Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[Bush4Ever]

To me, it's like player A getting 4,200 career hits with an average OPS+ of 190, and peak OPS+ of 240 (Lebron) vs. player B getting 3,500 hits at an average OPS+ of 200, and peak OPS+ of 260 (Jordan).

To me, peak is obviously Jordan. Best five-year run is Jordan but to a smaller degree. Accumulated career value is Lebron, riding the wave of a monster longevity advantage.

I would feel comfortable putting Lebron in the top spot if either his apex or best five-year run exceeded Jordan's, but I don't think it did. That's why he's a firm number two for me right now. For me, he has to either a) win a ring and play another two years of high-level basketball (depending on the level of performance in those years), or b) win no more rings but play high-level ball for maybe another 3-4 years. Of course if he wins two more rings while playing high-level ball it would become pretty automatic in his favor.

At some point peak/prime needs to give way to volume and accumulation of value (IMO).

[OdomFan]

If LeBron gets to six he will pass MJ. I think he gets one more before he's done but 6 is not out of the question.

6 championships doesn't erase the other number on the other side of his record. So no.

Sure it does. It means they have the same number of titles, but LeBron made it to an additional 6 finals more than Jordan. Despite what some people apparently seriously think, making it to the finals is better than not making it to the finals.

Right so basically you're telling me that the fact that Lebron led teams have been swept and beaten in embarrassing fashion from 2011-2018 doesn't matter anymore as long as he gets that 6th ring to tie up Michael Jordan. Suddenly those losses are an after thought and he's gonna be the greatest of all time in your opinion? Sorry but I'm not buying that logic one bit. You can go on and on about longevity all you want, but when it comes down to it that's all a choice and not a requirement.

Michael Jordan did something Lebron has yet to do which is 3 peat not once, but twice. All in the same decade. After he accomplished that goal there was absolutely nothing wrong with him choosing to go out on top a winner rather than continuing on. You also have to remember that the Bulls front office were going to break the team up regardless. So you can't blame MJ for wanting to go out a Bull rather than going else where to start all over again.

[jokeboy86]

GOAT is actually Kareem its just the modern media acts like the NBA and its casual/fairweather fans don't care about anything that happened before Magic/Bird entered the league. It also doesn't get page clicks/eyeballs talking about any NBA basketball before the 90s/Jordan nowadays. Plus talking about guys like Kareem/Duncan doesn't make media money so its "sexier" to talk about MJ/Lebron/Kobe. I've said it before and I'll say it again the NBA has the most disrespectful fans/media towards history more than any of the other sports.

[Frank Dux]

I'm fine with people saying Jordan is the GOAT, but you're dead wrong if you think there's no argument for KAJ and Lebron being in that discussion.

[Alize]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT and it’s not even close.

Championships:
Jordan: 6 LeBron: 4

FMVP:
Jordan: 6 LeBron: 4

MVP:
Jordan 5 LeBron: 4

All Defence Team:
Jordan 9 LeBron 5

Scoring Tittles:
Jordan 10 LeBron 1

Steals Leader:
Jordan 3 LeBron 0

Assists Leader
LeBron 1 Jordan 0

DPOY
Jordan 1 LeBron 0

Only player to win Scoring Tittle, MVP & DPOY in same season. 2 Time Dunk Champion. ACC rookie of the year. ACC player of the Year. NCAA Champion. List just keeps going.


Jordan (Bulls)
PTS 31.5 FG% 505 3PT% 332 FT% 838 TRB 6.3 AST 5.4 STL 2.5 BLK 0.9 TOV 2.8

James
PTS 27.1 FG% 504 3PT% 344 FT% 734 TRB 7.4 AST 7.4 STL 1.6 BLK 0.8 TOV 3.5


Made playoffs:
Jordan 13/13 LeBron 14/17

Overall playoffs Win %
Jordan 66.5 LeBron 65.3

Finals Win %
Jordan 100 LeBron 40

Jordan faced 269 opponents in his playoff career, outscoring every player, except one.

27 of the 37 playoff opponents Jordan faced had over 50 wins. James has never had to defeat 3 teams with 50 wins or 2 teams with 60 wins in any playoff run. Jordan’s teams accomplished this in 5 of his 6 playoff runs.

Playoff game-winners/tie-ers with 25 seconds or less
– Jordan 10/19 (53%)
– LeBron 8/23 (35%)
Finals game-winners/tie-ers with 25 seconds or less
– Jordan 4/8 (50%)
– LeBron 0/6 (0%)

* Record 8 50-plus point playoff games.
* The all-time playoff record for the most 30-plus point playoff games with 109.
* Only player in NBA history to never once score under 15 points in any playoff game he ever played in.


MJ has literally everything over Lebron. Titles, accolades, stats, intangibles, eye test, impact, respect.. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT FOR LEBRON.

KAJ probably has a better case for #2 all time, LeBron is a good overall player but the recruiting process everywhere he goes is embarrassing. He's 40% in the finals, despite forming multiple super teams.

