2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[LukaTheGOAT]

I've never done this POY of the project before, but I think I would be interested in contributing? Is the POY project based on who we think played the best and not who we actually think is the best?

[Dupp]

I considered the Lakers the presumptive favorites at the beginning of this season and I actually questioned why the Clippers were considered favored over them way back when. So none of this is surprising or unexpected for me. Maybe some of you late comers depending on others to analyze things for you are once again led to change your minds on how things stand but it's been constant for some time now. Nothing that happened this year really changed anything except improving Butler's stock. Did we really learn anything else?

Kawhi - overrated
AD - Underrated
Butler- Underrated. ( especially off court)


Probably the biggest take aways from the season as far as individuals go

Giannis is more overrated than Kawhi TBH

He repeated Mvp and got a **** Dpoy too

Ppl who underrated the Raptors badly thought Kawhi was some auto title but overall he still had a great season and was great in the playoffs before that dreadful game 7

Yeah giannis too I forgot about him. Kawhi has a great season and playoffs for the most part but people were talking about him at a level he’s not even close too, particularly all time.

[therealbig3]

For me, Kawhi doesn’t make it because of the missed RS games in addition to the poor finish of his PS. To make up for the RS games, he needed to be great in the PS, and he wasn’t. Not enough to put him over guys that were available to their teams all year like Harden and Giannis.

[eminence]

I've never done this POY of the project before, but I think I would be interested in contributing? Is the POY project based on who we think played the best and not who we actually think is the best?

Yes, I believe it is supposed to be closer to who we think played the best in an individual season.

[eminence]

Butler will not be making my top 5, he falls into the class of player who needs to win it have one of the top 5 seasons (see '19 Draymond). Two masterful games in the Finals (and a very strong overall Finals performance) don't change the narrative enough for me.

[No-more-rings]

When does official voting start?

[HeartBreakKid]

WarriorGM is slowly coming to terms that GSW's era might be over and that most people are never going to seriously consider Curry over James again.

I considered the Lakers the presumptive favorites at the beginning of this season and I actually questioned why the Clippers were considered favored over them way back when. So none of this is surprising or unexpected for me. Maybe some of you late comers depending on others to analyze things for you are once again led to change your minds on how things stand but it's been constant for some time now. Nothing that happened this year really changed anything except improving Butler's stock. Did we really learn anything else?

What you said literally has nothing to do with my post. Not even a single word.

[Doctor MJ]

Butler will not be making my top 5, he falls into the class of player who needs to win it have one of the top 5 seasons (see '19 Draymond). Two masterful games in the Finals (and a very strong overall Finals performance) don't change the narrative enough for me.

So let me present a certain frame here:

The Heat played 2 serious contenders: The Bucks and the Lakers.
The Bucks had by far the best defense in the regular season, and were fine against their non-Heat opponent.
The Lakers had the most respected defense of the playoffs.

Against the Bucks, Butler was the Heat's leading scorer and had an efficiency of 68.2% TS while being huge precisely when his team needed him to be huge.

Against the Lakers, Butler wasn't just the Heat's leading scorer, he was the only star-level player out there period due to injuries in a series where the Heat had no business winning a single game, and he shot with an efficiency of 65.8% TS coming up huge in both victories against a team no one else in the league could win 2 games against.

My question then:

What is it in those series you aren't impressed with?

If you give me an answer based on, say, Davis being hurt. I get that.

On the other hand if your first impulse is to talk about the other series, why are you doing that? Clearly Butler was playing on a team that wasn't trying to have him be heliocentric all the time. The team was doing its thing, other strategies were working, the team won, what's the problem?

I do detect in general a sense of inertia here. Butler is seen as one tier and people are asking themselves if they need to utterly recategorized Butler based on X number of games. I would encourage people to drill down further than that. Butler played in a different capacity when his team needed him to. If you think he couldn't do that on a regular basis, what precisely do you think would stop him from doing it?

