Zach and Coby

[Chi town]

If OPJ is healthy he will start at SF, and as I previously posted, Zach and Coby will start at the guard positions.

Most likely Lauri will start at PF, but there is a question mark about what's going on with WCJ since he's announced that he wants to play PF.

If he's not traded, then he'll start at center. If Lauri is traded, then WCJ will start at PF.

WCJ will never start at PF. He’s not a PF. At all.

Billy D knows better.

Sorry, this was a "What if..." scenario.

In this case "What if the Bulls traded Lauri?"

Then the only reason that I could see that happening is if they plan to play WCJ at PF.

So, logically, the reverse would also apply.

If the Bulls don't trade Lauri, then WCJ will not play PF (as I said in my previous post).

If the Bulls trade Lauri it’s because they got a good deal and Lauri would be replaced at PF w a pick, FA, or Thad. Not WCJ.

Even Thibs with his jumbo lineups wouldn’t play WCJ at PF.

Anyone who plays WCJ at PF is not an NBA coach... surprised Boylen didn’t... which proves my point.

[PhilLeotardo]

Should probably trade one of them. Having two point guards starting who average less then 7 assists per games combined will not be pleasing to the eyes. Lauri is going to get 7 shots attempts per game like Draymond, but Lauri is bad at defense.

Except that isn’t how the game works in 2020. “Point guards” arent really a thing anymore

By your logic, the warriors should’ve scrapped the idea of Thompson/Curry playing together. Portland, same thing. “Two ball dominant guards, neither of whom is an elite passer? Pass”

What matters is a coach that can teach ball movement & how to score within the flow of an offense

White & Lavine can definitely learn to play alongside one another & be a long term tandem. They’re both elite/will be elite scoring talents. Every single team in the NBA wishes that they had two young guards that can toss up 35ppg on any given evening. The Bulls have that

[PhilLeotardo]

WCJ will never start at PF. He’s not a PF. At all.

Billy D knows better.

Sorry, this was a "What if..." scenario.

In this case "What if the Bulls traded Lauri?"

Then the only reason that I could see that happening is if they plan to play WCJ at PF.

So, logically, the reverse would also apply.

If the Bulls don't trade Lauri, then WCJ will not play PF (as I said in my previous post).

If the Bulls trade Lauri it’s because they got a good deal and Lauri would be replaced at PF w a pick, FA, or Thad. Not WCJ.

Even Thibs with his jumbo lineups wouldn’t play WCJ at PF.

Anyone who plays WCJ at PF is not an NBA coach... surprised Boylen didn’t... which proves my point.

I think he conceivably could be a 4. He really, really needs to keep his weight down though. When he’s been in shape & locked in, imo he’s looked fast enough to play the 4. He has incredible footwork for a guy that young & that size

Now, whether or not he’ll ever learn to handle the Ball like a modern 4 is a HUGE “if”. But it’s not like it’s totally impossible. You really see no feasible avenue in which he becomes a good enough ball handler/shooter to play the 4? I personally feel like he’s looked pretty fast when he’s in tip top shape (which granted, hasn’t been often, but he also had a bad foot injury)

[WindyCityBorn]

Should probably trade one of them. Having two point guards starting who average less then 7 assists per games combined will not be pleasing to the eyes. Lauri is going to get 7 shots attempts per game like Draymond, but Lauri is bad at defense.

This is 1990. PG averaging 10 asts don't win anything. PGs that can drop 30 points on you do.

[The Chosen one]

I disagree big time! Coby was definitely not a liability on defense. He was surprisingly pretty solid on that end. Lavine was also solid as well and showed major improvement. Also I disagree with Lavine and Coby not being team players. I watched every game last season and Lavine and Coby was the only people who could create shots. Lavine actually did very well playmaking for others but guys could not hit shots due to lack of offense talent. Coby is actually an unselfish player if you go back to his UNC days but he was used as scorer and a guy that the Bulls put in different actions due to lack of talent. Lavine deferred to Porter a lot when they played together. I don’t buy the Lavine is selfish stigma that some people put on him. He carried a young injured bull squad last year albeit they didn’t win much but that’s not his fault. He did his part, now it’s up to everybody else to stay healthy and pick up their games.

