Official NBA General Discussion 2019-20 V2.0

[bballsparkin]

To me LeBron will never be the GOAT because of his constant whining and complaining to the refs. I've seen refs change their decisions based off this. JVG even jokes about it. MJ was the assassin. But he did have the right circumstances. He came into the league when Bird and Magic were aging and had success after the Pistons decline. It's also silly comparing eras. If I had to pick a GOAT it's Kareem. They had to change the rules because he was so dominant. He was the original TD. Solid till the day he retired.

[fbalmeida]

Is it a team award or individual?... he was never surrounded by the talent that Jordan and lebron was....

Some of Wilt's statistics are absolutely freakish but it would be laughably false to state that his post-season failures were due to playing for bad teams. Wilt played with Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Happy Hairston, and Gail Goodrich.

At one point, Wilt lost a finals to the Knicks playing on a Lakers team that featured four +20 ppg scorers.

He simply had weaknesses that became exploitable over a seven game series.

Jordan had no such weaknesses.

Why are we comparing eras like when wilt played and when Michael played were even remotely the same?

I'm not comparing eras. I'm comparing Jordan's dominance in his era, to Lebron's dominance in his era. Jordan's dominance in his own era, was greater than that of anyone else's in the history of the game.

[Son Goku 25]

To me LeBron will never be the GOAT because of his constant whining and complaining to the refs. I've seen refs change their decisions based off this. JVG even jokes about it. MJ was the assassin. But he did have the right circumstances. He came into the league when Bird and Magic were aging and had success after the Pistons decline. It's also silly comparing eras. If I had to pick a GOAT it's Kareem. They had to change the rules because he was so dominant. He was the original TD. Solid till the day he retired.

Can't disagree with this take

[LikeABosh]

Lebrons a better defender than Jordan bro.

I can't ask you to watch the games and notice how Jordan would seem to swallow players whole, but I can ask you to look at their defensive stats and accolades.

The defensive accolades that paint Kobe as a defensive stopper? Years after he stopped playing defense too, lol. And Jordan got DPOY, cool. Lebron got 2nd twice.

And Jordan can swallow players whole cause nobodies coming for a screen. Besides Durant, no player ever attacks Lebron 1v1. And Durant might be the single greatest scoring weapon in the history of the league

Yeah, there needs to be a better argument than defensive accolades. Is Giannis a better defensive anchor than Tim Duncan as of this year?

[fbalmeida]

Assessing Giannis and Duncan's defence is about as relevant to assessing Jordan's and Lebron's as assessing if penguins are currently more endangered as a species than polar bears.

[ash_k]

Spoiler:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30070633/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-why-goat-debate-different-now

MJ fans can continue holding onto that sliver of an argument ("6-0!"), but that position is only to become increasingly tenuous as the years go on and LeBron continues to amass records, accomplishments, and titles. He is the greatest to ever play the game and soon it will be irrefutable.

Actually LeBroners like to pretend that it is the only argument. Your belief in LeBron can be described as admirable

Finals MVP: 6 vs 4
Regular season MVP: 5 vs4
DPOY: 1 and 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team vs 0 and 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team(even Giannis was able to do a MVP and DPOY in the same season)
10×NBA scoring champion vs 1xNBA scoring champion (so the future NBA leading scorer would have won the scoring champ only once?!)
Against 60-win teams in the playoffs: GOAT (7-2) vs LeBron (3-4) GOAT has never played with offensive talents like Wade, Kyrie and AD.
PER : 27.91 vs 27.49

Difficult to act like we have not seen him get swept twice in the finals.Difficult to forget that it was 1-8 in his last 9 NBA Finals game prior to this season: Outdueled by KD in clutch time and outdueled by Kawhi for MVP. Iggy got the MVP for his impact on him. Both Dirk and Terry outdueled him in crunchtime. It is not close, but one cannot live without hope

Spoiler:

I'd argue that some of those stats you've brought up are pretty selective. I'd say it's pretty undeniable that Lebron deserved the Finals MVP in 2015 - he played a much better series than Igoudala.

Regular season MVP is a tough one because both deserved it more than they got (Voters got tired of MJ & Lebron winning). I'd argue that being known as the best player in the league is more important than winning the MVP, which I'd imagine is either pretty close or in Lebron's favour.

NBA scoring champion - for some reason you bring up the difference in points per game - judging a player by PPG is probably the worst way to purely judge a player. I mean, have you ever brought that up in an argument for anyone else? For some reason you're ignoring Lebron's FG% and 3pt% being higher, as well as his rebounds and assists.