Answers that relate to Davis or teams planning around that offensive strategy I get, but answers that just assume that this was him getting hot, I'm not sure I do despite the fact that I'll acknowledge that I've used that precise language during the playoffs run. Dude wasn't thriving based on taking crazy 3 pointers. He was getting to the inside and drawing tons of fouls while also making great reads to his teammates. Much of this looks pretty sustainable to me short of actual defensive counter strategies (or outlier opponent talent like Davis).

[limbo]

Well, at least i got my Top 2 solved.

1.LeBron
2.AD
...

Now it's about how to rank the rest of the guys...

If i went strictly by impact and how good i believe these players are in a vacuum, the Top 5 would probably be rounded by Giannis, Kawhi and Harden.

But all of the guys above have certain poor marks. Giannis had trouble in the Playoffs and then got injured. Kawhi missed RS games and his team imploded from the inside. Despite Harden having arguably his best season overall to date, i can't help thinking, the more i see him play/act, that Harden is more concerned about himself and getting his way than actually winning... The whole CP3 debacle was already bad enough,, but if you're going to trade a superior player for Westbrook, at least try and maximize what Westbrook gives you by somewhat playing to his strengths. Harden just seemingly refuses to step out of his mold as a basketball player. He wants the ball at the top of the key and dribble shoot or drive layup/pass and that's it... Even LeBron, who's the greatest player ever in playing that style of basketball has made an effort to diverge away from that particular style in order to help guys like Wade, Kyrie and even some of the Laker guards right now... Harden doesn't seem to care.

So because of that, Jokic and Butler have some arguments for me in terms of making the Top 5. Not only did they get further in the Playoffs, but a huge part of the reason why was their leadership and primary role in keeping their team chemistry/morale high. You really can't ignore how much that matters after seeing how a team like Miami played greater than a sum of their parts, and how the Clippers basically imploded despite having arguably the most talented roster in the league.

You could also argue Jokic and Butler have less weaknesses in their game than the aforementioned guys. Jokic and Butler can't be exposed for their lack of playmaking skills like Kawhi. Jokic and Butler are more willing to work within the team offense and play off-ball than Harden... Jokic and Butler can shoot (well Butler can sometimes) and play differently, Giannis has struggled with this.

[No-more-rings]

Well, at least i got my Top 2 solved.

1.LeBron
2.AD
...

Now it's about how to rank the rest of the guys...

If i went strictly by impact and how good i believe these players are in a vacuum, the Top 5 would probably be rounded by Giannis, Kawhi and Harden.

But all of the guys above have certain poor marks. Giannis had trouble in the Playoffs and then got injured. Kawhi missed RS games and his team imploded from the inside. Despite Harden having arguably his best season overall to date, i can't help thinking, the more i see him play/act, that Harden is more concerned about himself and getting his way than actually winning... The whole CP3 debacle was already bad enough,, but if you're going to trade a superior player for Westbrook, at least try and maximize what Westbrook gives you by somewhat playing to his strengths. Harden just seemingly refuses to step out of his mold as a basketball player. He wants the ball at the top of the key and dribble shoot or drive layup/pass and that's it... Even LeBron, who's the greatest player ever in playing that style of basketball has made an effort to diverge away from that particular style in order to help guys like Wade, Kyrie and even some of the Laker guards right now... Harden doesn't seem to care.

So because of that, Jokic and Butler have some arguments for me in terms of making the Top 5. Not only did they get further in the Playoffs, but a huge part of the reason why was their leadership and primary role in keeping their team chemistry/morale high. You really can't ignore how much that matters after seeing how a team like Miami played greater than a sum of their parts, and how the Clippers basically imploded despite having arguably the most talented roster in the league.

You could also argue Jokic and Butler have less weaknesses in their game than the aforementioned guys. Jokic and Butler can't be exposed for their lack of playmaking skills like Kawhi. Jokic and Butler are more willing to work within the team offense and play off-ball than Harden... Jokic and Butler can shoot (well Butler can sometimes) and play differently, Giannis has struggled with this.

