2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[cjbulls]

The hidden pick is Lamelo they need to promise him at 4 or even trade up if it costs Gafford.
Most top teams will shun him bc of the Ball family issue and Lonzo didnt go well.
Ak has to exploit that situation to his favor and order Lavar he wont get drafted unless from the Bulls like MPJ did.

Gafford will not move you up from 4. He would barely move you up from 4 in the second round.

I disagree. He’s locked up at the min. for 3 more years. GSW needs a center; Gafford makes sense. Everybody’s mock completely changes every 2 days.

You really think a second round pick from last year, one who did not receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all rookie, and who plays a diminished value position, is going to be worth a top-4 protected FRP?

GSW doesn't care about money btw too. They had a weird hard cap this year, but that is gone now and they have made it clear money is no object the next few years.

Sometimes this board is too much.

[Andi Obst]

Come on now, you're not moving up by trading Daniel Gafford. That's just ridiculous.

[MrSparkle]

Gafford will not move you up from 4. He would barely move you up from 4 in the second round.

I disagree. He’s locked up at the min. for 3 more years. GSW needs a center; Gafford makes sense. Everybody’s mock completely changes every 2 days.

You really think a second round pick from last year, one who did not receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all rookie, and who plays a diminished value position, is going to be worth a top-4 protected FRP?

GSW doesn't care about money btw too. They had a weird hard cap this year, but that is gone now and they have made it clear money is no object the next few years.

Sometimes this board is too much.

First off, who cares whether he was a 2nd rd pick? He probably goes top-15 in a re-draft.

The reason it’s not an outrageous/unreasonable offer is because 95% of the public can’t agree on a top-5 mock. Meaning, there is no clear-cut objective ranking of these players; GS may be genuinely set on Okoro or Deni, sooner than Wiseman or Ball. If so, getting Gafford is better than just drafting higher than necessary, paying more salary and not getting a bonus.

Gafford is a good prospect. Very raw, but potentially makes a high impact. He needs development.

[cjbulls]

I disagree. He’s locked up at the min. for 3 more years. GSW needs a center; Gafford makes sense. Everybody’s mock completely changes every 2 days.

You really think a second round pick from last year, one who did not receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all rookie, and who plays a diminished value position, is going to be worth a top-4 protected FRP?

GSW doesn't care about money btw too. They had a weird hard cap this year, but that is gone now and they have made it clear money is no object the next few years.

Sometimes this board is too much.

First off, who cares whether he was a 2nd rd pick? He probably goes top-15 in a re-draft.

The reason it’s not an outrageous/unreasonable offer is because 95% of the public can’t agree on a top-5 mock. Meaning, there is no clear-cut objective ranking of these players; GS may be genuinely set on Okoro or Deni, sooner than Wiseman or Ball. If so, getting Gafford is better than just drafting higher than necessary, paying more salary and not getting a bonus.

Gafford is a good prospect. Very raw, but potentially makes a high impact. He needs development.

So if there’s no clear cut way to tell who is going where, why risk trading down?

And again, he got zero votes for first and second team all rookie. So he’s not even in the top 10 (not even counting the other guys receiving votes), despite being an older prospect with higher floor and less upside.

Given he’s a center, there are a bunch of minimum salary guys that GS can sign that will get you similar production to Gafford.

[MrSparkle]

You really think a second round pick from last year, one who did not receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all rookie, and who plays a diminished value position, is going to be worth a top-4 protected FRP?

GSW doesn't care about money btw too. They had a weird hard cap this year, but that is gone now and they have made it clear money is no object the next few years.

Sometimes this board is too much.

First off, who cares whether he was a 2nd rd pick? He probably goes top-15 in a re-draft.

The reason it’s not an outrageous/unreasonable offer is because 95% of the public can’t agree on a top-5 mock. Meaning, there is no clear-cut objective ranking of these players; GS may be genuinely set on Okoro or Deni, sooner than Wiseman or Ball. If so, getting Gafford is better than just drafting higher than necessary, paying more salary and not getting a bonus.

Gafford is a good prospect. Very raw, but potentially makes a high impact. He needs development.

So if there’s no clear cut way to tell who is going where, why risk trading down?

And again, he got zero votes for first and second team all rookie. So he’s not even in the top 10 (not even counting the other guys receiving votes), despite being an older prospect with higher floor and less upside.

