Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

[Stillwater]

Windler can definitely be a rotation player but I dont see starter unless he is knocking down shots from all over the floor not just from deep.
I dont think his presence will change their needs because he is not a high level defender which is what they need most on the wing and in the paint...Okongwu or Vassell are top targets if they keep pick imo
also saw that Sextons work ethic shows big time after gaining 15lbs during the lockout and that Garland is finally in shape whatever that means.

Thanks for not slamming me on the Windler sarcasm. I do hope he becomes a rotation player. Just trying to bring some conversation on the subject. If what you say about Sexton is real, I am looking forward to seeing him this upcoming season. From what I have read and heard he is a truly committed gym rat. I hope it rubs off on Garland, I know I have been a bit hard on Garland, he seems like a good guy but he really looks like he needs to bulk up from a defensive standpoint. Hopefully he has a better idea of what being an NBA player is all about, is healthy and shows why an NBA team drafted him #5.

I'd like to actually see Windler play ball before deciding what he can or can't be. I'd also point out he's only a year younger than Cedi, and if Cedi is ever going to break out and become something more than what we've seen ... it could happen.

Some news is getting out about our mini-bubble. Collin has reportedly added a lot of muscle and some weight, KPJ has also bulked up, and Garland has reportedly slimmed down. Too bad Darius hasn't completely transformed his body over the Summer, he'll likely still get pushed around easily, but at least he has a shot to start this season in basketball shape.

So, with the team interested in making the playoffs and with JBB in control, our new pick/picks? may actually have to compete and earn his minutes regardless of the position on the floor we draft. Or maybe we trade it for a player we can plug-in to the starting lineup.

And of course, in this day and age, I want players who can shoot and help space the floor. So, I'd personally have no problem starting Windler at SF or SG if he was shooting the 3pter significantly better than our other candidates. A rookie is unlikely to fix our defensive problems - more likely add to them - but JBB does have the option to break up our backcourt if he feels it's unworkable.

We'll see how things shake out, but if the Cavs are really interested in winning rather than throwing minutes at prospects; a lot more possibilities than we've seen could be on the table for both JBB and Altman.

Do I even need to bother to add?

For better or worse ...

he wasnt a one and done there is a ton of tape on him
if anything his playmaking ability would be the most needed asset in a starting line up
I could see KPJ Sexton and Windler line up being effective offensively

[JonFromVA]

Thanks for not slamming me on the Windler sarcasm. I do hope he becomes a rotation player. Just trying to bring some conversation on the subject. If what you say about Sexton is real, I am looking forward to seeing him this upcoming season. From what I have read and heard he is a truly committed gym rat. I hope it rubs off on Garland, I know I have been a bit hard on Garland, he seems like a good guy but he really looks like he needs to bulk up from a defensive standpoint. Hopefully he has a better idea of what being an NBA player is all about, is healthy and shows why an NBA team drafted him #5.

I'd like to actually see Windler play ball before deciding what he can or can't be. I'd also point out he's only a year younger than Cedi, and if Cedi is ever going to break out and become something more than what we've seen ... it could happen.

Some news is getting out about our mini-bubble. Collin has reportedly added a lot of muscle and some weight, KPJ has also bulked up, and Garland has reportedly slimmed down. Too bad Darius hasn't completely transformed his body over the Summer, he'll likely still get pushed around easily, but at least he has a shot to start this season in basketball shape.

So, with the team interested in making the playoffs and with JBB in control, our new pick/picks? may actually have to compete and earn his minutes regardless of the position on the floor we draft. Or maybe we trade it for a player we can plug-in to the starting lineup.

And of course, in this day and age, I want players who can shoot and help space the floor. So, I'd personally have no problem starting Windler at SF or SG if he was shooting the 3pter significantly better than our other candidates. A rookie is unlikely to fix our defensive problems - more likely add to them - but JBB does have the option to break up our backcourt if he feels it's unworkable.

