2019-2020 College/Draft thread X [marks the spot] (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT)

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I need to see more from Ayton defensively (this year was a big step forward)
JJJ has been actually pretty big disappointment defensively
Embiid is a good rim protector but I would not qualify him as a great defensive player.

But we shouldn't be using assets on bigs, guards and wings dominate the NBA. Mitch is a fine center for a really good team if you had a all-star guard/wing. Our goal shouldn't be we need to replace Mitch, our goal should be we should add more good players with Mitch as part of the core.

Ayton was very good this year, not sure what else he needs to do other than play more games, and Jackson's ability to cover in switches is a big plus. Embiid has made all-defense team and was a finalist for DPOY last year, if that doesn't qualify as a great defender I don't know what does. The Sixers defense as a whole wasn't good because of scheme and the fact Brown wanted Embiid to drop down.

I disagree, the direction the league is heading is wings & bigs, specifically versatile bigs. The team with the guards & wings + rim roller is losing to the team with the wing + big and guards they picked up off the value menu. A lot of teams are built to play small and switch everything, they know exactly how to defend Mitch because they've been doing it for a decade with players like him. Mitch isn't a core player, he's a dinosaur in an evolving NBA, we're talking about sticking to coal when the obvious direction to go is clean energy

Just consistency. 1 year is great. Now if you want to be considered a great defensive big you need to string seasons together. That is no knock I just said I would need to see more before we start throwing the "great" word around.

Calling mitch a dinosaur is Ludacris to me. He is the new style big. The big that can switch on the perimeter and not be exposed. The big that can run up and down the court on a fast break.

A dinosaur big is a back to the basket big. Like I said the ideal ideal position to be in is having an AD a 4 man that can play like a 5 man but with a 4 mans game. The problem he the only one like that simply put.

The rest have deficiencies in other areas. So what mitch lakes for an outside shot. KAT lacks for defending a parked car. Boston was one of the best teams in the NBA and played with a scrappy screen setting big.

If you have guards and wings that can make plays and you ask your center to defend, rebound, and catch dunks you can still win in the NBA. The jazz have been a 50+ win team built around defense around Gobert and letting Mitchell do his thing at the guard position.

Most of the bigs you mentioned had either early exits or didn't even make the playoffs.

The defensive rim roller is a dinosaur, even someone as good as Bam has run into the problem of hurting his teams spacing on offense now. He can switch & run offense, yet his team can't score now when he's on the floor. The Heat have a higher offensive rating with Kelly Olynyk on the floor vs the Lakers than they do with Bam.

I have made the point about the Celtics having a cheap center before, that is my issue with Mitch, his numbers are going to get him paid. His extension is coming and looking at some of the replies here people seem to think he's worth Capela money, which is an awful thought. And, don't forget that Boston was trying to trade up for Embiid in 2014, they offered the 6th and 17th for him, they refuse to spend big money or trade for a center that can't shoot/defend. Don't use them as an example without pointing out that they do want a center, it's just that they don't want it to be a rim roller.


The Jazz are going to move on from Gobert more than likely, that supermax contract is going to be covid to a salary cap.

[mpharris36]

If you measure impact based on raw stats sure Mitchell Robinson and Noel have similar stats.

When you look at advanced metrics you see a larger difference. OBPM, DBPM, VORP, PER, OFF RAT, DEF RAT, Win Shares...go on and on he dominates him in every advanced statistic known to man.

[DOT]

I got it

Marvin Bagley

That's who I'm gonna compare Wiseman to from now on.

[2010]

I don’t mind having them both and seeing if they can work together. But if we are able to trade Mitch +8 to move up for Wiseman... I’ll drive Mitch to the airport. I don’t think Wiseman will drop to 8. 6 at most imo.

Having Mitch would not prevent me from drafting Wiseman. I am legitimately intrigued by the idea of both on the roster.

But I do not think we are at a point where we should be leveraging a proven commodity like Mitch to draft a similar yet risky player in Wiseman. I'd consider that a mismanagement of assets. Wiseman is not enough of a sure shot for me to deem him worthy of two assets (#8 and Mitch).