Well we’ll agree to disagree. Like every other player on this roster, after a year of Boylen, I don’t think we have a clear picture of Gafford. As far as my eyes went, he committed a lot of fouls, errors and is a very unpolished center, but his raw jumping ability, timing, and strength are basically elite. If he gets the right opportunity, ie GSW playing a 20mpg energy role, the guy’s stock shoots up to the sky.

Given he’s a center, there are a bunch of minimum salary guys that GS can sign that will get you similar production to Gafford.

Everyone says this, and it’s true to an extent, but it is an element of timing and luck. Lakers lucked out with D. Howard, cause of it was just McGee, they’d be screwed out of these playoffs.

Marc Gasol doesn’t look like he’ll be helping an NBA team anymore. Maybe for 15 mpg, but he sure isn’t addressing defense and shot blocking for a Warriors team that is much older and athletic than they were when they won their first ring.

I think Wiseman is a big risk, but GS does need to refresh its center rotation. If they want to contend in this 2y window, they need a versatile center rotation. IMO Gafford would fit that bench really well if they could sign Baynes with the MMLE. Or Whiteside, Zeller- but do they want to spend exceptions on basically backup centers? Maybe Kanter, Plumlee, Leonard sign for the min, but these guys don’t address the athletic rim protector category.

Guys like Chriss, WCJ ended up being useless. Cousins’ injuries compiled. Gafford has some interesting potential and addresses some needs. If they develop him, he’s also good trade bait.

And this is all basically to swap down 2 spots in a draft where no one can even decide whether the #1 pick is gonna be better than the 15th pick. The Bulls need a high ceiling project and can take time with his development - #2 addresses that better than #4.

[PhilLeotardo]

Gafford will not move you up from 4. He would barely move you up from 4 in the second round.

I disagree. He’s locked up at the min. for 3 more years. GSW needs a center; Gafford makes sense. Everybody’s mock completely changes every 2 days.

You really think a second round pick from last year, one who did not receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all rookie, and who plays a diminished value position, is going to be worth a top-4 protected FRP?

GSW doesn't care about money btw too. They had a weird hard cap this year, but that is gone now and they have made it clear money is no object the next few years.

Sometimes this board is too much.

Ehh, lots of teams say “money isn’t an issue” in order to keep peace amongst staff. I could definitely see the warriors pumping the brakes on the spending here pretty soon. This core isn’t getting any younger & they are a medium-sized city’s team who’s current revenue won’t last forever. They’d be stupid to continue to invest heavily in this core. Thompson will never be the same & Curry likely won’t either. I’m not sure why people take things owners/GMs say seriously

[PhilLeotardo]

Gafford is absolutely getting underrated on this board, for sure

One quality thing PaxGar did prior to their unceremonious, globally-celebrated exit, was absolutely nail the 2019 draft

Coby White would have been the ROTY on Miami, and Gafford would have been a mighty contributor. But they got drafted by one of the worst, most broken systems in the league, with zero record of proper development, and one of the worst coaching staffs/environments in pro sports

Gafford is going to be pretty darn good eventually

[cjbulls]

Gafford is absolutely getting underrated on this board, for sure

One quality thing PaxGar did prior to their unceremonious, globally-celebrated exit, was absolutely nail the 2019 draft

Coby White would have been the ROTY on Miami, and Gafford would have been a mighty contributor. But they got drafted by one of the worst, most broken systems in the league, with zero record of proper development, and one of the worst coaching staffs/environments in pro sports

Gafford is going to be pretty darn good eventually

He is a fine player but he's not underrated. The trade market for centers is essentially zero unless you are Jokic or Embiid. Gafford's upside is a starting quality center that you need to surround with 4 shooters to make it work.

His best case scenario is Clint Capela. The same guy the Rockets could barely bring themselves to sign, and then promptly traded him for Robert Covington. Again, best case scenario

[cjbulls]

I disagree. He’s locked up at the min. for 3 more years. GSW needs a center; Gafford makes sense. Everybody’s mock completely changes every 2 days.

You really think a second round pick from last year, one who did not receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all rookie, and who plays a diminished value position, is going to be worth a top-4 protected FRP?

GSW doesn't care about money btw too. They had a weird hard cap this year, but that is gone now and they have made it clear money is no object the next few years.

Sometimes this board is too much.