We'll see how things shake out, but if the Cavs are really interested in winning rather than throwing minutes at prospects; a lot more possibilities than we've seen could be on the table for both JBB and Altman.

Do I even need to bother to add?

For better or worse ...

he wasnt a one and done there is a ton of tape on him
if anything his playmaking ability would be the most needed asset in a starting line up
I could see KPJ Sexton and Windler line up being effective offensively

Playing for Belmont against less experienced players at small schools he looked great ... still means nothing until he shows he can do those things against NBA players.

I'm optimistic but just sucks he lost the entire season.

[Stillwater]

I'd like to actually see Windler play ball before deciding what he can or can't be. I'd also point out he's only a year younger than Cedi, and if Cedi is ever going to break out and become something more than what we've seen ... it could happen.

Some news is getting out about our mini-bubble. Collin has reportedly added a lot of muscle and some weight, KPJ has also bulked up, and Garland has reportedly slimmed down. Too bad Darius hasn't completely transformed his body over the Summer, he'll likely still get pushed around easily, but at least he has a shot to start this season in basketball shape.

So, with the team interested in making the playoffs and with JBB in control, our new pick/picks? may actually have to compete and earn his minutes regardless of the position on the floor we draft. Or maybe we trade it for a player we can plug-in to the starting lineup.

And of course, in this day and age, I want players who can shoot and help space the floor. So, I'd personally have no problem starting Windler at SF or SG if he was shooting the 3pter significantly better than our other candidates. A rookie is unlikely to fix our defensive problems - more likely add to them - but JBB does have the option to break up our backcourt if he feels it's unworkable.

We'll see how things shake out, but if the Cavs are really interested in winning rather than throwing minutes at prospects; a lot more possibilities than we've seen could be on the table for both JBB and Altman.

Do I even need to bother to add?

For better or worse ...

he wasnt a one and done there is a ton of tape on him
if anything his playmaking ability would be the most needed asset in a starting line up
I could see KPJ Sexton and Windler line up being effective offensively

Playing for Belmont against less experienced players at small schools he looked great ... still means nothing until he shows he can do those things against NBA players.

I'm optimistic but just sucks he lost the entire season.

Shooter with elite bbiq ball movement within offense high level cutter and underrated athlete
None of those things need to be proven imo to transfer. He isnt undersized nor does he have a small sample size to draw a baseline like dg did.
I guess Windler might be a better defender than it seemed in college but if you dont stand out as dominant defensively at that level theres a pretty good chance you wont in the nba either

[JonFromVA]

he wasnt a one and done there is a ton of tape on him
if anything his playmaking ability would be the most needed asset in a starting line up
I could see KPJ Sexton and Windler line up being effective offensively

Playing for Belmont against less experienced players at small schools he looked great ... still means nothing until he shows he can do those things against NBA players.

I'm optimistic but just sucks he lost the entire season.

Shooter with elite bbiq ball movement within offense high level cutter and underrated athlete
None of those things need to be proven imo to transfer. He isnt undersized nor does he have a small sample size to draw a baseline like dg did.
I guess Windler might be a better defender than it seemed in college but if you dont stand out as dominant defensively at that level theres a pretty good chance you wont in the nba either

Lots of upperclassmen that beat up the NCAA failed to do much in the NBA. The level of competition can't be ignored.

[Stillwater]

Playing for Belmont against less experienced players at small schools he looked great ... still means nothing until he shows he can do those things against NBA players.

I'm optimistic but just sucks he lost the entire season.

Shooter with elite bbiq ball movement within offense high level cutter and underrated athlete
None of those things need to be proven imo to transfer. He isnt undersized nor does he have a small sample size to draw a baseline like dg did.
I guess Windler might be a better defender than it seemed in college but if you dont stand out as dominant defensively at that level theres a pretty good chance you wont in the nba either

Lots of upperclassmen that beat up the NCAA failed to do much in the NBA. The level of competition can't be ignored.

