Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[Bigfactsstackz]

OP mentioned all the stats he wanted. I'm going to do the same.

Assists per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 APG
- LeBron has 5 seasons above that, peaking at 10.2

Assists total:
- Jordan 5633
- LeBron 9346

LeBron is about to double MJ in assists in the regular season only.

Rebounds per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 RPG
- LeBron has 3 seasons above that and one equal.

Total rebounds:
- Jordan 6672
- LeBron 9405

There is almost a 3000 difference rebound wise.

Point total:
- Jordan 32292
- LeBron 32241

Seasons above 60ts%
Jordan 4
LeBron 6

Best ts%
Jordan 61.4
LeBron 64

WS
Jordan 214
LeBron 236.4

This is only in the regular season. But let's see how they perform in the post season.

Runs above 30 PER
Jordan 4
LeBron 7

Times they lead both teams in GmSC in the finals:
Jordan 5
LeBron 6

So LeBron was actually the best player on the court in the finals more times than Michael Jordan.

Total points
Jordan 5987
LeBron 7491

Total rebounds
Jordan 1152
LeBron 2348

Total assists
Jordan 1022
LeBron 1871

Runs above 60ts%
Jordan 1
LeBron 6

LeBron is much more efficient with his scoring. Therefore is the advantage on PPG so important since LeBron outrebounds MJ and outassists him largely?

Peak ts%
MJ 60.2
LeBron 66.8


I can carry on with the stupidity. See OP, we can all play the dumb game according to whatever agenda we have.
MJ has a case for GOAT. So does LeBron. And you guys gotta live with that. Hate LBJ or not, he's got the case.

Gonna love when fans use stat totals to prove a point lol .. Your a jazz fan right ? Have you ever heard of anyone trying to boost up Karl Malone cause all of his longevity stats? I’ve only heard about using totals when Lebron’s name gets mentioned

[therealbig3]

I think people that say Jordan and it’s not close are clearly not objective and are totally ignoring or are intentionally trying to downplay the accomplishments of Bill Russell and KAJ. Forget LBJ for a moment, don’t even want to make this about him. There is no objective way to act like Jordan was better than Russell and Kareem and “it’s not close”. That’s just pure homerism and nostalgia talking...and ironically, it’s what people are accusing LeBron fans of doing: disrespecting history.

I’m sorry, I can’t ignore 11 titles in 13 years, and the same number of MVPs. And the only reason he doesn’t hold the record for FMVP and DPOY awards is because they didn’t exist at the time.

I can’t ignore 6 rings, 6 MVPs, and 20 All-Star selections. Arguably the greatest longevity for a superstar player ever (along with Karl and LeBron), with arguably the greatest peak of all time.

Completely dismissing those two because of whatever arbitrary criteria you want to cook up in your head in order to prop Jordan up as the GOAT “and it’s not close” is what’s actually disrespectful of history.

Now, to bring it back to LeBron, I personally think he is the GOAT, and one of 4 players to have a case: LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, and Russell. I think you could have any one of them as the GOAT and it’s totally reasonable. You could rank any of them 4th, behind the other 3, and it’s totally reasonable.

That’s the Mt Rushmore of basketball for me, and they’re in a tier of their own: LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Russell, in any order.

[mademan]

The tax line in the 15-16 season was 84.7M. Cavs total payroll for the 16-17 season was ~127M. Had the cap stayed flat that would've amounted to a 100M+ tax bill. No NBA owner has or ever will pay that. If Lebron tries to hold a gun to your head you let him walk over losing 100M+.

Youre also assuming JR and TT get 15mill a year. There's a reason role players started getting paid that much. If the cap doesnt hike, they get normal role player deals.

And im pretty sure GSW was paying that kinda tax, even after the cap hike. Chit, they might pay some kind of ridiculous tax this upcoming season and they might not even be contenders.

Warriors never paid anything close to that. Maybe TT, JR, and Shump don't get what they got without the cap spike but Cavs were coming off an improbable title where they all played well. They would've gotten paid by someone. JR and Shump would've gotten MLE. TT would've gotten way more. He was the #4 pick in the draft. C'mon.

Not sure where you're getting this mega tax from anyway. Their salary with everyone but JR paid was 107 mill, or 20 mill above the tax.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/cleveland-cavaliers-team-salary/cleveland-cavaliers-salary-archive-201516/

And thats with TT getting a cap hike contract as well. They wouldve easily brought everyone back and paid a modest tax for 3 years before it all fell apart. The 2009 Cavs were 20 mill over the tax line as well. Gilbert wouldve paid

[LouisLitt]

Like a previous poster said; this isn’t insecurity, it’s giving kids a history lesson. These GOAT debates are laughable, the agenda trying to be pushed is pathetic. Jordan is the GOAT and it’s not even close, show some respect to Black Jesus.