I didn't say they weren't "team players". I said they both have trouble playing "team defense" and working within a scheme.... rotating, helping, being in position, picking up the right man in transition.... things like that.

I also didn't say Lavine or Coby were selfish. In fact, I didn't mention anything about their offense. I said they are both defensive liabilities and they were last season. That is just a fact. They are both decent on ball defenders one on one. Where they both run into trouble is playing team defense. It's expected from a rook like Coby, but Zach has been in the league for 6 years now and still doesn't get it. As far as Zach being a good play maker, I beg to differ. He makes the wrong pass, the wrong read or the wrong play far too often, especially in crunch time. It's a major reason why he is not a positive impact player and doesn't move the needle much and often moves it the wrong way. The crazy thing is that the Bulls were actually better in point differential (by 5 pts per 100 poss) when Zach was not playing than they were when he was on the floor. As far as Zach "carrying" a young injured Bulls squad- carried them to what? The cellar? The biggest issue with him is that he doesn't lift up the team at all or make his teammates better.

^this. What I wouldn't fully agree with is Coby. He was bad on defense but he WAS a rookie. I did see vast improvement as the season went on. Similarly on the offensive end. So I definitely am higher on Coby to get it together. Lavine has had too many years to improve his deficiencies. He is what he is as a player. He will mature and make some progress on the mental side of things but it takes time and experience in the league.

Coby was not bad by any means on defense. His defense was good off and on the ball especially later on in the year when he gained experience. Lavine being a terrible defender is a myth. He’s will never be all team defense but his man defense is solid and his off ball defense has improved but still needs work. Besides Dunn and Shaq Harrison, Coby and Lavine was the bulls best perimeter defenders last season. Along with them being able to drop 30 on any given night they can form a dangerous backcourt.

[dice]

I didn't say they weren't "team players". I said they both have trouble playing "team defense" and working within a scheme.... rotating, helping, being in position, picking up the right man in transition.... things like that.

I also didn't say Lavine or Coby were selfish. In fact, I didn't mention anything about their offense. I said they are both defensive liabilities and they were last season. That is just a fact. They are both decent on ball defenders one on one. Where they both run into trouble is playing team defense. It's expected from a rook like Coby, but Zach has been in the league for 6 years now and still doesn't get it. As far as Zach being a good play maker, I beg to differ. He makes the wrong pass, the wrong read or the wrong play far too often, especially in crunch time. It's a major reason why he is not a positive impact player and doesn't move the needle much and often moves it the wrong way. The crazy thing is that the Bulls were actually better in point differential (by 5 pts per 100 poss) when Zach was not playing than they were when he was on the floor. As far as Zach "carrying" a young injured Bulls squad- carried them to what? The cellar? The biggest issue with him is that he doesn't lift up the team at all or make his teammates better.

^this. What I wouldn't fully agree with is Coby. He was bad on defense but he WAS a rookie. I did see vast improvement as the season went on. Similarly on the offensive end. So I definitely am higher on Coby to get it together. Lavine has had too many years to improve his deficiencies. He is what he is as a player. He will mature and make some progress on the mental side of things but it takes time and experience in the league.

Coby was not bad by any means on defense.

if he wasn't bad on defense he would have been a starter on day 1. but he was bad:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/15/chicago-bulls-coby-white-starter/

[PhilLeotardo]

People need to stop talking about LaVine like he’s a finished product “he is who he is” lol. He’s like 26 years old & improves exponentially beyond comprehension with each passing year. In an era chock full of these iso-centric AAU prospects not really “getting it” until midway through their careers, and in an era where sports medicine & advanced training techniques can keep players playing & improving well into their 30s, LaVine is just getting started. If he continues on this upward trend, he’ll perhaps be the best guard in the league in 2/3 years, and he’s got the elite physical abilities necessary to take him as far as he wants to go. He’s on a Lillard trajectory. Add to all of that White, who I personally believe has a shot at being considerably better than McCollum, and that is truly something worth getting excited about. The Bulls likely selected the 3rd best player in the 2019 draft at #7.