I'm a little different. Lebron, AD, Harden, and Jokic will probably a top 4 lock for me in some order. I have trouble between Giannis vs Kawhi for 5th. Giannis was first in the regular season, so i'm not sure how to weigh that. I don't think Butler has any top 5 case. Kawhi having a few bad shooting games doesn't all of a sudden make him worse than Butler who he's been siginficantly better than when healthy since 2017.

[limbo]

I'm a little different. Lebron, AD, Harden, and Jokic will probably a top 4 lock for me in some order. I have trouble between Giannis vs Kawhi for 5th. Giannis was first in the regular season, so i'm not sure how to weigh that. I don't think Butler has any top 5 case. Kawhi having a few bad shooting games doesn't all of a sudden make him worse than Butler who he's been siginficantly better than when healthy since 2017.

How do you not put Giannis ahead of Kawhi when Giannis had the better RS, played more RS games, and was statistically in the same ballpark in terms of the Playoffs (though on less minutes)? I don't see how you would reason Kawhi ahead of Giannis.

Butler just averaged close to 10 apg in 6 games against the Lakers defense in the Finals... playing on a depleted team with more offensive and defensive burden on him than Kawhi in any season of his career.

Now of course, it's a small sample size, in the Bubble, no less, but i'm pretty confident in claiming Butler is a better playmaker than Kawhi. Regardless of circumstances, i can not picture a scenario in my head where Kawhi could play in a heliocentric offense (or any offense for that matter) and be this successful as a playmaker against an elite defensive team.

I still believe Kawhi is the better player in a vacuum, because he's a more consistent scorer/shooter, but for this season in particular, i could see a case for Butler, because Butler reinvigorated the Miami Heat organization with his presence and elevated his game when needed in the PS (capping it off with a series in the Finals that was arguably greater than any in Kawhi's career; considering the circumstances and adjusting for opp. level), while Kawhi looked more like a hired mercenary that took every other game off during the RS only to eventually break down in performance during the Playoffs while his team was falling apart around him.

[limbo]

Watch on YouTube

[No-more-rings]

I'm a little different. Lebron, AD, Harden, and Jokic will probably a top 4 lock for me in some order. I have trouble between Giannis vs Kawhi for 5th. Giannis was first in the regular season, so i'm not sure how to weigh that. I don't think Butler has any top 5 case. Kawhi having a few bad shooting games doesn't all of a sudden make him worse than Butler who he's been siginficantly better than when healthy since 2017.

How do you not put Giannis ahead of Kawhi when Giannis had the better RS, played more RS games, and was statistically in the same ballpark in terms of the Playoffs (though on less minutes)? I don't see how you would reason Kawhi ahead of Giannis.

I don't know. That's why i said i don't know how to weigh it. I think we'd all agree Giannis' wasn't as good as his stats suggested in the playoffs, he wasn't a 31 PER type of player, and the Bucks had an epic collapse on his watch. Kawhi ended the series with a few bad games, but i'm not going to be overly harsh given his strong playoff track record. I think it was more of a fluke/poor coaching, etc. I don't think his flaws are as detrimental as Giannis' can be. He's had two postseasons in a row of underperforming. It's concerning.

[Peregrine01]

The way Lebron turns it up in the playoffs has me flabbergasted. He looks like a completely different player from the RS. I mean, physiologically, is it possible to be 35 and play like you're 25? He looks every bit the physical force that he was in his 20s.

[eminence]

Butler will not be making my top 5, he falls into the class of player who needs to win it have one of the top 5 seasons (see '19 Draymond). Two masterful games in the Finals (and a very strong overall Finals performance) don't change the narrative enough for me.

So let me present a certain frame here:

The Heat played 2 serious contenders: The Bucks and the Lakers.
The Bucks had by far the best defense in the regular season, and were fine against their non-Heat opponent.
The Lakers had the most respected defense of the playoffs.

Against the Bucks, Butler was the Heat's leading scorer and had an efficiency of 68.2% TS while being huge precisely when his team needed him to be huge.

Against the Lakers, Butler wasn't just the Heat's leading scorer, he was the only star-level player out there period due to injuries in a series where the Heat had no business winning a single game, and he shot with an efficiency of 65.8% TS coming up huge in both victories against a team no one else in the league could win 2 games against.

