The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 8)

[JulesWinnfield]

Man, those 48 hours of hysteria after game 5 were something else. Not even gonna lie, I could barely sleep after that game . The thought of Lebron blowing a 3-1 lead kept hitting me like a ton of bricks.

There's something about Lebron that triggers the biggest overreactions. The haters were out in full force and many of us stans were in full doom and gloom mode. In retrospect, all of it was silly.

You know why man. It all circles back to 2011. Well forever have PTSD from it and the haters will always think he's only one meltdown away. No one's come to grips with the fact that he's a completely different person now and that you may as well completely erase that series from the memory books when trying to forecast current Lebron.

Zach Lowe always talks about how Jordan just felt inevitable. Like you never entertained the idea of him losing. LeBron kinda lost that luster for good 10 years ago, but I'm kinda glad because the uncertainty is what makes the victories that much sweeter.

Beyond that, essentially people gravitate toward Jordan because they want to believe in perfection.

Something I appreciate about LeBron's run - doesn't make it "better", just appreciate it - is that everyone has to grapple with the stumbles he had because it happened on the grand stage.

LeBron's perceived "dominance" is what dominance actually is. There are chinks in the armor, because they always are.

When we talk about Jordan's "dominance", we're supposed to talk about Jordan's 60 point game against the Celtics without talking about the fact that his team got swept, we're supposed to talk about the Dream Team without pointing out that everyone on the team was hyper-efficient except for Jordan who was shooting more than he should have because he wanted to be "The Man" while everyone else was there for the team, we're supposed to talk about his baseball years as if he have won the NBA championship had he simply been playing, we're supposed to talk about the Last Dance as if Jordan was going to win titles forever if only Krause wasn't a villain, and we're supposed to pretend Jordan's time in Washington just never happened.

People don't want Jordan's incredible success put into context so we can understand his limitations were and why he was dramatically more successful at sometimes compared to others. They want a hero, and Jordan wants to be that hero, so the spin continues.

None of this means LeBron > Jordan, but the people who side with Jordan because of this false notion of perfection are a real problem. The Jordan narrative literally makes people, including the players who grew up in his shadow, dumber about basketball.

With the crazy spectrum and hyper intense scrutiny with which everyone views Lebron, I highly doubt if the roles were reversed and Lebron was the one who left to play another sport, failed, and then came back and lost in the postseason with a couple of embarrassing close outs to close games in the series (the nick anderson game and game 6) that he would get the total and complete pass that Jordan gets. I’m not even saying Jordan doesn’t deserve a pass, I’m just saying Lebron wouldn’t get it. The whole “baseball legs” stuff would get a hell of a lot more scrutiny

[Heej]

Never really bought the baseball disadvantage. Many studies have proven that it's better for long term injury prevention for athletes to play multiple sports. Taking those years off to do baseball definitely extended his prime lol, and he tried to sneak back in to win a chip at full health in 95 while the rest of the league was banged up going into the playoffs.

[JulesWinnfield]

He put up good numbers against the Magic in 95 but he had a couple of thoroughly embarrassing finishes to close games in that series. It was there for the winning. The Nick Anderson steal early in the series, and then the close out game that the Bulls led by like 10 with like 3 minutes left at home and totally folded, MJ even threw up an airball late in that one in addition to a couple other bricks, as the announcers just made excuse after excuse for him for being tired and not in basketball shape

Again I’m not saying Jordan doesn’t kind of deserve a pass after taking off a year and a half and then trying to come back late in the season for a playoff run. But I’m absolutely positive Lebron would not be afforded the same leeway. That series is literally treated as if it never happened

[Dupp]

Never really bought the baseball disadvantage. Many studies have proven that it's better for long term injury prevention for athletes to play multiple sports. Taking those years off to do baseball definitely extended his prime lol, and he tried to sneak back in to win a chip at full health in 95 while the rest of the league was banged up going into the playoffs.

Easier sport and probably a huge mental break.