[dice]

Should probably trade one of them. Having two point guards starting who average less then 7 assists per games combined will not be pleasing to the eyes. Lauri is going to get 7 shots attempts per game like Draymond, but Lauri is bad at defense.

Except that isn’t how the game works in 2020. “Point guards” arent really a thing anymore

if there's any position that remains in basketball, it's the point guard. they're just not as essential as they used to be, assuming that you have a number of players that can handle the ball and make good decisions to give flow to the offense

By your logic, the warriors should’ve scrapped the idea of Thompson/Curry playing together. Portland, same thing. “Two ball dominant guards, neither of whom is an elite passer? Pass”

klay thompson is about as far from a "ball dominant" guard as you can get. and that's a unicorn backcourt. having willing passers like draymond and durant helping to facilitate offense only enhances the uniqueness of that situation. it's fatally flawed thinking to try and reproduce it

as for the blazers, lillard was 5th in the league in APG this season. he's a terrific scorer, but he's also most certainly a "point guard." assists per game:

8.0 lillard
4.4 mccollum

the roles are distinct

What matters is a coach that can teach ball movement & how to score within the flow of an offense

true. if you have the personnel to execute a motion offense, the need for a "show runner" point guard goes down. see golden state

[The Chosen one]

^this. What I wouldn't fully agree with is Coby. He was bad on defense but he WAS a rookie. I did see vast improvement as the season went on. Similarly on the offensive end. So I definitely am higher on Coby to get it together. Lavine has had too many years to improve his deficiencies. He is what he is as a player. He will mature and make some progress on the mental side of things but it takes time and experience in the league.

Coby was not bad by any means on defense.

if he wasn't bad on defense he would have been a starter on day 1. but he was bad:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/15/chicago-bulls-coby-white-starter/

No the bulls wanted to ease him in. Majority of the rookies start out bad but he improved and played very good defense towards the end of the middle and end of the season.

[The Chosen one]

Should probably trade one of them. Having two point guards starting who average less then 7 assists per games combined will not be pleasing to the eyes. Lauri is going to get 7 shots attempts per game like Draymond, but Lauri is bad at defense.

Except that isn’t how the game works in 2020. “Point guards” arent really a thing anymore

if there's any position that remains in basketball, it's the point guard. they're just not as essential as they used to be, assuming that you have a number of players that can handle the ball and make good decisions to give flow to the offense

By your logic, the warriors should’ve scrapped the idea of Thompson/Curry playing together. Portland, same thing. “Two ball dominant guards, neither of whom is an elite passer? Pass”

klay thompson is about as far from a "ball dominant" guard as you can get. and that's a unicorn backcourt. having willing passers like draymond and durant helping to facilitate offense only enhances the uniqueness of that situation. it's fatally flawed thinking to try and reproduce it

as for the blazers, lillard was 5th in the league in APG this season. he's a terrific scorer, but he's also most certainly a "point guard." assists per game:

8.0 lillard
4.4 mccollum

the roles are distinct

What matters is a coach that can teach ball movement & how to score within the flow of an offense

true. if you have the personnel to execute a motion offense, the need for a "show runner" point guard goes down. see golden state

Damien Lillard is a terrible example. He averaged 8 assist THIS YEAR. The guy is in his prime. Had better players to pass to. But despite that he averages 6 assist for his career.

[dice]

People need to stop talking about LaVine like he’s a finished product “he is who he is” lol. He’s like 26 years old & improves exponentially beyond comprehension with each passing year. In an era chock full of these iso-centric AAU prospects not really “getting it” until midway through their careers, and in an era where sports medicine & advanced training techniques can keep players playing & improving well into their 30s, LaVine is just getting started. If he continues on this upward trend, he’ll perhaps be the best guard in the league in 2/3 years, and he’s got the elite physical abilities necessary to take him as far as he wants to go. He’s on a Lillard trajectory. Add to all of that White, who I personally believe has a shot at being considerably better than McCollum, and that is truly something worth getting excited about. The Bulls likely selected the 3rd best player in the 2019 draft at #7.

except for some superstars, players generally peak statistically at age 25-26. nobody does "well into their 30s." training and nutrition do more to prolong a player's years of prime performance

as for lavine's "improvement exponentially beyond comprehension", here are his numbers for the last 2 seasons:

age 23 season: 24/5/4/3to 57%ts
age 24 season: 26/5/4/3to 57%ts

nothing exponential about that. perfectly comprehendible

and coby is likely the 3rd best player in the draft?

