2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[MGB8]

Why are we arguing about Cam Reddish? We did that last year. Is there a rumor about him being shopped or something?

As someone else said, if the Hawks are willing to trade Reddish for the 4th pick, that should be a hint that he's not worth the 4th pick.

Reddish is a good lesson for the arm chair evaluators on this board.

But I agree with the bolded.

It was a hypo someone put out- no actual rumors or anything.

The reason for the discussion is that folks responded with ridiculous evaluations and declarations in response to the hypo. Calling Reddish unathletic and with a bad handle - a guy who was limited to being a 3 & D prospect. Except that those assertions aren't even close to being accurate. Reddish is a very good (though not Vince Carter / Shawn Marion, etc.) type athlete whose ball handling ability is one of his strengths - sometimes to his detriment (gets to "finesse-y").

That does bear on how you evaluate prospects, generally.

The issue with Reddish was (and remains) strength (in particular core strength), shot consistency (not sure what the issue there is, may also be related to core strength), and sort of aggression / mentality / basketball personality (a critical issue - if Tony Snell had a different mindset he'd be an above-average starter-caliber NBA wing... but he is who he is; if Eddy Curry had a different mindset he could have been a top 10 NBA player during his time... but he is who he is). Reddish may still end up a bust. He may end up just a rotation player. Or he may end up a star or even super star - the skills are there, the physical gifts are there, it's just a "can he put it together" situation. ((*side note on athleticism - I went back and looked at early Paul George highlights (were "violent athleticism" would be most evident) and didn't see anything that would really separate George's level of athleticism from Reddish's. Hence why folks (not just myself) have compared them. ))

You don't look at what a player *is* in college (or other pre-NBA leagues). You look at what they *can be* and how likely it is, based off of the information you have (to include frame, work ethic, coachability/ motivation to improve themselves, love of game, "mamba mentality," bball IQ questions, etc.) that they'll reach various levels of their potential and/or flame-out/bust.

[MrSparkle]

Yikes. He doesn’t have anything in common with LaVine. LaVine was downright bad at playing the game of basketball. He literally couldn’t do anything except dunk. Edwards is just unpolished but he’s shown some skills. LaVine showed nothing, you were basically hoping he’d become at best a Gerald Green.

LaVines improvements have been unprecedented, Kobe Bryant-esque. Edwards is a worlds-better prospect than LaVine at the same age

Ok, I don't know about Kobe-esque... But right you are, LaVine was a very raw prospect drafted for his athleticism and raw skills, and has largely panned out incredibly well for a 13th pick with an ACL tear. But IMO I'm still not sure why LaVine slipped so far - who in their right mind ever takes McDermott or Stauskas over a hyper-athletic prospect with flashes of skills? He could dribble in college; he wasn't a stiff.

But agreed, Edwards is a world's better prospect. It's a matter of him hitting the right environment; I think Donovan can make a primo starter out of him. But like current LaVine, I'd be concerned about IQ, shot selection and ball movement. Pairing them might not work. That's not a reason to skip him if he happens to drop.

The Bryant comparison isn’t too far off. Both were drafted at 13, both extremely raw shooting guards with elite athleticism (LaVine obviously with beyond-elite athleticism, perhaps the best that the NBA has ever seen), both viewed as high ceiling/high bust potential project players that probably wouldn’t pan out, but perhaps could. Bryant’s first two years in the NBA sucked, and by the beginning of his 3rd year, he was viewed as a lost cause

The difference is that LaVine was drafted by one of the most a**-backwards, most toxic franchises in professional athletics, then subsequently traded to another mega-toxic environment, this time being forced to play under two of the worst coaches in contemporary NBA history. He also tore his ACL

Bryant got to play under Phil f***g Jackson, and for a team that wound up acquiring freaking Shaq

The Kobe comparison is not only far-off, it is grounds for imprisonment.