Ehh, lots of teams say “money isn’t an issue” in order to keep peace amongst staff. I could definitely see the warriors pumping the brakes on the spending here pretty soon. This core isn’t getting any younger & they are a medium-sized city’s team who’s current revenue won’t last forever. They’d be stupid to continue to invest heavily in this core. Thompson will never be the same & Curry likely won’t either. I’m not sure why people take things owners/GMs say seriously

It's not about what they said. You laid out exactly why they are spending. They have a few years left on their good players, so why bother bringing along Gafford? They are using their trade exceptions and picks to land big fish, the opposite of Gafford.

[cjbulls]

First off, who cares whether he was a 2nd rd pick? He probably goes top-15 in a re-draft.

The reason it’s not an outrageous/unreasonable offer is because 95% of the public can’t agree on a top-5 mock. Meaning, there is no clear-cut objective ranking of these players; GS may be genuinely set on Okoro or Deni, sooner than Wiseman or Ball. If so, getting Gafford is better than just drafting higher than necessary, paying more salary and not getting a bonus.

Gafford is a good prospect. Very raw, but potentially makes a high impact. He needs development.

So if there’s no clear cut way to tell who is going where, why risk trading down?

And again, he got zero votes for first and second team all rookie. So he’s not even in the top 10 (not even counting the other guys receiving votes), despite being an older prospect with higher floor and less upside.

Well we’ll agree to disagree. Like every other player on this roster, after a year of Boylen, I don’t think we have a clear picture of Gafford. As far as my eyes went, he committed a lot of fouls, errors and is a very unpolished center, but his raw jumping ability, timing, and strength are basically elite. If he gets the right opportunity, ie GSW playing a 20mpg energy role, the guy’s stock shoots up to the sky.

Given he’s a center, there are a bunch of minimum salary guys that GS can sign that will get you similar production to Gafford.

Everyone says this, and it’s true to an extent, but it is an element of timing and luck. Lakers lucked out with D. Howard, cause of it was just McGee, they’d be screwed out of these playoffs.

Marc Gasol doesn’t look like he’ll be helping an NBA team anymore. Maybe for 15 mpg, but he sure isn’t addressing defense and shot blocking for a Warriors team that is much older and athletic than they were when they won their first ring.

I think Wiseman is a big risk, but GS does need to refresh its center rotation. If they want to contend in this 2y window, they need a versatile center rotation. IMO Gafford would fit that bench really well if they could sign Baynes with the MMLE. Or Whiteside, Zeller- but do they want to spend exceptions on basically backup centers? Maybe Kanter, Plumlee, Leonard sign for the min, but these guys don’t address the athletic rim protector category.

Guys like Chriss, WCJ ended up being useless. Cousins’ injuries compiled. Gafford has some interesting potential and addresses some needs. If they develop him, he’s also good trade bait.

And this is all basically to swap down 2 spots in a draft where no one can even decide whether the #1 pick is gonna be better than the 15th pick. The Bulls need a high ceiling project and can take time with his development - #2 addresses that better than #4.

Yeah, you're right. While we're at it, we should talk to Minny. I can see them giving up #1 for Hutch.

[MrSparkle]

Gafford is absolutely getting underrated on this board, for sure

One quality thing PaxGar did prior to their unceremonious, globally-celebrated exit, was absolutely nail the 2019 draft

Coby White would have been the ROTY on Miami, and Gafford would have been a mighty contributor. But they got drafted by one of the worst, most broken systems in the league, with zero record of proper development, and one of the worst coaching staffs/environments in pro sports

Gafford is going to be pretty darn good eventually

He is a fine player but he's not underrated. The trade market for centers is essentially zero unless you are Jokic or Embiid. Gafford's upside is a starting quality center that you need to surround with 4 shooters to make it work.

His best case scenario is Clint Capela. The same guy the Rockets could barely bring themselves to sign, and then promptly traded him for Robert Covington. Again, best case scenario

$1m vs $15m

Capela was a great, important piece for HOU until that RFA contract.

[MrSparkle]

So if there’s no clear cut way to tell who is going where, why risk trading down?

And again, he got zero votes for first and second team all rookie. So he’s not even in the top 10 (not even counting the other guys receiving votes), despite being an older prospect with higher floor and less upside.