[dice]

Coby was not bad by any means on defense.

if he wasn't bad on defense he would have been a starter on day 1. but he was bad:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/15/chicago-bulls-coby-white-starter/

No the bulls wanted to ease him in. Majority of the rookies start out bad but he improved and played very good defense towards the end of the middle and end of the season.

i just showed you some of the numbers. there's no way to explain away, for example, players feasting on him in ISO. and it was very public knowledge that boylen had issues w/ coby's defense. i was fortunate to not watch much bulls coverage this season, and even i knew that

[dice]

Except that isn’t how the game works in 2020. “Point guards” arent really a thing anymore

if there's any position that remains in basketball, it's the point guard. they're just not as essential as they used to be, assuming that you have a number of players that can handle the ball and make good decisions to give flow to the offense

By your logic, the warriors should’ve scrapped the idea of Thompson/Curry playing together. Portland, same thing. “Two ball dominant guards, neither of whom is an elite passer? Pass”

klay thompson is about as far from a "ball dominant" guard as you can get. and that's a unicorn backcourt. having willing passers like draymond and durant helping to facilitate offense only enhances the uniqueness of that situation. it's fatally flawed thinking to try and reproduce it

as for the blazers, lillard was 5th in the league in APG this season. he's a terrific scorer, but he's also most certainly a "point guard." assists per game:

8.0 lillard
4.4 mccollum

the roles are distinct

What matters is a coach that can teach ball movement & how to score within the flow of an offense

true. if you have the personnel to execute a motion offense, the need for a "show runner" point guard goes down. see golden state

Damien Lillard is a terrible example. He averaged 8 assist THIS YEAR. The guy is in his prime. Had better players to pass to. But despite that he averages 6 assist for his career.

so he wasn't getting more assists in the past because his teammates weren't good enough? that doesn't help your argument that he's not really a "point guard." and you wanna go with career numbers? fine:

6.5 lillard
3.1 mccollum

once again, the roles are distinct. lillard is the "point guard", mccollum is the "shooting guard"

6.6 curry
2.3 thompson

same story

curry and chris paul are the most effective point guards of their generation. one is an elite scorer who can pass pretty well, one is an elite passer who can score pretty well

[The Chosen one]

if he wasn't bad on defense he would have been a starter on day 1. but he was bad:

https://hoopshabit.com/2020/04/15/chicago-bulls-coby-white-starter/

No the bulls wanted to ease him in. Majority of the rookies start out bad but he improved and played very good defense towards the end of the middle and end of the season.

i just showed you some of the numbers. there's no way to explain away, for example, players feasting on him in ISO. and it was very public knowledge that boylen had issues w/ coby's defense. i was fortunate to not watch much bulls coverage this season, and even i knew that

I think it’s obvious that you didn’t watch bulls games this year. I don’t care what stats say because they don’t tell the whole story. I’m a stats guy and I can show you all type of stats that don’t match up with reality. And you are making things up about Boylen having trouble with Cobys defense. Maybe at the beginning of the season like most every rookie. But if you watched the games the announcers and Kendall Gill, Perdue, and Goff was constantly talking about how white competes and the effort he showed on defense. He was actually making good rotations as well. Was he all level? No but he was far from a liability. I’m not trying to be rude but try not to post numbers and stats if you don’t watch games because you end up not knowing what you talking about.