Dude - Kobe’s HS resume was ridiculous. He was born with a basketball in his mouth, played 5 positions, averaged a triple-double out the womb, was scrimmaging with the Sixers as a teenager, was a hyper-intelligent student on top of it all, and went straight to the pros without college at a time where it was not at all normal to draft HS prospects in the top-10. He went to prom with Brady; he was already a celebrity-lite. And part of the reason he went lower in the draft was cause he was determined to go LA.

Not to take away from Zach. He also had a pro sports dad and a good HS career, but it was no where near the same.

[PlayerUp]

I just don't get the Deni love.

He doesn't do anything at a high level, and he's a subpar shooter.

Why are we fawning over this guy at #4?

Every pick in this draft has flaws. No prospect does anything at a high level other than the couple of playmakers and solid defenders in this draft. The ones that have less flaws have lower ceilings. It's not a good draft.

[MGB8]

Devin Vassell is the guy I want for us. Reminds me of Jimmy.

Yikes, really? I don’t see what he’s got in common with Butler. He’s much more similar to Paul George at the same age, or Leonard a few years later. He’s *far* more athletic than Jimmy & he is a 3&D guy, something Butler has never been

I don't see those comps, either. His handle, while not bad, isn't nearly as advanced as George's was coming in, and he doesn't have nearly as good a first step, also has a somewhat thinner frame. I'm also not sure that he has an alpha-scorer's mentality. Leonard was much thicker / stronger (and not the shooter).

At the same time, Vassell is sneaky athletic, can score from all 3 levels, has some ball handling ability, is a very strong wing defender already, shows a really high basketball IQ, and has near ideal size/length for a wing. His absolute upside could be Jayson Tatum like - similar frames, similar college production per 40 (though comparing soph to frosh) with the exception of FTA rate and total volume scoring - where the FT rate difference explains the distinction. But a 3&D player a la Tayshaun Prince is a much more likely outcome.

The biggest question marks on Vassell as a prospect, IMO, are (1) his low FT% and (2) his low FTA rate. I want to know why a guy who shoots well from distance is shooting under 80% from the stripe (74% this season, 68% as a rook despite shooting well from 3 on low volume that year - Tatum, to compare, was an 85% FT shooter). And while I see Vassell take it inside quite a bit, is overall usage the biggest cause of the FTA rate difference between him and Tatum? And is that caused by Vassell not being willing or maybe able to increase his role, or more short term "needs to fill out frame" issues?

[KJStark23]

Watch on YouTube

[CjayC]

I just don't get the Deni love.

He doesn't do anything at a high level, and he's a subpar shooter.

Why are we fawning over this guy at #4?

Not a clue.

In 3 years everyone will have revisionist history and say "Wow, it was so obvious. A slowfooted wing that can't shoot, who was crazy enough to take this guy in the top 10?" Hopefully that answer isn't the Bulls.

IDK I don't think he's that bad if you're talking about pure straight line running and jumping, but the change of direction and first step won't catch anyone off guard.

He has to make significant strides as a ballhandler and shooter to get the most out of his playmaking, I just don't see that kind of leap happening. I think he can be a weapon in the fullcourt, but as is now I don't see his halfcourt projecting as well unless he makes some big developmental leaps.

[PlayerUp]

Both Hayes and Deni both could easily be busts. They both have major flaws in their game and none of us should be sold on either of them. In fact it would not surprise me if picks 1-7 are all busts and the picks 8-20 turn out to be decent picks.

Onyeka Okongwu, Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell are the safest picks in my opinion. Think all 3 can be quality NBA starters and I doubt anyone would argue otherwise.

Kira Lewis is the gem prospect in my opinion but I think the mocks are wrong and he'll go in the lottery. Poku could be the poor mans version of Giannis of this draft. There are also other potential gem prospects such as Tyrell Terry.

Overall trading down makes sense but surely every team in the lottery will be looking to do the same thing which makes it seem less likely we can pull off a trade moving down in this draft.