MJ never played with offensive talents like Wade, Kyrie, AD. But he did play with Pippen in his Prime, who was a better all around player than Wade (while Lebron was on the Heat) and a much better all-around player than Kyrie. Pippen is a top 30 all-time player! And those Bulls teams weren't as top heavy as Lebron's championship teams, but they were amazing teams.

PER is close enough.

For some reason people compare their finals records, but not their playoff records - which are almost identical. Is it somehow better to lose in the first round than in the finals?

How many championships did MJ win without a top 5 all-time coach?

I'd also argue that MJ never had to play against a team as good as the Curry-Durant-Thompson etc Warriors. That team was one of the most stacked ever.

Of course, after all that arguing, I actually do think that MJ is the greatest of all-time. He was so dominant on both sides of the ball, and the 6-0 finals record is really incredible. MJ never had to leave the Bulls and start a "super team," and I do genuinely believe he could have become a better 3pt shooter if he was in today's NBA and needed to. He also doesn't have the black mark on his career like the finals vs. the Mavs.

I do think it's worth a conversation though, and if Lebron was to win two more championships he'd probably get my vote. But that's really difficult! It's probably unlikely Lebron stays at this level long enough to win two more where he's still a top guy.

At least, we agree on "who the GOAT is" but with a different level of conviction.
To address some of your points:

The hardest thing to do in the NBA is to score ( MJ would average 40 points easily with the spreadedout offenses with no bigman/bigmen waiting for you and would average more assists with the 3pt shooters) - a GOAT must have won multiple 'scoring champion'. Even AI has 4 of them. AI would average 40 points in today's game.
I dont know how anybody can be a GOAT without having won a DPOY(but again, that's just me!)

Had I seen GOAT get outdueled by Drexler or anyone else in those moments, then my opinion would be different. Things would be "closer".

You can't be outplayed/outdueled by KD, Kawhi and Iggy to the MVP and then be called the GOAT.
You can't be swept while shooting below .400 and then be called the GOAT
You can't be beaten as the number 1 seed in the East twice and then be called the GOAT

That Warriors team was about to be eliminated by Houston then CP3 got injured. It is not like that team won 75 games. they were not exactly unbeatable. KD outdueled LeBron in the clutch and we can't erase that.

Had GOAT played with offensive talent like Wade, Kyrie or AD(to beat Detroit), he would have had at least one more ring.
GOAT just needed to someone to score about 20 next to him to keep teams "honest" to become "unbeatable" (he was getting triple- teamed).

LeBron will never be GOAT but his greatness will never be doubted. By the way how do you lose 2 games against a team that started Herro and Duncan Robinson (injured BAM, injured Dragic)while you have AD on your team.

[Psubs]

At least, we agree on "who the GOAT is" but with a different level of conviction.
To address some of your points:

The hardest thing to do in the NBA is to score ( MJ would average 40 points easily with the spreadedout offenses with no bigman/bigmen waiting for you and would average more assists with the 3pt shooters) - a GOAT must have won multiple 'scoring champion'. Even AI has 4 of them. AI would average 40 points in today's game.
I dont know how anybody can be a GOAT without having won a DPOY(but again, that's just me!)

Had I seen GOAT get outdueled by Drexler or anyone else in those moments, then my opinion would be different. Things would be "closer".

You can't be outplayed/outdueled by KD, Kawhi and Iggy to the MVP and then be called the GOAT.
You can't be swept while shooting below .400 and then be called the GOAT
You can't be beaten as the number 1 seed in the East twice and then be called the GOAT

That Warriors team was about to be eliminated by Houston then CP3 got injured. It is not like that team won 75 games. they were not exactly unbeatable. KD outdueled LeBron in the clutch and we can't erase that.

Had GOAT played with offensive talent like Wade, Kyrie or AD(to beat Detroit), he would have had at least one more ring.
GOAT just needed to someone to score about 20 next to him to keep teams "honest" to become "unbeatable" (he was getting triple- teamed).

LeBron will never be GOAT but his greatness will never be doubted. By the way how do you lose 2 games against a team that started Herro and Duncan Robinson (injured BAM, injured Dragic)while you have AD on your team.

I had a thought. If some insane thing happens like Lebron wins the next 5 championships, he will be the GOAT. Lebron's earlier appearances would be better than MJ's early career when he was beatable.

[fbalmeida]

Their careers were shaped differently. Came into the league at different ages.
Statistically Jordan was vastly superior early on, as a scorer.
On balance early Lebron's Cavs were better teams than early Jordan's Bulls.

