Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

[Gregoire]

I kind of feel like we need more distance to evaluate Lebron properly. Are we sure that we're not watching his peak right now? He's still very close to being the same level athlete from his Miami days. He just doesn't put it fifth gear as often.

Part of it is the game has changed in ways that make things easier for Lebron than 5 years ago. There are few true rim protectors left. He has so much more room to operate with increased pace and space. His BBIQ is at an all time high. So even if he's maybe not quite the same guy his overall effectiveness has gone up. He's even trying more on defense than we've seen in years.

The way I thought about MJ and Shaq changed a little as time passed. It'll be interesting to look back on this in 5-10 years. This thread will probably still be going lol.

How do you rank them today?

[VanWest82]

I kind of feel like we need more distance to evaluate Lebron properly. Are we sure that we're not watching his peak right now? He's still very close to being the same level athlete from his Miami days. He just doesn't put it fifth gear as often.

Part of it is the game has changed in ways that make things easier for Lebron than 5 years ago. There are few true rim protectors left. He has so much more room to operate with increased pace and space. His BBIQ is at an all time high. So even if he's maybe not quite the same guy his overall effectiveness has gone up. He's even trying more on defense than we've seen in years.

The way I thought about MJ and Shaq changed a little as time passed. It'll be interesting to look back on this in 5-10 years. This thread will probably still be going lol.

How do you rank them today?

92 MJ > 13 Lebron
18 Lebron = 96 MJ
20 Lebron > 98 MJ (though I need to let this simmer for a bit, it's not quite done yet)
00 Shaq > 94 Dream

Like all bigs, Shaq and Dream needed guys to get them the ball so they're a notch below.

[Gregoire]

I kind of feel like we need more distance to evaluate Lebron properly. Are we sure that we're not watching his peak right now? He's still very close to being the same level athlete from his Miami days. He just doesn't put it fifth gear as often.

Part of it is the game has changed in ways that make things easier for Lebron than 5 years ago. There are few true rim protectors left. He has so much more room to operate with increased pace and space. His BBIQ is at an all time high. So even if he's maybe not quite the same guy his overall effectiveness has gone up. He's even trying more on defense than we've seen in years.

The way I thought about MJ and Shaq changed a little as time passed. It'll be interesting to look back on this in 5-10 years. This thread will probably still be going lol.

How do you rank them today?

92 MJ > 13 Lebron
18 Lebron = 96 MJ
20 Lebron > 98 MJ (though I need to let this simmer for a bit, it's not quite done yet)
00 Shaq > 94 Dream

Like all bigs, Shaq and Dream needed guys to get them the ball so they're a notch below.

So, basically:
MJ
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem

You seems to value perimeter players more than bigmen.

[No-more-rings]

How are 7 year old threads allowed to be bumped like this? Start a new one.

OP referred me to the thread, but I don't understand this position. Why not keep all of the posts on this particular topic collated in a single lasting thread?

I think because a lot has changed in 7 years, and many of the responses are outdated. That's just my take though but that's up to mods to determine, i personally think it's sort of sloppy to continuously bump a thread every year that Lebron has a new season but again not my decision.

[rand]

Absolutely great post, man!!! Thanks! Its interesting you take Lebron's 2017 year as peak... Usually people take 2013 or 2012...
Also very good point about Shaq"s effect with great perimeter player. But Lebron or MJ could be paired with elite center (like Hakeem, Russell, Robinson ect), maybe in this case their impact would outmatch Shaq:s too.

Thanks!

You're right, in an all-time format there are other centers who even if they aren't equal to peak Shaq can at least match-up with him and get a lot back at the other end. Hakeem of course comes to mind. In an all-time format Shaq's not quite a trump card, but all-time teams completely warp all basketball physics because of the level of talent everywhere. In the live NBA, great perimeter initiators are several times more common than elite centers. If you had prime MJ, you'd have the best player in the league but there would still be a half dozen truly great perimeter initiators: LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic, Durant (if he comes back at 90% 2019) and then a sea of really good perimeter initiators. Jokic is the only candidate for a historically elite center right now and while I think he has the talent he still doesn't really qualify yet.

