OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

[mtcan]

I don't know what last resort means. Is it when case numbers are in the thousands (because is actually is, in Canada) or when hospital capacity is maxes out (which is beyond the point of last resort). We also know that increase in case numbers inevitably leads to increasing hospitalizations. This is common sense. The point of these measures is to avoid the real last resort which is when tough decisions have to made as who gets the ventilator and who gets to die. This has already happened in other parts of the world. We don't need to get to that point. That is the real last resort.

The symptoms of Covid seem to have gotten milder and less dangerous. The hospitals in Ontario are not being overwhelmed. That was the whole purpose behind flattening the curve in the first place. They've jumped the gun on the latest measures imposed imo. Small businesses are getting further destroyed as well as the public's physical and mental health.

That is a strong possibility that they jumped the gun this time. Very, very possible. However they took a ton of criticism for being too slow to react at the beginning, I don't blame them for being a little gun shy. If your boss chews you out for responding too early , next time you will be early or you might lose that job is what you will be thinking. Plus saving lives is a major concern. I want to see the economy open up more but the lives thing gets me every time.

I'd rather be overly cautious than under prepared.

[BBallInSight]

The symptoms of Covid seem to have gotten milder and less dangerous. The hospitals in Ontario are not being overwhelmed. That was the whole purpose behind flattening the curve in the first place. They've jumped the gun on the latest measures imposed imo. Small businesses are getting further destroyed as well as the public's physical and mental health.

That is a strong possibility that they jumped the gun this time. Very, very possible. However they took a ton of criticism for being too slow to react at the beginning, I don't blame them for being a little gun shy. If your boss chews you out for responding too early , next time you will be early or you might lose that job is what you will be thinking. Plus saving lives is a major concern. I want to see the economy open up more but the lives thing gets me every time.

I'd rather be overly cautious than under prepared.

Says the guy who doesn't own a restaurant, or small business.

[mtcan]

That is a strong possibility that they jumped the gun this time. Very, very possible. However they took a ton of criticism for being too slow to react at the beginning, I don't blame them for being a little gun shy. If your boss chews you out for responding too early , next time you will be early or you might lose that job is what you will be thinking. Plus saving lives is a major concern. I want to see the economy open up more but the lives thing gets me every time.

I'd rather be overly cautious than under prepared.

Says the guy who doesn't own a restaurant, or small business.

It's the guy who would rather not see an Italy/Spain/NYC scenario play out anywhere in Canada. I'll leave it at that.

It isn't a total shut down right now. Restaurants are still able to offer takeout. Dining indoors isn't the only way to eat and make money. If you are a gym...well...the super spreader event that happened in Hamilton with at spin class isn't something anyone wants to see again. Otherwise...businesses are still open. Hopefully this is enough to keep numbers from rising further.

[Fairview4Life]

The government can give businesses money directly if that's all you're actually worried about. Argue for that instead of this nonsense about mask mouth or whatever.

[Wo1verine]

The way i look at it is show the evidence that supports shutting business down - If Ford and his posse can't provide that - **** should be opened bottom line ..

People are waking up slowly but surely and are asking questions the first time they accepted no questions asked - Not so much anymore thank god.

[RoLo]

woke wolverine

[13th Man]

The way i look at it is show the evidence that supports shutting business down - If Ford and his posse can't provide that - **** should be opened bottom line ..

People are waking up slowly but surely and are asking questions the first time they accepted no questions asked - Not so much anymore thank god.

This is not a bad piece from a few days ago:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-where-is-the-evidence-for-the-latest-restrictions-they-dont-have-it

Did we get the answers on Friday? Not really.

We were exposed to a shock-and-awe volley of numbers and data to justify these new restrictions. But what we were never given was hard numbers about how many cases of COVID-19 have been confirmed to be caused by attendance at a dining facility or a gym.

We’re supposedly living in an age of analytics and big data, but Friday’s announcements offered no deep dives.

“There isn’t an exact formula,” said Dr. William. He went on to vaguely cite data from “around the world” and “a combination of different data points” used to assess the situation.

Meanwhile, the province released a “confidential” document that was circulated around cabinet and caucus that bore the headline: “Evidence to Support Further Public Health Measures in High Transmission Areas: the need to act now.”