This is about people not wanting to let go of their childhood hero.

The fact that it's "not even close" to some people speaks a lot.

Someone could come along, go 10 for 10, 10 FMVP's, 10 MVP's, 10 scoring titles, 10 DPOY, and you guys still would say Jordan's the best.

Both Lebron and Jordan are reasonable picks.

Jordan is more than just a “childhood hero”. He put the NBA on the global map and was associated with greatness and winning. His name, image and narrative is the stuff of folklore and mythology. The stats and records he has/had is all just icing really. His persona was simply larger than life and no matter how long lebron plays or how many records he breaks, he will never have that transcending image and character that Jordan had and it’s as simple as that. GOAT is a lot more than numbers. It’s about aesthetics. It’s about the folklore. It’s about the persona.

Lebron stans are so desperate to say the man they’ve followed from day one is the greatest (as do countless other young folks who have no frame of mind of a previous generation) but it’s all mere wasted energy. Be content with lebron being the best of this generation and you’ll free yourselves of the countless mental gymnastics.

So it's about a lot of things we can't quantify?

So essentially what I said before, nothing will ever be enough for you guys.

This is essentially a god of the gaps argument, which is really not worth having.

[VanWest82]

Listen, nobody is saying Jordan wasn’t elite at 35, and imo, using age to compare them is flawed...LeBron came in straight out of high school and never took multiple years off like Jordan did (not criticizing Jordan, it’s just the truth...he barely played in 86 and 95, and he didn’t play in 94). 98 was basically the 11th year of his career. The equivalent for LeBron would be 14. Since 14, he’s added 6 more years as the best player in the league. He came in younger than Jordan, and he never missed entire seasons like Jordan...so his 35 is A LOT more than Jordan’s 35. Compare them by any other standard of longevity (number of seasons or minutes), and it’s just not close.

This is misguided for all kinds of reasons:

1. Jordan wasn't just off on some kind of sabbatical working on his game. He was training for another sport which forever and always hurt him from a basketball body standpoint. Different training, different muscles. This has been discussed ad nauseum by various trainers over the years including Tim Grover, MJ's personal trainer. He'd have been better off physically had he just kept playing.

2. Jordan played three years of college. It's not the same as NBA but it's still basketball, and because NCAA was different back then - almost everyone stayed all four years - the competition was a lot closer to NBA than than one might think based on NCAA vs. NBA today.

3. Diet, medicine, training, etc., have all improved tremendously in the last 20 years. There are all kinds of examples of guards continuing to play at an all star level well into their mid 30s. That was virtually unheard of for NBA guards back in the 90s. It was basically Jordan and Stockton. The only way to compare longevity is to do it vs. their contemporaries. Lebron gets the nod here because the gap is quite large but the fact is that both guys were arguably the best player in the league at age 35 (MJ won MVP and FMVP; Lebron only won FMVP) so we probably need to wait another year to definitively give the edge to Lebron.

[AlexanderRight]

by choice is kinda irrelevant. Lebron already has a longer career than Jordan and will only add on to it. Dude might legit finish with the most points in the history of the league

No it’s not irrelevant because it illustrates that MJ still was on top of the league and still could have played longer to add more to his legacy. That’s a completely different situation than a player being over the hill and no longer in a position to do anything positive for his legend except ring chase on the bench because he’s no longer a high level player. Jordan was still the best in the league. Sure, Lebron been passed MJ in career totals. MJ still has 2 more championships, 2 more Finals MVPs, 1 more Regular Season MVP, 4 more All Defensive First Teams, 1 more Defensive Player of the Year Award, 3 more Steals Titles, and 9 more Scoring Titles. So even with less time MJ has accomplished more. That means more than just playing longer.

This is why i dont like cross era comparisons. Take MVP's. Lebron was 2nd this year against a legit GOAT tier RS from Giannis. Has Jordan ever had competition for MVP like Lebron did this year?

To me, Jordan was the best of his era and Lebron was the best of his. You cant compare across cause they didnt play against each other

And who did MJ lose his MVPs to after he got his first one in 88? Oh, only the greatest point guard in all time in Magic Johnson and at the time the two greatest power forwards of all time in Barkley and Malone before Duncan/Dirk/KG showed up. How is that MJ not having competition?