[Ccwatercraft]

Had a chance to watch vassell highlights and read his scouting report. I came away thinking good things.

[Ccwatercraft]

Hutch had a low ceiling.

Really? I always thought Hutch had an impressive handle for a guy with his size and athleticism. It’s too bad he’s been injured so much, was hoping he would be a diamond in the rough.

That's because Gar/Pax fed you that BS. Bulls hopefully soon to be retired scout Bollwinkel was involved in the Hutchinson decision and he has a past history of missing on every pick. Had we not taken him at #22, he likely would have slipped to the 2nd Rd. Nothing was really impressive about him other than his volume scoring in a weak conference.

Reality is you could pull someone out of the G League, give him Hutch minutes and he'd do a better job. Add the fact that Hutch can't even stay healthy really no reason to keep this guy around much longer.

The good news is that he only will cost 2.4 and we have an option if he steps up. I'd like to see some healthy hutch, but he gets used as filler that's fine.

We could waive him if we wanted to open up a roster slot right? I dont think there's any other option.

[PlayerUp]

I have absolutely no one as my clear #1 we should take at #4 right now and nobody here I'm sure is confident in their pick choice they want at #4 as well.

We have to hope that during private predraft workouts happening soon a couple of these prospects who most have literally not played now in 7+ months will standout.

List of Prospects Who Have Potential To Rise Into Early Lottery

Could Go #1
James Wiseman (We saw so little of Wiseman)
LaMelo Ball (Shot Improvement/Defense could make him the clear #1 pick)

Could Rise Into Top 4
Isaac Okoro (Shot Improvement, Offensive Skillset)
Onyeka Okongwu (Shot Improvement, Offensive Skillset)
Deni Avdija (Shot Improvement/Strength)

Could Rise Into Top 8
Cole Anthony (Shot Improvement, Overall Improvement)
Patrick Williams (Overall Improvement All Around)
Tyrell Terry (Overall Improvement, Defense)
Kira Lewis (Continued improvements, defense, shot)

You could add a couple others to this list as well.

[PlayerUp]

Kira Lewis Jr Last 9 Games

23.2 PPG
6.7 APG
3.7 RPG
49% FG
46.3% 3PT

He's younger than Deni.
Fastest player in the draft
He could wind up the best scorer out of this draft.

Watch on YouTube

;t=373s

[PlayerUp]

Lonzo Ball
#13 Pick
#39 + #42 Picks

FOR

Tomas Satoransky
#4 Pick

Seen this suggestion by a couple. I added the 2nd Rd Picks as fillers.

Before people say no thanks to Lonzo ultimately the decision would come down to Billy Donovan and if he think he can completely turn around his career which I have doubts he can.

[cjbulls]

Lonzo Ball
#13 Pick
#39 + #42 Picks

FOR

Tomas Satoransky
#4 Pick

Seen this suggestion by a couple. I added the 2nd Rd Picks as fillers.

Before people say no thanks to Lonzo ultimately the decision would come down to Billy Donovan and if he think he can completely turn around his career which I have doubts he can.

Are your last two posts related? Why would hey trade down to acquire Lonzo as their pg of the future and then draft Lewis?

[Mbrahv0528]

Lonzo Ball
#13 Pick
#39 + #42 Picks

FOR

Tomas Satoransky
#4 Pick

Seen this suggestion by a couple. I added the 2nd Rd Picks as fillers.

Before people say no thanks to Lonzo ultimately the decision would come down to Billy Donovan and if he think he can completely turn around his career which I have doubts he can.

This would never happen. I'm sure if we can see Lonzo isn't a franchise player, Billy can too .

Sent from my SM-F707U using RealGM mobile app

[Andi Obst]

He's younger than Deni and LaMelo despite being a Sophomore.

Not that it is changing anything really, because the difference between all 3 players you mentioned is insignificant, but that's not true. LaMelo is younger.