My question then:

What is it in those series you aren't impressed with?

If you give me an answer based on, say, Davis being hurt. I get that.

On the other hand if your first impulse is to talk about the other series, why are you doing that? Clearly Butler was playing on a team that wasn't trying to have him be heliocentric all the time. The team was doing its thing, other strategies were working, the team won, what's the problem?

I do detect in general a sense of inertia here. Butler is seen as one tier and people are asking themselves if they need to utterly recategorized Butler based on X number of games. I would encourage people to drill down further than that. Butler played in a different capacity when his team needed him to. If you think he couldn't do that on a regular basis, what precisely do you think would stop him from doing it?

Answers that relate to Davis or teams planning around that offensive strategy I get, but answers that just assume that this was him getting hot, I'm not sure I do despite the fact that I'll acknowledge that I've used that precise language during the playoffs run. Dude wasn't thriving based on taking crazy 3 pointers. He was getting to the inside and drawing tons of fouls while also making great reads to his teammates. Much of this looks pretty sustainable to me short of actual defensive counter strategies (or outlier opponent talent like Davis).

These all seem like fair questions.

What the Heat/Jimmy were doing didn't really work that well during the RS (not that it was bad either), they were a deserving 5 seed who could've easily finished 4-6. In any season but this one I find it highly unlikely they make it out of the East and playing those RS games they certainly didn't know that this bubble is how things would wind up. How much should I hold that against them? I don't know.

In the Bucks series I see a series won by great teamwide 3pt shooting vs mediocre shooting from the Bucks, some of that is due to Jimmy's superior ability to break down a defense off the dribble compared to Giannis/Middleton (Dragic better too), but a lot of it is a credit to Crowder. A soft foul at the end of game 2 echoes in my mind. Then Giannis goes down early in game 4. Series is 100% over from then on out, keeps Jimmy from fully slaying the giant.

I would also put the Celtics in the low-end contender circle. That series matters quite a bit to me. And I think Tatum was the best player in it, with Bam the best Heat player. Plenty of others playing well too (it was a fun/high-level series).

On a more granular level, Jimmy's defense in the playoffs I found overall underwhelming, with him as primary defender all of Middleton/Tatum/LeBron really got cooking.

I'm left seeing a guy who through the ECF was the lead offensive cog in a strong Heat team, but a cog nonetheless. A lesser cog on defense, with Bam the star there.

In the Finals Jimmy really steps it up offensively (especially games 2-5) it's an alltimer of a performance. It's forced by circumstance with Dragic/Bam injuries (I see '15 LeBron parallels). It's heroic and great and overall gives Jimmy the 3rd best playoff run in my mind (LBJ/AD are 1-2), but he started this race in ~10th place and he didn't get over the finish line same as all the rest (sans LBJ/AD).

I think the main differences are that I seem to place more importance on the RS/Celtics series, and am less impressed by Jimmy's individual performance in the Bucks series than you seem to be. Perhaps generally lower on his defense as well.

[yoyoboy]

I''m really tempted to put him 3rd because of how much value I'm putting into what Butler provides outside of his basketball abilities and that's much harder to quantify. Nobody expected this Heat team to make it as far as they did. They dominated the MVP-led 9.4 SRS Bucks and took 2 games off the championship Lakers, even with his 2nd/3rd best players missing significant time. And while it was a great team effort and a hell of a coaching job by Spo, it's hard for me not to see Butler as the guy who gets that young inexperienced team to play with the kind of swagger and confidence that they do. Because he leaves a clear trail wherever he goes, and it really makes you wonder what kind of fire he's lighting under his teammates that we're not seeing on the court necessarily. The fact that he had such an unbelievable Finals series only adds to it - and I think it's disingenuous to say it was "just 2 games" because 2 of his games were All-Time level and the rest didn't necessarily match up. He had 2 ATG games, 2 very good games, 1 okay game, and 1 subpar game. I'm relatively high on his defense, as well.