[The Chosen one]

if there's any position that remains in basketball, it's the point guard. they're just not as essential as they used to be, assuming that you have a number of players that can handle the ball and make good decisions to give flow to the offense


klay thompson is about as far from a "ball dominant" guard as you can get. and that's a unicorn backcourt. having willing passers like draymond and durant helping to facilitate offense only enhances the uniqueness of that situation. it's fatally flawed thinking to try and reproduce it

as for the blazers, lillard was 5th in the league in APG this season. he's a terrific scorer, but he's also most certainly a "point guard." assists per game:

8.0 lillard
4.4 mccollum

the roles are distinct


true. if you have the personnel to execute a motion offense, the need for a "show runner" point guard goes down. see golden state

Damien Lillard is a terrible example. He averaged 8 assist THIS YEAR. The guy is in his prime. Had better players to pass to. But despite that he averages 6 assist for his career.

so he wasn't getting more assists in the past because his teammates weren't good enough? that doesn't help your argument that he's not really a "point guard." and you wanna go with career numbers? fine:

6.5 lillard
3.1 mccollum

once again, the roles are distinct. lillard is the "point guard", mccollum is the "shooting guard"

6.6 curry
2.3 thompson

same story

curry and chris paul are the most effective point guards of their generation. one is an elite scorer who can pass pretty well, one is an elite passer who can score pretty well

Oh man this is crazy!! Nobody is arguing that Lillard is not a point guard. But he is not a high assist guy and he doesn’t need to be. The dude had seasons where he averaged 5 assist a game. The guy had a good assist year but he’s 30 years old and is in his prime. What I’m saying is he had more assists options than anybody the bulls had this season. Coby during his hot streak and when he finally was allowed to play point guard full time was getting around 5-6 assist a game, before the season ended abruptly . Not saying Coby will ever be a Chris Paul or Steve Nash. But in a full time of role and more experience I can see him getting 5-6 assist a game.

[TeamMan]

WCJ will never start at PF. He’s not a PF. At all.

Billy D knows better.

Sorry, this was a "What if..." scenario.

In this case "What if the Bulls traded Lauri?"

Then the only reason that I could see that happening is if they plan to play WCJ at PF.

So, logically, the reverse would also apply.

If the Bulls don't trade Lauri, then WCJ will not play PF (as I said in my previous post).

If the Bulls trade Lauri it’s because they got a good deal and Lauri would be replaced at PF w a pick, FA, or Thad. Not WCJ.

Even Thibs with his jumbo lineups wouldn’t play WCJ at PF.

Anyone who plays WCJ at PF is not an NBA coach... surprised Boylen didn’t... which proves my point.

Very simple....

I disagree.

A NBA coach is not limited by what other people think. They make their own decisions.

That's where Boylen was a total failure. He placed other people's decisions before winning and it cost him his job.

And I'm relatively sure that Donavan will not make that same mistake.

[drosereturn]

Sorry, this was a "What if..." scenario.

In this case "What if the Bulls traded Lauri?"

Then the only reason that I could see that happening is if they plan to play WCJ at PF.

So, logically, the reverse would also apply.

If the Bulls don't trade Lauri, then WCJ will not play PF (as I said in my previous post).

If the Bulls trade Lauri it’s because they got a good deal and Lauri would be replaced at PF w a pick, FA, or Thad. Not WCJ.

Even Thibs with his jumbo lineups wouldn’t play WCJ at PF.

Anyone who plays WCJ at PF is not an NBA coach... surprised Boylen didn’t... which proves my point.

Very simple....

I disagree.

A NBA coach is not limited by what other people think. They make their own decisions.

That's where Boylen was a total failure. He placed other people's decisions before winning and it cost him his job.

And I'm relatively sure that Donavan will not make that same mistake.

Donovan is a players coach and knows Carter personally I see him and Lauri getting the most leash. If Ak think Lauri is a 5 which I think he is and Carter is truly a 4, they will switch but only if Carter shows something. We will se if hes telling the truth bc theres no more faking injuries.

[drosereturn]

No the bulls wanted to ease him in. Majority of the rookies start out bad but he improved and played very good defense towards the end of the middle and end of the season.

i just showed you some of the numbers. there's no way to explain away, for example, players feasting on him in ISO. and it was very public knowledge that boylen had issues w/ coby's defense. i was fortunate to not watch much bulls coverage this season, and even i knew that

I think it’s obvious that you didn’t watch bulls games this year. I don’t care what stats say because they don’t tell the whole story. I’m a stats guy and I can show you all type of stats that don’t match up with reality. And you are making things up about Boylen having trouble with Cobys defense. Maybe at the beginning of the season like most every rookie. But if you watched the games the announcers and Kendall Gill, Perdue, and Goff was constantly talking about how white competes and the effort he showed on defense. He was actually making good rotations as well. Was he all level? No but he was far from a liability. I’m not trying to be rude but try not to post numbers and stats if you don’t watch games because you end up not knowing what you talking about.