[KTM_2813]

Man, those 48 hours of hysteria after game 5 were something else. Not even gonna lie, I could barely sleep after that game . The thought of Lebron blowing a 3-1 lead kept hitting me like a ton of bricks.

There's something about Lebron that triggers the biggest overreactions. The haters were out in full force and many of us stans were in full doom and gloom mode. In retrospect, all of it was silly.

You know why man. It all circles back to 2011. Well forever have PTSD from it and the haters will always think he's only one meltdown away. No one's come to grips with the fact that he's a completely different person now and that you may as well completely erase that series from the memory books when trying to forecast current Lebron.

Zach Lowe always talks about how Jordan just felt inevitable. Like you never entertained the idea of him losing. LeBron kinda lost that luster for good 10 years ago, but I'm kinda glad because the uncertainty is what makes the victories that much sweeter.

Beyond that, essentially people gravitate toward Jordan because they want to believe in perfection.

Something I appreciate about LeBron's run - doesn't make it "better", just appreciate it - is that everyone has to grapple with the stumbles he had because it happened on the grand stage.

LeBron's perceived "dominance" is what dominance actually is. There are chinks in the armor, because they always are.

When we talk about Jordan's "dominance", we're supposed to talk about Jordan's 60 point game against the Celtics without talking about the fact that his team got swept, we're supposed to talk about the Dream Team without pointing out that everyone on the team was hyper-efficient except for Jordan who was shooting more than he should have because he wanted to be "The Man" while everyone else was there for the team, we're supposed to talk about his baseball years as if he have won the NBA championship had he simply been playing, we're supposed to talk about the Last Dance as if Jordan was going to win titles forever if only Krause wasn't a villain, and we're supposed to pretend Jordan's time in Washington just never happened.

People don't want Jordan's incredible success put into context so we can understand his limitations were and why he was dramatically more successful at sometimes compared to others. They want a hero, and Jordan wants to be that hero, so the spin continues.

None of this means LeBron > Jordan, but the people who side with Jordan because of this false notion of perfection are a real problem. The Jordan narrative literally makes people, including the players who grew up in his shadow, dumber about basketball.

Great post.

[Sedale Threatt]

Not to gloat but I deserve some credit for being one of the cooler heads when a bunch of y'all were overreacting after every loss or a bad game.

Anyway, 4MVPs and 4 titles. Gonna be a good night to browse reddit and GB

I'm right there with ya Paulie. Some of us have to remain calm in the middle of the Homer38 and nzahir's storms of the world

Man, those 48 hours of hysteria after game 5 were something else. Not even gonna lie, I could barely sleep after that game . The thought of Lebron blowing a 3-1 lead kept hitting me like a ton of bricks.

There's something about Lebron that triggers the biggest overreactions. The haters were out in full force and many of us stans were in full doom and gloom mode. In retrospect, all of it was silly.

Same. It was double-edged. As a Lakers fan, it would have been a complete nightmare regardless. But as somebody who has also been a huge fan of LeBron's game, it would have been a giant dose of salt in the wound to have to listen to all the crap that would have inevitably followed. Ultimate nightmare scenario. I have a heart condition (atrial fibrillation; Larry Bird has it too) that actually kicked in during the first few minutes of Game 6 because I was so amped up/nervous. That run to end the 2nd quarter was the best possible outcome, and even then I wasn't totally relaxed until we got down to the last 4-5 minutes of the game.

It's easy to say now, but I don't think the nerves were silly at all. Hindsight is 20/20. But if you've watched enough sports, you know that absolutely anything can happen, even 3-1 comebacks in The Finals.

[Ainosterhaspie]

His defensive resurgence this playoffs bolsters my view that his waming defensive effectiveness in 2017, 18 was primarily a conscious decision on his part not to expend effort in a largely futile endeavor. Those teams weren't going to have quality defense no matter what he did. Just did not have rim protection or wing quality to be effective. Good offenses could simply work around him and exploit the other weaker defenders.

He gets criticized, but it was probably the right decision. Invest where the payoff is biggest rather than throwing away resources where there's no return. Once he had solid and elite defensive talent to work with, he ramped up his effort and effectiveness again.

