Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[poopdamoop]

There are legitimate reasons to pick MJ over LeBron, but people default to terrible reasons like "lol no finals losses and killer instinct"

[TheFinishSniper]

Thank you OP. Without you this wouldnt be possible. This train of thoughts. You are that special kind. Thank you for being there when we need you. I just couldnt sleep last night this was all in my head, but you just made it so clear Ill never debate again.


Admins, Ill quote this post every single time someone open next MJ vs Lebron thread. You are being warned.

[Benedict_Boozer]

Michael Jordan lost more than he won as well. Losing in the first round or not making the playoffs is not better than losing in the finals.

Yeah the finals loss thing I just don’t understand the logic.

I seriously think the people who use that logic would think Lebron being 4-0 in the finals would be better than 4-6. Like it’s better to lose earlier?

It’s better for Giannis and Kawhi to lose early while Butler makes it to the finals and loses?

SMH


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Clutch0z24]

The fact whenever LBJ Fans or Media even mention Jordan in the GOAT "Debate" when saying LBJ is the GOAT makes no sense at all...If LeBron is already the GOAT in your eyes why bring up MJ? There should be No Debate and MJ Should not even be in the discussion cause LBJ should already be universally known as the best player ever...Which hes not...

When MJ retired no one was debating MJ Vs Magic or MJ Vs Kareem....It was there is MJ And then there was everyone else...MJ Stood alone as the GOAT universally and it remained that way...If LBJ wants to become the GOAT hes going to have to STEAL the thrown from MJ and Three peat with LA and have 1 more ring then MJ when its all said and done...Then there will be no Debate

I think this is the best argument I've seen for goat status on here ever. I'm old enough to remember in the 90s there was no real debate on MJ's throne, lebron's bubble championship changes nothing. I get the desire for wanting to live to watch the greatest ever play for young people but you guys missed out.

You’re confusing opinion with fact and incorrectly assuming anyone picking LeBron over Jordan is too young to have watched both.

No one was debating Jordan was the GOAT against another player...People just knew he was the GOAT from what they witnessed...The Fact people have to try and convince or debate us or the fact MJ is still even in the discussion at all proves that LeBron is infact not the GOAT even in the peoples eyes who are debating that he is....

If LBJ was the GOAT right now there would be no questions and there would be no one in front of him to debate cause he would be universally already be known as the GOAT...

LBJ Still has work to do to pass MJ and thats just what it is....4 Titles where he also had horrible final moments and got dominated in some of them final matchups are just not going to do it to take the GOAT chair from MJ...I feel for LeBron if he ties or three peats with Lakers then he that might just end even the debating

[Brofessor24]

IMO nope.

King James is the GOAT.

[therealbig3]

I think this is the best argument I've seen for goat status on here ever. I'm old enough to remember in the 90s there was no real debate on MJ's throne, lebron's bubble championship changes nothing. I get the desire for wanting to live to watch the greatest ever play for young people but you guys missed out.

You’re confusing opinion with fact and incorrectly assuming anyone picking LeBron over Jordan is too young to have watched both.

No one was debating Jordan was the GOAT against another player...People just knew he was the GOAT from what they witnessed...The Fact people have to try and convince or debate us or the fact MJ is still even in the discussion at all proves that LeBron is infact not the GOAT even in the peoples eyes who are debating that he is....

If LBJ was the GOAT right now there would be no questions and there would be no one in front of him to debate cause he would be universally already be known as the GOAT...

LBJ Still has work to do to pass MJ and thats just what it is....4 Titles where he also had horrible final moments and got dominated in some of them final matchups are just not going to do it to take the GOAT chair from MJ...I feel for LeBron if he ties or three peats with Lakers then he that might just end even the debating

Except I just pointed out that this isn’t true, older fans at the time of Jordan’s retirement did debate his place next to Kareem and Russell and Wilt. But the narrative changed over time and people forget about them now, and make it all about 3 players: Magic and Bird and Jordan, and Jordan was the best out of the 3, therefore he’s the GOAT.

This is your nostalgia speaking.

[PhilBlackson]

Its not just that LeBron lost in the Finals, its how that disqualifies him...

He had THE biggest meltdown in pretty much NBA history of any player remotely near his caliber when DAL embarrassed him/the Heat (The Frozen One) and secondly getting beat by historical margins by the Spurs when the Heat were the favorites.

Let me guess though bu..bu..but 3-1 lol next!!!

MJ is the GOAT, deal with it.

[bstein14]

I don't think there is any question that Lebron is going to have the GOAT career in NBA history. He probably has it now, but in another 2/3 years I don't think it will even be arguable. He's 100% the GOAT when it comes to entire body of work over a career. The #s will back that up.