Well we’ll agree to disagree. Like every other player on this roster, after a year of Boylen, I don’t think we have a clear picture of Gafford. As far as my eyes went, he committed a lot of fouls, errors and is a very unpolished center, but his raw jumping ability, timing, and strength are basically elite. If he gets the right opportunity, ie GSW playing a 20mpg energy role, the guy’s stock shoots up to the sky.

Given he’s a center, there are a bunch of minimum salary guys that GS can sign that will get you similar production to Gafford.

Everyone says this, and it’s true to an extent, but it is an element of timing and luck. Lakers lucked out with D. Howard, cause of it was just McGee, they’d be screwed out of these playoffs.

Marc Gasol doesn’t look like he’ll be helping an NBA team anymore. Maybe for 15 mpg, but he sure isn’t addressing defense and shot blocking for a Warriors team that is much older and athletic than they were when they won their first ring.

I think Wiseman is a big risk, but GS does need to refresh its center rotation. If they want to contend in this 2y window, they need a versatile center rotation. IMO Gafford would fit that bench really well if they could sign Baynes with the MMLE. Or Whiteside, Zeller- but do they want to spend exceptions on basically backup centers? Maybe Kanter, Plumlee, Leonard sign for the min, but these guys don’t address the athletic rim protector category.

Guys like Chriss, WCJ ended up being useless. Cousins’ injuries compiled. Gafford has some interesting potential and addresses some needs. If they develop him, he’s also good trade bait.

And this is all basically to swap down 2 spots in a draft where no one can even decide whether the #1 pick is gonna be better than the 15th pick. The Bulls need a high ceiling project and can take time with his development - #2 addresses that better than #4.

Yeah, you're right. While we're at it, we should talk to Minny. I can see them giving up #1 for Hutch.

Yeah. Except i’m talking about #2, a better (healthier, cheaper, and longer-signed) prospect in Gafford than Hutch, and better trade partners.

While we’re at nonsensical analogies, maybe we should trade LaVine for Kawhi Leonard.

[PhilLeotardo]

Gafford is absolutely getting underrated on this board, for sure

One quality thing PaxGar did prior to their unceremonious, globally-celebrated exit, was absolutely nail the 2019 draft

Coby White would have been the ROTY on Miami, and Gafford would have been a mighty contributor. But they got drafted by one of the worst, most broken systems in the league, with zero record of proper development, and one of the worst coaching staffs/environments in pro sports

Gafford is going to be pretty darn good eventually

He is a fine player but he's not underrated. The trade market for centers is essentially zero unless you are Jokic or Embiid. Gafford's upside is a starting quality center that you need to surround with 4 shooters to make it work.

His best case scenario is Clint Capela. The same guy the Rockets could barely bring themselves to sign, and then promptly traded him for Robert Covington. Again, best case scenario

I think it’s impossible to make a projection like that with someone so young & raw. He seems to have a great work ethic. For all we know, he starts to develop some legit offensive savvy eventually. It probably won’t happen, but the upside imo is there. Guys develop like wildfire nowadays, we’ve seen raw players make unprecedented leaps lately & it’ll only become more dramatic from here on out

I stand by the fact that he’s getting underrated. It isn’t really saying much though, because every player is underrated on this board. The entire league views Coby white as one of the next great backcourt forces in the NBA. Bulls fans are the only ones who think otherwise

And Capela was a spectacular player. Injuries did him in.

[cjbulls]

Well we’ll agree to disagree. Like every other player on this roster, after a year of Boylen, I don’t think we have a clear picture of Gafford. As far as my eyes went, he committed a lot of fouls, errors and is a very unpolished center, but his raw jumping ability, timing, and strength are basically elite. If he gets the right opportunity, ie GSW playing a 20mpg energy role, the guy’s stock shoots up to the sky.



Everyone says this, and it’s true to an extent, but it is an element of timing and luck. Lakers lucked out with D. Howard, cause of it was just McGee, they’d be screwed out of these playoffs.

Marc Gasol doesn’t look like he’ll be helping an NBA team anymore. Maybe for 15 mpg, but he sure isn’t addressing defense and shot blocking for a Warriors team that is much older and athletic than they were when they won their first ring.

I think Wiseman is a big risk, but GS does need to refresh its center rotation. If they want to contend in this 2y window, they need a versatile center rotation. IMO Gafford would fit that bench really well if they could sign Baynes with the MMLE. Or Whiteside, Zeller- but do they want to spend exceptions on basically backup centers? Maybe Kanter, Plumlee, Leonard sign for the min, but these guys don’t address the athletic rim protector category.