If there was a lottery for next season to add peak MJ or peak Shaq to your team, if I was running any of the 24 teams that don't have LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic or Durant, I'd take Jordan, but if I was running the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Rockets or Nets, I'd take Shaq. There is no currently active center who wouldn't be BBQ chicken. Embiid is the only player with the combination of size and athleticism to even put up a fight. Playing next to a great perimeter player who can set the table for him like Kobe during the 3peat, I bet he'd average 36-40 high efficiency PPG and 15-20 RPG in a Finals against any current team.

It's between 2017 and 2018 for LeBron's peak in my book. I think this can be roughly measured by his stats against the Warriors in 2016-2018. Statistically he was clearly better in the 2017 and 2018 Finals and the Warriors were a better team. 2018 had his peak game, that ridiculous 2018 Game 1, but I give the nod to 2017 because he managed to take a game off arguably the greatest team of all-time. He reached a new level offensively in his 2nd Cavs stint after 2015. In Games 1-3 of the 2013 Finals, LeBron averaged 16.7 points (.441 ts) and 7.3 assists. Can't imagine 2017 or 2018 LeBron. being shut down like that by any team. LeBron did bring more defensive energy in Miami, which was probably a product of both his youthful energy and Miami's concentration on defense.

[Gregoire]

Absolutely great post, man!!! Thanks! Its interesting you take Lebron's 2017 year as peak... Usually people take 2013 or 2012...
Also very good point about Shaq"s effect with great perimeter player. But Lebron or MJ could be paired with elite center (like Hakeem, Russell, Robinson ect), maybe in this case their impact would outmatch Shaq:s too.

Thanks!

You're right, in an all-time format there are other centers who even if they aren't equal to peak Shaq can at least match-up with him and get a lot back at the other end. Hakeem of course comes to mind. In an all-time format Shaq's not quite a trump card, but all-time teams completely warp all basketball physics because of the level of talent everywhere. In the live NBA, great perimeter initiators are several times more common than elite centers. If you had prime MJ, you'd have the best player in the league but there would still be a half dozen truly great perimeter initiators: LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic, Durant (if he comes back at 90% 2019) and then a sea of really good perimeter initiators. Jokic is the only candidate for a historically elite center right now and while I think he has the talent he still doesn't really qualify yet.

If there was a lottery for next season to add peak MJ or peak Shaq to your team, if I was running any of the 24 teams that don't have LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic or Durant, I'd take Jordan, but if I was running the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Rockets or Nets, I'd take Shaq. There is no currently active center who wouldn't be BBQ chicken. Embiid is the only player with the combination of size and athleticism to even put up a fight. Playing next to a great perimeter player who can set the table for him like Kobe during the 3peat, I bet he'd average 36-40 high efficiency PPG and 15-20 RPG in a Finals against any current team.

It's between 2017 and 2018 for LeBron's peak in my book. I think this can be roughly measured by his stats against the Warriors in 2016-2018. Statistically he was clearly better in the 2017 and 2018 Finals and the Warriors were a better team. 2018 had his peak game, that ridiculous 2018 Game 1, but I give the nod to 2017 because he managed to take a game off arguably the greatest team of all-time. He reached a new level offensively in his 2nd Cavs stint after 2015. In Games 1-3 of the 2013 Finals, LeBron averaged 16.7 points (.441 ts) and 7.3 assists. Can't imagine 2017 or 2018 LeBron. being shut down like that by any team. LeBron did bring more defensive energy in Miami, which was probably a product of both his youthful energy and Miami's concentration on defense.

Excellent post! Very interesting and nuanced analysis!
So, If I understood rightly,
If we take average NBA team pool - peak Lebron (or MJ) is better than peak Shaq,
if we take pool of teams with great offensive initiators - Shaq is better
if we take complex pool of teams with great initiators (more common) AND great centers (less common) - Lebron with great center is better than Shaq with initiator?

Question: if we take pool of teams with great initiators + very strong caliber teams WITHOUT great center or initiator (but equally strong teams, just more balanced, like Lakers 2020 with Davis, who is very good, just ton great center) - which team is likely stronger: initiator + Shaq or balanced (or with Davis)+ Lebron (MJ)?

[OdomFan]

Jordan - Elite on both ends, consistently bringing it as a leader should, and as athletically gift as it gets to match.
Hakeem - Has an argument for most talented Big of all time. Amazing foot work on offense, great shooting ability, elite defender, one of the greatest shot blockers.
Shaq - What can I say? His defense wasn't as consistent, but he had the size to always bother everyone he guarded. HIs offense speaks for itself. The man was a Monster plain and simple.
Lebron - elite player on both ends.

