffs has been amazing . He had a bad game and a half in the Finals but other than that over the entire RS + PS there is no one else I rather have for this season. Easy choice.

I view Davis and James as neck and neck in playoffs, but LeBron was much better in regular season. It's another POTY James season

I have read the arguments for AD being better than LeBron in the PS and specifically in the Finals but I am not seeing it. LeBron still seems to be the engine on the floor and his defense has been incredible.

That being said, AD still has easily been the 2nd best player in the PS, or maybe even 1b to LeBron's 1a - although it's difficult to parse out how much of his offensive impact is reliant on LeBron and Rondo feeding him the ball in the right spots (a limitation which is an issue for most bigs bTW).

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron has all but locked himself into the #1 spot for me this year unless the Lakers go on to lose the series and he scores 0 points in every game. His combination of offensive + defense in these playoffs has been amazing . He had a bad game and a half in the Finals but other than that over the entire RS + PS there is no one else I rather have for this season. Easy choice.

I view Davis and James as neck and neck in playoffs, but LeBron was much better in regular season. It's another POTY James season

I have read the arguments for AD being better than LeBron in the PS and specifically in the Finals but I am not seeing it. LeBron still seems to be the engine on the floor and his defense has been incredible.

That being said, AD still has easily been the 2nd best player in the PS, or maybe even 1b to LeBron's 1a - although it's difficult to parse out how much of his offensive impact is reliant on LeBron and Rondo feeding him the ball in the right spots (a limitation which is an issue for most bigs bTW).

In general what I'm seeing is that AD seems to have a higher ceiling and a lower floor, which fits with how things were in NO.

Basically, because he's not the perimeter guy with the ball in his hands, his effectiveness is more dependent on court context. When the offense becomes a clogged toilet, you want LeBron to be the plumber. Once things are flowing, AD becomes unstoppable.

What all that means to me is that it's very possible for AD to be the more valuable player over any particular stretch of games, but it's never the case that he's simply better than LeBron across the board, and he depends on LeBron more than LeBron would ever depend on any teammate.

I do think at this point LeBron has the edge in Finals MVP voting, but would have no problem voting for AD there if a couple things shifted toward him.

From a POY perspective though, it's still hard for me to imagine not putting LeBron at #1 right now. It would take something really extreme.

[Doctor MJ]

btw folks, Jimmy Butler is back in Top 5 consideration for me. If I voted right now he still wouldn't quite make it, but the Heat have made it a competitive series here on the back of Butler and this is after Butler was clearly the guy who broke Milwaukee and was the leader and star of the Heat all season.

What this means is that I'm basically looking at 7 guys right now for those 5 spots:

LeBron, AD, Jokic, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Butler.

Whatever happens with Butler, it's unlikely that Harden gets above the other 5, but I'll continue to consider.

[HeartBreakKid]

It's a myth that Gobert can't guard in space....he has never struggled in an playoff series except against GSW where he was basically guarding Steph Curry on an island.

He is pretty easily better than Giannis and Davis on defense. I don't know what Draymond Green has to do with anything, but he is better than them also.

The best big defender on the perimeter is Ben Simmons followed by Bam.

The Lakers and the Bucks have a lot of great defenders, pretty much all their roleplayers specialize in that with a few exceptions here and there. Too often the top rated defenses best player gets credit as the best defender - KG was on a mediocre defensive team for most of his career and everyone knew that he was a great defender.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I view Davis and James as neck and neck in playoffs, but LeBron was much better in regular season. It's another POTY James season

I have read the arguments for AD being better than LeBron in the PS and specifically in the Finals but I am not seeing it. LeBron still seems to be the engine on the floor and his defense has been incredible.

That being said, AD still has easily been the 2nd best player in the PS, or maybe even 1b to LeBron's 1a - although it's difficult to parse out how much of his offensive impact is reliant on LeBron and Rondo feeding him the ball in the right spots (a limitation which is an issue for most bigs bTW).