I’m pulling the trigger. I don’t see Wiseman as a risk at all. Cause he was the #1 player coming out of high school, was in the convo of being the #1 pick until he got suspended. Now since he got suspended, it’s like people think he’s risky. I don’t. He’s much more proven than Mitch. Mitch is just a rim runner like Deandre Jordan and Capela. Wiseman has an advanced offense game and will be amongst the young great big men like Ayton, JJJ (who’s overrated but 10x better than Mitch), Jokic and Embiid. Mitch will just be a guy like Capela who is being phased out of the NBA.

I can play the same game too. Mitch is a former McDonald's All-American who was highly touted coming out of high school and was once viewed on par (or slightly below) the level of your boy Ayton. Until circumstances led to him sitting out a year after high school and opting to train independently for the NBA draft. Which led to his stock falling and the Knicks landing him as a 2nd round steal.

Let's not act like Mitch's draft slot was relative to his potential or projected ability. Mitch was hurt by the same factors that could ultimately lead to Wiseman being hurt. Risk factors attributed to too small a scouting sample size of competitive game action against top notch talent.

Wiseman is not a sure shot by any means. He is a risk. And I like him. But let's not act like it's a conservative move to trade Mitch & #8 for him.

[mpharris36]

Ayton was very good this year, not sure what else he needs to do other than play more games, and Jackson's ability to cover in switches is a big plus. Embiid has made all-defense team and was a finalist for DPOY last year, if that doesn't qualify as a great defender I don't know what does. The Sixers defense as a whole wasn't good because of scheme and the fact Brown wanted Embiid to drop down.

I disagree, the direction the league is heading is wings & bigs, specifically versatile bigs. The team with the guards & wings + rim roller is losing to the team with the wing + big and guards they picked up off the value menu. A lot of teams are built to play small and switch everything, they know exactly how to defend Mitch because they've been doing it for a decade with players like him. Mitch isn't a core player, he's a dinosaur in an evolving NBA, we're talking about sticking to coal when the obvious direction to go is clean energy

Just consistency. 1 year is great. Now if you want to be considered a great defensive big you need to string seasons together. That is no knock I just said I would need to see more before we start throwing the "great" word around.

Calling mitch a dinosaur is Ludacris to me. He is the new style big. The big that can switch on the perimeter and not be exposed. The big that can run up and down the court on a fast break.

A dinosaur big is a back to the basket big. Like I said the ideal ideal position to be in is having an AD a 4 man that can play like a 5 man but with a 4 mans game. The problem he the only one like that simply put.

The rest have deficiencies in other areas. So what mitch lakes for an outside shot. KAT lacks for defending a parked car. Boston was one of the best teams in the NBA and played with a scrappy screen setting big.

If you have guards and wings that can make plays and you ask your center to defend, rebound, and catch dunks you can still win in the NBA. The jazz have been a 50+ win team built around defense around Gobert and letting Mitchell do his thing at the guard position.

Most of the bigs you mentioned had either early exits or didn't even make the playoffs.

The defensive rim roller is a dinosaur, even someone as good as Bam has run into the problem of hurting his teams spacing on offense now. He can switch & run offense, yet his team can't score now when he's on the floor. The Heat have a higher offensive rating with Kelly Olynyk on the floor vs the Lakers than they do with Bam.

I have made the point about the Celtics having a cheap center before, that is my issue with Mitch, his numbers are going to get him paid. His extension is coming and looking at some of the replies here people seem to think he's worth Capela money, which is an awful thought. And, don't forget that Boston was trying to trade up for Embiid in 2014, they offered the 6th and 17th for him, they refuse to spend big money or trade for a center that can't shoot/defend. Don't use them as an example without pointing out that they do want a center, it's just that they don't want it to be a rim roller.


The Jazz are going to move on from Gobert more than likely, that supermax contract is going to be covid to a salary cap.

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

[3toheadmelo]

I got it

Marvin Bagley

That's who I'm gonna compare Wiseman to from now on.