[Clutch0z24]

Read on Twitter

^ That argument is just dumb cause that logic does not apply to players like Butler because Butler was never or is never going to be in the GOAT discussion....The only reason LBJ does not get a pass for losing so many finals which he lost 6 of them 6.....Not 1 ...6...

When you are in the GOAT discussion you have to nit pick things

[Infinite Llamas]

This is about people not wanting to let go of their childhood hero.

The fact that it's "not even close" to some people speaks a lot.

Someone could come along, go 10 for 10, 10 FMVP's, 10 MVP's, 10 scoring titles, 10 DPOY, and you guys still would say Jordan's the best.

Both Lebron and Jordan are reasonable picks.

Jordan is more than just a “childhood hero”. He put the NBA on the global map and was associated with greatness and winning. His name, image and narrative is the stuff of folklore and mythology. The stats and records he has/had is all just icing really. His persona was simply larger than life and no matter how long lebron plays or how many records he breaks, he will never have that transcending image and character that Jordan had and it’s as simple as that. GOAT is a lot more than numbers. It’s about aesthetics. It’s about the folklore. It’s about the persona.

Lebron stans are so desperate to say the man they’ve followed from day one is the greatest (as do countless other young folks who have no frame of mind of a previous generation) but it’s all mere wasted energy. Be content with lebron being the best of this generation and you’ll free yourselves of the countless mental gymnastics.

So it's about a lot of things we can't quantify?

So essentially what I said before, nothing will ever be enough for you guys.

This is essentially a god of the gaps argument, which is really not worth having.

Yes, essentially. It was always a stupid argument because people have opinions and opinions aren’t easily swayed. Beating a five seed when lebron is playing alongside a top 5 player certainly won’t help sway any arguments either.

Face facts. Lebron will always have his army of fans. Jordan will always have his legion. Kobe will always have his supporters as well. The sooner people accept this and not be hellbent on trying to change someone’s opinion, the happier we can all be and learn to enjoy these greats for what they are opposed to the constant need to pit them against each other.

[mademan]

No it’s not irrelevant because it illustrates that MJ still was on top of the league and still could have played longer to add more to his legacy. That’s a completely different situation than a player being over the hill and no longer in a position to do anything positive for his legend except ring chase on the bench because he’s no longer a high level player. Jordan was still the best in the league. Sure, Lebron been passed MJ in career totals. MJ still has 2 more championships, 2 more Finals MVPs, 1 more Regular Season MVP, 4 more All Defensive First Teams, 1 more Defensive Player of the Year Award, 3 more Steals Titles, and 9 more Scoring Titles. So even with less time MJ has accomplished more. That means more than just playing longer.

This is why i dont like cross era comparisons. Take MVP's. Lebron was 2nd this year against a legit GOAT tier RS from Giannis. Has Jordan ever had competition for MVP like Lebron did this year?

To me, Jordan was the best of his era and Lebron was the best of his. You cant compare across cause they didnt play against each other

And who did MJ lose his MVPs to after he got his first one in 88? Oh, only the greatest point guard in all time in Magic Johnson and the two greatest power forwards of all time in Barkley and Malone before Duncan/Dirk/KG showed up.

Ya, and MJ won it the year before on the 9th best team in the league. Something that almost never happens. He lost in 89 and 90 because he was barely on a top ten team both years. Those werent losses to great players, those were MVP's he was almost always never gonna win in a normal regular season with normal MVP competitors.

[OdomFan]

If LeBron gets to six he will pass MJ. I think he gets one more before he's done but 6 is not out of the question.

6 championships doesn't erase the other number on the other side of his record. So no.

[VanWest82]

Read on Twitter

^ That argument is just dumb cause that logic does not apply to players like Butler because Butler was never or is never going to be in the GOAT discussion....The only reason LBJ does not get a pass for losing so many finals which he lost 6 of them 6.....Not 1 ...6...

When you are in the GOAT discussion you have to nit pick things

No one is even making that point anyway. It's not that Lebron lost -- it's that he got outplayed and lost. He quit in 2010 and got outplayed in 2011. KD arguably outplayed him in 2017 with Lebron as his primary defender, and then played him to a draw in 2018. That's the argument, along with the fact that Lebron has repeatedly stacked the deck in favor.

