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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

The Chosen one
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1261 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 5:08 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Unless the Bulls wheel and deal on draft night to trade down and to open a logical roster spot for Toppin, he makes no sense for the Bulls. Nor is he the type of obvious “BPA” guy you just draft no matter what.

Toppin has game! He can honestly go top 3. There’s mention of Charlotte being interested. I know Toppin plays Lauri position but who knows if Lauri is going to be here long term? All the top prospects play a position that the bulls have young talent at. Wiseman plays Carter position, Edwards plays Lavine position, Ball,Haliburton and Hayes play Coby position. Deni plays Porter position. I don’t really see any rookie drafted this year starting over any of the bulls projected starters of Coby Lavine Porter Lauri Carter.


Rumors of Toppin's draft value fluctuates. First the Warriors were a lock to take him early in the process, now it's the Hornets.
Toppin does not fit the needs of the Hornets. They already have a glut of 6-6 to 6-7 PF's in Bridges(granted Bridges plays SF too) and Washington.
They need rim protection and size. Wiseman is the perfect fit for what they need.

I’m hearing anywhere from 2-8. Toppin is a legit 6’9 though and would be better than anybody they have. Pj Washington does have game though. I agree with you. Wiseman or Okongwu would fit better. They might even take Ball if he falls to them.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1262 » by Andi Obst » Thu Oct 8, 2020 5:34 pm

The Chosen one wrote:I’ve watched a lot Hayes last season but wasn’t that impressed with him. For a point guard he was to turnover prone. He tries a lot of risky passes that are not there. I also saw some guards get into his space and speed him up. He had trouble turning the corner on guards that applied heavy ball pressure. His shot was kind’ve streaky especially from the 3 point range. He’s a very good passer though and has range on his floaters when driving to the basket. He wouldn’t be my pick if I’m the bulls. I’m not the biggest Lamelo fan but he is superior to Hayes as a point guard imo.


A couple of things:

1. Agreed, he had too many turnovers.

2. Don't agree with the too many risky passes parts. To me, one of the most important aspects of evaluating lead guard prospects is whether the guy makes advanced reads or not. Hayes could've easily had less turnovers if he always played the simple pass, but he's got the ability to make the more difficult, but way better pass. It's not consistently there yet, but he's definitely shown elite passing flashes and that what's more important IMO.

3. Let's not forget he was an 18-year-old lead ball handler for a solid team in a pro league.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1263 » by HoopsterJones » Thu Oct 8, 2020 7:01 pm

This draft has some major question marks about it. There isn’t a Zion, Luka, Ayton level of hype around a prospect. Heck not even a Morant or Trae Young level either. I’d be down for a trade back if the Bulls can pick up future draft capital. Don’t know if any team is willing to move up to 4 and give up good compensation in return.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1264 » by Pax for Prez » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:27 pm

Lack Of Consensus On Prospects Could Shake Up Draft

Different teams having differing opinions on certain draft prospects is hardly breaking news, but the lack of a consensus among clubs in their assessments of this year’s class seems more extreme than usual. Replying to Wasserman’s initial tweet, Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer observed that it’s amazing how “all over the place” people around the NBA are on this year’s draft.

“It’s all over the map, this draft,” one team executive told Darren Wolfson of 5 Eyewitness News (Twitter link). “Seems everyone is thinking different and everyone is in trade mode.”

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/10/lack-of-consensus-on-prospects-could-shake-up-draft.html
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1265 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 10:52 pm

Pax for Prez wrote:Lack Of Consensus On Prospects Could Shake Up Draft

Different teams having differing opinions on certain draft prospects is hardly breaking news, but the lack of a consensus among clubs in their assessments of this year’s class seems more extreme than usual. Replying to Wasserman’s initial tweet, Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer observed that it’s amazing how “all over the place” people around the NBA are on this year’s draft.

“It’s all over the map, this draft,” one team executive told Darren Wolfson of 5 Eyewitness News (Twitter link). “Seems everyone is thinking different and everyone is in trade mode.”