[Andi Obst]

I like Vassell a lot, but I don't think he'll be my favorite at 4. Falls in the "would be okay with the pick, wouldn't love it though"-category for me. To be fair, there are quite a few guys in that group (including Deni).

[PhilLeotardo]

Ok, I don't know about Kobe-esque... But right you are, LaVine was a very raw prospect drafted for his athleticism and raw skills, and has largely panned out incredibly well for a 13th pick with an ACL tear. But IMO I'm still not sure why LaVine slipped so far - who in their right mind ever takes McDermott or Stauskas over a hyper-athletic prospect with flashes of skills? He could dribble in college; he wasn't a stiff.

But agreed, Edwards is a world's better prospect. It's a matter of him hitting the right environment; I think Donovan can make a primo starter out of him. But like current LaVine, I'd be concerned about IQ, shot selection and ball movement. Pairing them might not work. That's not a reason to skip him if he happens to drop.

The Bryant comparison isn’t too far off. Both were drafted at 13, both extremely raw shooting guards with elite athleticism (LaVine obviously with beyond-elite athleticism, perhaps the best that the NBA has ever seen), both viewed as high ceiling/high bust potential project players that probably wouldn’t pan out, but perhaps could. Bryant’s first two years in the NBA sucked, and by the beginning of his 3rd year, he was viewed as a lost cause

The difference is that LaVine was drafted by one of the most a**-backwards, most toxic franchises in professional athletics, then subsequently traded to another mega-toxic environment, this time being forced to play under two of the worst coaches in contemporary NBA history. He also tore his ACL

Bryant got to play under Phil f***g Jackson, and for a team that wound up acquiring freaking Shaq

The Kobe comparison is not only far-off, it is grounds for imprisonment.

Dude - Kobe’s HS resume was ridiculous. He was born with a basketball in his mouth, played 5 positions, averaged a triple-double out the womb, was scrimmaging with the Sixers as a teenager, was a hyper-intelligent student on top of it all, and went straight to the pros without college at a time where it was not at all normal to draft HS prospects in the top-10. He went to prom with Brady; he was already a celebrity-lite. And part of the reason he went lower in the draft was cause he was determined to go LA.

Not to take away from Zach. He also had a pro sports dad and a good HS career, but it was no where near the same.

Went to what with whom?

Bryant was drafted at 13 by the Hornets, who didn’t want him. Per his own words: “I was excited to play for Cowens in Charlotte, but they didn’t want me. They had a glut of guards & he told me they couldn’t use me. It’s what turned me from the smiley kid into the kid with killer instinct, knowing that the team that drafted me didn’t want me”. He wasn’t drafted that low for any other reason other than that’s where he was drafted.

And the comparison to LaVine isn’t THAT far off. LaVine obviously wasn’t the HS prospect that Kobe was, but they share some similarities. Believe it or not, being developed under the greatest coach in NBA history & alongside the greatest center of all time does wonders for one’s career trajectory. Bryant was drafted at 13th for a reason.

[PaKii94]

Devin Vassell is the guy I want for us. Reminds me of Jimmy.

Yikes, really? I don’t see what he’s got in common with Butler. He’s much more similar to Paul George at the same age, or Leonard a few years later. He’s *far* more athletic than Jimmy & he is a 3&D guy, something Butler has never been

I don't see those comps, either. His handle, while not bad, isn't nearly as advanced as George's was coming in, and he doesn't have nearly as good a first step, also has a somewhat thinner frame. I'm also not sure that he has an alpha-scorer's mentality. Leonard was much thicker / stronger (and not the shooter).

At the same time, Vassell is sneaky athletic, can score from all 3 levels, has some ball handling ability, is a very strong wing defender already, shows a really high basketball IQ, and has near ideal size/length for a wing. His absolute upside could be Jayson Tatum like - similar frames, similar college production per 40 (though comparing soph to frosh) with the exception of FTA rate and total volume scoring - where the FT rate difference explains the distinction. But a 3&D player a la Tayshaun Prince is a much more likely outcome.