[rand]

Absolutely great post, man!!! Thanks! Its interesting you take Lebron's 2017 year as peak... Usually people take 2013 or 2012...
Also very good point about Shaq"s effect with great perimeter player. But Lebron or MJ could be paired with elite center (like Hakeem, Russell, Robinson ect), maybe in this case their impact would outmatch Shaq:s too.

Thanks!

You're right, in an all-time format there are other centers who even if they aren't equal to peak Shaq can at least match-up with him and get a lot back at the other end. Hakeem of course comes to mind. In an all-time format Shaq's not quite a trump card, but all-time teams completely warp all basketball physics because of the level of talent everywhere. In the live NBA, great perimeter initiators are several times more common than elite centers. If you had prime MJ, you'd have the best player in the league but there would still be a half dozen truly great perimeter initiators: LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic, Durant (if he comes back at 90% 2019) and then a sea of really good perimeter initiators. Jokic is the only candidate for a historically elite center right now and while I think he has the talent he still doesn't really qualify yet.

If there was a lottery for next season to add peak MJ or peak Shaq to your team, if I was running any of the 24 teams that don't have LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic or Durant, I'd take Jordan, but if I was running the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Rockets or Nets, I'd take Shaq. There is no currently active center who wouldn't be BBQ chicken. Embiid is the only player with the combination of size and athleticism to even put up a fight. Playing next to a great perimeter player who can set the table for him like Kobe during the 3peat, I bet he'd average 36-40 high efficiency PPG and 15-20 RPG in a Finals against any current team.

It's between 2017 and 2018 for LeBron's peak in my book. I think this can be roughly measured by his stats against the Warriors in 2016-2018. Statistically he was clearly better in the 2017 and 2018 Finals and the Warriors were a better team. 2018 had his peak game, that ridiculous 2018 Game 1, but I give the nod to 2017 because he managed to take a game off arguably the greatest team of all-time. He reached a new level offensively in his 2nd Cavs stint after 2015. In Games 1-3 of the 2013 Finals, LeBron averaged 16.7 points (.441 ts) and 7.3 assists. Can't imagine 2017 or 2018 LeBron. being shut down like that by any team. LeBron did bring more defensive energy in Miami, which was probably a product of both his youthful energy and Miami's concentration on defense.

Excellent post! Very interesting and nuanced analysis!
So, If I understood rightly,
If we take average NBA team pool - peak Lebron (or MJ) is better than peak Shaq,
if we take pool of teams with great offensive initiators - Shaq is better
if we take complex pool of teams with great initiators (more common) AND great centers (less common) - Lebron with great center is better than Shaq with initiator?

Question: if we take pool of teams with great initiators + very strong caliber teams WITHOUT great center or initiator (but equally strong teams, just more balanced, like Lakers 2020 with Davis, who is very good, just ton great center) - which team is likely stronger: initiator + Shaq or balanced (or with Davis)+ Lebron (MJ)?

Yeah, I'd take 2000 Shaq + 2002 Kobe over peak LeBron + 2020 AD, and also take Shaq/Kobe over say LeBron + the 2011 Mavs - Dirk. But of course my theory that Shaq + elite perimeter initiator = GOAT paradigm is just a guideline. In any actual match-up of 5 man units, the precise identity of every player will be influential. The players on the 3peat Lakers as well as the current Lakers aren't randoms. A Shaq/Kobe vs LeBron/AD match-up will be close enough that a modest imbalance in the other three guys could well be the difference.

[Gregoire]

Yeah, I'd take 2000 Shaq + 2002 Kobe over peak LeBron + 2020 AD, and also take Shaq/Kobe over say LeBron + the 2011 Mavs - Dirk. But of course my theory that Shaq + elite perimeter initiator = GOAT paradigm is just a guideline. In any actual match-up of 5 man units, the precise identity of every player will be influential. The players on the 3peat Lakers as well as the current Lakers aren't randoms. A Shaq/Kobe vs LeBron/AD match-up will be close enough that a modest imbalance in the other three guys could well be the difference.

