2019-2020 College/Draft thread X [marks the spot] (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT)

[moocow007]

CBS latest mock has Hayes going to us... Okongwu is the wildcard here I think. I've seen how his stock is rising. Either way, I'm feeling positive about our draft position. Not sure I'd give up Mitch... YET

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-mock-draft-anthony-edwards-jumps-up-to-no-2-to-the-warriors-behind-no-1-pick-lamelo-ball/

Do you mean Okoro's stock is rising? Okongwu's always been in the top 6 on most boards so not sure that his stock is rising (definitely not in this mock since they have on the low end of 6) nor that he's a wildcard (most scouts are full aware of what he can do and what his potential upside is). Okongwu's usually slots in in the 3-6 range and has gone as high as 2 and as low as 7 in pretty much every mock. The wildcard in this particular mock is Okoro as Okoro has generally been in the 8-11 range on most mocks. Here, he's moved up to 7. And in general, the Pistons have always been the one team that Hayes fans have been worried about since the draft order was decided cause the Pistons have the same needs as the Knicks.

[mpharris36]

When it comes down to it, bigs with not much offensive skill especially if they can't hit jumpers will hurt you in the playoffs. The game is about versatility and if you can't help space the floor for your ball handlers then you become a liability

I think it depends if they are used as a rim runner and you can throw lobs to them they are valuable if they can also dominant on the defensive end.

Mitch is freakish enough where his roll game needs to be accounted for because he can literally jump higher than almost every big meaning you have to tag him on the roll or its an easy dunk. Its why he simply has such a high FG% because no one can defend his shots as he is higher at the rim then anyone.

For example Steven Adams is a roller to the basket but doesn't play above the rim so he's not really a threat. Mitch is a different type of threat.

But nobody cares about Mitch on offense. Mitch isn't carrying any team to any wins by just rolling to the basket. That play, when teams really want to, can be shut down easily. Teams know how to shut it down. What teams really struggle defending is the pick and pop and that's where bigs make a living nowadays. Especially if you can put the ball on the floor off a fake and make a play driving to the basket. Mitch himself struggles defending those guys, but he will look great against the Deandre Jordan's and Jarrett Allens of the league because they play just like him.

If you had a worthwhile person running the P&R that could pass and shoot they would absolutely have to worry about him. Our best offensive play this year was the lob to mitch. It was effective and effecient. So if we end up getting that star player that can make the right play in the P&R with shooters give mitch the lob lane that will be a very difficult play to stop.

Gobert avg 15 a game on nearly 70% from the field with very little offensive game other than rim running. If you have other good players and proper spacing that play is a threat. And Mitch is a better athlete than Gobert too.

[mpharris36]

I mean how many centers are great P&R pop bigs? Like I can count them on one hand (maybe 2) and almost all of them suck on defense. Outside of AD and that is probably why he is the best big in the league.

[moocow007]

Just wanted to inject that Wiseman is generally considered by most scouts as someone that can come in and immediately be an impact talent on defense. In case anyone is going to imply that he can't defend (or apparently do much of anything else).

[robillionaire]

I mean how many centers are great P&R pop bigs? Like I can count them on one hand (maybe 2) and almost all of them suck on defense. Outside of AD and that is probably why he is the best big in the league.

pretty much. we are letting perfect be the enemy of good. anthony davis isn't coming through that door fans and wiseman ain't him either

[2010]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

[NewYorkPride85]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

That is still pretty impressive numbers though. Especially given the circumstances. Just being able to score that much on dunks, with a percentage that nobody has ever matched in NBA history, with horrible spacing and bad PG play.

It's really not for those very reasons you mentioned. We shot a lot of bricks. A lot of his points came off that just like when Kanter was here and used to do the same. Kanter averaged 3.8 offensive boards in 26 MPG cleaning up our bricks. Robinson averaged 3.0 offensive boards and we were even worse shooting last year than with Kanter. There were so many bricks to benefit from. Robinson is a great athlete but he's not very skilled. He can definitely do some positive things on the court but I think getting carried away with his FG% is a bit foolish. We know what he does and what he doesn't do, there's no need to try to trick ourselves into thinking there's more to it.

