2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Herro has more shooting upside, that’s not the same thing as scoring upside.

He has more scoring upside too.

Deni has no shake whatsoever.

"Shake" isn't the only way to score and Herro cannot do a lot of the things Deni can similar to how Deni cannot shoot the way Herro can.
Herro does not have more scoring upside, he's just the rage right now. Just like when people make the asinine comments that Herro is already a better player than Zach.

If Deni doesn't have shake going to the basket or project as an elite shooter, what's his path to high scoring upside?

[Almost Retired]

Herro has more shooting upside, that’s not the same thing as scoring upside.

He has more scoring upside too.

Deni has no shake whatsoever.

"Shake" isn't the only way to score and Herro cannot do a lot of the things Deni can similar to how Deni cannot shoot the way Herro can.
Herro does not have more scoring upside, he's just the rage right now. Just like when people make the asinine comments that Herro is already a better player than Zach.

I think Deni has the potential to be able to make everyone else on the team more productive offensively. Even if only averaged 10 points a game he could be immensely valuable to our offense as a creator. I share concerns that he's stepping up pretty far in terms of competition. But from what I read he is true hooping gym rat, an extremely hard worker. He has the drive to be able to improve, both his game and his NBA body. He's my top pick right now. If he isn't available I'd entertain offers to move down a few slots and take Vassell and an asset. Vassell fills a position of need. OPJ does not fit into our long term salary structure. And he and The Promise are just too injury prone. I love Vassell's BB IQ and court awareness on defense. He's got decent length. Not freakish, but defensively effective. He knows how and when to switch in multiple situations. He might never be a star but he could be a very effective 3&D guy, similar to Mikal Bridges, but younger. I was high on Bridges last year. And he started off slow like a lot of rookies. But by the end of the season he was playing some good ball. This is not a superstar draft as far as what we can see from here. So maybe the best we can hope for is getting a court aware high BB IQ eventual starter. I don't think Vassell will last past the Knicks at #8. I could also live with Hayes. But I'm not interested in Topin. And I'd only be interested in Wiseman if we had a deal to trade Carter. Carter want's to play the 4. So if we take Wiseman we need to move Carter or Lauri.

[drosereturn]

I don’t even know why I’m debating Gafford’s value in a 2/4 swap. I don’t even think I want Wiseman or LaMelo over Hayes, Deni, Okoro and about 5 other guys in this draft.

Are you guys suggesting that trading up from 4 to 2 is a big deal in this draft?

I’m merely saying it might make sense for both sides, if GS has their guy at #4 (Deni/Okoro) and AK wants to go with one of the high-risk/high-ceiling prospects.

It’s a very common move in unclear drafts - Khryapa/4 for 2 (Aldridge) to refresh your memories. Not one prospect here comes close to Luka or even Fultz.

Because if you want Ball or Edwards you need 2 to gurantee. Gafford is not overpay for moving 2 spots. He was a 2nd rounder and he already inflated several times if it means a top pick.

Although I value him very highly as starting center im not confident Bulls can get 3 all stars while he makes 1mil. Rather sacrifice him to find that star. Hes already projected to be better than gs, boston starting center but Bulls nowhere have Tatum, brown, hayward, kemba etc.

[TheSuzerain]

He has more scoring upside too.

Deni has no shake whatsoever.

"Shake" isn't the only way to score and Herro cannot do a lot of the things Deni can similar to how Deni cannot shoot the way Herro can.
Herro does not have more scoring upside, he's just the rage right now. Just like when people make the asinine comments that Herro is already a better player than Zach.

If Deni doesn't have shake going to the basket or project as an elite shooter, what's his path to high scoring upside?

Engage cognitive dissonance in Deni supporters

[Andi Obst]

Hes already projected to be better than gs, boston starting center

I'm sorry, but did Gafford do something during the break that completely changed who he is? That's crazy talk. He wouldn't see a single second on the Celtics or a Warriors team that tries to win again. Sure, he could eventually become a role player even for a good team, but right now he offers nothing you can't replace with a minimum guy.

[cjbulls]

Howabout #4 for Cam Reddish + Couple of 2nds?

It's one of those things where if Atlanta is actually interested in that deal, then you don't want Reddish.

[TheSuzerain]

Redish has no upside beyond being a good role player. hard pass

[PlayerUp]

Herro has more shooting upside, that’s not the same thing as scoring upside.

He has more scoring upside too.

Deni has no shake whatsoever.

"Shake" isn't the only way to score and Herro cannot do a lot of the things Deni can similar to how Deni cannot shoot the way Herro can.
Herro does not have more scoring upside, he's just the rage right now. Just like when people make the asinine comments that Herro is already a better player than Zach.