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/10/lack-of-consensus-on-prospects-could-shake-up-draft.html


It's not really amazing. There is no "group think" this year, similar to the NFL draft and what we just saw from the NHl draft as well.
Scouts couldn't get together and analyze and comes to a conclusion based on what their friends in the scouting community were saying.
Now you have to form your own opinion and it becomes scattered.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1266 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 10:59 pm

The Chosen one wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:Toppin has game! He can honestly go top 3. There’s mention of Charlotte being interested. I know Toppin plays Lauri position but who knows if Lauri is going to be here long term? All the top prospects play a position that the bulls have young talent at. Wiseman plays Carter position, Edwards plays Lavine position, Ball,Haliburton and Hayes play Coby position. Deni plays Porter position. I don’t really see any rookie drafted this year starting over any of the bulls projected starters of Coby Lavine Porter Lauri Carter.


Rumors of Toppin's draft value fluctuates. First the Warriors were a lock to take him early in the process, now it's the Hornets.
Toppin does not fit the needs of the Hornets. They already have a glut of 6-6 to 6-7 PF's in Bridges(granted Bridges plays SF too) and Washington.
They need rim protection and size. Wiseman is the perfect fit for what they need.

I’m hearing anywhere from 2-8. Toppin is a legit 6’9 though and would be better than anybody they have. Pj Washington does have game though. I agree with you. Wiseman or Okongwu would fit better. They might even take Ball if he falls to them.


But again, roster construction has always been an issue for Charlotte. They almost always take a PF or C and it bites them in the ass later one.
They lack balance and then end up taking a partially better player than they already had which creates a glut and you still end up with holes that you can't fix because your player development isn't great and you keep taking bigs.

At some point, BPA has to fit the positional need.

Toppin does them 0 good with Rozier and Graham. That mean you stick start Zeller and place Bridges on the bench or you trot out a Toppin, Washington, Bridges, Graham, Rozier lineup and that will be a nightmarish hell defensively speaking.
If Charlotte is trying to build a legit team that will eventually contend, they have to start constructing their roster better and unless they're trading Bridges...Toppin is not an option.

Wiseman gives you a defensive anchor with size and the potential to give you 20-10 in the future. That would off-set any potential size issues with Washington and Bridges in the starting line up and help improve the team defense so that Graham and Rozier paired up won't hurt as much size wise either.

Toppin doesn't fit in with any of the top 4 teams in the draft positionally speaking since he doesn't play enough defense to impact that side and you are what you can defend in the NBA right now.

Cleveland you can make a case for since Love is getting older. Atlanta you can make a case for if they stupidly don't re-sign Collins, but they already have Capela so that fit isn't great.
Detroit, maybe, but you already have Griffin and Wood.
New York...they need everything. They were known to be interested in moving Randle during the trade deadline so nothing would stop them from taking Toppin. Though they need a PG more in theory.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1267 » by Pax for Prez » Fri Oct 9, 2020 3:48 am

HoopsterJones wrote:This draft has some major question marks about it. There isn’t a Zion, Luka, Ayton level of hype around a prospect. Heck not even a Morant or Trae Young level either. I’d be down for a trade back if the Bulls can pick up future draft capital. Don’t know if any team is willing to move up to 4 and give up good compensation in return.


Compensation for Top picks look to be less this year as confirmed in this article:

Don’t be surprised if you see a lot of draft-night trades, teams more than ever are willing to move down this year. However, because of that, they may not get as much for a high pick as they would in other years.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/10/08/one-thing-everyone-agrees-on-with-2020-nba-draft-nobody-agrees-on-anything/
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1268 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Oct 9, 2020 6:11 am

kodo wrote:Agreed. Lauri did a good job considering he's bigger than most centers at 7'. He was -0.4 DRPM which is basically neutral. A lot of the younger, big players around his size are worse on DRPM. Bagley is -1.24, Mo Bamba -1.8, Jaren Jackson Jr -2.9, Michael Porter Jr -3.13, KAT -3.6.