It is not overthinking at all. Mitch missed playing organized ball for a year before he got drafted. He gets drafted to a team that made zero effort in developing him or any of our rookies. Mitch started off on the wrong foot from the get go. Those players that had some semblance of development actually played well when they first got to the Knicks and not too long into their stints here, their professional careers took a nose dive. There are those that have the maturity to develop themselves but you have to remember these are kids. How many of us were professionally mature in our late teens/early twenties? That is where leadership comes in. Knox had great development coaches at Kentucky which is why he did well (albeit not great) his rookie year and then fell off a cliff. DSJ was decent for us when he was first traded to us and then fell off a cliff. Same thing with Frank except that he was playing professionally going into draft night and then was thrown to the wolves his first year without letting his body rest which partially explains his situation. All of our recent picks were considered development project yet we never had any semblance of player development to begin with so they were all doomed to fail.
The fact we have Kenny Payne who is a great big man developer (given his professional acumen and the players he has developed already) is a boon for Mitch and Knox. More so for Knox since he still has to mature and Payne could probably be the only one to get him to focus and get right with his basketball career. Same thing applies to Frank (who was starting to show glimpses before the season was cut short) and DSJ who has talent but has lost all confidence and was in a really bad place after losing the woman who raised him. I would like to say that our new staff seem to care about our players outside of just basketball but I haven't seen enough to warrant me stating that as fact but if that truly is the case, then we can expect great things next year even if it doesn't reflect on our record.

[moocow007]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

Absolutely. And the Knicks would be absolute idiots to pass on Wiseman if by some miracle of god he's still available at 8. Drafting Wiseman doesn't mean they have to move Mitch, at least not right away. Nor does it preclude them from moving Wiseman, at some point. I'm really not getting some of these tit for tat arguments against taking Wiseman if he's around at 8. The Knicks aren't at a point...again...where they need to focus on fit. They are at the point where they need talent and assets. They can absolutely afford to taking Wiseman at 8 and have both him and Robinson on the roster. Wiseman not being able to shoot a 3 as a reason not to draft him? Dear lord guys...stop it, just stop it. The Knicks aren't the Warriors and they ain't going to be competing for a title any time soon. Their biggest need and weakness is the sheer and utter lack of talent and assets and the inability to create efficient offense...NOT 3 point shooting. That's what a guy like Ball (see talent and create offense should be at the top of their list even if he can't shoot 3's). Wiseman may not be able to create efficient offense for others (he can for himself most definitely) but he's top tier in the talent (asset value) category. One (Robinson) has nothing to do with the other (Wiseman) as far as the Knicks decision on whether to take him or not (again if by some miracle he's around) is concerned.

[NewYorkPride85]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

Like I said in a previous post. Wiseman's comp has always been Davis lite and Davis himself has stated he prefers playing the 4 than the 5. Its not impossible for both of them to be on the floor at the same time especially if Wiseman's jumper is as good as advertised. I would be through the moon if he was ended up getting him.

[mpharris36]

I mean how many centers are great P&R pop bigs? Like I can count them on one hand (maybe 2) and almost all of them suck on defense. Outside of AD and that is probably why he is the best big in the league.

pretty much. we are letting perfect be the enemy of good. anthony davis isn't coming through that door fans and wiseman ain't him either

this is basically how I see it. If those guys grew on trees every team would have a 2-way big that can shoot and defend at a high level.

KP was probably the closest thing to AD in terms of having the whole package but he gets exposed in the P&R too he's just a good rim protector but all other areas of defense aren't good.

AD is literally the only one that can do it all.

KAT and Jokic might be the two best offensive bigs but they are also horrendous defenders.