Which is why he doesn't project as a starter but very well could be if he was a better defender much of which is why so many offensive only prospects are rotation players on good teams.
Either way i dont see him being much less effective in the pros unless hes lost some speed or got worse instead of better as a off ball mover

[JonFromVA]

Shooter with elite bbiq ball movement within offense high level cutter and underrated athlete
None of those things need to be proven imo to transfer. He isnt undersized nor does he have a small sample size to draw a baseline like dg did.
I guess Windler might be a better defender than it seemed in college but if you dont stand out as dominant defensively at that level theres a pretty good chance you wont in the nba either

Lots of upperclassmen that beat up the NCAA failed to do much in the NBA. The level of competition can't be ignored.

Which is why he doesn't project as a starter but very well could be if he was a better defender much of which is why so many offensive only prospects are rotation players on good teams.
Either way i dont see him being much less effective in the pros unless hes lost some speed or got worse instead of better as a off ball mover

Windler isn't an offensive only prospect ... but what if pros are able to stick with him and he can't get open?

That doesn't necessarily mean he lost speed, on average the pros are faster/quicker/taller/stronger and more experienced than what Belmont or any college kid faced.

If you've judged him accurately purely by what he's done at a weaker level of competition ... congrats?

[Stillwater]

Lots of upperclassmen that beat up the NCAA failed to do much in the NBA. The level of competition can't be ignored.

Which is why he doesn't project as a starter but very well could be if he was a better defender much of which is why so many offensive only prospects are rotation players on good teams.
Either way i dont see him being much less effective in the pros unless hes lost some speed or got worse instead of better as a off ball mover

Windler isn't an offensive only prospect ... but what if pros are able to stick with him and he can't get open?

That doesn't necessarily mean he lost speed, on average the pros are faster/quicker/taller/stronger and more experienced than what Belmont or any college kid faced.

If you've judged him accurately purely by what he's done at a weaker level of competition ... congrats?

I guess you cant see the speed and athleticism with what you have watched of him ? I dont need to see any prospect play for 3+ years against meh competition to know if he can transfer his skills to the next level.
Lets not confuse the fact that many of the kids get paid and stop working , so unless thats him suddenly which is the opposite of all reports on his character then the fact is there is a damn good chance his skills that were dominant in college will at minimum be good esp against 2nd units and his defense will be ok at best since it was only good even after 3 years + of solid minutes to scout.

[JonFromVA]

Which is why he doesn't project as a starter but very well could be if he was a better defender much of which is why so many offensive only prospects are rotation players on good teams.
Either way i dont see him being much less effective in the pros unless hes lost some speed or got worse instead of better as a off ball mover

Windler isn't an offensive only prospect ... but what if pros are able to stick with him and he can't get open?

That doesn't necessarily mean he lost speed, on average the pros are faster/quicker/taller/stronger and more experienced than what Belmont or any college kid faced.

If you've judged him accurately purely by what he's done at a weaker level of competition ... congrats?

I guess you cant see the speed and athleticism with what you have watched of him ? I dont need to see any prospect play for 3+ years against meh competition to know if he can transfer his skills to the next level.
Lets not confuse the fact that many of the kids get paid and stop working , so unless thats him suddenly which is the opposite of all reports on his character then the fact is there is a damn good chance his skills that were dominant in college will at minimum be good esp against 2nd units and his defense will be ok at best since it was only good even after 3 years + of solid minutes to scout.

I like what I see from Windler but I've seen far more athletic and accomplished college ballers not cut it against NBA competition.

otoh, I also won't conclude he can't start until he shows us he can't.

[Stillwater]

Windler isn't an offensive only prospect ... but what if pros are able to stick with him and he can't get open?

That doesn't necessarily mean he lost speed, on average the pros are faster/quicker/taller/stronger and more experienced than what Belmont or any college kid faced.

If you've judged him accurately purely by what he's done at a weaker level of competition ... congrats?

