2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[PaulieWal]

You're not chewing on the stuff I pointed out.

And yes, AD will absolutely be key, and big part of that is his health. AD wasn't hobbling around out there because LeBron was dominating the ball.

Actually LeBron took only 20 shots last night and the last shot he took was that heave with 1.5 seconds left to win the game. So he took 19 shots for all intents and purposes. I don't want to be too aggressive, but that analysis is so far off. I don't even know what to say or want to reply to validate it lol.

So, I want to be clear here that you're really arguing with WarriorGM rather than me. I was accepting his description because I saw truth in it, but I wouldn't want to try to make a point around it.

What is the case is that Van Gundy was saying "Not LeBron" repeatedly for a reason at the end of the game. If you look at the Laker stats in the 4th quarter, LeBron's doing everything for the team including taking a lot of shots. I'm not complaining about any of it, but it was certainly the LeBron show out there at the end.

You're right that LeBron didn't actually take that many shots overall though. It's crazy to think that the whole reason folks think LeBron was dominating his team's offense is because he made so many of those shots. Had he made the shots at a more Iverson level, he'd have been the 2nd leading scorer on his own team and the criticisms would be entirely different, but they'd be no less loud.

No, I am not arguing with you.

Although I believe JVG was saying "not LeBron" not because it was the LeBron show in a bad way but because clearly the Lakers role players were so off and AD was hobbled, so it was more of make anyone but LeBron beat you because he was so red hot from the floor hitting 15 of his 19 shots. To me that's like when before KD showed up, people would say just get the ball out of the hands of Curry or sometimes when the superstar is hot, make the others beat you, not because the superstar is overshadowing others and hurting his team or something which is clearly what WarriorsGM is trying to argue

[Sedale Threatt]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions.

??? No, it does not.

I don't know what that poster is talking about. First of all LeBron was the only reason that game was even close tonight last night. And he only took what 21 shots? And hit 15 of them. Secondly, the Lakers lost this game because their role players were absolutely trash last night. LeBron and AD did what they had to do but if your role players stink it up like that, it's hard to win. Not because he's Westbrook or overshadowing the others. How do people even come up with analysis like that?

To follow this up, everybody not named LeBron and Davis shot 31 percent on nearly 50 attempts. That is an enormous amount of dead weight to carry. Somebody posted on Twitter last night that the Lakers were 0 for 6 off LeBron passes in the 4th, with four being completely wide open. Sometimes you get John Paxson or Robert Horry. Sometimes you get Danny Green and Markieff Morris.

It's pretty hard to lose a game in which your top two players score an ultra-efficient 68 points, but we somehow managed to do it. This is a game I've been dreading all playoffs, because while we certainly have guys who can step up and make shots, you just have no idea what you're going to get on a game-to-game basis. Just look at the individual pcts for the series; we have three guys over 40 percent, and one of them is Alex Caruso.

If they had just shot a collective 35 percent, still complete ****, the series is over and everybody is rhapsodizing over one of the all-time great closeout performances in NBA history.

[PaulieWal]

??? No, it does not.

I don't know what that poster is talking about. First of all LeBron was the only reason that game was even close tonight last night. And he only took what 21 shots? And hit 15 of them. Secondly, the Lakers lost this game because their role players were absolutely trash last night. LeBron and AD did what they had to do but if your role players stink it up like that, it's hard to win. Not because he's Westbrook or overshadowing the others. How do people even come up with analysis like that?

To follow this up, everybody not named LeBron and Davis shot 31 percent on nearly 50 attempts. That is an enormous amount of dead weight to carry. Somebody posted on Twitter last night that the Lakers were 0 for 6 off LeBron passes in the 4th, with four being completely wide open. Sometimes you get John Paxson or Robert Horry. Sometimes you get Danny Green and Markieff Morris.

It's pretty hard to lose a game in which your top two players score an ultra-efficient 68 points, but we somehow managed to do it. This is a game I've been dreading all playoffs, because while we certainly have guys who can step up and make shots, you just have no idea what you're going to get on a game-to-game basis. Just look at the individual pcts for the series; we have three guys over 40 percent, and one of them is Alex Caruso.