[gerrit4]

At least, we agree on "who the GOAT is" but with a different level of conviction.
To address some of your points:

The hardest thing to do in the NBA is to score ( MJ would average 40 points easily with the spreadedout offenses with no bigman/bigmen waiting for you and would average more assists with the 3pt shooters) - a GOAT must have won multiple 'scoring champion'. Even AI has 4 of them. AI would average 40 points in today's game.
I dont know how anybody can be a GOAT without having won a DPOY(but again, that's just me!)

Had I seen GOAT get outdueled by Drexler or anyone else in those moments, then my opinion would be different. Things would be "closer".

You can't be outplayed/outdueled by KD, Kawhi and Iggy to the MVP and then be called the GOAT.
You can't be swept while shooting below .400 and then be called the GOAT
You can't be beaten as the number 1 seed in the East twice and then be called the GOAT

That Warriors team was about to be eliminated by Houston then CP3 got injured. It is not like that team won 75 games. they were not exactly unbeatable. KD outdueled LeBron in the clutch and we can't erase that.

Had GOAT played with offensive talent like Wade, Kyrie or AD(to beat Detroit), he would have had at least one more ring.
GOAT just needed to someone to score about 20 next to him to keep teams "honest" to become "unbeatable" (he was getting triple- teamed).

LeBron will never be GOAT but his greatness will never be doubted. By the way how do you lose 2 games against a team that started Herro and Duncan Robinson (injured BAM, injured Dragic)while you have AD on your team.

Fair enough on most of those. I don't think its fair to speculate on what players "would have done" as there's really no proof that AI could have averaged 40ppg (personally I don't think he would, considering its never been done in the modern NBA), or that MJ would had Kyrie, Wade or AD against Detroit (irrelevant because Lebron didn't have those guys in the first 7 years of his career either - that's like saying Lebron would have beat Boston/Orlando if prime Scottie Pippen was on his team).

Also, Lebron was not outplayed by Iguodala or Kawhi in the finals. Here's the statistical comparisons:

2014:
Kawhi: 18ppg/6/2 with .753 TS
Lebron: 28/8/4/2 on .679 TS

2015
Lebron: 36ppg, 13RPG, 8.8 APG, (on pretty bad efficiency at .477)
Iggy: 16ppg. 5RPG, 4 APG with TS .588.

The only reason Iggy & Kawhi got the Finals MVP was because their teams won, and they kept Lebron from completely dominating. But at no point in those series were they more valuable than Lebron. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that GSW or SA would have been better teams with Lebron instead of those guys.

I'm not sure if Jordan ever played anyone as good as Durant in his prime.


But again, you're being selective in your criteria.

No GOAT can ever average less than 6 APG in their career.
No GOAT can ever lose a first round series.
No GOAT can average less than 7RPG in their career.
No GOAT can ever waste two years of their prime playing the wrong sport.
No GOAT can ever retire three times.

[ash_k]

Spoiler:

At least, we agree on "who the GOAT is" but with a different level of conviction.
To address some of your points:

The hardest thing to do in the NBA is to score ( MJ would average 40 points easily with the spreadedout offenses with no bigman/bigmen waiting for you and would average more assists with the 3pt shooters) - a GOAT must have won multiple 'scoring champion'. Even AI has 4 of them. AI would average 40 points in today's game.
I dont know how anybody can be a GOAT without having won a DPOY(but again, that's just me!)

Had I seen GOAT get outdueled by Drexler or anyone else in those moments, then my opinion would be different. Things would be "closer".

You can't be outplayed/outdueled by KD, Kawhi and Iggy to the MVP and then be called the GOAT.
You can't be swept while shooting below .400 and then be called the GOAT
You can't be beaten as the number 1 seed in the East twice and then be called the GOAT

That Warriors team was about to be eliminated by Houston then CP3 got injured. It is not like that team won 75 games. they were not exactly unbeatable. KD outdueled LeBron in the clutch and we can't erase that.

Had GOAT played with offensive talent like Wade, Kyrie or AD(to beat Detroit), he would have had at least one more ring.
GOAT just needed to someone to score about 20 next to him to keep teams "honest" to become "unbeatable" (he was getting triple- teamed).

LeBron will never be GOAT but his greatness will never be doubted. By the way how do you lose 2 games against a team that started Herro and Duncan Robinson (injured BAM, injured Dragic)while you have AD on your team.