I also don't think its very debatable that Jordan is the GOAT when it comes to peak prime. He got to a higher level of greatness over a 8 to 9 year period than any other player in NBA history. When you talk about being the GOAT, its Jordan even though he didn't have the longevity of Lebron who has really been great for nearly 15 years now, Jordan did without question have a higher peak prime that is the best of all time.

[Brandon_Roy7]

Michael Jordan lost more than he won as well. Losing in the first round or not making the playoffs is not better than losing in the finals.

Yeah the finals loss thing I just don’t understand the logic.

I seriously think the people who use that logic would think Lebron being 4-0 in the finals would be better than 4-6. Like it’s better to lose earlier?

It’s better for Giannis and Kawhi to lose early while Butler makes it to the finals and loses?

SMH


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I agree. You always gotta look at the context. Lebron making it to 10 finals appearance shouldn't be a surprise. He changed the nba for the worst imo. Teaming up and picking his teammates etc. Its why people dislike him. He is basically destroying compettiveness. So when he loses he gets a lot of flack for good reason. Butler on the other hand will get praised for what he had to go through. Nearly sweeping every east series. Also taking LA to 6 games while having injured roster.

[Clutch0z24]

You’re confusing opinion with fact and incorrectly assuming anyone picking LeBron over Jordan is too young to have watched both.

No one was debating Jordan was the GOAT against another player...People just knew he was the GOAT from what they witnessed...The Fact people have to try and convince or debate us or the fact MJ is still even in the discussion at all proves that LeBron is infact not the GOAT even in the peoples eyes who are debating that he is....

If LBJ was the GOAT right now there would be no questions and there would be no one in front of him to debate cause he would be universally already be known as the GOAT...

LBJ Still has work to do to pass MJ and thats just what it is....4 Titles where he also had horrible final moments and got dominated in some of them final matchups are just not going to do it to take the GOAT chair from MJ...I feel for LeBron if he ties or three peats with Lakers then he that might just end even the debating

Except I just pointed out that this isn’t true, older fans at the time of Jordan’s retirement did debate his place next to Kareem and Russell and Wilt. But the narrative changed over time and people forget about them now, and make it all about 3 players: Magic and Bird and Jordan, and Jordan was the best out of the 3, therefore he’s the GOAT.

This is your nostalgia speaking.

From what i remember MJ Was considered the GOAT from never losing and being perfect in the Finals...its WHAT he did that made him the GOAT not some imaginary thing ...Its how dominating he was during his time....Thing is LBJ Just hasn't done enough yet to take Jordans throne as of today he has a few more years to try and change that which he still can...And like i said a three peat with the Lakers would prolly do it...Only time will tell if he can do it...

If you think LBJ is better then Jordan right now whats your argument? LBJ avoided the Clippers who were LBJ toughest challenge in the west the rest of the teams were average teams and in the finals he played a 5th seed who were riddled with injuries...

He needs to do a little more to take the Throne from MJ thats why there is still even a debate atm and ppl still bring up Jordan in 2020 as being the GOAT cause he just hasn't done enough to close the case for him being the GOAT yet

[Marty_Budda]

it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

It puzzles me how people continue to use the "losing in the finals" argument.

Using that same logic, let's say Jordan had led his team to the finals 4 more times but failed to beat the western conference opponent - would he be considered a worse player now? You'd basically be arguing that if he had lead his team to more wins and greater playoff success, he'd be a worse player.

Why is losing to the finals a blemish on your resume, but not making it to the finals isn't?

There's plenty of reasons to view Jordan as the goat over lebron without discussing the finals.

But strictly talking about the finals, personally it's about performance in the biggest stage more so than win v loss, but wins matter obviously.

I don't hold 18,17,15 against him

14 - not really a big deal, but he shot 57% (which is great) but it just seemed like he cared more about the FG% than being aggressive. Alot of times he scored when the heat were already down a bunch and it was the biggest margin of losses in finals history.

He only took 17 shots a game and lebron is capable of getting a shot off almost anytime he wants. Not his fault they lost, the team was gassed, but I would have liked to see him go down swininging like he did in 2015.

The big two blemishes are 2011 and 07 - I won't go into 2011 it's been done to death but that year the heat should have won, and they would have 3peated which would bring many more people to the view he's the goat.

But 2007 it's not that he lost, but he played horribly and simply wasn't good enough, the games were close all 4 and that's despite the fact he was at like 22ppg on 40% fg irrc. Age experience these aren't good enough excuses for an all time great like lebron.

In 2007 he was 22. MJ was entering his first year in the NBA at 22...let that sink in.