In general what I'm seeing is that AD seems to have a higher ceiling and a lower floor, which fits with how things were in NO.

Basically, because he's not the perimeter guy with the ball in his hands, his effectiveness is more dependent on court context. When the offense becomes a clogged toilet, you want LeBron to be the plumber. Once things are flowing, AD becomes unstoppable.

What all that means to me is that it's very possible for AD to be the more valuable player over any particular stretch of games, but it's never the case that he's simply better than LeBron across the board, and he depends on LeBron more than LeBron would ever depend on any teammate.

I do think at this point LeBron has the edge in Finals MVP voting, but would have no problem voting for AD there if a couple things shifted toward him.

From a POY perspective though, it's still hard for me to imagine not putting LeBron at #1 right now. It would take something really extreme.

I agree to an extent but at least during this run i feel the he relies on bron narrative is overstated

I def have Bron at #1 but AD prior to the heat series where zone has made him rightfully take a more off ball role (and i think g4 he said he wasnt gonna try to create for himself)

Was pretty much scoring a lower proportion of his halfcourt buckets through cuts and the pick and roll than even the bigs of the 2000s. This is also the first series theyve started using the bron and AD pick and roll too

Agree on the plumber thing but i think throughout the run thereve definately been times ADs done better just through shot making. I think best day bron is still better though

[Joey Wheeler]

LeBron has all but locked himself into the #1 spot for me this year unless the Lakers go on to lose the series and he scores 0 points in every game. His combination of offensive + defense in these playoffs has been amazing . He had a bad game and a half in the Finals but other than that over the entire RS + PS there is no one else I rather have for this season. Easy choice.

I view Davis and James as neck and neck in playoffs, but LeBron was much better in regular season. It's another POTY James season

I have read the arguments for AD being better than LeBron in the PS and specifically in the Finals but I am not seeing it. LeBron still seems to be the engine on the floor and his defense has been incredible.

That being said, AD still has easily been the 2nd best player in the PS, or maybe even 1b to LeBron's 1a - although it's difficult to parse out how much of his offensive impact is reliant on LeBron and Rondo feeding him the ball in the right spots (a limitation which is an issue for most bigs bTW).

Lebron is the engine of the offense indeed, so what? Since when do you expect the center of the team to be the offensive engine?

AD is the best defensive player in the league, he's the "engine" on that end in the sense that he's the one who allows the Lakers to do everything they do on defense. Even something like having Howard on the floor to rough up Jokic is only possible because AD is on the floor. .

Yes, on offense Lebron is the "engine" and the better player but there's two ends of the floors and the Lakers are actually stronger on defense than on offense.

[Heej]

I disagree with the take that AD has been more impactful. We saw what happened when the Heat played a real defense fronting and doubling on post touches as opposed to gimmick defenses like zone and switching every single action. LeBron has been by far the more impactful and controlling player once the Heat upshifted into their ultimate scheme/adjustments. He's been the ones creating a ton of open looks for role players, especially high value ones from 3. If Danny Green was hitting at even a reasonable clip Lebron would be averaging nearly a 30 point triple double due to the associated cascading effects.

The Heat focusing their defense on stopping entry passes and doubling Davis on the post shows the impact he's having as the biggest mismatch on the court. Lebron is getting his numbers for sure, but honestly doesn't feel like he's disrupting the Heat defense to a great degree. He's still better offensively overall with his playmaking of course.

But then there's defense, AD has been historic on that end; Lebron has been good but the difference overall has still been massive + AD guarding Butler has basically sealed the series. Honestly don't see how you make an argument for Lebron in this series unless you completely ignore defense; Lebron's offense has been great, but not close to the dominating presence he often is.

Again, I disagree. LeBron shredded their switching defense and now every time they set a screen for him the Heat are straining their defense out 25 feet from the basket on their HARD show and recovers. He's stressing their defense like crazy and getting to the free throw line on them and collapsing the Heat.