[zimpy27]

My top 10

LeBron
Giannis
Jokic
Davis
Kawhi
Harden
Doncic
Butler
Lillard
Embiid

- I think the LeBron choice is fairly obvious, likely would have got MVP if the season didn't end when it did and followed it up with a monster playoff run where he secured the FInals MVP.
- Giannis is second for me because of his historic RS where he was DPOY and MVP. I feel Giannis's full court game is always going to be limited in the playoffs while he has a coach like Bud, I think Giannis is being lifted by Bud in RS but held back in the postseason and some adjustments there need to be made.
- Jokic was phenomenal in the playoffs, the offense went through him and he co-ordinated one of the prettiest offensive systems I'd seen since 2014 Spurs. Defensively he was solid and probably gets too much disrespect in this area IMO.
- Davis is tied with Kawhi as the 2 ultimate ancillary 2-way players of this era. Both can be added to any team to improve an offense and defense dramatically by being ancillary pieces. Davis only gets the edge because of playoffs.
- Kawhi described above.
- Harden had an excellent offensive year again, probably the best individual scorer in the game and somehow made it work with Westbrook. I can see this pairing being better next season.
- Doncic, like Harden, is an excellent offensive player and given his young age is truly amazing that he can be ranked this high. Main concerns for me are his defense and his injury-prone style.
- Butler jumped up for me in the finals, before the finals I would have him at 10. I always really liked Butler, he proved he was an excellent player by maintaining his impact numbers through several teams. Very underrated and probably doesn't play to his potential most games.
- Lillard, similar description to Doncic/Harden. The limitations are there but it's impressive how much space he provides on the offensive end. Not good enough to be the best player on a championship team though.
- Embiid could be the best player on a championship team but he would require a team built to his strengths. The most difficult part of Embiids game top lay with is the uncertainty of his offensive game. I think a strong coach is needed on the 76ers and Embiid needs to accept a role from a coach he respects.

[Heej]

I think Butler jumped in the Finals but tbh after last night's game I'm not sure the Lakers were even taking them all that seriously this entire series. They knew they had another level they could dig in and get to, so I'm not sure how to rate his Finals performances in that context. It's not enough for me personally to vault him into the top 5. I thought that the Lakers took the Nuggets WAY more seriously than they took the Heat, and had to dig deep into their bag to beat them in 5.

From a tactical standpoint the Lakers made more chess moves vs the Nuggets in 4 games than they did against the Heat in 6 games imo. These were amazing performances by Jimmy but I don't think they're truly representative of his caliber as a heliocentric championship star for this decade. Just my take personally from watching the Lakers all season.

LeBron
Davis
Harden/Giannis
Jokic

I can't choose between Harden and Giannis. Giannis was better in RS, Harden was better in PS. I thought he was the best player the Lakers faced by far. They were more locked in against the Rockets and had to sell out their defense completely just to contain him. If the Rockets had Chris Paul instead of Westbrook maybe that series would've been a competitive 6 or maybe 7 game slugfest.

[MyUniBroDavis]

On butler, if you read about a bunch of the heat chemistry stuff, his impact on that culture and the young guys around him cant be overstated

On lebron and AD, AD genuinly had an ATG+ playoff run, (His 66.5TS mark is better than ANY of currys playoff runs) and didnt actually have as many off ball easy rim possessions as youd expect (although def way more in the finals), and had to create a bunch of his offense. Ended up scoring 1.01ppp per 1v1 play, on 7 a game, which is about what luka is in terms of effeciency (5.5 poss a game). His post ups were effecient although dipped in the finals, his iso/faceup game was insane throughout the playoffs though. And while i do think his offense dipped in the finals (although still was a super effecient 25ppg scorer, which shows his off ball versatility makes it hard to stop him from scoring), his defense in the finals was DPOY++ level.