If they had just shot a collective 35 percent, still complete ****, the series is over and everybody is rhapsodizing over one of the all-time great closeout performances in NBA history.

Yeah, both of the last games LeBron has gotten his role players wide open looks like the star is supposed to and they have just missed. It happens. Which is why I still think Lakers are the better team and should win.

Again, this was a 1 point game with a WIDEEEEEEEEE OPEN 3 for Danny Green in the final seconds. People are acting like the Heat blew out the Lakers by 25 points or something and LeBron got his own cool 40 points and statpadded.

[Jordan Syndrome]

btw: I can't help but notice that at this point the Heat have roughly the same killer ORtg they had in any other series.

While our evaluation of AD can talk about how good he seems to be when 100%, in terms of damning Giannis' defense, it's starting to feel like we just need to see the Heat as a robust, elite offense that you can't expect to really stop, which is a very different thing from the "Top 10 but not Top 5" tier of offense we saw them as going into the playoffs.

Miami is finding a way how to use Duncan Robinson best and it is showing big time. Spoelstra has figured out how to use Robinson against this Lakers defense, and often times he starts on/near the lower block opposite of where Butler is on the Wing, Robinson fakes back door and after a down screen and cutting up through the free throw line he is finding space to get his shot off. Look at the difference between the first two games and last 3.

First 2: 24.5 MPG, 39.8 TS%, 4.5 Points on 5.0 FGA, -29 while the heat were -28.

Last 3: 36.4 MPG, 72.1 TS%, 18.7 Points on 11.3 FGA, +39 while the heat are +8.

It's funny that people in this very thread were saying he is "so easy to plan for like Korver" yet Robinson has been good to great in every series. It takes 48 minutes of 100% effort to stop a player like Duncan Robinson, just like it does every other "superstar" in this league.

As much credit as Butler is getting, and rightfully so, it isn't just Butler. Robinson is having a superstar impact and footprint on these games. It's great to watch as I was very high on him during the regular season and he has been exceptional in this post-season, especially as series go on.

[70sFan]

btw: I can't help but notice that at this point the Heat have roughly the same killer ORtg they had in any other series.

While our evaluation of AD can talk about how good he seems to be when 100%, in terms of damning Giannis' defense, it's starting to feel like we just need to see the Heat as a robust, elite offense that you can't expect to really stop, which is a very different thing from the "Top 10 but not Top 5" tier of offense we saw them as going into the playoffs.

Miami is finding a way how to use Duncan Robinson best and it is showing big time. Spoelstra has figured out how to use Robinson against this Lakers defense, and often times he starts on/near the lower block opposite of where Butler is on the Wing, Robinson fakes back door and after a down screen and cutting up through the free throw line he is finding space to get his shot off. Look at the difference between the first two games and last 3.

First 2: 24.5 MPG, 39.8 TS%, 4.5 Points on 5.0 FGA, -29 while the heat were -28.

Last 3: 36.4 MPG, 72.1 TS%, 18.7 Points on 11.3 FGA, +39 while the heat are +8.

It's funny that people in this very thread were saying he is "so easy to plan for like Korver" yet Robinson has been good to great in every series. It takes 48 minutes of 100% effort to stop a player like Duncan Robinson, just like it does every other "superstar" in this league.

As much credit as Butler is getting, and rightfully so, it isn't just Butler. Robinson is having a superstar impact and footprint on these games. It's great to watch as I was very high on him during the regular season and he has been exceptional in this post-season, especially as series go on.

As I said, Duncan Robinson is Reggie-esque these playoffs. He's not as versatile as Reggie of course, but the spacing, off-ball movement and constant pressure makes him extremely valuable.

[dontcalltimeout]

btw: I can't help but notice that at this point the Heat have roughly the same killer ORtg they had in any other series.

While our evaluation of AD can talk about how good he seems to be when 100%, in terms of damning Giannis' defense, it's starting to feel like we just need to see the Heat as a robust, elite offense that you can't expect to really stop, which is a very different thing from the "Top 10 but not Top 5" tier of offense we saw them as going into the playoffs.

