2019-2020 College/Draft thread X [marks the spot] (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT)

[3toheadmelo]

See, the issue is, you keep saying Wiseman is polished on offense, but we didn't see that in college

Bagley was hitting 3s at 40% at Duke, and if you watch their highlights, their games are pretty similarly polished from what we saw of Wiseman

I'll give you the measurements argument, and he is a better rim protector, but it's not so far apart as you make it seem

Also I like Bagley just fine, but his career is getting derailed due to injuries and bad luck of being drafted 1 spot ahead of Luka. And he was taken 2nd overall and compared to AD coming out of high school.

Their highlights are much different. Cause Bagley can't hit step backs like that or mid post fadeaways. When he's taking jumpers, it's literally just face up jumpers. He has no moves. No counter moves and can't really create his shot. On top of that he has no right hand so he's pretty predictable on offense. Wiseman has a lot more moves in his bag. Bagley was touted as a top player cause he shown flashes of a jumper and his hops are insane. But besides that, he can't really create his own offense. He gets a bunch of points strictly off athletcisim and wide open jumpers. Wiseman to me has shown enough flashes he can create for himself. Way more than Bagley.

Again, you keep saying stuff like this when Wiseman really didn't show it in college, you saw him do it in high school and project that he could have done it in college

And you speak about Bagley in present tense when I'm clearly speaking about his college highlights and how he looked then compared to how Wiseman looks now

Wiseman got nearly all of his points strictly off athleticism as well. He's not Embiid or AD out there.

Wiseman actually showed off a mid post fadeaway in college that Bagley never showed in college ever. So... yeah.

[RHODEY]

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

Wiseman got to learn to do that too.

Does he? There's pretty much no doubt he can do what Mitch does on offense, especially if we bring him off the bench so he can feast against 2nd units like Mitch does.

There's no doubt he can block shots all the way out to the 3pt line? There's no doubt he can recover (even after missing an assignment) on defense quickly enough to still defend an attack the rim? How about exploding vertically on his 2nd and 3rd leaps faster anyone else in traffic? Those are just some of the things that Mitch does routinely that very few other players can do.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Bam is still very effective this idea he is hurting the team in such a small sample size isn't accurate. Jimmy Butler went bananas in one game when Kelly O was out there and he benefited from that. Yes centers like that need a good playmaker and with Dragic out there heat are suffering with that. Butler is the best playmaker and I wouldn't say he's great at that. Herro for impressive he has been in leading up to the finals is not a point guard either.

Bam is playing hurt too. Before that in the playoffs he was averaging 20-12-5 on like 60% shooting a great defense. If that is a dinosaur big man...sign me up for that every day of the week.

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

If free throw shooting is a barometer for form, Mitchs shot it @ a 74% clip Bam @ a 69% this season... Im not so sure I would close the door on Mitch in that department.

Mitch shot 57% from the line, Bam is a career 71% shooter from the line, has made some mid range jumpers.

[RHODEY]

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

If free throw shooting is a barometer for form, Mitchs shot it @ a 74% clip Bam @ a 69% this season... Im not so sure I would close the door on Mitch in that department.

Mitch shot 57% from the line, Bam is a career 71% shooter from the line, has made some mid range jumpers.

Ooops my bad I confused his FG& with Free throw %.

[DOT]

Their highlights are much different. Cause Bagley can't hit step backs like that or mid post fadeaways. When he's taking jumpers, it's literally just face up jumpers. He has no moves. No counter moves and can't really create his shot. On top of that he has no right hand so he's pretty predictable on offense. Wiseman has a lot more moves in his bag. Bagley was touted as a top player cause he shown flashes of a jumper and his hops are insane. But besides that, he can't really create his own offense. He gets a bunch of points strictly off athletcisim and wide open jumpers. Wiseman to me has shown enough flashes he can create for himself. Way more than Bagley.

Again, you keep saying stuff like this when Wiseman really didn't show it in college, you saw him do it in high school and project that he could have done it in college

And you speak about Bagley in present tense when I'm clearly speaking about his college highlights and how he looked then compared to how Wiseman looks now

Wiseman got nearly all of his points strictly off athleticism as well. He's not Embiid or AD out there.

Wiseman actually showed off a mid post fadeaway in college that Bagley never showed in college ever. So... yeah.

How many he make?

[3toheadmelo]

Again, you keep saying stuff like this when Wiseman really didn't show it in college, you saw him do it in high school and project that he could have done it in college

And you speak about Bagley in present tense when I'm clearly speaking about his college highlights and how he looked then compared to how Wiseman looks now

Wiseman got nearly all of his points strictly off athleticism as well. He's not Embiid or AD out there.

Wiseman actually showed off a mid post fadeaway in college that Bagley never showed in college ever. So... yeah.

How many he make?

At least 2. And before you say “such a small sample size” I’m just going to say that that point is moot. He took those same types of shots in all of high school so it’s not like it’s something new. And in those 3 games he played to his strengths and dominated the paint like he was supposed to do. If he took more jumpers you guys would be crying about how he’s soft and is not dominating like we expected him to do.

