Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[Dino353]

I've tried to convince myself in the past that Jordan was better than LeBron but I felt like I was lying to myself. I literally grow bored watching Jordan, he's not the same athlete LeBron is period. We could make up hypotheticals all day about what Jordan would've done against the likes of LeBron,Curry,Durant,Kobe,and Duncan but there is no way he wins the 6 titles which are keeping him relevant when it comes to the debate with LeBron.

Who really stood up to Jordan? Magic and BIrd couldn't due to their circumstances, and the one player who potentially would've in Hakeem never got the chance to face Jordan.

[Retro_Junkball]

I don't argue with that ranking, but the opinions of absolute certainty are getting over-the-top.

If you go by accolades, LBJ is right there with Kareem. Just based on accolades, you can make a case for either one. Simply Google search Kareem vs. LeBron to get the head-to-head.

Nowadays, it seems to be advanced stats and titles that people are looking at. But once you go past Jordan, the data collection needed for some advanced stats gets poor. I don't think you can even get rpm for Jordan.

I think GOAT should be largely titles, MVPs+FMVPs, all-NBA selections, NBA defensive selections, with bonus points for leading league in statistical categories and true scoring % relative to position at time.

[Smash3]

MJs Finals Debut

Watch on YouTube

LBJ Finals Debut

Watch on YouTube

MJs Killer instinct just shows through your screen...Not even close

MJ's 3 years of college show.

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Jordan's NCAA title, 2 finals appearances, and his olympic gold medal shows.

LeBron really has Jordan fans in shambles, bringing up tape comparing a 22 year old Bron with 27 year old Jordan

[Smash3]

LeBron is the greatest of all time, the only argument Jordan fans have are his six rings, but no way Jordan wins six titles in this era.

Replace MJ with Bron:

2007 - the one man show of MJ wouldn't get the Cavs past Spurs
2011- I believe MJ would have won this title because he was more complete player at 27 than Bron was, and he would have handled the Mavs defense much better.
2012 – Title
2013 - Title
2014 - MJ with a broken down Wade would have lost to the Spurs team which was clicking on all cylinders.
2015 - MJ with no Irving and Love would have lost to GSW
2016 - MJ is not the leader Bron was and wouldn't have gotten everyone on the same page to stage the comeback.
2017 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2018 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2020 – MJ wheel's would have fell off in his 17th season and AD isn't carrying MJ to a title.

That's three or four titles depending on if he could co-exist with a score-first player like Irving and play at a MVP level in his 17th season

The truth is by the time we got peak MJ his competition had retired. I believe Bron would have easily gotten six rings against:

91 – Over the hill Magic led Lakers aren't stopping Bron
92 – Easy title over Drexler.
93 – Matches up great with Barkley and would win this series
96 – GP isn't stopping Bron, another title
97 – Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone
98 - Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone

[GhosDini]

I don't argue with that ranking, but the opinions of absolute certainty are getting over-the-top.

If you go by accolades, LBJ is right there with Kareem. Just based on accolades, you can make a case for either one. Simply Google search Kareem vs. LeBron to get the head-to-head.

Nowadays, it seems to be advanced stats and titles that people are looking at. But once you go past Jordan, the data collection needed for some advanced stats gets poor. I don't think you can even get rpm for Jordan.

I think GOAT should be largely titles, MVPs+FMVPs, all-NBA selections, NBA defensive selections, with bonus points for leading league in statistical categories and true scoring % relative to position at time.

I think when you're talking pure on paper accolades and accomplishments I think you can break it down into tiers like this:

Jordan/Russell/Kareem

Lebron/Magic/Duncan

Kobe/Shaq/Bird/Wilt

Hakeem/DrJ/Moses/Steph/Pettit/KD

Lebron is inching his way up but he's not on that top tier yet.

[Bigfactsstackz]

LeBron is the greatest of all time, the only argument Jordan fans have are his six rings, but no way Jordan wins six titles in this era. Replace Jordan with Bron in:

2007 - the one man show of MJ wouldn't get the Cavs past Spurs
2011- I believe MJ would have won this title because he was more complete player at 27 than Bron was, and he would have handled the Mavs defense much better.
2012 – Title
2013 - Title
2014 - MJ with a broken down Wade would have lost to the Spurs team which was clicking on all cylinders.
2015 - MJ with no Irving and Love would have lost to GSW
2016 - MJ is not the leader Bron was and wouldn't have gotten everyone on the same page to stage the comeback.
2017 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2018 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2020 – MJ wheel's would have fell off in his 17th season and AD isn't carrying MJ to a title.