DRPM also thinks Nikola Jokic is the fifth-best defender in the league, and Duncan Robinson the tenth-best.

Like every defensive metric that's ever been created, it's as useful as tits on a bull.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1269 » by Southpaw » Fri Oct 9, 2020 7:39 am

Toppin going top 3 would be great for us because that will bump down a better prospect to us.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1270 » by cjbulls » Fri Oct 9, 2020 1:39 pm

I have been coming around on Okoro. I have more tolerance than most for poor/correctable shooting. Have their been any reports on his work ethic, good or bad?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1271 » by PhilLeotardo » Fri Oct 9, 2020 2:45 pm

Trade down & take Vassell & Poku. That’d be about the only way I’d consider this draft a success

This draft sucks. I’m already zeroed in on 2021. Sad but true. This is like the Simmons draft, except there isn’t an Ingram, let alone a Simmons in this draft.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1272 » by PlayerUp » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:34 pm

PhilLeotardo wrote:Trade down & take Vassell & Poku. That’d be about the only way I’d consider this draft a success

This draft sucks. I’m already zeroed in on 2021. Sad but true. This is like the Simmons draft, except there isn’t an Ingram, let alone a Simmons in this draft.


Would require 2 trades to do this and early reports are pretty much all teams are looking to trade so seems less likely than ever that the Bulls can trade down in this draft.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1273 » by The Chosen one » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:35 pm

Southpaw wrote:Toppin going top 3 would be great for us because that will bump down a better prospect to us.

Kindve feel that way about Hayes, I feel like he would be the worst case for the bulls to draft at 4. I watched him a lot last season and was very unimpressed.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1274 » by gobullschi » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:41 pm

Pax for Prez wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:This draft has some major question marks about it. There isn’t a Zion, Luka, Ayton level of hype around a prospect. Heck not even a Morant or Trae Young level either. I’d be down for a trade back if the Bulls can pick up future draft capital. Don’t know if any team is willing to move up to 4 and give up good compensation in return.


Compensation for Top picks look to be less this year as confirmed in this article:

Don’t be surprised if you see a lot of draft-night trades, teams more than ever are willing to move down this year. However, because of that, they may not get as much for a high pick as they would in other years.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/10/08/one-thing-everyone-agrees-on-with-2020-nba-draft-nobody-agrees-on-anything/


What would it cost for the Bulls to move up then?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1275 » by cjbulls » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:53 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Pax for Prez wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:This draft has some major question marks about it. There isn’t a Zion, Luka, Ayton level of hype around a prospect. Heck not even a Morant or Trae Young level either. I’d be down for a trade back if the Bulls can pick up future draft capital. Don’t know if any team is willing to move up to 4 and give up good compensation in return.


Compensation for Top picks look to be less this year as confirmed in this article:

Don’t be surprised if you see a lot of draft-night trades, teams more than ever are willing to move down this year. However, because of that, they may not get as much for a high pick as they would in other years.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/10/08/one-thing-everyone-agrees-on-with-2020-nba-draft-nobody-agrees-on-anything/


What would it cost for the Bulls to move up then?


Move up for who though? Not only does it seem like no player is truly move-up worthy, but it also appears any guy could fall to 4 anyways.

The price logically seems like next years 1st (top 4 protected) and #4 this year.

You may be able substitute next years #1 with either Lauri, Zach, WCJ, Coby or OPJ+bad contract.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1276 » by kodo » Fri Oct 9, 2020 6:09 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
kodo wrote:Agreed. Lauri did a good job considering he's bigger than most centers at 7'. He was -0.4 DRPM which is basically neutral. A lot of the younger, big players around his size are worse on DRPM. Bagley is -1.24, Mo Bamba -1.8, Jaren Jackson Jr -2.9, Michael Porter Jr -3.13, KAT -3.6.

DRPM also thinks Nikola Jokic is the fifth-best defender in the league, and Duncan Robinson the tenth-best.