I like Bagley and I think he has been judged unfairly due to his injuries but Wiseman is a much better defender and a legit rim protector. Also has way better measurements. I don't see the comparison besides being lefty's. Wiseman is also more polished on offense and not nearly as raw as Bagley.

[RHODEY]

Hayes is probably the better play if we are looking to move up. Can probably get him for a fraction of the cost of moving up to #2...or possibly we may not even have to move up.

Right and listening to various podcasts I dont get a solid answer on whether the Knicks would trade up for Hayes. The vague answer is no due due to ... "politics" or lack of interest? Or perhaps the Knicks are interested and are just holding their cards close to vest.

Yea, I think the Knicks are holding their cards close and people are just guessing. Every other day its a different rumor..between signings, trades and the draft. Just about every scenario has been covered

If that's true its refreshing. the old Knicks would have arrogantly broadcasted who they liked , so that another team could swoop in and C@ck block us.

[mpharris36]

I got it

Marvin Bagley

That's who I'm gonna compare Wiseman to from now on.

I will give an edge to Wiseman because he has crazy measurables. like 6 inch larger winspan than Bagley which is crazy. So I trust Wiseman rim protection much much more when Bagleys is non existent. But Bagley was suppose to be a unicorn too with his outside shot and decent handle for a big that never developed either. So we just don't know.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Just consistency. 1 year is great. Now if you want to be considered a great defensive big you need to string seasons together. That is no knock I just said I would need to see more before we start throwing the "great" word around.

Calling mitch a dinosaur is Ludacris to me. He is the new style big. The big that can switch on the perimeter and not be exposed. The big that can run up and down the court on a fast break.

A dinosaur big is a back to the basket big. Like I said the ideal ideal position to be in is having an AD a 4 man that can play like a 5 man but with a 4 mans game. The problem he the only one like that simply put.

The rest have deficiencies in other areas. So what mitch lakes for an outside shot. KAT lacks for defending a parked car. Boston was one of the best teams in the NBA and played with a scrappy screen setting big.

If you have guards and wings that can make plays and you ask your center to defend, rebound, and catch dunks you can still win in the NBA. The jazz have been a 50+ win team built around defense around Gobert and letting Mitchell do his thing at the guard position.

Most of the bigs you mentioned had either early exits or didn't even make the playoffs.

The defensive rim roller is a dinosaur, even someone as good as Bam has run into the problem of hurting his teams spacing on offense now. He can switch & run offense, yet his team can't score now when he's on the floor. The Heat have a higher offensive rating with Kelly Olynyk on the floor vs the Lakers than they do with Bam.

I have made the point about the Celtics having a cheap center before, that is my issue with Mitch, his numbers are going to get him paid. His extension is coming and looking at some of the replies here people seem to think he's worth Capela money, which is an awful thought. And, don't forget that Boston was trying to trade up for Embiid in 2014, they offered the 6th and 17th for him, they refuse to spend big money or trade for a center that can't shoot/defend. Don't use them as an example without pointing out that they do want a center, it's just that they don't want it to be a rim roller.


The Jazz are going to move on from Gobert more than likely, that supermax contract is going to be covid to a salary cap.

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

[DOT]

I got it

Marvin Bagley

That's who I'm gonna compare Wiseman to from now on.

I like Bagley and I think he has been judged unfairly due to his injuries but Wiseman is a much better defender and a legit rim protector. Also has way better measurements. I don't see the comparison besides being lefty's. Wiseman is also more polished on offense and not nearly as raw as Bagley.

See, the issue is, you keep saying Wiseman is polished on offense, but we didn't see that in college

Bagley was hitting 3s at 40% at Duke, and if you watch their highlights, their games are pretty similarly polished from what we saw of Wiseman

I'll give you the measurements argument, and he is a better rim protector, but it's not so far apart as you make it seem

Also I like Bagley just fine, but his career is getting derailed due to injuries and bad luck of being drafted 1 spot ahead of Luka. And he was taken 2nd overall and compared to AD coming out of high school.