The truth is by the time we got peak MJ his competition had retired. I believe Bron would have easily gotten six rings against:

91 – Over the hill Magic led Lakers aren't stopping Bron
92 – Easy title over Drexler.
93 – Matches up great with Barkley and would win this series
96 – GP isn't stopping Bron, another title
97 – Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone
98 - Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone

False my friend false

[Smash3]

LeBron is the greatest of all time, the only argument Jordan fans have are his six rings, but no way Jordan wins six titles in this era. Replace Jordan with Bron in:

2007 - the one man show of MJ wouldn't get the Cavs past Spurs
2011- I believe MJ would have won this title because he was more complete player at 27 than Bron was, and he would have handled the Mavs defense much better.
2012 – Title
2013 - Title
2014 - MJ with a broken down Wade would have lost to the Spurs team which was clicking on all cylinders.
2015 - MJ with no Irving and Love would have lost to GSW
2016 - MJ is not the leader Bron was and wouldn't have gotten everyone on the same page to stage the comeback.
2017 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2018 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2020 – MJ wheel's would have fell off in his 17th season and AD isn't carrying MJ to a title.

The truth is by the time we got peak MJ his competition had retired. I believe Bron would have easily gotten six rings against:

91 – Over the hill Magic led Lakers aren't stopping Bron
92 – Easy title over Drexler.
93 – Matches up great with Barkley and would win this series
96 – GP isn't stopping Bron, another title
97 – Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone
98 - Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone

False my friend false

Do you believe MJ would have beaten the Spurs in 07 or 2014?

[Bigfactsstackz]

LeBron is the greatest of all time, the only argument Jordan fans have are his six rings, but no way Jordan wins six titles in this era. Replace Jordan with Bron in:

2007 - the one man show of MJ wouldn't get the Cavs past Spurs
2011- I believe MJ would have won this title because he was more complete player at 27 than Bron was, and he would have handled the Mavs defense much better.
2012 – Title
2013 - Title
2014 - MJ with a broken down Wade would have lost to the Spurs team which was clicking on all cylinders.
2015 - MJ with no Irving and Love would have lost to GSW
2016 - MJ is not the leader Bron was and wouldn't have gotten everyone on the same page to stage the comeback.
2017 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2018 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2020 – MJ wheel's would have fell off in his 17th season and AD isn't carrying MJ to a title.

The truth is by the time we got peak MJ his competition had retired. I believe Bron would have easily gotten six rings against:

91 – Over the hill Magic led Lakers aren't stopping Bron
92 – Easy title over Drexler.
93 – Matches up great with Barkley and would win this series
96 – GP isn't stopping Bron, another title
97 – Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone
98 - Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone

False my friend false

Do you believe MJ would have beaten the Spurs in 07 or 2014?

I’m a spur fan and I’ll tell no way we sweep or gentlemen sweep if you replace Lebron with Mike ... Lebron was always a lot easier to contain Then guys like Kobe and KD for us.

[Smash3]

False my friend false

Do you believe MJ would have beaten the Spurs in 07 or 2014?

I’m a spur fan and I’ll tell no way we sweep or gentlemen sweep if you replace Lebron with Mike ... Lebron was always a lot easier to contain Then guys like Kobe and KD for us.

Semantics my friend, you can say he would have won a game or two more, but at the end of the day MJ wasn't carrying the bad cavs team past the Spurs in 07 or would have been able to stop the offensive orchestra Pop was playing in 2014 with Wade on one leg.

I also hope you appreciate the offensive evolution of Bron, I agree he was easier to contain in the past, but 2017-18 and onward he has been extremely hard to contain as he improved upon every facet of his offensive game.

[Brofessor24]

He'll never even be top 5 until he wins without Klutch sports and rigged super teams. If he stayed on Cleveland his whole career and had 4 rings I would be listening.