I guess you cant see the speed and athleticism with what you have watched of him ? I dont need to see any prospect play for 3+ years against meh competition to know if he can transfer his skills to the next level.
Lets not confuse the fact that many of the kids get paid and stop working , so unless thats him suddenly which is the opposite of all reports on his character then the fact is there is a damn good chance his skills that were dominant in college will at minimum be good esp against 2nd units and his defense will be ok at best since it was only good even after 3 years + of solid minutes to scout.

I like what I see from Windler but I've seen far more athletic and accomplished college ballers not cut it against NBA competition.

otoh, I also won't conclude he can't start until he shows us he can't.

oh he can start on this team... but should he ? I doubt it unless Garland is benched for Exum in the rotation which seems pretty unlikely esp if he is playing better than year 1

[JonFromVA]

I guess you cant see the speed and athleticism with what you have watched of him ? I dont need to see any prospect play for 3+ years against meh competition to know if he can transfer his skills to the next level.
Lets not confuse the fact that many of the kids get paid and stop working , so unless thats him suddenly which is the opposite of all reports on his character then the fact is there is a damn good chance his skills that were dominant in college will at minimum be good esp against 2nd units and his defense will be ok at best since it was only good even after 3 years + of solid minutes to scout.

I like what I see from Windler but I've seen far more athletic and accomplished college ballers not cut it against NBA competition.

otoh, I also won't conclude he can't start until he shows us he can't.

oh he can start on this team... but should he ? I doubt it unless Garland is benched for Exum in the rotation which seems pretty unlikely esp if he is playing better than year 1

Spreading the floor so we can get the most out of our offense is more important to me then trying to shore up our defense ... but no clue what JBB and Koby are thinking.

With Drummond at C we should have four 3pt shooters on the floor. Just makes floor spacing so much easier, and makes the most of what Love still brings.

[Stillwater]

I like what I see from Windler but I've seen far more athletic and accomplished college ballers not cut it against NBA competition.

otoh, I also won't conclude he can't start until he shows us he can't.

oh he can start on this team... but should he ? I doubt it unless Garland is benched for Exum in the rotation which seems pretty unlikely esp if he is playing better than year 1

Spreading the floor so we can get the most out of our offense is more important to me then trying to shore up our defense ... but no clue what JBB and Koby are thinking.

With Drummond at C we should have four 3pt shooters on the floor. Just makes floor spacing so much easier, and makes the most of what Love still brings.

Love is not part of the long term plan ,so maybe Windler can replace some of his scoring long term. Dre isn't long for the team beyond this season or the deadline more likely so I doubt it would matter either but in the interim sure the more shooters the better since nobody can defend anyway ,hell maybe all 5 should be and they can just outscore everyone... The reality is it doesnt work in the win column not at the price of fruitless basket trading because none of them are getting stops. at least not when so called developing young pieces are being placed in the starting line up and not even creating offense

[JonFromVA]

oh he can start on this team... but should he ? I doubt it unless Garland is benched for Exum in the rotation which seems pretty unlikely esp if he is playing better than year 1

Spreading the floor so we can get the most out of our offense is more important to me then trying to shore up our defense ... but no clue what JBB and Koby are thinking.

With Drummond at C we should have four 3pt shooters on the floor. Just makes floor spacing so much easier, and makes the most of what Love still brings.

Love is not part of the long term plan ,so maybe Windler can replace some of his scoring long term. Dre isn't long for the team beyond this season or the deadline more likely so I doubt it would matter either but in the interim sure the more shooters the better since nobody can defend anyway ,hell maybe all 5 should be and they can just outscore everyone... The reality is it doesnt work in the win column not at the price of fruitless basket trading because none of them are getting stops. at least not when so called developing young pieces are being placed in the starting line up and not even creating offense

We may have terrible defense, but we do have excellent rebounders, and simply improving our defense to one of the worst in the league .vs. All-Time Worst would make it quite possible for a spread offense to win games. We would need to become a lot better at creating shots - which would at least be something viable with a spread floor.