Well there's truth in this, but I think the most noteworthy thing about LeBron's defense this year is the way he set the tone for defensive focus at the start of the season. That's not something he did the past half decade and it had its consequences.

The question during the last Cleveland stint is mostly about whether Kyrie made that impossible. There's no debate though:

LeBron chose to blow off defense in both '17-18 and '18-19 on rosters full of guys who'd have worked hard if LeBron had worked hard.

Not saying that was a mistake, but it's the truth.

I think the issue was no rim protection. That put a limit on what could be done with those teams on defense. Lue didn't help either as I dont think he had any particularly useful ideas on that end. It's one thing to work hard on the perimeter knowing that if you get beat, there's a deterrent backing you up. When TT (who lost his hunger after the finals and was undersized for a rim protector anyway) and Love are all you got as backup, stops are hard to come by.

Now he has Davis and Howard roaming back there and it makes all the difference. It's something that's been missing since he left Cleveland the first time. (Birdman and Mosgov were brief helps there). He had to fill that role from 2011-16 for his defenses to succeed. I don't think he had the energy reserves to do that anymore after 2016.

[dreamshake]

His defensive resurgence this playoffs bolsters my view that his waming defensive effectiveness in 2017, 18 was primarily a conscious decision on his part not to expend effort in a largely futile endeavor. Those teams weren't going to have quality defense no matter what he did. Just did not have rim protection or wing quality to be effective. Good offenses could simply work around him and exploit the other weaker defenders.

He gets criticized, but it was probably the right decision. Invest where the payoff is biggest rather than throwing away resources where there's no return. Once he had solid and elite defensive talent to work with, he ramped up his effort and effectiveness again.

Well there's truth in this, but I think the most noteworthy thing about LeBron's defense this year is the way he set the tone for defensive focus at the start of the season. That's not something he did the past half decade and it had its consequences.

The question during the last Cleveland stint is mostly about whether Kyrie made that impossible. There's no debate though:

LeBron chose to blow off defense in both '17-18 and '18-19 on rosters full of guys who'd have worked hard if LeBron had worked hard.

Not saying that was a mistake, but it's the truth.

It's possible AD may deserve some credit for this as well. We saw some stories about AD getting onto Bron about missing rotations, etc. in training camp and early in the season. It's not like Kyrie or Love were in a position where they were able (or cared enough) to criticize LeBron on defense. I think it's entirely possible LeBron rose to the challenge when a guy that was legitimately his equal/superior on that end of the floor called him out on it.

[dreamshake]

we're supposed to talk about his baseball years as if he have won the NBA championship had he simply been playing

It's interesting to imagine a parallel situation where LeBron took off '14 & '15 to try and play in the NFL or something. Imagine your only data points were LeBron beat the Spurs in '13 and the Warriors in '16. Would anyone ever believe that he wouldn't have won those 2 titles in between against the same 2 teams he already beat? Everyone would assume he'd have won 5 straight titles. Among all the MJ mythology the "he would've won 8 in a row" is one of the most off-base IMO. There's a reason nobody has won more than 3 in a row in the modern era - it's damn near impossible.

[Down3223]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=ESPN

[Doctor MJ]

His defensive resurgence this playoffs bolsters my view that his waming defensive effectiveness in 2017, 18 was primarily a conscious decision on his part not to expend effort in a largely futile endeavor. Those teams weren't going to have quality defense no matter what he did. Just did not have rim protection or wing quality to be effective. Good offenses could simply work around him and exploit the other weaker defenders.

He gets criticized, but it was probably the right decision. Invest where the payoff is biggest rather than throwing away resources where there's no return. Once he had solid and elite defensive talent to work with, he ramped up his effort and effectiveness again.

Well there's truth in this, but I think the most noteworthy thing about LeBron's defense this year is the way he set the tone for defensive focus at the start of the season. That's not something he did the past half decade and it had its consequences.

