Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[FlatearthZorro]

Michael Jordan lost more than he won as well. Losing in the first round or not making the playoffs is not better than losing in the finals.

Jordan played against GOAT type competition, who are the GOATs LBJ faced in their prime sans the Celtics and Spurs(who actually weren't in their prime, both teams past their actual prime).

Well besides Duncan/Manu/Parker/Pierce/Garnett/Allen ---- he has also faced and beat Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Klay/Westbrook (twice)/Harden (twice)/Butler (twice),Lillard/Melo/Jokic/PG13/Vince Carter/Billups/Sheed/Kidd/Arenas

Harden, Lillard, Carmelo, Westbrook are not GOAT type competition. I really like Durant but I will judge him once I see what he does in NY as he had 1 Finals appearence before joining GSW. Vince Carter is overrated AS ****. Butler is also a good player, proved he's top 10 in the league but lets not get overcarried again here. Jokic is just fun to watch, I dunno if I ever expect him to win it all, he might, but I dunno, his athletic ability is the one of a poker player, which kinda makes him unique. Arenas was again nothing special- great scorer and that Wizards team was decent, again nothing legendary there. Curry I like, he's very unique and I'd put him on that list. Kawhi was 23-24 when he faced LBJ, and was just making his leap.

Compare these players only to;

Thomas, Dumars, Bird, McHale, Magic, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Miller, young Shaq and Hardaway.

[FlatearthZorro]

The problem with the "GOAT debate" is the lack of consensus concerning the criteria to choose him. Imo, in order to proclaim a particular player as the goat, the following factors should be taken into account:
1) Championships won
2) RS MVP's
3) Finals MVP's
4) All-Nba selections
5) All-defensive selections
6) Stats
7) Longevity
8) Defense
I am sure there are others...
Anyway, imo there are 4 players who are clearly above the rest: Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LeBron James and Bill Russell. The goat for me? Well, I'd say Jordan is still better than the rest, but LeBron can still overtake him, IF he wins another MVP, another Ring, becomes the all-time leading scorer, etc

I mean exactly what I've been saying, you can't have half of another man's accomplishments, while running the entire league and be better than him. LBJ has been a frontrunner for a decade. Not to mentio LBJ has played ball now what 2 years more than Jordan. And half of his career has been ring chasing.

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

[loserX]

Times they lead both teams in GmSC in the finals:
Jordan 5
LeBron 6

So LeBron was actually the best player on the court in the finals more times than Michael Jordan.

Fun list, but this one surprised me. Who was the player who out GmSC-ed Jordan in the year it wasn't him?

Shawn Kemp in the 96 finals.

Well I would not have guessed that. Thanks for the trivia!

[Johnny Bball]

Just compare the film, it's not really close.

Regardless, there are plenty of aspects of 90s ball that made it easier for Jordan too. Comparing what they're doing to league average puts their production in perspective relative to the rest of the players from their era. It's a totally fair way of comparing it.

But whatever hurts the Jordan narrative doesn't count I guess.

I don't have to compare film, I'm old enough to remember scores of 82-75 in the finals and to know you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, this is a narrative alright, just one slanted to younger people thinking the past is trash for everything. And it's clueless.

Low scores were from slower pace, fewer 3s and stagnant isolation offences to take advantage of arcane illegal defence rules. The schemes were not as sophisticated as today. They were simply physically tougher.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

No, it wasn’t from pace. You can just google the yearly pace of play you know.

As for your other **** comment... yes the entire world was dumber just because your generation wasn’t in it and nothing could be sophisticated.

[jason bourne]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

I think MJ is the GOAT, too. So, I was thinking when would LeBron surpass him. We are in the open floor, 3-pt era now. We had the previous 3-pt game, but too many teams just stood around and shot from outside with lousy shooters. They missed and the teams kept running up and down the court shooting and missing ad nauseum. That was mostly Jordan's 3-pt era. Now, we probably have the best long distance shooters in the world coming up. One can't just shoot the 3-ball back and forth, but we still see it happen sometime. It could be the pressure has been ratcheted up like in the playoffs.

