Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[ReddoverKobe]

In what universe is 6-0 in the Finals better than 6-6 in the Finals?

Are people serious with this logic? It’s embarrassing.

And yeah, even if you point out LeBron’s absolute biggest chokes...if he leads a team to just as many titles and ALSO way more actual Finals appearances...he’s demonstrating much greater team success and more cracks at a title than the other guy. You want to talk about being a winner...that’s it.

If you ignore that he left teams the minute it got hard to start new super teams I can kind of see your point. But you can’t ignore that he simply stacked the deck for himself making it to the finals that much isn’t hard when you’re playing low level competition with a stacked hand

Left Cle to go to a Miami team that missed the playoffs four years in a row. Left Miami to go back to Cle with two guys who never won anything, then went to LA alone. Also are we pretending he was not doing this against the rest of the NBA that was grouping up to beat him?

[Jkam31]

No one is even making that point anyway. It's not that Lebron lost -- it's that he got outplayed and lost. He quit in 2010 and got outplayed in 2011. KD arguably outplayed him in 2017 with Lebron as his primary defender, and then played him to a draw in 2018. That's the argument, along with the fact that Lebron has repeatedly stacked the deck in favor.

MJ got outplayed a 6 foot midget in Isiah Thomas what a bum!

IT never outplayed MJ in a series.

Why did I you even entertain that post Isiah Thomas is a **** legend not some Jason Terry guy he’ll jimmy butler isn’t touching Isiah

[Homer38]

Sure it does. It means they have the same number of titles, but LeBron made it to an additional 6 finals more than Jordan. Despite what some people apparently seriously think, making it to the finals is better than not making it to the finals.

The 6-0 in the Finals argument is the stupidest argument ever. In which world losing in the second round, for example, is a better outcome than losing in the Finals?

What’s the best team lebron beat on his way to the finals in the East? Hell whose the best player he faced in the East? Lowry, PG, Holford, maybe Oladipo some terrifying names

Since 2012,you need 3-4 HOF caliber players in your team who play to a high level to beat LBJ in a playoffs series.Or that LBJ is in a depleted team(2015) or in a bad team(2018)

[Jkam31]

In what universe is 6-0 in the Finals better than 6-6 in the Finals?

Are people serious with this logic? It’s embarrassing.

And yeah, even if you point out LeBron’s absolute biggest chokes...if he leads a team to just as many titles and ALSO way more actual Finals appearances...he’s demonstrating much greater team success and more cracks at a title than the other guy. You want to talk about being a winner...that’s it.

If you ignore that he left teams the minute it got hard to start new super teams I can kind of see your point. But you can’t ignore that he simply stacked the deck for himself making it to the finals that much isn’t hard when you’re playing low level competition with a stacked hand

Left Cle to go to a Miami team that missed the playoffs four years in a row. Left Miami to go back to Cle with two guys who never won anything, then went to LA alone. Also are we pretending he was not doing this against the rest of the NBA that was grouping up to beat him?

Haha he took a major chance teaming with bosh and wade

[AussieCeltic]

Why is Kareem so heavily disrespected?

He has more titles, more MVP’s, more all nba defensive teams, more all nba teams..

Lebron can catch him, but he’s not there yet. He’s certainly not at MJ’s level yet which is nothing to be ashamed of. He’s still playing! Let him finish his career to see where he ends

[ReddoverKobe]

If you ignore that he left teams the minute it got hard to start new super teams I can kind of see your point. But you can’t ignore that he simply stacked the deck for himself making it to the finals that much isn’t hard when you’re playing low level competition with a stacked hand

Left Cle to go to a Miami team that missed the playoffs four years in a row. Left Miami to go back to Cle with two guys who never won anything, then went to LA alone. Also are we pretending he was not doing this against the rest of the NBA that was grouping up to beat him?

Haha he took a major chance teaming with bosh and wade

Kind of. Look at McGrady and Hill for example. You never know what is going to happen. He did not have the luxury of an all time coach and MVP level player alongside him for ten years.