[mpharris36]

The defensive rim roller is a dinosaur, even someone as good as Bam has run into the problem of hurting his teams spacing on offense now. He can switch & run offense, yet his team can't score now when he's on the floor. The Heat have a higher offensive rating with Kelly Olynyk on the floor vs the Lakers than they do with Bam.

I have made the point about the Celtics having a cheap center before, that is my issue with Mitch, his numbers are going to get him paid. His extension is coming and looking at some of the replies here people seem to think he's worth Capela money, which is an awful thought. And, don't forget that Boston was trying to trade up for Embiid in 2014, they offered the 6th and 17th for him, they refuse to spend big money or trade for a center that can't shoot/defend. Don't use them as an example without pointing out that they do want a center, it's just that they don't want it to be a rim roller.


The Jazz are going to move on from Gobert more than likely, that supermax contract is going to be covid to a salary cap.

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

Wiseman got to learn to do that too.

[3toheadmelo]

Having Mitch would not prevent me from drafting Wiseman. I am legitimately intrigued by the idea of both on the roster.

But I do not think we are at a point where we should be leveraging a proven commodity like Mitch to draft a similar yet risky player in Wiseman. I'd consider that a mismanagement of assets. Wiseman is not enough of a sure shot for me to deem him worthy of two assets (#8 and Mitch).

I’m pulling the trigger. I don’t see Wiseman as a risk at all. Cause he was the #1 player coming out of high school, was in the convo of being the #1 pick until he got suspended. Now since he got suspended, it’s like people think he’s risky. I don’t. He’s much more proven than Mitch. Mitch is just a rim runner like Deandre Jordan and Capela. Wiseman has an advanced offense game and will be amongst the young great big men like Ayton, JJJ (who’s overrated but 10x better than Mitch), Jokic and Embiid. Mitch will just be a guy like Capela who is being phased out of the NBA.

I can play the same game too. Mitch is a former McDonald's All-American who was highly touted coming out of high school and was once viewed on par (or slightly below) the level of your boy Ayton. Until circumstances led to him sitting out a year after high school and opting to train independently for the NBA draft. Which led to his stock falling and the Knicks landing him as a 2nd round steal.

Let's not act like Mitch's draft slot was relative to his potential or projected ability. Mitch was hurt by the same factors that could ultimately lead to Wiseman being hurt. Risk factors attributed to too small a scouting sample size of competitive game action against top notch talent.

Wiseman is not a sure shot by any means. He is a risk. And I like him. But let's not act like it's a conservative move to trade Mitch & #8 for him.

Ayton was a top 3 consensus talent pretty much all of high school though. Mitch was not even close and was more of a top 15 talent. There was still a considerable gap between them rightfully so.

Even if you look at Mitch's clips from high school and compare them to right now, there's barely any difference. He only shot wide open jumpers in high school but besides that, he's the same exact player he is right now. Just a rim runner with absolustely zero offense.

You seen the clips of Wiseman in high school with those nasty step backs and fade aways. Mitch wasn't doing that and still isn't. Wiseman was showing off a fadeaway even in college. If Ayton or even Embiid played just 3 games in college, would you still be saying "Mitch is more proven" and scoff at trading up for them? There's just a drastic difference in the talent of guys like Ayton/Embiid, etc to guys like Capela and Mitch.

[DOT]

I got it

Marvin Bagley

That's who I'm gonna compare Wiseman to from now on.

I will give an edge to Wiseman because he has crazy measurables. like 6 inch larger winspan than Bagley which is crazy. So I trust Wiseman rim protection much much more when Bagleys is non existent. But Bagley was suppose to be a unicorn too with his outside shot and decent handle for a big that never developed either. So we just don't know.

Yeah, Wiseman's measurables are much better, I'm just talking about their offensive games at the time they went into the draft

If you watch Bagley at Duke, he looks pretty similar to how Wiseman looked at Memphis

Even compare this 3 game stretch of Bagley's from early on in the year against Texas, Florida, and Indiana:

29/13/2 on 59/33/78 splits

Holds up pretty well to Wiseman's 3 game he played

Really all this comes down to is, we didn't see enough of Wiseman in college, people who like him are projecting his game to be better than it is, and people who don't like him are projecting his game to be worse than it probably is.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

Wiseman got to learn to do that too.