[therealbig3]

Listen, nobody is saying Jordan wasn’t elite at 35, and imo, using age to compare them is flawed...LeBron came in straight out of high school and never took multiple years off like Jordan did (not criticizing Jordan, it’s just the truth...he barely played in 86 and 95, and he didn’t play in 94). 98 was basically the 11th year of his career. The equivalent for LeBron would be 14. Since 14, he’s added 6 more years as the best player in the league. He came in younger than Jordan, and he never missed entire seasons like Jordan...so his 35 is A LOT more than Jordan’s 35. Compare them by any other standard of longevity (number of seasons or minutes), and it’s just not close.

This is misguided for all kinds of reasons:

1. Jordan wasn't off on some kind of sabbatical. He was training for another sport which forever and always hurt him from a basketball body standpoint. Different training, different muscles. This has been discussed ad nauseum by various trainers over the years including Tim Grover, MJ's personal trainer.

2. Jordan played three years of college. It's not the same as NBA but it's still basketball, and because NCAA was different back then - almost everyone stayed all four years - the competition was a lot closer to NBA than than one might think based on NCAA vs. NBA today.

3. Diet, medicine, training, etc., have all improved tremendously in the last 20 years. There are all kinds of examples of guys continuing to play at an all star level well into their mid 30s. That was virtually unheard of for NBA guards back in the 90s. It was basically Jordan and Stockton. The only way to compare longevity is to do it vs. their contemporaries. Lebron gets the nod here because the gap is quite large but the fact is that both guys were arguably the best player in the league at age 35 (MJ won MVP and FMVP; Lebron only won FMVP) so we probably need to wait another year to definitively give the edge to Lebron.

None of that changes the fact that Jordan didn’t play the same amount of NBA ball as LeBron has. It is what it is, nobody is criticizing Jordan for it, but you have to give credit to LeBron for it, and it absolutely matters in the GOAT debate.

It’s not fair to LeBron to only compare them by age...LeBron came in at 18, Jordan came in at 21. That right there makes an age comparison invalid unless you correct for that.

[JoeyLightYears]

Finally an original discussion topic at RealGM

[loserX]

If LeBron gets to six he will pass MJ. I think he gets one more before he's done but 6 is not out of the question.

6 championships doesn't erase the other number on the other side of his record. So no.

Sure it does. It means they have the same number of titles, but LeBron made it to an additional 6 finals more than Jordan. Despite what some people apparently seriously think, making it to the finals is better than not making it to the finals.

[TOStateofMind]

Nothing really changed. This title boosted brons resume but it doesnt really move the needle for goat debate. The people that thought MJ is GOAT still thinks that, and the same for the ones that think its bron. I think if the lakers go b2b then we might truly see a bit of a shift, but not as of now MJ is still pretty comfortably #1.

[LoneyROY]

No, he isn't.

[Jkam31]

MJ could have never done what LeBron did: win 3 championships in 3 different teams and 2 different conferences. 90s was a
weak era and he all a stacked team, not so much impressive.

I’m be of the worst posts I’ve seen but than agin I’m only on page 3.

Ya so hard to win on 3 different teams when your stacking each team you go on. You think Jordan can’t do that and call up another top 8 player 3 times Use you head

[othawhitemeat]

Read on Twitter

^ That argument is just dumb cause that logic does not apply to players like Butler because Butler was never or is never going to be in the GOAT discussion....The only reason LBJ does not get a pass for losing so many finals which he lost 6 of them 6.....Not 1 ...6...

When you are in the GOAT discussion you have to nit pick things

I think the better thing to say is that Lebron has lost not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, but 6 championships. I mean it was easy.

[Jkam31]

I could only imagine how many rings LeBron would win being coached by Phil Jackson and having arguably the best all-around player in NBA history in Scottie Pippen to go with Dennis Rodman who is arguably the best defensive player ever.

Anyone with all their brain cells can see that LeBron is superior. LeBron is an absolute cheat code, Shaq like power,with Vince Carter like leaping ability,no one can pass like LeBron in the history of the NBA this guy is rifling 20-25 mph passes end to end and on kick-outs and can finish with the left and right.

Lebron would’ve got Phil fired long ago and changed teams before Scottie got good. And by your simple minded logic of how you just described lebron than you think embiid is better than jokic. After all he is more athletic right

[Homer38]

If LeBron gets to six he will pass MJ. I think he gets one more before he's done but 6 is not out of the question.

6 championships doesn't erase the other number on the other side of his record. So no.

What

That would mean that he would have made at leasr 12 finals .... Already doing 10 finals is incredible .... Better to make the finals than to be eliminated before!