Spoiler:

Fair enough on most of those. I don't think its fair to speculate on what players "would have done" as there's really no proof that AI could have averaged 40ppg (personally I don't think he would, considering its never been done in the modern NBA), or that MJ would had Kyrie, Wade or AD against Detroit (irrelevant because Lebron didn't have those guys in the first 7 years of his career either - that's like saying Lebron would have beat Boston/Orlando if prime Scottie Pippen was on his team).

Also, Lebron was not outplayed by Iguodala or Kawhi in the finals. Here's the statistical comparisons:

2014:
Kawhi: 18ppg/6/2 with .753 TS
Lebron: 28/8/4/2 on .679 TS

2015
Lebron: 36ppg, 13RPG, 8.8 APG, (on pretty bad efficiency at .477)
Iggy: 16ppg. 5RPG, 4 APG with TS .588.

The only reason Iggy & Kawhi got the Finals MVP was because their teams won, and they kept Lebron from completely dominating. But at no point in those series were they more valuable than Lebron. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that GSW or SA would have been better teams with Lebron instead of those guys.

I'm not sure if Jordan ever played anyone as good as Durant in his prime.


But again, you're being selective in your criteria.

No GOAT can ever average less than 6 APG in their career.
No GOAT can ever lose a first round series.
No GOAT can average less than 7RPG in their career.
No GOAT can ever waste two years of their prime playing the wrong sport.
No GOAT can ever retire three times.

FYI: ESPN the Jump had an analysis on the year AI averaged ~31 and deduced that he would have averaged~38 in today's game. GOAT averaged over 30 in his career 8 times!

It is relevant to say ("would have done"), because LeBron lost finals with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love at their absolute peak/prime age!. GOAT was losing ECF with Pippen nowhere near the Scottie that most people got to know.

Let's not repeat " the hardest thing to do in the NBA(scoring)": At that level, it is certainly not passing nor rebounding and plus one should expect a 6'8 260 players with the ball in his hands 95% to average more rebounds and assists than most.

LeBron is always going to have great numbers because again he always has the ball. But KD, Kawhi and Iggy clearly outdueled him to the MVP. We can't rewrite history here: Rewatch the series when Iggy was inserted into the starting 5 down 1-2.

There are not 50 criteria. Regular season MVP, finals MVP, DPOY, Scoring Champion, your performance during clutch at the highest level (the matchups) are the most important, record against the best teams...please feel free to add first rd performances in your criteria.

There is used to be a time when MJ was 1a and Drexler 1b until they met in the finals like you probably already know!

[treerollins]

Can't believe you guys are on here debating Jordan vs James.

They're both defined by the era that they played in. If LeBron plays 2-3 years of college and enters the league at the same time as Jordan, without the modern era training/nutrition/sports medicine/etc and they face the same teams and defences then I'll take Jordan.

If it's Jordan playing in the LeBron era then what does that look like? In terms of stats they'd be close. Would modern era Jordan be that different than what we saw from Kobe? Or how about Kawhi? They all demonstrated an ability to be unstoppable at times and will their teams to victories. Seems like a pointless debate to me but I don't think you could paint Jordan as such a clear choice if he played in this era.

[beanbag]

LBJ is the greatest of all time in my opinion, but of course, this is a very subjective debate and I don't blame you if you disagree. He can still be the best player in the league next season, in year 18, absolute madness

Based on what though? he has not won a regular season MVP in almost 10 years. Giannis has been the most dominant player in the last couple of years and has yet to play with any player like Kyrie Irving or Anthony Davis. At the same age(35), GOAT was both regular season and NBA Finals MVP.

can you imagine Shaq and Kobe lose 2 games against a team made of Duncan Robinson, Tyler Herro, Crowder, injured Dragic, injured Bam and Jimmy Butler. Let's be realistic.
1. GOAT 27.91
2. LeBron 27.49
3. AD 27.42
4. Shaq 26.43
26. Kobe 22.9

Lebron can't be the greatest when he's never even won a slam dunk contest.

(You can't see it, but the font here is a lovely emerald green)

[dauv78]

The way I look at it is as follows;

both players are generational players, arguably top 2 all time

besides the championships, mvp's and accolades what really makes the difference for me is ATTITUDE, what I mean is, JORDAN wanted more than anything else to beat the best not team up with them. Now obviously JORDAN played with great players on great Bulls teams there is no denying that but with James orchestrating his departure from Cleveland to MIami creating the the superteam era, this is what really seperates the two for me.