You're underestimating Herro. Herro has star mentally (not superstar) who once he becomes a more efficient could be a 20+ PPG scorer in the NBA. All it takes is Herro developing a more consistent shot which seems very duoable based on his past progress.

Deni while I think will eventually develop a decent shot in the NBA doesn't have the scoring upside Herro has. What you get with Deni is everything else from defense, playmaking and versatility.

[PlayerUp]

Redish has no upside beyond being a good role player. hard pass

It's all mental with Reddish. Has has all the tools to be a star but you're right will likely never be more than a role player. Was just seeing what people thought of Reddish.

[wolffy]

Howabout #4 for Cam Reddish + Couple of 2nds?

Reddish is supremely talented but struggles making shots even tho his stroke seems good. Id consider the trade tbh. I just dont know which of these guys at 4 are gonna hit.

[Chi town]

He has more scoring upside too.

Deni has no shake whatsoever.

"Shake" isn't the only way to score and Herro cannot do a lot of the things Deni can similar to how Deni cannot shoot the way Herro can.
Herro does not have more scoring upside, he's just the rage right now. Just like when people make the asinine comments that Herro is already a better player than Zach.

If Deni doesn't have shake going to the basket or project as an elite shooter, what's his path to high scoring upside?

Herro is trending towards an elite shot creator and maker. Deni is no where close to that. Herro was t coming in either though. Herro comparisons to Lavine are based on impact on winning and related to his insane offensive IQ and his big jump on defense since beginning of year.

Deni is really good straight line and will be productive attacking close outs. His upside lies in using his size to absorb contact and create space much like Jimmy and Luka do. He also has upside as a shooter that can create 3s much like Tatum w fakes and side steps and step backs.

I love Deni’s tenacity and intensity. My issue is him getting lost in the “team” game of facilitating and not imposing his will on the game. Same could be said with Hayes in a more laid back type of game way.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

"Shake" isn't the only way to score and Herro cannot do a lot of the things Deni can similar to how Deni cannot shoot the way Herro can.
Herro does not have more scoring upside, he's just the rage right now. Just like when people make the asinine comments that Herro is already a better player than Zach.

If Deni doesn't have shake going to the basket or project as an elite shooter, what's his path to high scoring upside?

Herro is trending towards an elite shot creator and maker. Deni is no where close to that. Herro was t coming in either though. Herro comparisons to Lavine are based on impact on winning and related to his insane offensive IQ and his big jump on defense since beginning of year.

Deni is really good straight line and will be productive attacking close outs. His upside lies in using his size to absorb contact and create space much like Jimmy and Luka do. He also has upside as a shooter that can create 3s much like Tatum w fakes and side steps and step backs.

I love Deni’s tenacity and intensity. My issue is him getting lost in the “team” game of facilitating and not imposing his will on the game. Same could be said with Hayes in a more laid back type of game way.

Herro’s had elite shooting indicators going back to HS and a ton of shot creation to go along with his overall floor game. There were concerns about his size/length (which I shared) but the signs were definitely there.

I could see Deni becoming a good NBA finisher, but my concern is how he gets there in the half court. Seems the only way to project him as a high-upside scorer is to compare him to guys who were way better prospects (Tatum, Hayward) or guys who made aberrational jumps in their development after they were drafted (Jimmy).

I just don’t see a linear path to Deni becoming that kind of scorer unless you put stock in his workout videos out of Atlanta that show him doing things he didn’t do as a pro.

Now if someone wanted to make an argument about his non-scoring offensive impact, I guess I can squint and see it. But even there I don’t totally buy his ability to create advantages in the half court.

I won’t be heartbroken if we draft him based on the size, speed and passing. Im definitely in the skeptical camp, though. A lot of the evaluations seem to assume he’ll improve at a bunch of things because he’s not awful at any one thing.

[Chi town]

If Deni doesn't have shake going to the basket or project as an elite shooter, what's his path to high scoring upside?

Herro is trending towards an elite shot creator and maker. Deni is no where close to that. Herro was t coming in either though. Herro comparisons to Lavine are based on impact on winning and related to his insane offensive IQ and his big jump on defense since beginning of year.

Deni is really good straight line and will be productive attacking close outs. His upside lies in using his size to absorb contact and create space much like Jimmy and Luka do. He also has upside as a shooter that can create 3s much like Tatum w fakes and side steps and step backs.

I love Deni’s tenacity and intensity. My issue is him getting lost in the “team” game of facilitating and not imposing his will on the game. Same could be said with Hayes in a more laid back type of game way.

Herro’s had elite shooting indicators going back to HS and a ton of shot creation to go along with his overall floor game. There were concerns about his size/length (which I shared) but the signs were definitely there.

I could see Deni becoming a good NBA finisher, but my concern is how he gets there in the half court. Seems the only way to project him as a high-upside scorer is to compare him to guys who were way better prospects (Tatum, Hayward) or guys who made aberrational jumps in their development after they were drafted (Jimmy).