Does he? There's pretty much no doubt he can do what Mitch does on offense, especially if we bring him off the bench so he can feast against 2nd units like Mitch does.

[3toheadmelo]

I got it

Marvin Bagley

That's who I'm gonna compare Wiseman to from now on.

I like Bagley and I think he has been judged unfairly due to his injuries but Wiseman is a much better defender and a legit rim protector. Also has way better measurements. I don't see the comparison besides being lefty's. Wiseman is also more polished on offense and not nearly as raw as Bagley.

See, the issue is, you keep saying Wiseman is polished on offense, but we didn't see that in college

Bagley was hitting 3s at 40% at Duke, and if you watch their highlights, their games are pretty similarly polished from what we saw of Wiseman

I'll give you the measurements argument, and he is a better rim protector, but it's not so far apart as you make it seem

Also I like Bagley just fine, but his career is getting derailed due to injuries and bad luck of being drafted 1 spot ahead of Luka. And he was taken 2nd overall and compared to AD coming out of high school.

Their highlights are much different. Cause Bagley can't hit step backs like that or mid post fadeaways. When he's taking jumpers, it's literally just face up jumpers. He has no moves. No counter moves and can't really create his shot. On top of that he has no right hand so he's pretty predictable on offense. Wiseman has a lot more moves in his bag. Bagley was touted as a top player cause he shown flashes of a jumper and his hops are insane. But besides that, he can't really create his own offense. He gets a bunch of points strictly off athletcisim and wide open jumpers. Wiseman to me has shown enough flashes he can create for himself. Way more than Bagley.

[Deeeez Knicks]

The defensive rim roller is a dinosaur, even someone as good as Bam has run into the problem of hurting his teams spacing on offense now. He can switch & run offense, yet his team can't score now when he's on the floor. The Heat have a higher offensive rating with Kelly Olynyk on the floor vs the Lakers than they do with Bam.

I have made the point about the Celtics having a cheap center before, that is my issue with Mitch, his numbers are going to get him paid. His extension is coming and looking at some of the replies here people seem to think he's worth Capela money, which is an awful thought. And, don't forget that Boston was trying to trade up for Embiid in 2014, they offered the 6th and 17th for him, they refuse to spend big money or trade for a center that can't shoot/defend. Don't use them as an example without pointing out that they do want a center, it's just that they don't want it to be a rim roller.


The Jazz are going to move on from Gobert more than likely, that supermax contract is going to be covid to a salary cap.

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

That is really down playing Bams impact.

Bam Ortg in playoffs: 123
Kelly Ortg in playoffs: 115

Heat are in the finals in large part because of Bam.

[Zenzibar]

That is still pretty impressive numbers though. Especially given the circumstances. Just being able to score that much on dunks, with a percentage that nobody has ever matched in NBA history, with horrible spacing and bad PG play.

It's really not for those very reasons you mentioned. We shot a lot of bricks. A lot of his points came off that just like when Kanter was here and used to do the same. Kanter averaged 3.8 offensive boards in 26 MPG cleaning up our bricks. Robinson averaged 3.0 offensive boards and we were even worse shooting last year than with Kanter. There were so many bricks to benefit from. Robinson is a great athlete but he's not very skilled. He can definitely do some positive things on the court but I think getting carried away with his FG% is a bit foolish. We know what he does and what he doesn't do, there's no need to try to trick ourselves into thinking there's more to it.