If you are asking me what I would rather have? I think the one position that I would rather have elite defense over elite offense is the center position. It is just so vital to have that versatility. Every other position I feel you probably would take elite offense over elite defense.

I just don't think Wiseman is that much more advanced offensively than mitch (and we don't even know if he will impact the game and have his instincts on defense) to consider him when we have so many other wholes and mitch is damn good at what he does.

[Deeeez Knicks]

It's really not for those very reasons you mentioned. We shot a lot of bricks. A lot of his points came off that just like when Kanter was here and used to do the same. Kanter averaged 3.8 offensive boards in 26 MPG cleaning up our bricks. Robinson averaged 3.0 offensive boards and we were even worse shooting last year than with Kanter. There were so many bricks to benefit from. Robinson is a great athlete but he's not very skilled. He can definitely do some positive things on the court but I think getting carried away with his FG% is a bit foolish. We know what he does and what he doesn't do, there's no need to try to trick ourselves into thinking there's more to it.

Mitch is def good on the offensive boards. That is another plus. There's value in getting easy buckets and offensive boards, along with being an elite pick n roll finisher. That is probably why our offensive rating is a lot higher with Mitch by every metric.

Kanters problem was always on the defensive end. Kanter still grabbed offensive rebounds at a higher rate in Port and Boston the last 2 years so I dont think the Knicks bricking at a higher rate necessarily makes a big difference. Think if we had better spacing/PG play it would help Mitch a lot more then more bricks

It's a good thing to have off the bench but if we are talking about legit starter quality then those type of guys have been faded out. The Tyson Chandler's and Deandre Jordan's of the league have become situational starters and backups. This is the role some see Mitch thriving in, providing energy, rebounds and athleticism off the bench. Having somebody in front of him with more actual skill would be ideal, preferably somebody who can stretch the floor. But ultimately what we need is better perimeter players as no rim running bigs are taking any team anywhere.

I think it really all depends on the team. I def see what you guys are saying, but I just don't think it is definitive and that cut and dry. I wouldn't rush to make a decision just yet on Mitch when we have time.

Either way, if we are talking about building a contender the Knicks have so far to go and so many other more important needs. Everyone is focusing on Mitch not shooting, but really that nobody else on the roster can shoot is much more of a liability. I wouldnt even worry about Mitch. He is the least of our worries. Just pencil him in as a starter and look to add more talent around him and RJ...draft the best G and wing and go from there.

Wiseman is def a good prospect but won't be there so all these discussion is just an excuse to slander Mitch

[mpharris36]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

Like I said in a previous post. Wiseman's comp has always been Davis lite and Davis himself has stated he prefers playing the 4 than the 5. Its not impossible for both of them to be on the floor at the same time especially if Wiseman's jumper is as good as advertised. I would be through the moon if he was ended up getting him.

[NewYorkPride85]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

Absolutely. And the Knicks would be absolute idiots to pass on Wiseman if by some miracle of god he's still available at 8. Drafting Wiseman doesn't mean they have to move Mitch, at least not right away. Nor does it preclude them from moving Wiseman, at some point. I'm really not getting some of these tit for tat arguments against taking Wiseman if he's around at 8. The Knicks aren't at a point...again...where they need to focus on fit. They are at the point where they need talent and assets. They can absolutely afford to taking Wiseman at 8 and have both him and Robinson on the roster. Wiseman not being able to shoot a 3 as a reason not to draft him? Dear lord guys...stop it, just stop it. The Knicks aren't the Warriors and they ain't going to be competing for a title any time soon. Their biggest need and weakness is the sheer and utter lack of talent and assets, the inability to create efficient offense...NOT 3 point shooting.

Is it really true that he can't shoot threes? In the videos I've seen of him, it looks like he's pretty good from behind the arc and actually has good form. Not trying to bash, just want to read up more since I want to be better informed.

[HEZI]

I think it depends if they are used as a rim runner and you can throw lobs to them they are valuable if they can also dominant on the defensive end.