It includes graphs about infection rates, hospitalization rates and the curves in other countries. There is zero information pertaining to specific activities and regions in Ontario. There’s nothing in it that isn’t already in the public domain. Yet this seems to be the document that swayed Ford to change his tune.

[JJWong17]

The symptoms of Covid seem to have gotten milder and less dangerous. The hospitals in Ontario are not being overwhelmed. That was the whole purpose behind flattening the curve in the first place. They've jumped the gun on the latest measures imposed imo. Small businesses are getting further destroyed as well as the public's physical and mental health.

That is a strong possibility that they jumped the gun this time. Very, very possible. However they took a ton of criticism for being too slow to react at the beginning, I don't blame them for being a little gun shy. If your boss chews you out for responding too early , next time you will be early or you might lose that job is what you will be thinking. Plus saving lives is a major concern. I want to see the economy open up more but the lives thing gets me every time.

I'd rather be overly cautious than under prepared.

Especially when safety measures take a while to actually have an impact. It's not as if cases started to drop the day after indoor dining was removed as an option so acting at an appropriate time is always going to look like jumping the gun when you're still in the middle of things. We hadn't even hit 100 cases a day when they ordered the shutdown of non-essential businesses on Mar 23 but just a week later and we were well in the 200s.

Also, the earlier these measures are implemented, the sooner they can be lifted (both of New Zealand's lockdown periods only last 4 weeks partly bc they implemented them so early) so I'd argue that this second round of restrictions was actually too late. From Sep 6 to 12, Public Health Ontario record 477 new cases in Toronto. That's about the same as we were recording in late June, more than a month before TO was declared safe enough to move to stage 3. Imagine if they'd done the restrictions the week after Labour Day; we'd almost be at the end of it now. Instead, we are seeing almost as many cases in a single day (311 on the 12th, 270 on the 13th) as we were in the entire weeks in Sept and I'm not even sure this wave has peaked yet

[13th Man]

From today's briefing, basically they made their decision to close gyms on ZERO documented cases that point to any gyms being a culprit. I am a member of 2 gyms and both have taken extra-ordinary measures to keep their members safe and there have been no reported cases in these environments.

Doesn't look to me like any of these politicians ever hit the gym either so they don't know what they're depriving the people of.

Read the YouTube comments below the video, you will not find one person supporting this closure.

Watch on YouTube

[mtcan]

From today's briefing, basically they made their decision to close gyms on ZERO documented cases that point to any gyms being a culprit. I am a member of 2 gyms and both have taken extra-ordinary measures to keep their members safe and there have been no reported cases in these environments.

Doesn't look to me like any of these politicians ever hit the gym either so they don't know what they're depriving the people of.

Watch on YouTube

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/spinco-covid-outbreak-1.5759941

61 cases linked to a spinning class in Hamilton. Patient zero was asymptomatic.

Can you say...super spreader?

Thank God you aren't in charge and making decisions.

[13th Man]

From today's briefing, basically they made their decision to close gyms on ZERO documented cases that point to any gyms being a culprit. I am a member of 2 gyms and both have taken extra-ordinary measures to keep their members safe and there have been no reported cases in these environments.

Doesn't look to me like any of these politicians ever hit the gym either so they don't know what they're depriving the people of.

Watch on YouTube

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/spinco-covid-outbreak-1.5759941

61 cases linked to a spinning class in Hamilton. Patient zero was asymptomatic.

Can you say...super spreader?

Thank God you aren't in charge and making decisions.

So one club. Maybe that club was not adhering to proper safety protocol? Spin studios are more susceptible because many people are trapped inside a small area, sweating and breathing profusely. What about the hundreds of other gyms and studios that have had no issues?

The big club that I go to had shut down all of their group fitness classes too.

[Clay Davis]

From today's briefing, basically they made their decision to close gyms on ZERO documented cases that point to any gyms being a culprit. I am a member of 2 gyms and both have taken extra-ordinary measures to keep their members safe and there have been no reported cases in these environments.

Doesn't look to me like any of these politicians ever hit the gym either so they don't know what they're depriving the people of.

Watch on YouTube

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/spinco-covid-outbreak-1.5759941

61 cases linked to a spinning class in Hamilton. Patient zero was asymptomatic.

Can you say...super spreader?