It is not overthinking at all. Mitch missed playing organized ball for a year before he got drafted. He gets drafted to a team that made zero effort in developing him or any of our rookies. Mitch started off on the wrong foot from the get go. Those players that had some semblance of development actually played well when they first got to the Knicks and not too long into their stints here, their professional careers took a nose dive. There are those that have the maturity to develop themselves but you have to remember these are kids. How many of us were professionally mature in our late teens/early twenties? That is where leadership comes in. Knox had great development coaches at Kentucky which is why he did well (albeit not great) his rookie year and then fell off a cliff. DSJ was decent for us when he was first traded to us and then fell off a cliff. Same thing with Frank except that he was playing professionally going into draft night and then was thrown to the wolves his first year without letting his body rest which partially explains his situation. All of our recent picks were considered development project yet we never had any semblance of player development to begin with so they were all doomed to fail.
The fact we have Kenny Payne who is a great big man developer (given his professional acumen and the players he has developed already) is a boon for Mitch and Knox. More so for Knox since he still has to mature and Payne could probably be the only one to get him to focus and get right with his basketball career. Same thing applies to Frank (who was starting to show glimpses before the season was cut short) and DSJ who has talent but has lost all confidence and was in a really bad place after losing the woman who raised him. I would like to say that our new staff seem to care about our players outside of just basketball but I haven't seen enough to warrant me stating that as fact but if that truly is the case, then we can expect great things next year even if it doesn't reflect on our record.

Great post.

Also Johnnie Bryant formally from Utah will be tremendous for DSJ's development. Under Payne we should be excited about all these young guys including Julius Randle who is only 25.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

That is really down playing Bams impact.

Bam Ortg in playoffs: 123
Kelly Ortg in playoffs: 115

Heat are in the finals in large part because of Bam.

I didn't downplay his impact, I said even he needs to be able to space, because the Lakers have the answers for what he does on offense, and he does a lot more on offense than Mitch does.

[DOT]

I like Bagley and I think he has been judged unfairly due to his injuries but Wiseman is a much better defender and a legit rim protector. Also has way better measurements. I don't see the comparison besides being lefty's. Wiseman is also more polished on offense and not nearly as raw as Bagley.

See, the issue is, you keep saying Wiseman is polished on offense, but we didn't see that in college

Bagley was hitting 3s at 40% at Duke, and if you watch their highlights, their games are pretty similarly polished from what we saw of Wiseman

I'll give you the measurements argument, and he is a better rim protector, but it's not so far apart as you make it seem

Also I like Bagley just fine, but his career is getting derailed due to injuries and bad luck of being drafted 1 spot ahead of Luka. And he was taken 2nd overall and compared to AD coming out of high school.

Their highlights are much different. Cause Bagley can't hit step backs like that or mid post fadeaways. When he's taking jumpers, it's literally just face up jumpers. He has no moves. No counter moves and can't really create his shot. On top of that he has no right hand so he's pretty predictable on offense. Wiseman has a lot more moves in his bag. Bagley was touted as a top player cause he shown flashes of a jumper and his hops are insane. But besides that, he can't really create his own offense. He gets a bunch of points strictly off athletcisim and wide open jumpers. Wiseman to me has shown enough flashes he can create for himself. Way more than Bagley.

Again, you keep saying stuff like this when Wiseman really didn't show it in college, you saw him do it in high school and project that he could have done it in college

And you speak about Bagley in present tense when I'm clearly speaking about his college highlights and how he looked then compared to how Wiseman looks now

Wiseman got nearly all of his points strictly off athleticism as well. He's not Embiid or AD out there.

[RHODEY]

The defensive rim roller is a dinosaur, even someone as good as Bam has run into the problem of hurting his teams spacing on offense now. He can switch & run offense, yet his team can't score now when he's on the floor. The Heat have a higher offensive rating with Kelly Olynyk on the floor vs the Lakers than they do with Bam.

I have made the point about the Celtics having a cheap center before, that is my issue with Mitch, his numbers are going to get him paid. His extension is coming and looking at some of the replies here people seem to think he's worth Capela money, which is an awful thought. And, don't forget that Boston was trying to trade up for Embiid in 2014, they offered the 6th and 17th for him, they refuse to spend big money or trade for a center that can't shoot/defend. Don't use them as an example without pointing out that they do want a center, it's just that they don't want it to be a rim roller.


The Jazz are going to move on from Gobert more than likely, that supermax contract is going to be covid to a salary cap.

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

If free throw shooting is a barometer for form, Mitchs shot it @ a 74% clip Bam @ a 69% this season... Im not so sure I would close the door on Mitch in that department.