Guys like Chriss, WCJ ended up being useless. Cousins’ injuries compiled. Gafford has some interesting potential and addresses some needs. If they develop him, he’s also good trade bait.

And this is all basically to swap down 2 spots in a draft where no one can even decide whether the #1 pick is gonna be better than the 15th pick. The Bulls need a high ceiling project and can take time with his development - #2 addresses that better than #4.

Yeah, you're right. While we're at it, we should talk to Minny. I can see them giving up #1 for Hutch.

Yeah. Except i’m talking about #2, a better (healthier, cheaper, and longer-signed) prospect in Gafford than Hutch, and better trade partners.

While we’re at nonsensical analogies, maybe we should trade LaVine for Kawhi Leonard.

Exactly, let's keep it going. Lauri for Luka? You'd get laughed off the phone offering Gafford. If he was as promising a prospect as you want to boost him up to be, then you wouldn't want to trade him.

[cjbulls]

Gafford is absolutely getting underrated on this board, for sure

One quality thing PaxGar did prior to their unceremonious, globally-celebrated exit, was absolutely nail the 2019 draft

Coby White would have been the ROTY on Miami, and Gafford would have been a mighty contributor. But they got drafted by one of the worst, most broken systems in the league, with zero record of proper development, and one of the worst coaching staffs/environments in pro sports

Gafford is going to be pretty darn good eventually

He is a fine player but he's not underrated. The trade market for centers is essentially zero unless you are Jokic or Embiid. Gafford's upside is a starting quality center that you need to surround with 4 shooters to make it work.

His best case scenario is Clint Capela. The same guy the Rockets could barely bring themselves to sign, and then promptly traded him for Robert Covington. Again, best case scenario

I think it’s impossible to make a projection like that with someone so young & raw. He seems to have a great work ethic. For all we know, he starts to develop some legit offensive savvy eventually. It probably won’t happen, but the upside imo is there. Guys develop like wildfire nowadays, we’ve seen raw players make unprecedented leaps lately & it’ll only become more dramatic from here on out

I stand by the fact that he’s getting underrated. It isn’t really saying much though, because every player is underrated on this board. The entire league views Coby white as one of the next great backcourt forces in the NBA. Bulls fans are the only ones who think otherwise

And Capela was a spectacular player. Injuries did him in.

Then why was he a second round pick? By your logic, everyone has elite potential.

Gafford is only a few months younger than Lauri. He also has a limited, albeit useful, skill set. Pump him up all you want, but you're overstating his value.

[Dez]

Gafford is getting overrated.

He's a good energy bench big.

[PhilLeotardo]

Technically no one knows what Gafford will be. He was projected as a lotto pick prior to him not showing any improvement. He very well could be a late bloomer. The drive & athleticism is there

[Dez]

Technically no one knows what Gafford will be. He was projected as a lotto pick prior to him not showing any improvement. He very well could be a late bloomer. The drive & athleticism is there

The reason he fell to the second round was because he has no offensive game to speak, he's a lob threat and that's it on offense.

[MrSparkle]

Technically no one knows what Gafford will be. He was projected as a lotto pick prior to him not showing any improvement. He very well could be a late bloomer. The drive & athleticism is there

The reason he fell to the second round was because he has no offensive game to speak, he's a lob threat and that's it on offense.

Sounds like Wiseman and Okongwu tbh. Ok fine- these two project to have more offensive potential, yet until we see them in the NBA, it’s high-risk/low-reward banking on a center’s offensive potential.

Seeing as the best-impact centers these days are above-the-rim lob threats and dunkers, besides for Jokic and Embiid, I don’t see why this is a bad thing. Do you prefer Kornet?

[MrSparkle]

I don’t even know why I’m debating Gafford’s value in a 2/4 swap. I don’t even think I want Wiseman or LaMelo over Hayes, Deni, Okoro and about 5 other guys in this draft.

Are you guys suggesting that trading up from 4 to 2 is a big deal in this draft?

I’m merely saying it might make sense for both sides, if GS has their guy at #4 (Deni/Okoro) and AK wants to go with one of the high-risk/high-ceiling prospects.

It’s a very common move in unclear drafts - Khryapa/4 for 2 (Aldridge) to refresh your memories. Not one prospect here comes close to Luka or even Fultz.