[2010]

I’m pulling the trigger. I don’t see Wiseman as a risk at all. Cause he was the #1 player coming out of high school, was in the convo of being the #1 pick until he got suspended. Now since he got suspended, it’s like people think he’s risky. I don’t. He’s much more proven than Mitch. Mitch is just a rim runner like Deandre Jordan and Capela. Wiseman has an advanced offense game and will be amongst the young great big men like Ayton, JJJ (who’s overrated but 10x better than Mitch), Jokic and Embiid. Mitch will just be a guy like Capela who is being phased out of the NBA.

I can play the same game too. Mitch is a former McDonald's All-American who was highly touted coming out of high school and was once viewed on par (or slightly below) the level of your boy Ayton. Until circumstances led to him sitting out a year after high school and opting to train independently for the NBA draft. Which led to his stock falling and the Knicks landing him as a 2nd round steal.

Let's not act like Mitch's draft slot was relative to his potential or projected ability. Mitch was hurt by the same factors that could ultimately lead to Wiseman being hurt. Risk factors attributed to too small a scouting sample size of competitive game action against top notch talent.

Wiseman is not a sure shot by any means. He is a risk. And I like him. But let's not act like it's a conservative move to trade Mitch & #8 for him.

Ayton was a top 3 consensus talent pretty much all of high school though. Mitch was not even close and was more of a top 15 talent. There was still a considerable gap between them rightfully so.

Even if you look at Mitch's clips from high school and compare them to right now, there's barely any difference. He only shot wide open jumpers in high school but besides that, he's the same exact player he is right now. Just a rim runner with absolustely zero offense.

You seen the clips of Wiseman in high school with those nasty step backs and fade aways. Mitch wasn't doing that and still isn't. Wiseman was showing off a fadeaway even in college. If Ayton or even Embiid played just 3 games in college, would you still be saying "Mitch is more proven" and scoff at trading up for them? There's just a drastic difference in the talent of guys like Ayton/Embiid, etc to guys like Capela and Mitch.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Fair points.

[DOT]

Wiseman actually showed off a mid post fadeaway in college that Bagley never showed in college ever. So... yeah.

How many he make?

At least 2. And before you say “such a small sample size” I’m just going to say that that point is moot. He took those same types of shots in all of high school so it’s not like it’s something new. And in those 3 games he played to his strengths and dominated the paint like he was supposed to do. If he took more jumpers you guys would be crying about how he’s soft and is not dominating like we expected him to do.

First off, no I would not be saying that

Second off, that's literally my point. You can't at the same time say Wiseman has a post game cause of high school and two shots in college but Mitch's shooting in high school doesn't count because it's high school. I'm saying neither count because it's high school

Wiseman may have a post game, but we don't know because we didn't see enough of him. He may have a shot, but we don't know because we didn't see enough of him

I still have him as a top 2 player, but he's still very much a question mark for what he can or can't do on offense because he didn't get the time to showcase himself. I think he has the highest floor of anyone in the draft, but I can't tell if he has the ceiling because of how little he played.

[2010]

All the Marvin Bagley III slander is being noted. Ooooh this is gonna serve as some Toronto Raptors motivization.

Spoiler:

[knickstape4ever]

Mitchell Robinson is probably the best thing the Knicks have done in the past 7 years and yet fans are complaining about him....smh

[3toheadmelo]

How many he make?

At least 2. And before you say “such a small sample size” I’m just going to say that that point is moot. He took those same types of shots in all of high school so it’s not like it’s something new. And in those 3 games he played to his strengths and dominated the paint like he was supposed to do. If he took more jumpers you guys would be crying about how he’s soft and is not dominating like we expected him to do.

First off, no I would not be saying that

Second off, that's literally my point. You can't at the same time say Wiseman has a post game cause of high school and two shots in college but Mitch's shooting in high school doesn't count because it's high school. I'm saying neither count because it's high school

Wiseman may have a post game, but we don't know because we didn't see enough of him. He may have a shot, but we don't know because we didn't see enough of him

I still have him as a top 2 player, but he's still very much a question mark for what he can or can't do on offense because he didn't get the time to showcase himself. I think he has the highest floor of anyone in the draft, but I can't tell if he has the ceiling because of how little he played.

Mitch only shot wide open jumpers in high school. And not much of them. He is still the same exact player he was in high school to now besides not shooting a wide open jumper every once in a while. That's literally it.

I just don't see how there's a lack of faith in Wiseman's offense when he did show off an advanced game muuuuuuuuuuuuch more times than someone like Mitch ever has. And that's in high school and college combined. We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally have been following Wiseman since he was in high school so I believe in him more than people who has only seen him in college.

[3toheadmelo]

All the Marvin Bagley III slander is being noted. Ooooh this is gonna serve as some Toronto Raptors motivization.

Spoiler:

He's gonna be nice. He's just too injury prone at this point

[DOT]

All the Marvin Bagley III slander is being noted. Ooooh this is gonna serve as some Toronto Raptors motivization.