Also re: Gobert, he was also being pushed to his limits by Murray-Jokic PNR forcing him to defend in space and let's not forget the infamous "doggy-style defense" the Jazz had to uncork vs the Rockets because Gobert couldn't be trusted to handle him in space either. Hardens numbers may have sent down in the series but they were getting the looks they wanted all series long vs the Jazz defense.

So let's not act like Golden State is the one team that has been an issue for Gobert. The same problems would resurface if they played the Blazers with Dame and CJ, and he'd be exposed even worse against the Mavs and a Doncic-Porzingis PNR. Truthfully, I don't think I've seen a more overrated playoff defender than Rudy Gobert. I'm telling you man, the metagame of the playoffs is so markedly removed from the regular season that it's almost becoming fair to start calling them 2 completely different games at this point. The divergence is unreal and it may only get more stark as the league evolves.

[HeartBreakKid]

Murray-Jokic PNR gave a lot of problems for Davis also, and would for anyone. Gobert defended against the PNR perfectly fine once Mike Conley came back, and he was a better defender against Jokic in man to man.

There is no pretending. Gobert's defensive impact is felt in nearly every series. The whole he can't guard the PNR has not true, at least no worse than any other legitimate big.

[Joey Wheeler]

Nobody (other than Warriors who dominated everybody) exploited Gobert's defense. He dominated against Houston in 2019 series, despite Rockets being the worst possible matchup for him.

Gobert is an amazing rim protector, but he's not a great defender in space. In the current NBA metagame, you want someone who can protect the rim but can also switch on anyone and cover a lot of ground defensively. The best defensive player in the NBA is Davis, 2nd is Embiid. Whoever is 3rd, it's a distant third, Davis and Embiid are honestly the only guys I'd trust to anchor a defensive-minded title contender.

Gobert would have been incredible playing in the 90s, but right now his relative lack of mobility is just exploitable, you have to make too many compromises defensively as a team to avoid him getting cooked by the Currys and Hardens of the world in the perimeter.

Gobert is better against spread P&Rs than Embiid. Well, he's better than Embiid at everything but post defense probably. Gobert isn't slow or immobile, he can guard space just fine and he's much smarter with that than Embiid, who isn't good P&R defender at all.

Watch on YouTube

All of this might be true in the RS, but the playoffs are just a different game. Gobert just can't affect the game on defense the way Embiid did last year against the Raptors for instance.

He can guard space "just fine", you say? This is not enough, I'm afraid. Compare the space Gobert can cover with AD's, it's not even a competition, AD feels like he's everywhere on the court, Gobert not so much.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Murray-Jokic PNR gave a lot of problems for Davis also, and would for anyone. Gobert defended against the PNR perfectly fine once Mike Conley came back, and he was a better defender against Jokic in man to man.

There is no pretending. Gobert's defensive impact is felt in nearly every series. The whole he can't guard the PNR has not true, at least no worse than any other legitimate big.

Wait jokic absolutely torched gobert lmao, way more than he did AD

I feel AD handled the murray and gobert pick and roll fine, i didnt watch the jazz series closely enough but jokic definately attacked gobert much more than he did AD

[70sFan]

Gobert is an amazing rim protector, but he's not a great defender in space. In the current NBA metagame, you want someone who can protect the rim but can also switch on anyone and cover a lot of ground defensively. The best defensive player in the NBA is Davis, 2nd is Embiid. Whoever is 3rd, it's a distant third, Davis and Embiid are honestly the only guys I'd trust to anchor a defensive-minded title contender.

Gobert would have been incredible playing in the 90s, but right now his relative lack of mobility is just exploitable, you have to make too many compromises defensively as a team to avoid him getting cooked by the Currys and Hardens of the world in the perimeter.

Gobert is better against spread P&Rs than Embiid. Well, he's better than Embiid at everything but post defense probably. Gobert isn't slow or immobile, he can guard space just fine and he's much smarter with that than Embiid, who isn't good P&R defender at all.

Watch on YouTube

All of this might be true in the RS, but the playoffs are just a different game. Gobert just can't affect the game on defense the way Embiid did last year against the Raptors for instance.