Second argument is when did anyone win a championship in "The Bubble" which became very stressful in and of itself. The players couldn't be just motivated on by the crowds or booing in different arenas. It was good, but mostly bad.

There are other reasons his proponents give such as most playoffs games, so it's worth noting. I watched a 2-pt era great college game last night (Len Bias vs. David Robinson) and it was different, but kinda boring. Not as open as today. The 2-pt era, even with the 3-pt line It also had it's great defensive teams and inside play by big men that we don't have today. Thus, I still give Jordan the nod, but if LeBron wins another title with say another different team, then I probably have to change my mind.

Here's an example of a team that were big and rough inside which we do not have anymore and the excitement they provided. This was one team Jordan to overcome. And sure I miss some of the bigness and roughness inside. Wow.

Watch on YouTube

[Homer38]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

I think MJ is the GOAT, too. So, I was thinking when would LeBron surpass him. We are in the open floor, 3-pt era now. We had the previous 3-pt game, but too many teams just stood around and shot from outside with lousy shooters. They missed and the teams kept running up and down the court shooting and missing ad nauseum. That was mostly Jordan's 3-pt era. Now, we probably have the best long distance shooters in the world coming up. One can't just shoot the 3-ball back and forth, but we still see it happen sometime. It could be the pressure has been ratcheted up like in the playoffs.

Second argument is when did anyone win a championship in "The Bubble" which became very stressful in and of itself. The players couldn't be just motivated on by the crowds or booing in different arenas. It was good, but mostly bad.

There are other reasons his proponents give such as most playoffs games, so it's worth noting. I watched a 2-pt era great college game last night (Len Bias vs. David Robinson) and it was different, but kinda boring. Not as open as today. The 2-pt era, even with the 3-pt line It also had it's great defensive teams and inside play by big men that we don't have today. Thus, I still give Jordan the nod, but if LeBron wins another title with say another different team, then I probably have to change my mind.

Here's an example of a team that were big and rough inside which we do not have anymore and the excitement they provided. This was one team Jordan gave trouble to. And sure I miss some of the bigness and roughness inside. Wow.

Watch on YouTube

The knicks had a great defense,but their offense was bottom 10,something bottom 5.The Knicks had also only one HOF in their team.

[twyzted]

Read on Twitter

This is next level insecurity.

[jason bourne]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

I think MJ is the GOAT, too. So, I was thinking when would LeBron surpass him. We are in the open floor, 3-pt era now. We had the previous 3-pt game, but too many teams just stood around and shot from outside with lousy shooters. They missed and the teams kept running up and down the court shooting and missing ad nauseum. That was mostly Jordan's 3-pt era. Now, we probably have the best long distance shooters in the world coming up. One can't just shoot the 3-ball back and forth, but we still see it happen sometime. It could be the pressure has been ratcheted up like in the playoffs.

Second argument is when did anyone win a championship in "The Bubble" which became very stressful in and of itself. The players couldn't be just motivated on by the crowds or booing in different arenas. It was good, but mostly bad.

There are other reasons his proponents give such as most playoffs games, so it's worth noting. I watched a 2-pt era great college game last night (Len Bias vs. David Robinson) and it was different, but kinda boring. Not as open as today. The 2-pt era, even with the 3-pt line It also had it's great defensive teams and inside play by big men that we don't have today. Thus, I still give Jordan the nod, but if LeBron wins another title with say another different team, then I probably have to change my mind.

Here's an example of a team that were big and rough inside which we do not have anymore and the excitement they provided. This was one team Jordan gave trouble to. And sure I miss some of the bigness and roughness inside. Wow.

Watch on YouTube

The knicks had a great defense,but their offense was bottom 10,something bottom 5.The Knicks had also only one HOF in their team.