So, in this case Lebron in your opinion is better "floor raiser", Shaq is better "ceiling raiser" (with offensive initiator) and Lebron is better "ceiling ceiling raiser" (with great center, which are rare animals)?

[rand]

Yeah, I'd take 2000 Shaq + 2002 Kobe over peak LeBron + 2020 AD, and also take Shaq/Kobe over say LeBron + the 2011 Mavs - Dirk. But of course my theory that Shaq + elite perimeter initiator = GOAT paradigm is just a guideline. In any actual match-up of 5 man units, the precise identity of every player will be influential. The players on the 3peat Lakers as well as the current Lakers aren't randoms. A Shaq/Kobe vs LeBron/AD match-up will be close enough that a modest imbalance in the other three guys could well be the difference.

So, in this case Lebron in your opinion is better "floor raiser", Shaq is better "ceiling raiser" (with offensive initiator) and Lebron is better "ceiling ceiling raiser" (with great center, which are rare animals)?

Yeah I'd say that's an accurate characterization. If it's Shaq + perimeter vs LeBron + center, it'll come down to exactly who the sidekicks are -- and if those are too close, it'll come down to who the role players are.

[Gregoire]

Yeah, I'd take 2000 Shaq + 2002 Kobe over peak LeBron + 2020 AD, and also take Shaq/Kobe over say LeBron + the 2011 Mavs - Dirk. But of course my theory that Shaq + elite perimeter initiator = GOAT paradigm is just a guideline. In any actual match-up of 5 man units, the precise identity of every player will be influential. The players on the 3peat Lakers as well as the current Lakers aren't randoms. A Shaq/Kobe vs LeBron/AD match-up will be close enough that a modest imbalance in the other three guys could well be the difference.

So, in this case Lebron in your opinion is better "floor raiser", Shaq is better "ceiling raiser" (with offensive initiator) and Lebron is better "ceiling ceiling raiser" (with great center, which are rare animals)?

Yeah I'd say that's an accurate characterization. If it's Shaq + perimeter vs LeBron + center, it'll come down to exactly who the sidekicks are -- and if those are too close, it'll come down to who the role players are.

Interesting theory, I understood! But in the case of initiator there are levels to this too, so maybe Lebron + Kobe is better than Shaq + Iverson or Carter?
And one more question: 1. I we have balanced team like 2011 Mavs, 2004 Pitsons, 1889 Pistons, Celtics 1986, 2014 Spurs ect who you take - Lebron or Shaq?

[Gregoire]

Yeah, I'd take 2000 Shaq + 2002 Kobe over peak LeBron + 2020 AD, and also take Shaq/Kobe over say LeBron + the 2011 Mavs - Dirk. But of course my theory that Shaq + elite perimeter initiator = GOAT paradigm is just a guideline. In any actual match-up of 5 man units, the precise identity of every player will be influential. The players on the 3peat Lakers as well as the current Lakers aren't randoms. A Shaq/Kobe vs LeBron/AD match-up will be close enough that a modest imbalance in the other three guys could well be the difference.

So, in this case Lebron in your opinion is better "floor raiser", Shaq is better "ceiling raiser" (with offensive initiator) and Lebron is better "ceiling ceiling raiser" (with great center, which are rare animals)?

Yeah I'd say that's an accurate characterization. If it's Shaq + perimeter vs LeBron + center, it'll come down to exactly who the sidekicks are -- and if those are too close, it'll come down to who the role players are.

BTW, after Finals ended, Im interested to hear especially your thoughts about this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2005932

[Mos_Heat]

Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem

[Gregoire]

Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem

Great list, but why Lebron above Shaq?

[Mos_Heat]

Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem

Great list, but why Lebron above Shaq?

If we are talking about "peak in a vacuum" and not looking how dominant player was at his peak, then I would take Lebron over Shaq. As you said in the OP Shaq's P'n'R defense is a concern, and it's more concerning than it was seven years ago. I also think you need a proper amount of shooting for Shaq to be trully dominant against modern defenses.

I know there is recency bias in this analysis, but that's how I see it.