He can guard space "just fine", you say? This is not enough, I'm afraid. Compare the space Gobert can cover with AD's, it's not even a competition, AD feels like he's everywhere on the court, Gobert not so much.

Show me a series when Gobert's defense was exposed and no, 2017 Warriors GOAT offense doesn't count. He did just fine against Murray/Jokic P&R, the same action that made Lakers (and Davis) so much troubles. His rim protection and smart rotations shut down Houston offense in 2019.

I already pointed it out - Utah were always very strong defensively in 2017-20 playoffs. Their offense sucked and that's why they lost, often badly, but it has nothing to do with Gobert's defense.

Embiid had much better supporting cast defensively in 2019 than Gobert ever had - Butler and Simmons are real all-defensive team players. Gobert has to play with non-defense Mitchell on perimeter.

[70sFan]

Murray-Jokic PNR gave a lot of problems for Davis also, and would for anyone. Gobert defended against the PNR perfectly fine once Mike Conley came back, and he was a better defender against Jokic in man to man.

There is no pretending. Gobert's defensive impact is felt in nearly every series. The whole he can't guard the PNR has not true, at least no worse than any other legitimate big.

Wait jokic absolutely torched gobert lmao, way more than he did AD

I feel AD handled the murray and gobert pick and roll fine, i didnt watch the jazz series closely enough but jokic definately attacked gobert much more than he did AD

No he didn't, he was forced to take contested shots and felt uncomfortable inside. Just watch game 7 - one of Jokic's finest performances this year - and look how well Gobert defended him.

The truth is that Davis didn't guard Jokic for 90% of the series, while Gobert had to play him straight all series long. Huge difference in roles.

[HeartBreakKid]

Murray-Jokic PNR gave a lot of problems for Davis also, and would for anyone. Gobert defended against the PNR perfectly fine once Mike Conley came back, and he was a better defender against Jokic in man to man.

There is no pretending. Gobert's defensive impact is felt in nearly every series. The whole he can't guard the PNR has not true, at least no worse than any other legitimate big.

Wait jokic absolutely torched gobert lmao, way more than he did AD

I feel AD handled the murray and gobert pick and roll fine, i didnt watch the jazz series closely enough but jokic definately attacked gobert much more than he did AD

I feel like you don't pay attention to defensive match ups.

Anthony Davis barely guarded Nikola Jokic, and when he did - he could not guard him. Jokic pretty much had his way with Davis in the post (or maybe I am remembering Jokic highlights too well, regardless Davis barely affected Nikola that series). Jokic struggled against Dwight Howard, not Anthony Davis.

Anthony Davis was hidden on Grant.

I mean your sentence is so wildly off and you say "lmao" - but the next paragraph you just said you didn't watch the series closely?

[limbo]

speak of the devil

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[Doctor MJ]

Murray-Jokic PNR gave a lot of problems for Davis also, and would for anyone. Gobert defended against the PNR perfectly fine once Mike Conley came back, and he was a better defender against Jokic in man to man.

There is no pretending. Gobert's defensive impact is felt in nearly every series. The whole he can't guard the PNR has not true, at least no worse than any other legitimate big.

Wait jokic absolutely torched gobert lmao, way more than he did AD

I feel AD handled the murray and gobert pick and roll fine, i didnt watch the jazz series closely enough but jokic definately attacked gobert much more than he did AD

No he didn't, he was forced to take contested shots and felt uncomfortable inside. Just watch game 7 - one of Jokic's finest performances this year - and look how well Gobert defended him.

The truth is that Davis didn't guard Jokic for 90% of the series, while Gobert had to play him straight all series long. Huge difference in roles.

Great point. Question for you though:

Does it bother you that Denver completely torched Gobert's Jazz in a way they didn't against their other playoff opponents?

I understand it's a team game and Murray going nut was central to all of this, but still it's hard for me to look at that series and think "Wow, Gobert was really effective on defense."