[FinnTheHuman]

Bill Russell's narrative is still the best. His team won 11 of 13 Finals, beat the two teams he'd ever lost in the playoffs to in subsequent playoffs. He never had significant injuries that caused him to miss games (unless you count winning an Olympic medal in the same season as a championship), while playing tons of minutes. He didn't care about his numbers, in an era where his biggest rival was all about the numbers. He was just about winning where it matters, and did that to a level no one else can touch. How many HOFers does Bill Russell have without doing all that winning, without being the ultimate "win" guy? He came off a better college career, too... led his team to two NCAA championships with a mostly-nothing team (apart from KC Jones).

To paraphrase Bird -- everyone is fighting for #2.

Wasn't Bird the same guy who said that MJ is a god and the best player in the league in '86? God sounds better than GOAT to me, maybe it's God>GOAT>the rest?

I mean, c'mon, 9 out of those 11 rings were in the 50s and 60s, nobody cares about an argument favoring a guy who played versus only 7 different teams to get those 9 rings in NBA's elementary school phase. You shoulda seen my soccer stats when playing vs my classmates, that's some GOAT stuff right there. The rivalries I've formed over the years playing against the same guys from my neighborhood, and sure, beating the only guys who have ever beaten me at some point I'm certain... Oh, you wouldn't believe it!

I'm sorry he didn't play in an era when basketball was filled with talent and a globally most popular sport after soccer, maybe he would've shown he'd be better than all that competition, but I'm sorry, he just can't, life ain't fair.

Russell won a ring in a league with 15 teams, beating two of the best teams in the league without HC advantage.

These kind of posts should be banned on RealGM...

Well, you obviously lack reading comprehension if you don't see that I said 9 out of 11 are with one-digit number of teams.

I think posts where someone argues against something someone else didn't say should be banned from realgm..

[kabal07]

Why do these threads continue?
Both of these players are All Time greats! Put them in any era and they dominate. They adjust their play styles. They would accumulate accolades - both individual and team.
All everyone is trying to do is tear down one mans legacy to promote another. MJ is my favourite player but anyone can see how much LeBron has given to this game. And continues to give. Very few players have as well rounder career as he does.

Just appreciate their greatness!!!

[The Warrior]

Jordan is the GOAT based on achievement.

LeBron is a far better basketball player. Even the low tier all-stars today would have been superstars in the 90's. In every sport, the athletes gets better, faster, and more skilled with each passing decade.

Oh this take again. Yeah DeRozan, PG, Ingram in the 80s and 90s would have rivaled MJ and dominated the NBA.

If you're really going to use that as an argument then you have to account for how said players in previous decades would have faired in newer eras since they too would be "better, faster, and more skilled".

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

[twyzted]

Assuming you’re a laker fan by your username... you’re spending the day after..

Kobe fan only, was rooting for Jimmy Buckets and the Heat.

Kobe would be disgusted that you backed the Heat

You do your thing to honour him: rip down Lakers and LeBron

LeBron and Lakers do their thing to honour him: bring another championship to his city and support his family

Are you seriously ripping a guy for rooting another team then lakers because kobe is his favorite player?
Maybe he was a kobe fan not a laker fan. He has no obligation to the lakers. And using kobes death against someone on a forum as a mod?
And how are you a mod?

[nzahir]

Why is Kareem so heavily disrespected?

He has more titles, more MVP’s, more all nba defensive teams, more all nba teams..

Lebron can catch him, but he’s not there yet. He’s certainly not at MJ’s level yet which is nothing to be ashamed of. He’s still playing! Let him finish his career to see where he ends

You making up data or am I wrong?

Lebron has 13 1st teams and 2 2nd teams
KAJ has 10 1st teams and 5 2nd teams

So Lebron has already passed him there.

In Lebron's peak he was 2nd in DPOY and much more versatile. Can Kareem guard a guy like Curry, Parker or Rose? Then a guy like Butler or PG? When looking at defense, I see if they can play in different eras and moments.