Spoiler:

Bagley just got unlucky with injuries and being drafted by the Kings one spot ahead of Luka

He really hasn't been bad, especially when you compare him to Ayton

Per36 for their careers:

Bagley: 21/11/1.4 with 1.3 blocks on 50/29/70 splits, .553 TS
Ayton: 20/12/2 with 1.3 blocks on 57/18/75 splits, .593 TS

Comparable. I think Wiseman will be pretty good too, but not a guy you can build an offense around.

[3toheadmelo]

All the Marvin Bagley III slander is being noted. Ooooh this is gonna serve as some Toronto Raptors motivization.

Spoiler:

Bagley just got unlucky with injuries and being drafted by the Kings one spot ahead of Luka

He really hasn't been bad, especially when you compare him to Ayton

Per36 for their careers:

Bagley: 21/11/1.4 with 1.3 blocks on 50/29/70 splits, .553 TS
Ayton: 20/12/2 with 1.3 blocks on 57/18/75 splits, .593 TS

Comparable. I think Wiseman will be pretty good too, but not a guy you can build an offense around.

The most impressive part of Bagley is that he is able to score like 20 points at any time with an extremely raw offense. If he keeps developing, he's gonna be really good imo. I just hope he can stay healthy

[god shammgod]

All the Marvin Bagley III slander is being noted. Ooooh this is gonna serve as some Toronto Raptors motivization.

Spoiler:

Bagley just got unlucky with injuries and being drafted by the Kings one spot ahead of Luka

He really hasn't been bad, especially when you compare him to Ayton

Per36 for their careers:

Bagley: 21/11/1.4 with 1.3 blocks on 50/29/70 splits, .553 TS
Ayton: 20/12/2 with 1.3 blocks on 57/18/75 splits, .593 TS

Comparable. I think Wiseman will be pretty good too, but not a guy you can build an offense around.

well, ayton is kinda overrated. you'd have to be crazy to think he's gonna be some kind of great.....oh, hi melo. how are you ? didn't see you there.

[3toheadmelo]

All the Marvin Bagley III slander is being noted. Ooooh this is gonna serve as some Toronto Raptors motivization.

Spoiler:

Bagley just got unlucky with injuries and being drafted by the Kings one spot ahead of Luka

He really hasn't been bad, especially when you compare him to Ayton

Per36 for their careers:

Bagley: 21/11/1.4 with 1.3 blocks on 50/29/70 splits, .553 TS
Ayton: 20/12/2 with 1.3 blocks on 57/18/75 splits, .593 TS

Comparable. I think Wiseman will be pretty good too, but not a guy you can build an offense around.

well, ayton is kinda overrated. you'd have to be crazy to think he's gonna be some kind of great.....oh, hi melo. how are you ? didn't see you there.

Hey at least he's better than your boy Bamba

[mpharris36]

Bam is effective on defense, he's not effective on offense right now, and he's a much better player than Mitch. Jimmy went crazy because he had driving lanes for days, they played 5 out and it shows anytime Kelly is on the floor their offense runs better. The goal is to find a guy that can defend and space the floor as well, I think Wiseman has a much better chance of being able to defend than Mitch has being able to learn to shoot/score.


Bam has the form to potentially become a shooter, he's not Mitch, and hoping Mitch becomes him is just going to lead to even bigger disappointment. The point of bringing up Bam is to show that a far superior player than Mitch still needs to expand his range.

That is really down playing Bams impact.

Bam Ortg in playoffs: 123
Kelly Ortg in playoffs: 115

Heat are in the finals in large part because of Bam.

I didn't downplay his impact, I said even he needs to be able to space, because the Lakers have the answers for what he does on offense, and he does a lot more on offense than Mitch does.

Bam has been limited with an injury all series though. And the heats best playmaker is out due to injury. I think Deeeez was point out that the heat have been significantly better in the playoffs on offense with Bam even though Kelly can shoot better.

You don't need to have a 5 out offense to be successful in the nba. I'm not downplaying shooting because its important. But 3 good shooters surrounding the P&R with a rim running big is still very very difficult to defend. And Mitch also plays at a level that other "rim runners" don't. So he he's more mobile than the normal rim runner and jumps higher. That is why he is so effective even playing with **** teammates

[god shammgod]

Bagley just got unlucky with injuries and being drafted by the Kings one spot ahead of Luka

He really hasn't been bad, especially when you compare him to Ayton

Per36 for their careers:

Bagley: 21/11/1.4 with 1.3 blocks on 50/29/70 splits, .553 TS
Ayton: 20/12/2 with 1.3 blocks on 57/18/75 splits, .593 TS

Comparable. I think Wiseman will be pretty good too, but not a guy you can build an offense around.

well, ayton is kinda overrated. you'd have to be crazy to think he's gonna be some kind of great.....oh, hi melo. how are you ? didn't see you there.

Hey at least he's better than your boy Bamba

who's bamba. never heard of him.

[DOT]

well, ayton is kinda overrated. you'd have to be crazy to think he's gonna be some kind of great.....oh, hi melo. how are you ? didn't see you there.

Hey at least he's better than your boy Bamba

who's bamba. never heard of him.

Watch on YouTube

[thebuzzardman]

I'm just going to hang out in this topic. It's marginally less depressing to discuss how the Knicks have no future, as opposed to the USA not having one. At least not one that's a functioning democracy.