The fact that a 22 year old carried a team to the finals that had no business being there should warrant massive respect.

[Brofessor24]

Michael Jordan lost more than he won as well. Losing in the first round or not making the playoffs is not better than losing in the finals.

Yeah the finals loss thing I just don’t understand the logic.

I seriously think the people who use that logic would think Lebron being 4-0 in the finals would be better than 4-6. Like it’s better to lose earlier?

It’s better for Giannis and Kawhi to lose early while Butler makes it to the finals and loses?

SMH


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I agree. You always gotta look at the context. Lebron making it to 10 finals appearance shouldn't be a surprise. He changed the nba for the worst imo. Teaming up and picking his teammates etc. Its why people dislike him. He is basically destroying compettiveness. So when he loses he gets a lot of flack for good reason. Butler on the other hand will get praised for what he had to go through. Nearly sweeping every east series. Also taking LA to 6 games while having injured roster.

I disagree with your opinion. To me, he changed the NBA for the better.

[sunsbg]

Lebron barely beat a depleted Heat team. Replace Butler with 35yo Jordan and Lebron still stands at 3 titles.

[Brandon_Roy7]

Yeah the finals loss thing I just don’t understand the logic.

I seriously think the people who use that logic would think Lebron being 4-0 in the finals would be better than 4-6. Like it’s better to lose earlier?

It’s better for Giannis and Kawhi to lose early while Butler makes it to the finals and loses?

SMH


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I agree. You always gotta look at the context. Lebron making it to 10 finals appearance shouldn't be a surprise. He changed the nba for the worst imo. Teaming up and picking his teammates etc. Its why people dislike him. He is basically destroying compettiveness. So when he loses he gets a lot of flack for good reason. Butler on the other hand will get praised for what he had to go through. Nearly sweeping every east series. Also taking LA to 6 games while having injured roster.

I disagree with your opinion. To me, he changed the NBA for the better.

If your a fan of lakers, warriors, Cleveland, and heat. Then yea you could say that. But for everyone else. Its like why bother watching nba. We already know the results. This season was a weird season obviously. To many superstar players injured. Next season I'll end up watching if everyone is healthy.

[SpaceCenter]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

He'll never even be top 5 until he wins without Klutch sports and rigged super teams. If he stayed on Cleveland his whole career and had 4 rings I would be listening.

[Brofessor24]

I agree. You always gotta look at the context. Lebron making it to 10 finals appearance shouldn't be a surprise. He changed the nba for the worst imo. Teaming up and picking his teammates etc. Its why people dislike him. He is basically destroying compettiveness. So when he loses he gets a lot of flack for good reason. Butler on the other hand will get praised for what he had to go through. Nearly sweeping every east series. Also taking LA to 6 games while having injured roster.

I disagree with your opinion. To me, he changed the NBA for the better.

If your a fan of lakers, warriors, Cleveland, and heat. Then yea you could say that. But for everyone else. Its like why bother watching nba. We already know the results. This season was a weird season obviously. To many superstar players injured. Next season I'll end up watching if everyone is healthy.

I wonder what you thought about the league in the 90s when the Bulls made it to the Finals 6 times in 8 years.

[Brofessor24]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

He'll never even be top 5 until he wins without Klutch sports and rigged super teams. If he stayed on Cleveland his whole career and had 4 rings I would be listening.

Keep sipping that haterade.

[SpaceCenter]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

He'll never even be top 5 until he wins without Klutch sports and rigged super teams. If he stayed on Cleveland his whole career and had 4 rings I would be listening.

Keep sipping that haterade.

Everything I said is true though. He's a fraud who uses his own player agency to get a competitive advantage over the league. NBA even investigated him for it. He has control over his teammates commissions which is absolutely ****.

[Homer38]

Its not just that LeBron lost in the Finals, its how that disqualifies him...

He had THE biggest meltdown in pretty much NBA history of any player remotely near his caliber when DAL embarrassed him/the Heat (The Frozen One) and secondly getting beat by historical margins by the Spurs when the Heat were the favorites.

Let me guess though bu..bu..but 3-1 lol next!!!

MJ is the GOAT, deal with it.

2011 was 9 years ago....since that time,he won 4 titles and 4 FMVP.

[KyRo23]

I think the GOAT discussion would be close if Jordan carried the load like LeBron has in the finals but he didn’t lol

LeBron leads his teams in almost every statistical category and he still wins. Jordan was what... leading in scoring and that it? That’s all? Having all that energy to save for scoring? Why isn’t this talked about more? LeBron does it all. Jordan didn’t have to do it all. Scottie clearly did it ALL on the court. Jordan was lucky to have him