The question during the last Cleveland stint is mostly about whether Kyrie made that impossible. There's no debate though:

LeBron chose to blow off defense in both '17-18 and '18-19 on rosters full of guys who'd have worked hard if LeBron had worked hard.

Not saying that was a mistake, but it's the truth.

It's possible AD may deserve some credit for this as well. We saw some stories about AD getting onto Bron about missing rotations, etc. in training camp and early in the season. It's not like Kyrie or Love were in a position where they were able (or cared enough) to criticize LeBron on defense. I think it's entirely possible LeBron rose to the challenge when a guy that was legitimately his equal/superior on that end of the floor called him out on it.

Indeed.

I'll also say that there's unique power in being a First Follower. As in, the person who isn't trying to convince everyone else of his own way, but is respect and a vocal supporter of someone else's vision.

I'll also say that there's a benefit that comes to the mentor from an eager, talented protege. LeBron clearly craved that with Kyrie and didn't get it. Kyrie will never understand the opportunity he missed, but to be frank I always felt that LeBron should have realized what Kyrie was while he was still in Miami. That marriage was destined for divorce.

While Kyrie what you had was a secondary talent with a primary ego, in AD we've got a primary talent with a secondary ego. It's a freaking dream come true for LeBron and I think he's actually being a better person and teammate because of it.

Now, the truth is that the mentor is still the more valuable person in that relationship so I don't want to blow AD's value-as-protege out of proportion, but it's a real thing that has contributed to the best vibe I've seen from the Lakers since Magic.

[GSP]

We're 8-1 against Embiid in the playoffs........And they took an alltime fleecing from Ainge with the trading down Fultz/Tatum situation. Why would that affect my views on him

No Boston fan is worried about Embiid I can tell you that. Ben Simmons is the far more dangerous matchup for us specially being arguably the best Tatum defender in the Nba

We exposed his overrated defense and inability to guard the perimeter or pick and roll all series. For as much flack as Rudy gets defensively hes better than Embiid at almost every aspect of defense. Rudys playoff defense gets trashed for getting torched by Steph, Kd or Harden pick and rolls. Joel was getting abused by Kemba

Offensively Joel is the better low post scorer/foul drawer but hes not good enough against strong bulky/wide post defenders for it to be that valuable. Gets routinely shut down by the Marcs, Horfords, Baynes, Gobert etc. Even Jokic can stonewall him in the post Horrible passer specially against doubles, plays soft and shoots alot of midrange jumpers. We had Smart and sometimes even Kemba switched on him at points in the series and hed take a stepback fade from 15ft

Rudy has an offensive game that i think is much more scalable. Much better screener, better roller/rim gravity, better on offensive glass, much more active, better conditioned, #1 in screen assists for many seasons now etc. Hes not a very good offensive player or anything but neither is Joel and Rudys offensive traits has been important for their system for years now

C'mon man. He's a way better and more resilient scorer than Rudy Gobert lol. He's given the Celtics buckets in every playoff series. I don't think either guy is actually all that great a defender if you wanna win a championship tbh. Kemba is a very good guard vs drop coverage, and very much on par with the better guards in the league in only than one aspect. He'd fry Gobert too. It's just that he's somewhat worthless vs an athletic rangy playoff team with bigs like Bam.

I know you guys crap on Philly but I think you're letting your matchups color your opinion of him. And as a Boston fan you'll always have a subconscious bias against certain franchises, it's natural. Im a New Yorker and I hate every Boston team lol. Low key I'm a Brady stan tho after that Falcons Superbowl.

Not to mention that the Celtics didn't stop Embiid from anything this year. When the team is a poor fit and they're missing their second-best/most important player, it's much easier to limit ONE player.

We have one of the worst big rotations in the league. Bam did anything he wanted against us too except Bam was great defensively against us too while Joel was garbage on that end

Embiid had a -21.2 on court rating for the series and -32.9 on/off by far the worst of the series.

[D.Brasco]

Assuming '21 LeBron is at about 90% of what he was last season, what would be the main obstacles to prevent the Lakers from repeating?

I feel the Lakers in the coming season should be looking stronger than the Heat were coming into 2013 when they repeated.