4 fmvp to 2 fmvps...

Kareem played in the very weak 70s also when he racked up those mvps

The biggest thing is Lebron's ability to do so much more than Kareem ever could.

Lebron can and has been the leader in scoring, rebounding, playmaking, and defense.

Kareem, because he is a traditional big, needs a great guard/playmaker. What was he doing w/o Magic and Oscar? Not like he could drag scrubs to the finals

Lebron will soon have his points record as well and be in the all time top 5 in assists

[twyzted]

Look at this image you who have a hard time understanding why 4/10 is not as impressive as 6/6

Do you see the awards for losing in champions league finals?
Do you see the 2nd place with 97 points?

No you see gold medals, titles, cup wins.
Do you think any liverpool fan would say to a united supporter when being made fun of because getting 97 points and still not win the league? no

There is a team in germany called bayer leverkusen.
They one year were leading the bundesliga, in the cup final and champions league finals.
Well somehow they lost the league the cup and cl final.
Their nickname by other german supporters is neverkusen.

Almost winning is not winning, 6/6 is better than 4/10.
Winning more is better than almost winning.

[loserX]

Look at this image you who have a hard time understanding why 4/10 is not as impressive as 6/6

Do you see the awards for losing in champions league finals?
Do you see the 2nd place with 97 points?

No you see gold medals, titles, cup wins.
Do you think any liverpool fan would say to a united supporter when being made fun of because getting 97 points and still not win the league? no

There is a team in germany called bayer leverkusen.
They one year were leading the bundesliga, in the cup final and champions league finals.
Well somehow they lost the league the cup and cl final.
Their nickname by other german supporters is neverkusen.

Almost winning is not winning, 6/6 is better than 4/10.
Winning more is better than almost winning.

Bill Russell has 11 titles. Why are we even talking about Jordan, who barely has half that?

Either you can be a better player despite fewer titles, or you can't.

If you can't, Russell is the GOAT, full stop.
If you can, then Jordan's titles alone do not make him better than LeBron.

This reductionist double standard needs to go away.

[AussieCeltic]

Why is Kareem so heavily disrespected?

He has more titles, more MVP’s, more all nba defensive teams, more all nba teams..

Lebron can catch him, but he’s not there yet. He’s certainly not at MJ’s level yet which is nothing to be ashamed of. He’s still playing! Let him finish his career to see where he ends

You making up data or am I wrong?

Lebron has 13 1st teams and 2 2nd teams
KAJ has 10 1st teams and 5 2nd teams

So Lebron has already passed him there.

In Lebron's peak he was 2nd in DPOY and much more versatile. Can Kareem guard a guy like Curry, Parker or Rose? Then a guy like Butler or PG? When looking at defense, I see if they can play in different eras and moments.

4 fmvp to 2 fmvps...

Kareem played in the very weak 70s also when he racked up those mvps

The biggest thing is Lebron's ability to do so much more than Kareem ever could.

Lebron can and has been the leader in scoring, rebounding, playmaking, and defense.

Kareem, because he is a traditional big, needs a great guard/playmaker. What was he doing w/o Magic and Oscar? Not like he could drag scrubs to the finals

Lebron will soon have his points record as well and be in the all time top 5 in assists

Could Lebron guard Wilt, Hakeem, McHale/Parish? No. He certainly wouldn’t be able to stop KAJ in the post.

Lebron passed him in all nba first teams and FMVP but that’s it. KAJ has everything else wrapped up.

So now Lebron fans use the FMVPs in this instance, but when people say MJ has more, that’s different? Which is it?

Kareem has better accolades and longevity, MJ has a better accolades and peak. Lebron is third. Not saying he can’t climb that ladder but he’s just not there yet

[dribble1614]

lebron isn't close to jordan. lebron is perhaps a top 15 player of all-time. great player but too scared to compete against other superstars and can't win it without trying to stack the deck and teaming up with other superstars every 4 years. he's a weak competitor with inferior playoffs and finals stats/performances despite having far superior help. he will never catch jordan.