My goal here is to start improving, not win a championship next season and thinking about it - trying to cover up for other player's crappy defense may be bad for the team in the short-term because it has the potential to just re-enforce their bad habits.

A sad fact of NBA life is that when players feel good on offense, they play harder on defense.

That being said, I certainly don't oppose the idea of drafting a C or PF. I'd just prefer they can shoot. Bam Adebayo will certainly be raising the value of Okongwu, but sometimes you draft that guy and you get the next Bismack Biyombo instead.

[Stillwater]

Spreading the floor so we can get the most out of our offense is more important to me then trying to shore up our defense ... but no clue what JBB and Koby are thinking.

With Drummond at C we should have four 3pt shooters on the floor. Just makes floor spacing so much easier, and makes the most of what Love still brings.

Love is not part of the long term plan ,so maybe Windler can replace some of his scoring long term. Dre isn't long for the team beyond this season or the deadline more likely so I doubt it would matter either but in the interim sure the more shooters the better since nobody can defend anyway ,hell maybe all 5 should be and they can just outscore everyone... The reality is it doesnt work in the win column not at the price of fruitless basket trading because none of them are getting stops. at least not when so called developing young pieces are being placed in the starting line up and not even creating offense

We may have terrible defense, but we do have excellent rebounders, and simply improving our defense to one of the worst in the league .vs. All-Time Worst would make it quite possible for a spread offense to win games. We would need to become a lot better at creating shots - which would at least be something viable with a spread floor.

My goal here is to start improving, not win a championship next season and thinking about it - trying to cover up for other player's crappy defense may be bad for the team in the short-term because it has the potential to just re-enforce their bad habits.

A sad fact of NBA life is that when players feel good on offense, they play harder on defense.

That being said, I certainly don't oppose the idea of drafting a C or PF. I'd just prefer they can shoot. Bam Adebayo will certainly be raising the value of Okongwu, but sometimes you draft that guy and you get the next Bismack Biyombo instead.

I agreed with most of your comments except the Biyombo one given he was the equivalent of a prospect similar to idk if there is one at the center position in this class so I guess maybe Okoro from the standpoint of expected athletic transferable defense as the floor that sells the lottery worthy pick with blind hope in offensive improvement but a very low floor given the shooting is bad for a wing. Okongwu is actually a pretty efficient offensive player even though he isnt going to be taking many 3s anytime soon, his mid range jumper is documented if somebody can actually keep him out of the paint in the NBA which nobody could do in college.
idk but if they go high efficient or high skill offense and basic at best defensive skill the prospect better be a lot better than Garland and Sexton at creating offense if its a 1 guard

[Stillwater]

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_draft_prospects_can_start_making_team_visits_on_friday/s1_14822_33075953?utm_source=msn%2Ecom&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rl_msn&utm_content=rl_msn_33076241
In a typical year, teams will bring in dozens of prospects, usually 4-8 at a time.
Not this time.

[gflem]

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_draft_prospects_can_start_making_team_visits_on_friday/s1_14822_33075953?utm_source=msn%2Ecom&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rl_msn&utm_content=rl_msn_33076241
In a typical year, teams will bring in dozens of prospects, usually 4-8 at a time.
Not this time.

Thats a lot of restrictions. It will be telling which teams bring in which players in regard to who they are interested in. Personally, I think it is too restrictive if what is written is true.

[Stillwater]

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_draft_prospects_can_start_making_team_visits_on_friday/s1_14822_33075953?utm_source=msn%2Ecom&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rl_msn&utm_content=rl_msn_33076241
In a typical year, teams will bring in dozens of prospects, usually 4-8 at a time.
Not this time.