In the end, he averages 27.7/9.5/3.5, with DPOY defense. Rebounding looks worse because he was on the perimeter defensively some games and he had 1-2 bad rebounding games that really stood out but he was pretty solid on the boards overall, considering his offensive rebounding was about the same despite him being on the perimeter so much, and his defensive reboundjng was act great since whenever he got near hed get them, really stopped adebayo from getting offensive boards i feel. Passing was solid, had like a bad game or two here and there but was great overall. And again, currys career high in Ts was in 2017, where he shot 65.9 TS on 28.1 a game in 35.4 minutes. AD hit 66.5TS on 27.6 a game in 36.5 minutes, and id say he took harder shots since he was creating way more than most big men do, esp pre finals. Even the off ball impact curry has, AD prolly has the most "roll man" impact ever too. Basically we had a guy that has strong intangible/non box score impact have a better scoring playoffs than curry ever did, while playing high class DPOY defense. One thing thats interesting, despite his on ball scoring dipping a bit, both because of role (when heat were running zone) and because bam is prolly the best AD defender in the league, the more off ball role he took still allowed him to score 25 a game with crazy effeciency, which is esp impressive considering the insane defense he was playing overall

In terms of playoff runs that lead to a title, strictly in terms of level of play i think this one is high, high up there in terms of big man runs. Obv not as much of a carry job because of bron but strictly in terms of level of play, i think its a top 5 big man title run (if we consider it as 1 run per guy)

I think it was def one of the best defensive runs recently, keep in mind the matchups outside of vs portland and vs miami were teams that limit impact. The nuggets had a money play that AD cant really effect outside of guarding murray on switches which he did fine in, since it revolves around a jokic mismatch or a murray mismatch, and the rockets obv play their own way. I think AD played better against those two teams than alot of DPOY guys could have, and otoh his defense against portland was amazing, and his defense against miami, outside of the foul trouble game, was legit amazing (obv he chilled when they got big leads but whenever it was tight he actually was atg on defense)

The only real knock is he didnt clamp jokic like howard did. At rhe same time he did a far better job than gobert who at least from an effeciency standpoint got literally abused. I think playoff ADs defense was clearly better than goberts for sure, def more valuable, not sure with Giannis but probably better too, esp since he had that confidence to ask to go on to butler. Sure its a wtv thing fir some but i do like he took that upon himself.

In the end, it was ATG scoring big man run coupled with an atg big man defensive run. Add in him being a legit three point threat with the spacing, his playmaking hitting another gear and while not being kg level or anything is def far improved (as for the idea that he cant operate out of doubles, it seems thats been put to rest but as an extra thing ill add that when they do that front back double in the post it opens lob threats and ad is prolly one of the best big men atm at passing to other big me for lob threats as well).

Lebron prolly had a better run than AD so that speaks for itself lmao. As a whole, i think bron was better vs portland, its close vs houstan, AD was better vs the nuggets, and bron was better vs the heat

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think Butler jumped in the Finals but tbh after last night's game I'm not sure the Lakers were even taking them all that seriously this entire series. They knew they had another level they could dig in and get to, so I'm not sure how to rate his Finals performances in that context. It's not enough for me personally to vault him into the top 5. I thought that the Lakers took the Nuggets WAY more seriously than they took the Heat, and had to dig deep into their bag to beat them in 5.

From a tactical standpoint the Lakers made more chess moves vs the Nuggets in 4 games than they did against the Heat in 6 games imo. These were amazing performances by Jimmy but I don't think they're truly representative of his caliber as a heliocentric championship star for this decade. Just my take personally from watching the Lakers all season.

LeBron
Davis
Harden/Giannis
Jokic

I can't choose between Harden and Giannis. Giannis was better in RS, Harden was better in PS. I thought he was the best player the Lakers faced by far. They were more locked in against the Rockets and had to sell out their defense completely just to contain him. If the Rockets had Chris Paul instead of Westbrook maybe that series would've been a competitive 6 or maybe 7 game slugfest.

Tbf some of it was they didnt adjust well to the nuggets defense till g5, whereas they had already seen it witth the heat, and i think all teams knew not to count this heat team out. The houstan series was prolly the series where people were the most scared by far, alot of people had houstan midway through g2 and even half of g3, and we clapped their cheeks