Jordan was a phenom in the 80’s. The best player on the planet by a country Mile. He never took the easy way out. Showed up to every single game, put the team on his back and played his heart out. His insane competitive drive was amazing.

What if Jordan left the Bulls and joined the Lakers in the 80’s? Returned to Chicago in the 90’s when they were better (and still recruited a star player)? Then jumped ship again for his final run recruiting Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett and other solid players to win a few more Championships before retiring? How many Championships would Jordan have? 15? 16? 17?

Michael Jordan was just on a different level of greatness. The Best Ever.


Great video for those that never got the privilege to watch Michael Jordan play.

Watch on YouTube

Cool cherry picking bruh

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[Jkam31]

Couldn't do what things? Jordan led his team in 1998 to his final championship at age 35. All with a Bulls team that had aged and had injuries. What Lebron did last night is nice and all, but it's no where near enough to put him over MJ.

I got Duncan above Lebron as well, and even Kareem has a argument for better overall career.

Even Kareem? At this point, Kareem and Jordan are the only 2 guys that have an argument over LeBron.

Tim Duncan has absolutely no argument over LeBron after this 4th chip.

He absolutely does have an argument over Lebron. Yall like to go on and on about Lebron beating the Warriors. Well Duncan is the only one that led his Spurs over the Shaq and Kobe Lakers in 1999 and 2003. Plus Duncan won the head to head Finals matchup with Lebron 2-1. Only lost the 1 because he wasn't in the game to attempt to get that rebound that led to Ray Allen sealing the deal in 2013. Disagree all you want, but that's the argument.

Duncan doesn’t sell shoes or get run on espn so these kids won’t give him his due trust me. I got laughed at saying Duncan is better than Kobe but I do live in SoCal and I agree he’s better than lebron

[Coxy]

I have had Lebron as the greatest of all time for quite a while now. It's becoming even more solidified for me as the years go on now.

[Homer38]

I could only imagine how many rings LeBron would win being coached by Phil Jackson and having arguably the best all-around player in NBA history in Scottie Pippen to go with Dennis Rodman who is arguably the best defensive player ever.

Anyone with all their brain cells can see that LeBron is superior. LeBron is an absolute cheat code, Shaq like power,with Vince Carter like leaping ability,no one can pass like LeBron in the history of the NBA this guy is rifling 20-25 mph passes end to end and on kick-outs and can finish with the left and right.

Lebron would’ve got Phil fired long ago and changed teams before Scottie got good. And by your simple minded logic of how you just described lebron than you think embiid is better than jokic. After all he is more athletic right

Scottie Pippen was with the Bulls in Jordan's 4th season ... LeBron had never had a great teammate like Pippen in his first 7 years .... And what makes you think that LeBron would got Phil Jackson fired?

I mean, in his first 7 years, if you exclude the interim head coach, LeBron had only 2 HC, including 5 years with Mike Brown.... In Jordan's first 7 years, he had 4 different HC .... So this is a myth

[AlexanderRight]

This is why i dont like cross era comparisons. Take MVP's. Lebron was 2nd this year against a legit GOAT tier RS from Giannis. Has Jordan ever had competition for MVP like Lebron did this year?

To me, Jordan was the best of his era and Lebron was the best of his. You cant compare across cause they didnt play against each other

And who did MJ lose his MVPs to after he got his first one in 88? Oh, only the greatest point guard in all time in Magic Johnson and the two greatest power forwards of all time in Barkley and Malone before Duncan/Dirk/KG showed up.

Ya, and MJ won it the year before on the 9th best team in the league. Something that almost never happens. He lost in 89 and 90 because he was barely on a top ten team both years. Those werent losses to great players, those were MVP's he was almost always never gonna win in a normal regular season with normal MVP competitors.

Now you’re just talking out of your ass...Bulls were the third seed in the conference when he won his first one in 88 and the second highest wins in the conference when Magic snagged it in 90. Chicago had the 3rd best record in the entire league when Barkley won it in 93 and Chicago also had the best record in the entire league with 69 wins when Malone won it in 97. Please learn what actually happened during that era before talking down on it.

[VanWest82]

None of that changes the fact that Jordan didn’t play the same amount of NBA ball as LeBron has. It is what it is, nobody is criticizing Jordan for it, but you have to give credit to LeBron for it, and it absolutely matters in the GOAT debate.

I agree. As I said even accounting for differences in eras (and I didn't even mention harder schedule, buses, no private jets, etc.) Lebron has the edge in longevity. I just think it's important to note those differences and the fact that it's not like MJ was off healing his body for a second threepeat like it's often portrayed.

It’s not fair to LeBron to only compare them by age...LeBron came in at 18, Jordan came in at 21. That right there makes an age comparison invalid unless you correct for that.

Yes only using age isn't fair but it's still the best way to compare imo. Lebron's main longevity advantage only happened because of a change in the draft, something MJ had no control over. If you're going to count those years it seems only fair to bring Mike's NCAA championship and Olympic gold into the discussion.