I was trying to compare the different eras and what each had to go through. Jordan had to do battle with the Detroit Pistons or the Bad Boys Pistons years. They didn't shake hands after the games they lost either. Maybe they didn't shake hands even after they won. Jordan had to face these kinds of teams.

[jason bourne]

Here it is. Jordan vs the Bad Boys I think after they won two ships back-to-back (?). Check out the ending that few here were arguing about with LeBron doing.

Watch on YouTube

[twyzted]

LeBron really has Jordan fans in shambles, bringing up tape comparing a 22 year old Bron with 27 year old Jordan

Its not about the age its the fact MJ was dominant im bringing up this video to compare the Finals debut....

Yes LBJ was young but even at LBJ Peak he never looked that dominant in any finals series that i can remember

LBJ had final series loses where he looked timid and shaky...MJ never had a moment like that in the finals

Peak Bron vs GSW in 2016:

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.3 blocks, 2.6 steals, 48.6 FG%, 37.1 3PT%

Yeah pretty pedestrian....

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance.

Why did you leave out ft?
Are we forgetting this gem?
17.8 ppg 7 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 48% 20% 60%

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance

Yawn 4 titles. 1 sweep, 2 gentleman sweeps.
6 titles in 8 year is better. That is dominace.

31 ppg 7 rpg 11 apg 3 spg 1 bpg on 56% 50% 85%
41 ppg 9 rpg 6 apg 2 spg 1bpg on 51% 40% 70%

[twyzted]

Jordan played against GOAT type competition, who are the GOATs LBJ faced in their prime sans the Celtics and Spurs(who actually weren't in their prime, both teams past their actual prime).

Well besides Duncan/Manu/Parker/Pierce/Garnett/Allen ---- he has also faced and beat Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Klay/Westbrook (twice)/Harden (twice)/Butler (twice),Lillard/Melo/Jokic/PG13/Vince Carter/Billups/Sheed/Kidd/Arenas

Harden, Lillard, Carmelo, Westbrook are not GOAT type competition. I really like Durant but I will judge him once I see what he does in NY as he had 1 Finals appearence before joining GSW. Vince Carter is overrated AS ****. Butler is also a good player, proved he's top 10 in the league but lets not get overcarried again here. Jokic is just fun to watch, I dunno if I ever expect him to win it all, he might, but I dunno, his athletic ability is the one of a poker player, which kinda makes him unique. Arenas was again nothing special- great scorer and that Wizards team was decent, again nothing legendary there. Curry I like, he's very unique and I'd put him on that list. Kawhi was 23-24 when he faced LBJ, and was just making his leap.

Compare these players only to;

Thomas, Dumars, Bird, McHale, Magic, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Miller, young Shaq and Hardaway.

You forgot
Drexler, barkley, worthy, mourning

[Alize]

Again, nice cherry picking. So insecure. Tell me again how Duncan and Iverson were star players in 1997-1998

Its not about the age its the fact MJ was dominant im bringing up this video to compare the Finals debut....

Yes LBJ was young but even at LBJ Peak he never looked that dominant in any finals series that i can remember

LBJ had final series loses where he looked timid and shaky...MJ never had a moment like that in the finals

Peak Bron vs GSW in 2016:

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.3 blocks, 2.6 steals, 48.6 FG%, 37.1 3PT%

Yeah pretty pedestrian....

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance.

Why did you leave out ft?
Are we forgetting this gem?
17.8 ppg 7 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 48% 20% 60%

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance

Yawn 4 titles. 1 sweep, 2 gentleman sweeps.
6 titles in 8 year is better. That is dominace.

31 ppg 7 rpg 11 apg 3 spg 1 bpg on 56% 50% 85%
41 ppg 9 rpg 6 apg 2 spg 1bpg on 51% 40% 70%

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[Alize]

Come on twyzted, which criteria is next? 6 titles although your god Jordan didnt reach Russels 11? Scoring per game? Guess LeBron needs to chuck up 50 shots and get 63 points and still get swept in the first round. Next one.