Hmm just bc your bullish on a guy if you cant provide factual evidence you will lose debate bc this is a forum. I clearly see he tries hard but thats mostly bc his offense sucked so hard he realized he had to make up for. He shows energy but I dont think hes Herro where he will score 40 and still guard the best guy.

So im worried if he avges those huge number and become so good be benches Lavine best scenario, he night pull a Harden and refuse to play defense claiming he used all energy he cant move. White simply doesnt have the stamnia to be a two way player nor the athleticsm, physical measurement. Not an ideal guy to build.

[sco]

i just showed you some of the numbers. there's no way to explain away, for example, players feasting on him in ISO. and it was very public knowledge that boylen had issues w/ coby's defense. i was fortunate to not watch much bulls coverage this season, and even i knew that

I think it’s obvious that you didn’t watch bulls games this year. I don’t care what stats say because they don’t tell the whole story. I’m a stats guy and I can show you all type of stats that don’t match up with reality. And you are making things up about Boylen having trouble with Cobys defense. Maybe at the beginning of the season like most every rookie. But if you watched the games the announcers and Kendall Gill, Perdue, and Goff was constantly talking about how white competes and the effort he showed on defense. He was actually making good rotations as well. Was he all level? No but he was far from a liability. I’m not trying to be rude but try not to post numbers and stats if you don’t watch games because you end up not knowing what you talking about.

Hmm just bc your bullish on a guy if you cant provide factual evidence you will lose debate bc this is a forum. I clearly see he tries hard but thats mostly bc his offense sucked so hard he realized he had to make up for. He shows energy but I dont think hes Herro where he will score 40 and still guard the best guy.

So im worried if he avges those huge number and become so good be benches Lavine best scenario, he night pull a Harden and refuse to play defense claiming he used all energy he cant move. White simply doesnt have the stamnia to be a two way player nor the athleticsm, physical measurement. Not an ideal guy to build.

I'm with The Chosen one, Coby's defense by midseason was above average for a rookie. I don't think he'll have an issue becoming at least an NBA average defender in the next year or two.

[Dez]

i just showed you some of the numbers. there's no way to explain away, for example, players feasting on him in ISO. and it was very public knowledge that boylen had issues w/ coby's defense. i was fortunate to not watch much bulls coverage this season, and even i knew that

I think it’s obvious that you didn’t watch bulls games this year. I don’t care what stats say because they don’t tell the whole story. I’m a stats guy and I can show you all type of stats that don’t match up with reality. And you are making things up about Boylen having trouble with Cobys defense. Maybe at the beginning of the season like most every rookie. But if you watched the games the announcers and Kendall Gill, Perdue, and Goff was constantly talking about how white competes and the effort he showed on defense. He was actually making good rotations as well. Was he all level? No but he was far from a liability. I’m not trying to be rude but try not to post numbers and stats if you don’t watch games because you end up not knowing what you talking about.

Hmm just bc your bullish on a guy if you cant provide factual evidence you will lose debate bc this is a forum. I clearly see he tries hard but thats mostly bc his offense sucked so hard he realized he had to make up for. He shows energy but I dont think hes Herro where he will score 40 and still guard the best guy.

So im worried if he avges those huge number and become so good be benches Lavine best scenario, he night pull a Harden and refuse to play defense claiming he used all energy he cant move. White simply doesnt have the stamnia to be a two way player nor the athleticsm, physical measurement. Not an ideal guy to build.

Like Lauri being a "generational shooter"?

White was an 19 year old rookie, of course he was going to struggle with stamina. You're making these wild assumptions based on the play of a 19 year old rookie, a lot of them incorrect assumptions by the way.