Miami is finding a way how to use Duncan Robinson best and it is showing big time. Spoelstra has figured out how to use Robinson against this Lakers defense, and often times he starts on/near the lower block opposite of where Butler is on the Wing, Robinson fakes back door and after a down screen and cutting up through the free throw line he is finding space to get his shot off. Look at the difference between the first two games and last 3.

First 2: 24.5 MPG, 39.8 TS%, 4.5 Points on 5.0 FGA, -29 while the heat were -28.

Last 3: 36.4 MPG, 72.1 TS%, 18.7 Points on 11.3 FGA, +39 while the heat are +8.

It's funny that people in this very thread were saying he is "so easy to plan for like Korver" yet Robinson has been good to great in every series. It takes 48 minutes of 100% effort to stop a player like Duncan Robinson, just like it does every other "superstar" in this league.

As much credit as Butler is getting, and rightfully so, it isn't just Butler. Robinson is having a superstar impact and footprint on these games. It's great to watch as I was very high on him during the regular season and he has been exceptional in this post-season, especially as series go on.

I'll add re: the Korver comparison: the zeitgeist tends to remember Korver getting kind of shut down in the 2015 playoffs after he had been "unlocked" that season as the most dangerous weapon for an over-achieving Hawks team. I don't know that Duncan is actually better than that Korver, he's just 1) younger 26 vs 33 is a big deal when you are running nonstop, 2) as close to healthy as you get in the finals, while Kyle was banged up that whole playoffs and even missed games, and 3) Duncan has a coach who has not given up on running more stuff, more tweaks to get his guy looks (props also to the players for executing).

[Baski]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions.

??? No, it does not.

I don't know what that poster is talking about. First of all LeBron was the only reason that game was even close tonight last night. And he only took what 21 shots? And hit 15 of them. Secondly, the Lakers lost this game because their role players were absolutely trash last night. LeBron and AD did what they had to do but if your role players stink it up like that, it's hard to win. Not because he's Westbrook or overshadowing the others. How do people even come up with analysis like that?

Sorry for baiting but we all know that guy's motivation for making such a post as well as his rigidly Curry-serving player ranking criteria.
Would've loved to see that post ignored but you guys give too much respect in this thread.

Imagine thinking that "when AD sucks the Lakers are more likely to lose, and when he plays well they're more likely to win" is some groundbreaking statement. You would think the same can't be said about KCP or Rondo or something, let alone Lebron.

[WarriorGM]

??? No, it does not.

I don't know what that poster is talking about. First of all LeBron was the only reason that game was even close tonight last night. And he only took what 21 shots? And hit 15 of them. Secondly, the Lakers lost this game because their role players were absolutely trash last night. LeBron and AD did what they had to do but if your role players stink it up like that, it's hard to win. Not because he's Westbrook or overshadowing the others. How do people even come up with analysis like that?

Sorry for baiting but we all know that guy's motivation for making such a post as well as his rigidly Curry-serving player ranking criteria.
Would've loved to see that post ignored but you guys give too much respect in this thread.

Imagine thinking that "when AD sucks the Lakers are more likely to lose, and when he plays well they're more likely to win" is some groundbreaking statement. You would think the same can't be said about KCP or Rondo or something, let alone Lebron.

The eternally underwhelming player being praised to the high heavens while his teammates are blamed for stinking things up yet again. A broken record if I've ever heard one.

There are people who actually see the discrepancies in the common narratives unlike yourself and want to get to the bottom of the matter.

Close observers of the Curry and Durant partnership may have an idea of what is going on with AD and LeBron. The rest of you will have to remain ignorant.

[MisterHibachi]

Whenever James puts up numbers it seems as if his teammates start stinking it up. It's the Westbrook effect. It's why the numbers James puts up need to be met with skepticism; it's a pattern with him. Big numbers don't equal winning basketball. Too many examples in history show this but people still keep falling for it.