[AussieCeltic]

Look at this image you who have a hard time understanding why 4/10 is not as impressive as 6/6

Do you see the awards for losing in champions league finals?
Do you see the 2nd place with 97 points?

No you see gold medals, titles, cup wins.
Do you think any liverpool fan would say to a united supporter when being made fun of because getting 97 points and still not win the league? no

There is a team in germany called bayer leverkusen.
They one year were leading the bundesliga, in the cup final and champions league finals.
Well somehow they lost the league the cup and cl final.
Their nickname by other german supporters is neverkusen.

Almost winning is not winning, 6/6 is better than 4/10.
Winning more is better than almost winning.

Bill Russell has 11 titles. Why are we even talking about Jordan, who barely has half that?

Either you can be a better player despite fewer titles, or you can't.

If you can't, Russell is the GOAT, full stop.
If you can, then Jordan's titles alone do not make him better than LeBron.

This reductionist double standard needs to go away.

No, you need to factor that in with individual accomplishments. MJ has Lebron beat in everything bar longevity. But if you want longevity, then KAJ is better.

[loserX]

Look at this image you who have a hard time understanding why 4/10 is not as impressive as 6/6

Do you see the awards for losing in champions league finals?
Do you see the 2nd place with 97 points?

No you see gold medals, titles, cup wins.
Do you think any liverpool fan would say to a united supporter when being made fun of because getting 97 points and still not win the league? no

There is a team in germany called bayer leverkusen.
They one year were leading the bundesliga, in the cup final and champions league finals.
Well somehow they lost the league the cup and cl final.
Their nickname by other german supporters is neverkusen.

Almost winning is not winning, 6/6 is better than 4/10.
Winning more is better than almost winning.

Bill Russell has 11 titles. Why are we even talking about Jordan, who barely has half that?

Either you can be a better player despite fewer titles, or you can't.

If you can't, Russell is the GOAT, full stop.
If you can, then Jordan's titles alone do not make him better than LeBron.

This reductionist double standard needs to go away.

No, you need to factor that in with individual accomplishments. MJ has Lebron beat in everything bar longevity. But if you want longevity, then KAJ is better.

I think you need to factor it in with a lot of things, of which individual accomplishments are only one.

In any case 6>4 and 6/6>4/10 are, on their own, pretty poor arguments. People need to stop ending their analysis here.

[JonFromVA]

In a few years when fans are calling Jordan a relic, Russell will still have 11 rings and 8 in a row.

In an eight team league.

...and 14 teams league.

Yup ... but even when it was 8, so what?

The level of competition at any point in the NBA is relative to the number of teams and the size of the talent pool. The later not just some number we can just pull off basketball-reference.

Plus the number of teams which actually matter is typically very few, so much so, that a 5th seed like the Heat going to the finals is a "big surprise".

Jordan fans who dismiss Russell are going to be pretty disappointed as the next generation of fans born after their icon stopped playing dismiss him for (insert dumb reasons here).

Fact is there is no GOAT, no Mount Rushmore, never was one, and never will be ... it's a fabrication. There are just all-time greats, and that category doesn't care if your name is Babe Ruth and you played in 1927. Greatness is judged by the mark a player left on the sport in their time.

[ReddoverKobe]

Look at this image you who have a hard time understanding why 4/10 is not as impressive as 6/6

Do you see the awards for losing in champions league finals?
Do you see the 2nd place with 97 points?

No you see gold medals, titles, cup wins.
Do you think any liverpool fan would say to a united supporter when being made fun of because getting 97 points and still not win the league? no

There is a team in germany called bayer leverkusen.
They one year were leading the bundesliga, in the cup final and champions league finals.
Well somehow they lost the league the cup and cl final.
Their nickname by other german supporters is neverkusen.

Almost winning is not winning, 6/6 is better than 4/10.
Winning more is better than almost winning.

Right, thats why we have to say Jimmy Butler is a worse player now and gets zero credit for this playoff run.

To view the NBA or any sport as title or failure is a joke.