Mitch is freakish enough where his roll game needs to be accounted for because he can literally jump higher than almost every big meaning you have to tag him on the roll or its an easy dunk. Its why he simply has such a high FG% because no one can defend his shots as he is higher at the rim then anyone.

For example Steven Adams is a roller to the basket but doesn't play above the rim so he's not really a threat. Mitch is a different type of threat.

But nobody cares about Mitch on offense. Mitch isn't carrying any team to any wins by just rolling to the basket. That play, when teams really want to, can be shut down easily. Teams know how to shut it down. What teams really struggle defending is the pick and pop and that's where bigs make a living nowadays. Especially if you can put the ball on the floor off a fake and make a play driving to the basket. Mitch himself struggles defending those guys, but he will look great against the Deandre Jordan's and Jarrett Allens of the league because they play just like him.

If you had a worthwhile person running the P&R that could pass and shoot they would absolutely have to worry about him. Our best offensive play this year was the lob to mitch. It was effective and effecient. So if we end up getting that star player that can make the right play in the P&R with shooters give mitch the lob lane that will be a very difficult play to stop.

Gobert avg 15 a game on nearly 70% from the field with very little offensive game other than rim running. If you have other good players and proper spacing that play is a threat. And Mitch is a better athlete than Gobert too.

You are living in a fantasy though. Knicks don't have Donovan Mitchell nor do they have the shooting to be the 2nd best 3 point shooting team in the league according to stats. We don't have a perimeter star and nobody knows when we will get one and we are the worst shooting team in the league and have been for a few years now and nobody knows when that will change either. That's not fantasy that's our reality. Mitchell Robinson currently doesn't help solve our main issues. Gobert can't solve our issue either and speaking of Gobert he gets exposed year after year especially in the playoffs and his inability to even have a move in the post when they dump the ball to him and he looks lost is one of their problems. Mitch still has ways to go to even reach Gobert level and even reaching that is nothing special really.

[moocow007]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

Absolutely. And the Knicks would be absolute idiots to pass on Wiseman if by some miracle of god he's still available at 8. Drafting Wiseman doesn't mean they have to move Mitch, at least not right away. Nor does it preclude them from moving Wiseman, at some point. I'm really not getting some of these tit for tat arguments against taking Wiseman if he's around at 8. The Knicks aren't at a point...again...where they need to focus on fit. They are at the point where they need talent and assets. They can absolutely afford to taking Wiseman at 8 and have both him and Robinson on the roster. Wiseman not being able to shoot a 3 as a reason not to draft him? Dear lord guys...stop it, just stop it. The Knicks aren't the Warriors and they ain't going to be competing for a title any time soon. Their biggest need and weakness is the sheer and utter lack of talent and assets, the inability to create efficient offense...NOT 3 point shooting.

Is it really true that he can't shoot threes? In the videos I've seen of him, it looks like he's pretty good from behind the arc and actually has good form. Not trying to bash, just want to read up more since I want to be better informed.

Oh I don't disagree. Wiseman shoots better than folks are assuming. I'm just using that already off-kilter notion that he can't shoot as the wrong rationale for not taking him in that fantasy scenario. So in a sense it's a skewed assumption that shouldn't even be used.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I mean how many centers are great P&R pop bigs? Like I can count them on one hand (maybe 2) and almost all of them suck on defense. Outside of AD and that is probably why he is the best big in the league.

That's not how we should look at it, we should be future proofing our team the best we can. The crop of younger big men all seem capable of it now - Ayton, Jokic, Jaren Jackson, Embiid, KAT can all make jumpers. I think Wiseman will be like them, and Jackson, Ayton and Embiid are good to great defenders, and I think we'd all agree we'd trade half the roster for KAT or Jokic despite their defensive issues.


I think it's interesting that the Nets aren't really head over heels in love with Jarret Allen who is pretty much the same type of player, yet we're here acting like Mitch is untouchable. I'd trade Mitch for Wiseman, so I'd be happy to get the #2 pick if it meant we got James.