Read on Twitter

This is next level insecurity.

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[twyzted]

Again, nice cherry picking. So insecure. Tell me again how Duncan and Iverson were star players in 1997-1998

Peak Bron vs GSW in 2016:

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.3 blocks, 2.6 steals, 48.6 FG%, 37.1 3PT%

Yeah pretty pedestrian....

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance.

Why did you leave out ft?
Are we forgetting this gem?
17.8 ppg 7 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 48% 20% 60%

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance

Yawn 4 titles. 1 sweep, 2 gentleman sweeps.
6 titles in 8 year is better. That is dominace.

31 ppg 7 rpg 11 apg 3 spg 1 bpg on 56% 50% 85%
41 ppg 9 rpg 6 apg 2 spg 1bpg on 51% 40% 70%

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

Are we still mad?

Duncan a star. Highest dws, top 10 in ws, ws/48, vorp, dpbm, 12 th in bpm.
21 ppg 12 rpg 3 apg 1 spg 3 bpg.

Jordan finals.
31 ppg 7 rpg 11 apg 3 spg 1 bpg on 56% 50% 85%
36 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg 2 spg on 53% 43% 89%
41 ppg 9 rpg 6 apg 2 spg 1bpg on 51% 40% 70%
27 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg 2spg on 42% 32% 84%
32 ppg 7 rpg 6 apg 1spg on 46% 32% 76%
34 ppg 4 rpg 2 apg 2 spg on 43% 32% 81%

No cherry picking. And just to save us all some time.
Lebron has had 2xfinals shooting under 40%
He has never avg more than 10apg in a final serie.

You also just vanished this morning after i answered your cherry picking bs?

[Alize]

Not impressive, lack of assists and rebounds. And not as efficient as Lebrons run. Next, please.

Again, nice cherry picking. So insecure. Tell me again how Duncan and Iverson were star players in 1997-1998

Why did you leave out ft?
Are we forgetting this gem?
17.8 ppg 7 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 48% 20% 60%

If we are talking dominance, dominating a decade to the tune of 9 out 10 finals appearances.... That's dominance

Yawn 4 titles. 1 sweep, 2 gentleman sweeps.
6 titles in 8 year is better. That is dominace.

31 ppg 7 rpg 11 apg 3 spg 1 bpg on 56% 50% 85%
41 ppg 9 rpg 6 apg 2 spg 1bpg on 51% 40% 70%

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

Are we still mad?

Duncan a star. Highest dws, top 10 in ws, ws/48, vorp, dpbm, 12 th in bpm.
21 ppg 12 rpg 3 apg 1 spg 3 bpg.

Jordan finals.
31 ppg 7 rpg 11 apg 3 spg 1 bpg on 56% 50% 85%
36 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg 2 spg on 53% 43% 89%
41 ppg 9 rpg 6 apg 2 spg 1bpg on 51% 40% 70%
27 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg 2spg on 42% 32% 84%
32 ppg 7 rpg 6 apg 1spg on 46% 32% 76%
34 ppg 4 rpg 2 apg 2 spg on 43% 32% 81%

No cherry picking. And just to save us all some time.
Lebron has had 2xfinals shooting under 40%
He has never avg more than 10apg in a final serie.

You also just vanished this morning after i answered your cherry picking bs?

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[ReddoverKobe]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

I think MJ is the GOAT, too. So, I was thinking when would LeBron surpass him. We are in the open floor, 3-pt era now. We had the previous 3-pt game, but too many teams just stood around and shot from outside with lousy shooters. They missed and the teams kept running up and down the court shooting and missing ad nauseum. That was mostly Jordan's 3-pt era. Now, we probably have the best long distance shooters in the world coming up. One can't just shoot the 3-ball back and forth, but we still see it happen sometime. It could be the pressure has been ratcheted up like in the playoffs.