The biggest question marks on Vassell as a prospect, IMO, are (1) his low FT% and (2) his low FTA rate. I want to know why a guy who shoots well from distance is shooting under 80% from the stripe (74% this season, 68% as a rook despite shooting well from 3 on low volume that year - Tatum, to compare, was an 85% FT shooter). And while I see Vassell take it inside quite a bit, is overall usage the biggest cause of the FTA rate difference between him and Tatum? And is that caused by Vassell not being willing or maybe able to increase his role, or more short term "needs to fill out frame" issues?

I do think the low FTr is due to shared opportunity and "needs to fill out frame" issues. I do think he can be more aggressive but I think he knows his limitations (a la jimmy) and won't chuck up bad shots. See his 2 point FG%. His go to creation move is a couple dribble mid range pull up so he took quite a few of those but even with that part of his shot selection is finishing rate at the rim was pretty high. This to me indicates shot selection intelligence (which a lot of the top prospects in this class don't have *cough cough* ball *cough cough*)

[PaKii94]

Devin Vassell is the guy I want for us. Reminds me of Jimmy.

Yikes, really? I don’t see what he’s got in common with Butler. He’s much more similar to Paul George at the same age, or Leonard a few years later. He’s *far* more athletic than Jimmy & he is a 3&D guy, something Butler has never been

I don't see those comps, either. His handle, while not bad, isn't nearly as advanced as George's was coming in, and he doesn't have nearly as good a first step, also has a somewhat thinner frame. I'm also not sure that he has an alpha-scorer's mentality. Leonard was much thicker / stronger (and not the shooter).

At the same time, Vassell is sneaky athletic, can score from all 3 levels, has some ball handling ability, is a very strong wing defender already, shows a really high basketball IQ, and has near ideal size/length for a wing. His absolute upside could be Jayson Tatum like - similar frames, similar college production per 40 (though comparing soph to frosh) with the exception of FTA rate and total volume scoring - where the FT rate difference explains the distinction. But a 3&D player a la Tayshaun Prince is a much more likely outcome.

The biggest question marks on Vassell as a prospect, IMO, are (1) his low FT% and (2) his low FTA rate. I want to know why a guy who shoots well from distance is shooting under 80% from the stripe (74% this season, 68% as a rook despite shooting well from 3 on low volume that year - Tatum, to compare, was an 85% FT shooter). And while I see Vassell take it inside quite a bit, is overall usage the biggest cause of the FTA rate difference between him and Tatum? And is that caused by Vassell not being willing or maybe able to increase his role, or more short term "needs to fill out frame" issues?

The similarities I see with Jimmy is playing the right way. Making the right read at the right time. calling card/dedication to the defensive end where it isn't just bulldog one on one defense but a full team takeover shutdown mentality. It doesn't pop out with the raw numbers but there is a reason why advanced analytics paint both very favorably.

Their offensive game are inverted though but still analytic friendly. Jimmy came in as an elite FT drawer and worked to improve his shot. I think Vassell will come in as a very good shooter and will improve FT drawing as he gets access to NBA strength training.

Actually a player just popped into my head that I feel can be comped with vassell: Brandon Ingram. I think Vassell can be BI lite (decent shooter, plays the mid range game, can play make a bit, slowly ramping up FTr) with less volume scoring but better intangibles + elite defense. That would be a damn good player

[100proof]

Kira Lewis Jr Last 9 Games

23.2 PPG
6.7 APG
3.7 RPG
49% FG
46.3% 3PT

He's younger than Deni.
Fastest player in the draft
He could wind up the best scorer out of this draft.

Watch on YouTube

;t=373s

You can get him much later in the draft, if that is who you all like you should trade down.

Which brings me to why I am here, what would it take to get the #4 pick?