Like every defensive metric that's ever been created, it's as useful as tits on a bull.


It also says the best defensive bigs are Gobert, Adebayo, and Giannis. Are these 3 bad defenders now?

Cherry picking 2 outliers doesn't invalidate the overall trend. And it's better than the typical "well he's a bad defender because I said so" that goes around this board.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1277 » by gobullschi » Fri Oct 9, 2020 6:12 pm

cjbulls wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Pax for Prez wrote:
Compensation for Top picks look to be less this year as confirmed in this article:

Don’t be surprised if you see a lot of draft-night trades, teams more than ever are willing to move down this year. However, because of that, they may not get as much for a high pick as they would in other years.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/10/08/one-thing-everyone-agrees-on-with-2020-nba-draft-nobody-agrees-on-anything/


What would it cost for the Bulls to move up then?


Move up for who though? Not only does it seem like no player is truly move-up worthy, but it also appears any guy could fall to 4 anyways.

The price logically seems like next years 1st (top 4 protected) and #4 this year.

You may be able substitute next years #1 with either Lauri, Zach, WCJ, Coby or OPJ+bad contract.


I thought compensation for top picks will be less this year?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1278 » by MrFortune3 » Fri Oct 9, 2020 6:28 pm

gobullschi wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
What would it cost for the Bulls to move up then?


Move up for who though? Not only does it seem like no player is truly move-up worthy, but it also appears any guy could fall to 4 anyways.

The price logically seems like next years 1st (top 4 protected) and #4 this year.

You may be able substitute next years #1 with either Lauri, Zach, WCJ, Coby or OPJ+bad contract.


I thought compensation for top picks will be less this year?


Compensation being lower and teams being willing to move down are two separate issues. Teams are more willing to move down, that doesn't mean the compensation will end up being less.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1279 » by gobullschi » Fri Oct 9, 2020 6:33 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Move up for who though? Not only does it seem like no player is truly move-up worthy, but it also appears any guy could fall to 4 anyways.

The price logically seems like next years 1st (top 4 protected) and #4 this year.

You may be able substitute next years #1 with either Lauri, Zach, WCJ, Coby or OPJ+bad contract.


I thought compensation for top picks will be less this year?


Compensation being lower and teams being willing to move down are two separate issues. Teams are more willing to move down, that doesn't mean the compensation will end up being less.


Agreed. @cjbulls said:
teams more than ever are willing to move down this year. However, because of that, they may not get as much for a high pick as they would in other years.


Hypothetically, IF the compensation IS less than other years, what are we talking here?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1280 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Oct 9, 2020 6:40 pm

kodo wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
kodo wrote:Agreed. Lauri did a good job considering he's bigger than most centers at 7'. He was -0.4 DRPM which is basically neutral. A lot of the younger, big players around his size are worse on DRPM. Bagley is -1.24, Mo Bamba -1.8, Jaren Jackson Jr -2.9, Michael Porter Jr -3.13, KAT -3.6.

DRPM also thinks Nikola Jokic is the fifth-best defender in the league, and Duncan Robinson the tenth-best.

Like every defensive metric that's ever been created, it's as useful as tits on a bull.


It also says the best defensive bigs are Gobert, Adebayo, and Giannis. Are these 3 bad defenders now?

Cherry picking 2 outliers doesn't invalidate the overall trend. And it's better than the typical "well he's a bad defender because I said so" that goes around this board.

They aren't outliers. Look at the entire list. Daniel Theis is supposedly the 2nd best defender in the league. LeBron 3rd when we know he doesn't give a crap about defense in the regular season. Isaac Bonga 6th. Brook Lopez is supposedly more valuable defensively than Giannis. Tobias Harris is supposedly Philly's most valuable defender. DJ Augustin is supposedly the 22nd best defender in the league. DJ GODDAMN AUGUSTIN!

This is all just in the goddamn top 25. It's a garbage stat. All defensive stats are.

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