Second argument is when did anyone win a championship in "The Bubble" which became very stressful in and of itself. The players couldn't be just motivated on by the crowds or booing in different arenas. It was good, but mostly bad.

There are other reasons his proponents give such as most playoffs games, so it's worth noting. I watched a 2-pt era great college game last night (Len Bias vs. David Robinson) and it was different, but kinda boring. Not as open as today. The 2-pt era, even with the 3-pt line It also had it's great defensive teams and inside play by big men that we don't have today. Thus, I still give Jordan the nod, but if LeBron wins another title with say another different team, then I probably have to change my mind.

Here's an example of a team that were big and rough inside which we do not have anymore and the excitement they provided. This was one team Jordan to overcome. And sure I miss some of the bigness and roughness inside. Wow.

Watch on YouTube

Look at the knicks guards, its a joke.

[Alize]

These guys would never make the league today.

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

I think MJ is the GOAT, too. So, I was thinking when would LeBron surpass him. We are in the open floor, 3-pt era now. We had the previous 3-pt game, but too many teams just stood around and shot from outside with lousy shooters. They missed and the teams kept running up and down the court shooting and missing ad nauseum. That was mostly Jordan's 3-pt era. Now, we probably have the best long distance shooters in the world coming up. One can't just shoot the 3-ball back and forth, but we still see it happen sometime. It could be the pressure has been ratcheted up like in the playoffs.

Second argument is when did anyone win a championship in "The Bubble" which became very stressful in and of itself. The players couldn't be just motivated on by the crowds or booing in different arenas. It was good, but mostly bad.

There are other reasons his proponents give such as most playoffs games, so it's worth noting. I watched a 2-pt era great college game last night (Len Bias vs. David Robinson) and it was different, but kinda boring. Not as open as today. The 2-pt era, even with the 3-pt line It also had it's great defensive teams and inside play by big men that we don't have today. Thus, I still give Jordan the nod, but if LeBron wins another title with say another different team, then I probably have to change my mind.

Here's an example of a team that were big and rough inside which we do not have anymore and the excitement they provided. This was one team Jordan to overcome. And sure I miss some of the bigness and roughness inside. Wow.

Watch on YouTube

Look at the knicks guards, its a joke.

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[twyzted]

Come on twyzted, which criteria is next? 6 titles although your god Jordan didnt reach Russels 11? Scoring per game? Guess LeBron needs to chuck up 50 shots and get 63 points and still get swept in the first round. Next one.

Read on Twitter

This is next level insecurity.

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

There has been the same critera all the time.

[LivingLegend]

Jordan played against GOAT type competition, who are the GOATs LBJ faced in their prime sans the Celtics and Spurs(who actually weren't in their prime, both teams past their actual prime).

Well besides Duncan/Manu/Parker/Pierce/Garnett/Allen ---- he has also faced and beat Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Klay/Westbrook (twice)/Harden (twice)/Butler (twice),Lillard/Melo/Jokic/PG13/Vince Carter/Billups/Sheed/Kidd/Arenas

Harden, Lillard, Carmelo, Westbrook are not GOAT type competition. I really like Durant but I will judge him once I see what he does in NY as he had 1 Finals appearence before joining GSW. Vince Carter is overrated AS ****. Butler is also a good player, proved he's top 10 in the league but lets not get overcarried again here. Jokic is just fun to watch, I dunno if I ever expect him to win it all, he might, but I dunno, his athletic ability is the one of a poker player, which kinda makes him unique. Arenas was again nothing special- great scorer and that Wizards team was decent, again nothing legendary there. Curry I like, he's very unique and I'd put him on that list. Kawhi was 23-24 when he faced LBJ, and was just making his leap.

Compare these players only to;

Thomas, Dumars, Bird, McHale, Magic, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Miller, young Shaq and Hardaway.

I mean I could easilly pick apart half the guys you mentioned on Jordans side. Fact is Harden and Westbrook are both MVPs with a combined 17 all star appearances.