Enjoy.

Watch on YouTube

[kayess]

So how does this game change people's opinions of Butler? Felt like there was a lot of winning bias - did Butler truly ascend to a different level and become a different tier of player overall? For those 2 games, absolutely. Does that make him a top 5 player though?

[Senior]

lebron is eternal

[GSP]

So how does this game change people's opinions of Butler? Felt like there was a lot of winning bias - did Butler truly ascend to a different level and become a different tier of player overall? For those 2 games, absolutely. Does that make him a top 5 player though?

Easily a top 10 player but def not top 5. There is heavy winning bias for Poy voting here specially when it comes to small samples in the playoffs/finals

[MyUniBroDavis]

I don't know what that poster is talking about. First of all LeBron was the only reason that game was even close tonight last night. And he only took what 21 shots? And hit 15 of them. Secondly, the Lakers lost this game because their role players were absolutely trash last night. LeBron and AD did what they had to do but if your role players stink it up like that, it's hard to win. Not because he's Westbrook or overshadowing the others. How do people even come up with analysis like that?

Sorry for baiting but we all know that guy's motivation for making such a post as well as his rigidly Curry-serving player ranking criteria.
Would've loved to see that post ignored but you guys give too much respect in this thread.

Imagine thinking that "when AD sucks the Lakers are more likely to lose, and when he plays well they're more likely to win" is some groundbreaking statement. You would think the same can't be said about KCP or Rondo or something, let alone Lebron.

The eternally underwhelming player being praised to the high heavens while his teammates are blamed for stinking things up yet again. A broken record if I've ever heard one.

There are people who actually see the discrepancies in the common narratives unlike yourself and want to get to the bottom of the matter.

Close observers of the Curry and Durant partnership may have an idea of what is going on with AD and LeBron. The rest of you will have to remain ignorant.

Wait come closer salty warriors fan number #632 my steak is kind of bland

[kayess]

Holy **** the hater tears man. 100% the best part of all of this

And yes, definitely some real winning bias. Heat and Jimmy were making some ridiculous shots that I think didn't get talked about enough

[Dupp]

Watch on YouTube

[TheGOATRises007]

So how does this game change people's opinions of Butler? Felt like there was a lot of winning bias - did Butler truly ascend to a different level and become a different tier of player overall? For those 2 games, absolutely. Does that make him a top 5 player though?

Swap out Butler for any other star in the NBA - Do the Heat do better this series?

I'm not so sure they do. I think they do worse.

I'd put him 5th probably.

[yoyoboy]

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Butler
4. Jokic
5. Giannis
6. Harden
7. Kawhi
8. Doncic
9. Tatum
10. Lowry
HM: Paul, Lillard

Will likely be my order.

[Dupp]

One thing I questioned was if lebron still had another gear and I think he showed it the last two games

[therealbig3]

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Butler
6. Harden
7. Kawhi
8. Doncic

Pretty sure that’s the consensus top 8 for everyone, only thing that’s gonna change is the order. That’s my order unless I see something else to change my mind. Butler wasn’t gonna make it but after his epic Finals, I couldn’t not put him up there. I’m tempted to put him over Giannis, but part of me just feels that he has a better situation than Giannis. And Giannis was twice the player he was during the RS.

Still, Butler’s Finals was more impressive to me than anything I saw from Giannis/Harden/Kawhi/Doncic all year. Jokic was similarly impressive against the Clippers, which is what got him into the top 5 as well.

[Baski]

The eternally underwhelming player being praised to the high heavens while his teammates are blamed for stinking things up yet again. A broken record if I've ever heard one.

There are people who actually see the discrepancies in the common narratives unlike yourself and want to get to the bottom of the matter.

Close observers of the Curry and Durant partnership may have an idea of what is going on with AD and LeBron. The rest of you will have to remain ignorant.

Enjoy the Lakers 17th Championship led by the POY Lebron James and Runner up Anthony Davis. Hopefully next season isn't underwhelming for sir Isaac Newton over there with his healed up hangnail-excuse me-horrific season-ending hand injury