Keep sipping that haterade.

David Falk never moved clients to satisfy MJ. The salary rules in the NBA didn't help the B7lls maintain the best team by criminally underpaying Jordan and Pippen to be able to add talent where others couldn't. Jordan didn't retire the moment his team was no good and didn't unretire to get his new team to the playoffs and fail.

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Agents should satisfy their clients' desires. Besides, there is no proof that Falk didn't do that. Perhaps he did and no one knows about it.

I'm pretty sure that towards the end of his Bulls career Pippen was underpaid. At the end of the day, all teams have to play by the same salary cap rules.

LeBron hasn't retired yet.

[Brofessor24]

I don't argue with that ranking, but the opinions of absolute certainty are getting over-the-top.

If you go by accolades, LBJ is right there with Kareem. Just based on accolades, you can make a case for either one. Simply Google search Kareem vs. LeBron to get the head-to-head.

Nowadays, it seems to be advanced stats and titles that people are looking at. But once you go past Jordan, the data collection needed for some advanced stats gets poor. I don't think you can even get rpm for Jordan.

I think GOAT should be largely titles, MVPs+FMVPs, all-NBA selections, NBA defensive selections, with bonus points for leading league in statistical categories and true scoring % relative to position at time.

I think when you're talking pure on paper accolades and accomplishments I think you can break it down into tiers like this:

Jordan/Russell/Kareem

Lebron/Magic/Duncan

Kobe/Shaq/Bird/Wilt

Hakeem/DrJ/Moses/Steph/Pettit/KD

Lebron is inching his way up but he's not on that top tier yet.

IMO he is definitely in the top tier.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Jordan played against GOAT type competition, who are the GOATs LBJ faced in their prime sans the Celtics and Spurs(who actually weren't in their prime, both teams past their actual prime).

MJ beat past their prime GOATs in an injured Bird, a Worthy-injured Lakers and a worn out Pistons. He then was pushed by Ewing's Knicks who had one quality player.

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He beat a C's team in their mid 30s and a Spurs team close or in their mid 30s and lost to that Spurs team, too.

I said played dude. Who has LBJ beaten for real tho? His greatest kill and claim is the Warriors. That's it, outside of that in the East it was bummy teams. Pandemic P and the Pacers, the IT's Cs, and the old C's. That Spurs team was fantastic to watch, but no **** way in hell LBj should've lost to an over the hill Duncan, Manu and slightly past his prime and kinda washed Tony Parker. The GOAT lost to his now teammate Danny Green and Kawhi in that series.

I'm sure there was more competition way back in the day (due to smaller pool of players) but skillswise is much greater today - there is no denying that every player in the L today is way more skilled than the average NBA player in the 1980s/1990s.

[Paddy Brosso]

The problem with the "GOAT debate" is the lack of consensus concerning the criteria to choose him. Imo, in order to proclaim a particular player as the goat, the following factors should be taken into account:
1) Championships won
2) RS MVP's
3) Finals MVP's
4) All-Nba selections
5) All-defensive selections
6) Stats
7) Longevity
8) Defense
I am sure there are others...
Anyway, imo there are 4 players who are clearly above the rest: Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LeBron James and Bill Russell. The goat for me? Well, I'd say Jordan is still better than the rest, but LeBron can still overtake him, IF he wins another MVP, another Ring, becomes the all-time leading scorer, etc

[Clutch0z24]

MJ's 3 years of college show.

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Jordan's NCAA title, 2 finals appearances, and his olympic gold medal shows.

LeBron really has Jordan fans in shambles, bringing up tape comparing a 22 year old Bron with 27 year old Jordan

Its not about the age its the fact MJ was dominant im bringing up this video to compare the Finals debut....

Yes LBJ was young but even at LBJ Peak he never looked that dominant in any finals series that i can remember

LBJ had final series loses where he looked timid and shaky...MJ never had a moment like that in the finals

[LivingLegend]

Michael Jordan lost more than he won as well. Losing in the first round or not making the playoffs is not better than losing in the finals.

Jordan played against GOAT type competition, who are the GOATs LBJ faced in their prime sans the Celtics and Spurs(who actually weren't in their prime, both teams past their actual prime).