Thats a lot of restrictions. It will be telling which teams bring in which players in regard to who they are interested in. Personally, I think it is too restrictive if what is written is true.

its already a problem imo because it wont be like Altman can just run out to LA to see a Garland workout either. Maybe there is a loophole but unlikely. At least the Cavs will get somebody who wants to play for the Cavs since they are likely ltd to in person workouts of those with said interest showing up at the cavs bubble site 10 is a really low number too imo

[JonFromVA]

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_draft_prospects_can_start_making_team_visits_on_friday/s1_14822_33075953?utm_source=msn%2Ecom&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rl_msn&utm_content=rl_msn_33076241
In a typical year, teams will bring in dozens of prospects, usually 4-8 at a time.
Not this time.

Thats a lot of restrictions. It will be telling which teams bring in which players in regard to who they are interested in. Personally, I think it is too restrictive if what is written is true.

its already a problem imo because it wont be like Altman can just run out to LA to see a Garland workout either. Maybe there is a loophole but unlikely. At least the Cavs will get somebody who wants to play for the Cavs since they are likely ltd to in person workouts of those with said interest showing up at the cavs bubble site 10 is a really low number too imo

Too bad we don't have a second pick. Some players will be hesitant to visit us because we don't have another pick (yet); but the restrictions may increase the chances of a player sliding in the draft because he didn't get the chance to workout with other teams.

What the NBA could do is require teams to share interviews, work-out tape, and any medical data with other teams. It might even encourage teams to think outside the box and not just repeat the same drills and questions the previous team did. There's also no medical reason to restrict video phone interviews.

[Stillwater]

Thats a lot of restrictions. It will be telling which teams bring in which players in regard to who they are interested in. Personally, I think it is too restrictive if what is written is true.

its already a problem imo because it wont be like Altman can just run out to LA to see a Garland workout either. Maybe there is a loophole but unlikely. At least the Cavs will get somebody who wants to play for the Cavs since they are likely ltd to in person workouts of those with said interest showing up at the cavs bubble site 10 is a really low number too imo

Too bad we don't have a second pick. Some players will be hesitant to visit us because we don't have another pick (yet); but the restrictions may increase the chances of a player sliding in the draft because he didn't get the chance to workout with other teams.

What the NBA could do is require teams to share interviews, work-out tape, and any medical data with other teams. It might even encourage teams to think outside the box and not just repeat the same drills and questions the previous team did. There's also no medical reason to restrict video phone interviews.

I havent seen any penalty ramifications or fines for breaking protocol si im a little optimistic they can get into a workout in chi or cha but if all they can do is bring in 10 total prospects most will be ones they are really curious about but lack film on and a couple they think might slide in the process that they could get later

[KJStark23]

Watch on YouTube

[JonFromVA]

Watch on YouTube

So..
- ditch Love draft Toppin (or Wiseman if available)
- thinks Toppin would be a popular pick because he played at Dayton
- failing that, draft Deni
- or consider trading down, and snagging a role player (ex: Nesmith, Haliburton)
- Would not draft another little guy, but would not consider anyone a keeper
- need BBIQ (not LeMelo Ball)
- do not need shotmakers
- like Deni over Okoro because they think he'd help Sexton/Garland more via BBIQ .vs. defensively
- Deni more of a playmaker than Cedi, but Cedi is a more likely comparison for him than say Luka
- Did not mention Okongwu or Vassell

So, they're kind of all over the map. They criticized the Cavs' team construction, but they don't seem to have a clear vision for it either.

Personally, I'd still emphasize shooting, because my vision for the team is to cash in on the power of having 4 or 5 guys on the floor that can knock down 3's combined with 2 or more guys who can create shots.

A lot of teams still come up short trying to replicate this. They tend to get locked in to certain players that just can't shoot very well, and the result is that opponents can cheat a defender off the non-shooter and make whatever offensive action you're trying to run much harder.

The Cavs if nothing else could avoid this mistake, and then Collin, Darius, Kevin, etc, won't end up having to try to score at the rim through a forest of trees.