Would JORDAN have acted differently had the bulls not put a great team around JORDAN, not sure, but JORDAN doesn't seem to be the type of person to run and hide from a challenge but rather than rise up to the challenge.

just my 2 cents

[ash_k]

LBJ is the greatest of all time in my opinion, but of course, this is a very subjective debate and I don't blame you if you disagree. He can still be the best player in the league next season, in year 18, absolute madness

Based on what though? he has not won a regular season MVP in almost 10 years. Giannis has been the most dominant player in the last couple of years and has yet to play with any player like Kyrie Irving or Anthony Davis. At the same age(35), GOAT was both regular season and NBA Finals MVP.

can you imagine Shaq and Kobe lose 2 games against a team made of Duncan Robinson, Tyler Herro, Crowder, injured Dragic, injured Bam and Jimmy Butler. Let's be realistic.
1. GOAT 27.91
2. LeBron 27.49
3. AD 27.42
4. Shaq 26.43
26. Kobe 22.9

Lebron can't be the greatest when he's never even won a slam dunk contest.

(You can't see it, but the font here is a lovely emerald green)

You are not over that one yet but again like Doug Collins said in "the last dance"- I coached him for 3 years
when I was coaching him "he was the MVP of the league, MVP of all star game, won the Slam Dunk contest and the DPOY. That's greatness!

Anyway, glad to see you typing about basketball more instead of you trying to be that studio social justice person with Covidtesting:
~"NBA players can get tested whenever they want, but the bus driver and Store Clerk can't" like the world just started being unfair in March 2020 . Cheers, mate!

[beanbag]

Based on what though? he has not won a regular season MVP in almost 10 years. Giannis has been the most dominant player in the last couple of years and has yet to play with any player like Kyrie Irving or Anthony Davis. At the same age(35), GOAT was both regular season and NBA Finals MVP.

can you imagine Shaq and Kobe lose 2 games against a team made of Duncan Robinson, Tyler Herro, Crowder, injured Dragic, injured Bam and Jimmy Butler. Let's be realistic.
1. GOAT 27.91
2. LeBron 27.49
3. AD 27.42
4. Shaq 26.43
26. Kobe 22.9

Lebron can't be the greatest when he's never even won a slam dunk contest.

(You can't see it, but the font here is a lovely emerald green)

You are not over that one yet but again like Doug Collins said in "the last dance"- I coached him for 3 years
when I was coaching him "he was the MVP of the league, MVP of all star game, won the Slam Dunk contest and the DPOY. That's greatness!

Anyway, glad to see you typing about basketball more instead of you trying to be that studio social justice person with Covidtesting:
~"NBA players can get tested whenever they want, but the bus driver and Store Clerk can't" like the world just started being unfair in March 2020 . Cheers, mate!

I like your choices of font size.

[Oakville_Raptor]

How can LeBron be considered a GOAT when he whines about EVERY single call that doesn't go his way...LeBron worshippers are so weird.

[fbalmeida]

There's a reason you call somebody 'the Jordan of' to recognize greatness in a specific line of work.

If you were born by, say, 1982 the absolute latest, you don't need any explanation as to why. You would've witnessed it.

[fbalmeida]

In an era dominated by bigs and low-scoring defensive drudgery, Jordan managed to conquer 3 scoring titles on a 34.9 ppg average over a three year span, before he even developed a reliable 3pt jump-shot at the age of 26, while playing for a terrible team.

At the same age, Lebron wasn't even the best player on his own team during that year's post-season.

[Kingsway_fan]

To me LeBron will never be the GOAT because of his constant whining and complaining to the refs. I've seen refs change their decisions based off this. JVG even jokes about it. MJ was the assassin. But he did have the right circumstances. He came into the league when Bird and Magic were aging and had success after the Pistons decline. It's also silly comparing eras. If I had to pick a GOAT it's Kareem. They had to change the rules because he was so dominant. He was the original TD. Solid till the day he retired.

Can't disagree with this take

Wilt and his 70+ still unbroken NBA records says hi....

[ash_k]

In an era dominated by bigs and low-scoring defensive drudgery, Jordan managed to conquer 3 scoring titles on a 34.9 ppg average over a three year span, before he even developed a reliable 3pt jump-shot at the age of 26, while playing for a terrible team.

At the same age, Lebron wasn't even the best player on his own team during that year's post-season.

you have made the case throughout.
some other things that people have missed:

LeBron lost against Greece in FIBA
LeBron lost against Puerto Rico, Lituania, Argentina in the Olympics ....is that a GOAT?!

GOAT 16-0 in the Olympics