Well besides Duncan/Manu/Parker/Pierce/Garnett/Allen ---- he has also faced and beat Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Klay/Westbrook (twice)/Harden (twice)/Butler (twice),Lillard/Melo/Jokic/PG13/Vince Carter/Billups/Sheed/Kidd/Arenas

[Smash3]

Jordan's NCAA title, 2 finals appearances, and his olympic gold medal shows.

LeBron really has Jordan fans in shambles, bringing up tape comparing a 22 year old Bron with 27 year old Jordan

Its not about the age its the fact MJ was dominant im bringing up this video to compare the Finals debut....

Yes LBJ was young but even at LBJ Peak he never looked that dominant in any finals series that i can remember

LBJ had final series loses where he looked timid and shaky...MJ never had a moment like that in the finals

Peak Bron vs GSW in 2016:

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.3 blocks, 2.6 steals, 48.6 FG%, 37.1 3PT%

Yeah pretty pedestrian....

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance.

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

[Sgt Major]

Larry Bird on MJ: https://theundefeated.com/features/the-day-larry-bird-said-its-just-god-disguised-as-michael-jordan/

“I would never have called him the greatest player I’d ever seen if I didn’t mean it,” Bird told The Boston Globe. “It’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

“He is the most exciting, most awesome player in the game,” Bird told the Post. “I didn’t think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us the past two games.”

[TheMartian]

Lebron is the goat. Jordan couldnt do these things at 35.

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Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?

[OdomFan]

LeBron is the greatest of all time, the only argument Jordan fans have are his six rings, but no way Jordan wins six titles in this era.

Replace MJ with Bron:

2007 - the one man show of MJ wouldn't get the Cavs past Spurs
2011- I believe MJ would have won this title because he was more complete player at 27 than Bron was, and he would have handled the Mavs defense much better.
2012 – Title
2013 - Title
2014 - MJ with a broken down Wade would have lost to the Spurs team which was clicking on all cylinders.
2015 - MJ with no Irving and Love would have lost to GSW
2016 - MJ is not the leader Bron was and wouldn't have gotten everyone on the same page to stage the comeback.
2017 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2018 – No one is beating the super-team that is GSW + KD
2020 – MJ wheel's would have fell off in his 17th season and AD isn't carrying MJ to a title.

That's three or four titles depending on if he could co-exist with a score-first player like Irving and play at a MVP level in his 17th season

The truth is by the time we got peak MJ his competition had retired. I believe Bron would have easily gotten six rings against:

91 – Over the hill Magic led Lakers aren't stopping Bron
92 – Easy title over Drexler.
93 – Matches up great with Barkley and would win this series
96 – GP isn't stopping Bron, another title
97 – Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone
98 - Bron and Pippen would be too much for Stockton and Malone

The biggest flaw in your post here (and most posts like it) is that you're assuming everything stays exactly as it was if you place either player in the others era. Firstly the obvious thing is that the front office would not construct the roster the exact same way. Like for one. Why would the Bulls even bother trading for Pippen in 1987 if they already have Lebron at the 3. You can go on and on about Lebron being able to play multiple positions, but again you don't know for sure anymore than the rest of us how either Collins or Jackson would want to put that line up together during that time in this alternate universe.

So none of us knows what would happen. We don't even know if Phil would ever even become the Bulls coach. Maybe Collins ends up remains the coach and Jackson goes on to become a hall of famer coach for somebody else.

Over in the 00s Maybe Carlos Boozer clicks better with MJ and decides to remain with the Cavs instead of going to Utah, and maybe Andre Miller never leaves among other potential changes. It is all 100% just speculation so it's silly to just say the Lebron led 90S Bulls would steamroll through the 97/98 Jazz or any of those other teams. Same with the results you put together for the Jordan led Cavs.

Also you have to remember the age differences. Lebron came into the league out of high school. I don't recall the 80s having too many if any coming out of High School straight to the NBA so maybe Lebron goes to college for a few years if not all 4. This potentially having him going some where else instead of Chicago. He'd still be from Akron. So maybe he'd want to be in a Cavs uniform. Maybe Cleveland drafts him in 1986 instead of Brad Daugherty, or they get lucky and manage to get both of em. Again, none of us knows.