[mpharris36]

But nobody cares about Mitch on offense. Mitch isn't carrying any team to any wins by just rolling to the basket. That play, when teams really want to, can be shut down easily. Teams know how to shut it down. What teams really struggle defending is the pick and pop and that's where bigs make a living nowadays. Especially if you can put the ball on the floor off a fake and make a play driving to the basket. Mitch himself struggles defending those guys, but he will look great against the Deandre Jordan's and Jarrett Allens of the league because they play just like him.

If you had a worthwhile person running the P&R that could pass and shoot they would absolutely have to worry about him. Our best offensive play this year was the lob to mitch. It was effective and effecient. So if we end up getting that star player that can make the right play in the P&R with shooters give mitch the lob lane that will be a very difficult play to stop.

Gobert avg 15 a game on nearly 70% from the field with very little offensive game other than rim running. If you have other good players and proper spacing that play is a threat. And Mitch is a better athlete than Gobert too.

You are living in a fantasy though. Knicks don't have Donovan Mitchell nor do they have the shooting to be the 2nd best 3 point shooting team in the league according to stats. We don't have a perimeter star and nobody knows when we will get one and we are the worst shooting team in the league and have been for a few years now and nobody knows when that will change either. That's not fantasy that's our reality. Mitchell Robinson currently doesn't help solve our main issues. Gobert can't solve our issue either and speaking of Gobert he gets exposed year after year especially in the playoffs and his inability to even have a move in the post when they dump the ball to him and he looks lost is one of their problems. Mitch still has ways to go to even reach Gobert level and even reaching that is nothing special really.

I mean if the knicks want to be relevant anytime soon they need to get a player of Donovan Mitchells quality. Those are the players that run the NBA.

[robillionaire]

if we had KAT or Jokic there would be people who wanted to trade them because their defense isn't good enough

[mpharris36]

I mean how many centers are great P&R pop bigs? Like I can count them on one hand (maybe 2) and almost all of them suck on defense. Outside of AD and that is probably why he is the best big in the league.

That's not how we should look at it, we should be future proofing our team the best we can. The crop of younger big men all seem capable of it now - Ayton, Jokic, Jaren Jackson, Embiid, KAT can all make jumpers. I think Wiseman will be like them, and Jackson, Ayton and Embiid are good to great defenders, and I think we'd all agree we'd trade half the roster for KAT or Jokic despite their defensive issues.


I think it's interesting that the Nets aren't really head over heels in love with Jarret Allen who is pretty much the same type of player, yet we're here acting like Mitch is untouchable.

I need to see more from Ayton defensively (this year was a big step forward)
JJJ has been actually pretty big disappointment defensively
Embiid is a good rim protector but I would not qualify him as a great defensive player.

But we shouldn't be using assets on bigs, guards and wings dominate the NBA. Mitch is a fine center for a really good team if you had a all-star guard/wing. Our goal shouldn't be we need to replace Mitch, our goal should be we should add more good players with Mitch as part of the core.

[NewYorkPride85]

I would 100% draft Wiseman if he's there on the board when we are on the clock. But at the same time, I don't want to trade Mitch.

I think you can like one without disliking the other. I'd even go as far as saying with a defensive-minded innovative schemed head coach like Thibs, they may even be intriguing if paired together in the front court.

Like I said in a previous post. Wiseman's comp has always been Davis lite and Davis himself has stated he prefers playing the 4 than the 5. Its not impossible for both of them to be on the floor at the same time especially if Wiseman's jumper is as good as advertised. I would be through the moon if he was ended up getting him.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-draft-comparing-james-wiseman-and-onyeka-okongwu-the-top-big-man-prospects/

Don't know how to add links so I just posted it. There are other sites that include comparisons dating back to high school but I don't know them off the top of my head. I'll post them when I get around to it.