I just don’t see a linear path to Deni becoming that kind of scorer unless you put stock in his workout videos out of Atlanta that show him doing things he didn’t do as a pro.

Now if someone wanted to make an argument about his non-scoring offensive impact, I guess I can squint and see it. But even there I don’t totally buy his ability to create advantages in the half court.

I won’t be heartbroken if we draft him based on the size, speed and passing. Im definitely in the skeptical camp, though. A lot of the evaluations seem to assume he’ll improve at a bunch of things because he’s not awful at any one thing.

That’s fair.

[MGB8]

Redish has no upside beyond being a good role player. hard pass

Lmao, you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.

Reddish has top 5 player in the NBA upside. Always has.

The question is how likely is he to reach it, and downside if he didn’t get stronger and become more consistent shooting the ball.

[MGB8]

Howabout #4 for Cam Reddish + Couple of 2nds?

Reddish is supremely talented but struggles making shots even tho his stroke seems good. Id consider the trade tbh. I just dont know which of these guys at 4 are gonna hit.

I would do that in a second .. but I doubt Atlanta would. Reddish started showing serious Flashes the second half of the season.

[TheSuzerain]

Redish has no upside beyond being a good role player. hard pass

It's all mental with Reddish. Has has all the tools to be a star but you're right will likely never be more than a role player. Was just seeing what people thought of Reddish.

No he doesn't. He is not very athletic. Which is an essential tool to being a star.

[MGB8]

Redish has no upside beyond being a good role player. hard pass

It's all mental with Reddish. Has has all the tools to be a star but you're right will likely never be more than a role player. Was just seeing what people thought of Reddish.

No he doesn't. He is not very athletic. Which is an essential tool to being a star.

You are simply wrong. Like laughably. He is very athletic - I don’t know what you are talking about, honestly.

There is a reason he was viewed going into college as a potential #1 overall pick.

He is fast, quick, with very high level vertical ability and elite body control.

He just was much weaker than expected (despite an ok, if thin, frame) and was exceptionally inconsistent shooting the ball (partly strength related, including core strength, partly unexplained).

If he never gets consistent shooting and doesn’t get stronger... he will bust. But if he does, he compares to Paul George, a larger stronger longer better defensively Jamal Crawford, or even McGrady. He was a boom/bust pick, not a “low upside” pick.

Doesn’t have quite the mentality to draw Kobe comps, even if the raw skillset and, yes, athleticism isn’t that far off.

[TheSuzerain]

It's all mental with Reddish. Has has all the tools to be a star but you're right will likely never be more than a role player. Was just seeing what people thought of Reddish.

No he doesn't. He is not very athletic. Which is an essential tool to being a star.

You are simply wrong. Like laughably. He is very athletic - I don’t know what you are talking about, honestly.

There is a reason he was viewed going into college as a potential #1 overall pick.

He is fast, quick, with very high level vertical ability and elite body control.

He just was much weaker than expected (despite an ok, if thin, frame) and was exceptionally inconsistent shooting the ball (partly strength related, including core strength, partly unexplained).

If he never gets consistent shooting and doesn’t get stronger... he will bust. But if he does, he compares to Paul George, a larger stronger longer better defensively Jamal Crawford, or even McGrady. He was a boom/bust pick, not a “low upside” pick.

Nah. He's got plus height/wingspan. But his explosiveness/quickness is mediocre. And he's weak physically. And his ball skills are limited.

I like how he projects as a 3/D prospect. But there has never been star upside with Reddish.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Someone suggested Huerter + 6 for 4. I like this, I think one of Hayes or Okoro will be there at 6 anyways. Bulls throw their 2nd rounder or Hutchinson if required.

[MGB8]

No he doesn't. He is not very athletic. Which is an essential tool to being a star.

You are simply wrong. Like laughably. He is very athletic - I don’t know what you are talking about, honestly.

There is a reason he was viewed going into college as a potential #1 overall pick.

He is fast, quick, with very high level vertical ability and elite body control.

He just was much weaker than expected (despite an ok, if thin, frame) and was exceptionally inconsistent shooting the ball (partly strength related, including core strength, partly unexplained).

If he never gets consistent shooting and doesn’t get stronger... he will bust. But if he does, he compares to Paul George, a larger stronger longer better defensively Jamal Crawford, or even McGrady. He was a boom/bust pick, not a “low upside” pick.

Nah. He's got plus height/wingspan. But his explosiveness/quickness is mediocre. And he's weak physically. And his ball skills are limited.

I like how he projects as a 3/D prospect. But there has never been star upside with Reddish.

You are simply wrong. He is an exceptional ball handler. There has always been star upside - confirmed by the vast majority of scouting reports. It seems like you are just making things up.