[Jcity08]

GOAT status doesn't really need to be argued for, it should be evident and obvious, thats why the constant stream of GOAT talks for Lebron the past few years is getting unbearable, there is no need to try to do the same for Jordan, if someone declares Lebron the GOAT, bringing up stats to backup MJs case won't really convince them and vice versa.

Greatness doesn't need to be argued for, it speaks for itself.

MJ is the GOAT for some and so is Lebron for others, both can be true. No ones mind will be changed for either camp. Both will eventually be resigned to History forgotten by many like Bill Russel.

[Jkam31]

anti-lebron gang in shambles. lebron has now been the clear-cut best player in the finals 8 times. east, west.. don't matter goat gonna goat.

Haha you just discredited him in your own post typical lebron fans. Count to 8 and see what his record was when he was the best player in the finals

[bisme37]

GOAT status doesn't really need to be argued for, it should be evident and obvious, thats why the constant stream of GOAT talks for Lebron the past few years is getting unbearable, there is no need to try to do the same for Jordan, if someone declares Lebron the GOAT, bringing up stats to backup MJs case won't really convince them and vice versa.

Greatness doesn't need to be argued for, it speaks for itself.

MJ is the GOAT for some and so is Lebron for others, both can be true. No ones mind will be changed for either camp. Both will eventually be resigned to History forgotten by many like Bill Russel.

I agree with your take. I still lean MJ but it's close enough now that they can both fairly be called the GOAT and choosing one over the other is simply a matter of personal taste.

[mademan]

And who did MJ lose his MVPs to after he got his first one in 88? Oh, only the greatest point guard in all time in Magic Johnson and the two greatest power forwards of all time in Barkley and Malone before Duncan/Dirk/KG showed up.

Ya, and MJ won it the year before on the 9th best team in the league. Something that almost never happens. He lost in 89 and 90 because he was barely on a top ten team both years. Those werent losses to great players, those were MVP's he was almost always never gonna win in a normal regular season with normal MVP competitors.

Now you’re just talking out of your ass...Bulls were the third seed in the conference when he won his first one in 88 and when Magic snagged it in 90. Chicago had the 3rd best record in the entire league when Barkley won it in 93 and Chicago also had the best record in the entire league with 69 wins when Malone won it in 97. Please learn what actually happened during that era before talking down on it.

Read it wrong. In those 3 years, Bulls were 7th, 10th, 4th overall. Getting 1 MVP between those years is generous enough.

[Jkam31]

Jordan had a TS% of like 54% for his last 3-peat, aged 32-34

LeBron has a TS% of 64% for his last 3 playoffs at age 32,33,35

Almost like it’s easier to score now with the rules, pace, and meaningless switching on picks

[homecourtloss]

Looks kind of silly to include dunk contest and act like those Wizards years never happened.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

“MJ was a psychopathic competitor who would bitch slap little kids and grandmas if they were trying to beat him at checkers.”

Also:

“MJ only wanted to put on a show for Bulkets’ fans and wasn’t serious about competing.”

[Jcity08]

I agree with your take. I still lean MJ but it's close enough now that they can both be fairly called the GOAT and choosing one over the other is simply a matter of personal taste.

Yeah, I'm leaning MJ only because I'm old enough thankfully to have seen the tail end of his championship career. He was larger than life back then.

But I got younger cousins in their early 20s who will fight you and argue constantly to you if you say Lebron isn't the GOAT and honestly, I dont blame them, Lebron is their idol like MJ was to many in the 90s, they were kids when Lebron started winning chips and dominating.

[therealbig3]

In what universe is 6-0 in the Finals better than 6-6 in the Finals?

Are people serious with this logic? It’s embarrassing.

And yeah, even if you point out LeBron’s absolute biggest chokes...if he leads a team to just as many titles and ALSO way more actual Finals appearances...he’s demonstrating much greater team success and more cracks at a title than the other guy. You want to talk about being a winner...that’s it.

[loserX]

6 championships doesn't erase the other number on the other side of his record. So no.

Sure it does. It means they have the same number of titles, but LeBron made it to an additional 6 finals more than Jordan. Despite what some people apparently seriously think, making it to the finals is better than not making it to the finals.

Right so basically you're telling me that the fact that Lebron led teams have been swept and beaten in embarrassing fashion from 2011-2018 doesn't matter anymore as long as he gets that 6th ring to tie up Michael Jordan. Suddenly those losses are an after thought and he's gonna be the greatest of all time in your opinion? Sorry but I'm not buying that logic one bit. You can go on and on about longevity all you want, but when it comes down to it that's all a choice and not a requirement.

I'm telling you that if having titles is what matters, having six titles is just as good as having six titles.
And having six more finals appearances is better than not having six more finals appearances.

If you don't "buy that logic" I don't know what to tell you. Losing in earlier rounds instead does not magically make you better.

[lazybatman]

Everybody wants to be like Mike - INSECURE PETTY