[Heej]

Assuming '21 LeBron is at about 90% of what he was last season, what would be the main obstacles to prevent the Lakers from repeating?

I feel the Lakers in the coming season should be looking stronger than the Heat were coming into 2013 when they repeated.

The Denver Nuggets

[JulesWinnfield]

Assuming '21 LeBron is at about 90% of what he was last season, what would be the main obstacles to prevent the Lakers from repeating?

I feel the Lakers in the coming season should be looking stronger than the Heat were coming into 2013 when they repeated.

Other than the obvious (injury to Lebron or AD, either a major one or a minor one at an inopportune time) the main weaknesses I still see as 3 point shooting and wing defense. The right 3 and D player could sure up a lot of that with one acquisition. I thought LA would beat either Boston or Miami, but I was terrified at what Boston’s wings could potentially do to LA if they were on, as well as the energy they could force Lebron to spend defensively

[Sedale Threatt]

Assuming '21 LeBron is at about 90% of what he was last season, what would be the main obstacles to prevent the Lakers from repeating?

I feel the Lakers in the coming season should be looking stronger than the Heat were coming into 2013 when they repeated.

Supporting cast is still pretty gnarly. Lots of veterans, solid defenders, made some timely shots, Rondo stepped up enormously in the playoffs. But you look at those regular season BPMs and it's a blood bath. Even two consistent C-plus / B-minus players would be significant upgrade.

[RCM88x]

Assuming '21 LeBron is at about 90% of what he was last season, what would be the main obstacles to prevent the Lakers from repeating?

I feel the Lakers in the coming season should be looking stronger than the Heat were coming into 2013 when they repeated.

The Heat added Ray Allen which really added another dimension to their offense. I feel like the Lakers would need to make a similar improvement to their roster and probably a little more.

[JulesWinnfield]

How do you guys see Lebrons 2020 Lakers doing in a hypothetical 4 team tourney between his 4 title teams? Let’s assume playoff form so you bake into the cake any health situations that popped up. I think the mere presence of Anthony Davis would absolutely give them a massive edge against Miami who struggled to defend far lesser skilled bigs with their absence of a true 5 (although Davis isn’t technically a 5) or any bulk inside. A potential matchup with the 16 Cavs would be more interesting in my view. I think the 2020 Lakers would beat either Heat team and Davis would win MVP of the series

[PistolPeteJR]

C'mon man. He's a way better and more resilient scorer than Rudy Gobert lol. He's given the Celtics buckets in every playoff series. I don't think either guy is actually all that great a defender if you wanna win a championship tbh. Kemba is a very good guard vs drop coverage, and very much on par with the better guards in the league in only than one aspect. He'd fry Gobert too. It's just that he's somewhat worthless vs an athletic rangy playoff team with bigs like Bam.

I know you guys crap on Philly but I think you're letting your matchups color your opinion of him. And as a Boston fan you'll always have a subconscious bias against certain franchises, it's natural. Im a New Yorker and I hate every Boston team lol. Low key I'm a Brady stan tho after that Falcons Superbowl.

Not to mention that the Celtics didn't stop Embiid from anything this year. When the team is a poor fit and they're missing their second-best/most important player, it's much easier to limit ONE player.

We have one of the worst big rotations in the league. Bam did anything he wanted against us too except Bam was great defensively against us too while Joel was garbage on that end

Embiid had a -21.2 on court rating for the series and -32.9 on/off by far the worst of the series.

Is Bam’s scoring load = Embiid’s?

[D.Brasco]

Assuming '21 LeBron is at about 90% of what he was last season, what would be the main obstacles to prevent the Lakers from repeating?

I feel the Lakers in the coming season should be looking stronger than the Heat were coming into 2013 when they repeated.

The Heat added Ray Allen which really added another dimension to their offense. I feel like the Lakers would need to make a similar improvement to their roster and probably a little more.

In today's game a Ray Allen type player even at his age on the Heat would be something even more valuable than in 2013.

I'm hoping LeGm is in full force this off-season.