[Gregoire]

Yeah, I'd take 2000 Shaq + 2002 Kobe over peak LeBron + 2020 AD, and also take Shaq/Kobe over say LeBron + the 2011 Mavs - Dirk. But of course my theory that Shaq + elite perimeter initiator = GOAT paradigm is just a guideline. In any actual match-up of 5 man units, the precise identity of every player will be influential. The players on the 3peat Lakers as well as the current Lakers aren't randoms. A Shaq/Kobe vs LeBron/AD match-up will be close enough that a modest imbalance in the other three guys could well be the difference.

So, in this case Lebron in your opinion is better "floor raiser", Shaq is better "ceiling raiser" (with offensive initiator) and Lebron is better "ceiling ceiling raiser" (with great center, which are rare animals)?

Yeah I'd say that's an accurate characterization. If it's Shaq + perimeter vs LeBron + center, it'll come down to exactly who the sidekicks are -- and if those are too close, it'll come down to who the role players are.

Sorry for reaching one more time, but I like your responses, could you give the answer in my another thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1274796

[rand]

So, in this case Lebron in your opinion is better "floor raiser", Shaq is better "ceiling raiser" (with offensive initiator) and Lebron is better "ceiling ceiling raiser" (with great center, which are rare animals)?

Yeah I'd say that's an accurate characterization. If it's Shaq + perimeter vs LeBron + center, it'll come down to exactly who the sidekicks are -- and if those are too close, it'll come down to who the role players are.

Sorry for reaching one more time, but I like your responses, could you give the answer in my another thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1274796

Not at all, I'm glad you're giving me the opportunity to contribute my opinion to interesting topics.

[Gregoire]

Absolutely great post, man!!! Thanks! Its interesting you take Lebron's 2017 year as peak... Usually people take 2013 or 2012...
Also very good point about Shaq"s effect with great perimeter player. But Lebron or MJ could be paired with elite center (like Hakeem, Russell, Robinson ect), maybe in this case their impact would outmatch Shaq:s too.

Thanks!

You're right, in an all-time format there are other centers who even if they aren't equal to peak Shaq can at least match-up with him and get a lot back at the other end. Hakeem of course comes to mind. In an all-time format Shaq's not quite a trump card, but all-time teams completely warp all basketball physics because of the level of talent everywhere. In the live NBA, great perimeter initiators are several times more common than elite centers. If you had prime MJ, you'd have the best player in the league but there would still be a half dozen truly great perimeter initiators: LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic, Durant (if he comes back at 90% 2019) and then a sea of really good perimeter initiators. Jokic is the only candidate for a historically elite center right now and while I think he has the talent he still doesn't really qualify yet.

If there was a lottery for next season to add peak MJ or peak Shaq to your team, if I was running any of the 24 teams that don't have LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Doncic or Durant, I'd take Jordan, but if I was running the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Rockets or Nets, I'd take Shaq. There is no currently active center who wouldn't be BBQ chicken. Embiid is the only player with the combination of size and athleticism to even put up a fight. Playing next to a great perimeter player who can set the table for him like Kobe during the 3peat, I bet he'd average 36-40 high efficiency PPG and 15-20 RPG in a Finals against any current team.

It's between 2017 and 2018 for LeBron's peak in my book. I think this can be roughly measured by his stats against the Warriors in 2016-2018. Statistically he was clearly better in the 2017 and 2018 Finals and the Warriors were a better team. 2018 had his peak game, that ridiculous 2018 Game 1, but I give the nod to 2017 because he managed to take a game off arguably the greatest team of all-time. He reached a new level offensively in his 2nd Cavs stint after 2015. In Games 1-3 of the 2013 Finals, LeBron averaged 16.7 points (.441 ts) and 7.3 assists. Can't imagine 2017 or 2018 LeBron. being shut down like that by any team. LeBron did bring more defensive energy in Miami, which was probably a product of both his youthful energy and Miami's concentration on defense.

Thanks you for your posts, I enjoy discussion with you! BTW, here,
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2008473&p=85787406#p85787406 in post 87 there are counterpoints for your preference of bigs in championship teams. What do you think?

[Gregoire]

2021 edition:
MJ
Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem

[His Dudeness]

2021 edition:
MJ
Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem

This is probably my ranking as well. I can very easily understand a case for having LeBron above Shaq, but that honestly feels more like an argument for Lebron's prime being greater than Shaq's, as opposed to the absolute peak. I could also be persuaded to move Shaq above Jordan. His 2000 campaign is truly monstrous and is without question in discussion for most impactful single season.