Thank God you aren't in charge and making decisions.

Ya but how many outbreaks have there been at gyms? There have probably been other cases of superspreaders in businesses/services that haven't closed. That being said I went to an MMA gym that did a lot of live sparring (but still remaining in social circles and doing lotsa contact tracing, no pun intended ) lol just a matter of time til **** got real.

Also how could 61 cases be linked to a single spinning class when there was a hard limit of 10 people per class? That's people just not following regulations. Why punish businesses that have invested thousands of dollars into covid-proofing? I think they should've just told them to be super strict with enforcing regulations.

[13th Man]

Exactly, outbreaks can happen anywhere. Schools, shopping malls, grocery stores, salons, many of the places that are still open.

[mtcan]

From today's briefing, basically they made their decision to close gyms on ZERO documented cases that point to any gyms being a culprit. I am a member of 2 gyms and both have taken extra-ordinary measures to keep their members safe and there have been no reported cases in these environments.

Doesn't look to me like any of these politicians ever hit the gym either so they don't know what they're depriving the people of.

Watch on YouTube

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/spinco-covid-outbreak-1.5759941

61 cases linked to a spinning class in Hamilton. Patient zero was asymptomatic.

Can you say...super spreader?

Thank God you aren't in charge and making decisions.

Ya but how many outbreaks have there been at gyms? There have probably been other cases of superspreaders in businesses/services that haven't closed.

If the virus is floating around in more people...the chances of further incidents like this will only increase. Too bad for the fitness industry...and hopefully case numbers go down in the next 4 weeks so that they can reopen.

If it happened once...it can happen again. And if more people are walking around with the virus...chances are just that much higher. It is in everyone's best interest to keep the numbers down so we can all get on with life as much as possible.

[Clay Davis]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/spinco-covid-outbreak-1.5759941

61 cases linked to a spinning class in Hamilton. Patient zero was asymptomatic.

Can you say...super spreader?

Thank God you aren't in charge and making decisions.

Ya but how many outbreaks have there been at gyms? There have probably been other cases of superspreaders in businesses/services that haven't closed.

If the virus is floating around in more people...the chances of further incidents like this will only increase. Too bad for the fitness industry...and hopefully case numbers go down in the next 4 weeks so that they can reopen.

If it happened once...it can happen again. And if more people are walking around with the virus...chances are just that much higher. It is in everyone's best interest to keep the numbers down so we can all get on with life as much as possible.

Please read my edited post. It shouldn't have happened in the first place and would not happen in gyms that followed regulations.

[mtcan]

Exactly, outbreaks can happen anywhere. Schools, shopping malls, grocery stores, salons, many of the places that are still open.

Gyms aren't essential services. Sorry.

Super spreader events have happened in bars/restaurants already. Several restaurants and bars on King St. W were shut down by the city after having infected staff and contact tracers linked those establishments with hundreds of cases.

We have seen super spreaders from weddings as well.

I haven't seen schools with more than 5 cases in Ontario yet...but I wouldnt hesitate to close those as well if it came to it.

Same with malls...if we see 61+ cases from one mall or store...that should be looked at as well.

We have seen single isolated cases from retail and grocery stores...and those stores did close for a day or two to sanitize.

This isn't something I want to see.

[NinjaBro]

It's truly unbelievable that we're shutting down businesses. I've been watching some japanese wrestling shows and they filled a 10,000 seat arena at 50% capacity. Yes, that's 5000 people in an arena. All had to wear masks for entry and they were told to refrain from making verbal noises to stop transmission. You can clap and stomp your feet etc.

Life is virtually almost back to normal in Japan. They just treat their citizens like adults. Businesses don't need to be shut down. Gyms, restaurants, sporting events. Just take the proper precautions and you'll be fine.

I'm all for doing everything we can to contain the virus but we can do it thoughtfully without having to shut down the economy.

[NinjaBro]

Here in Vancouver, we're seeing a spike in cases too just like the rest of Canada. It's been mostly from gatherings like weddings, parties. People are tired of being away from their loved ones for so long and has the need to get together. I get it. This is how it's mostly been spreading. Also now with schools opening, kids are going to mingle, pick up the virus and bring it home to their families.

If a business establishment is operating safely and following guidelines, they shouldn't be forced to shut down. There's a lot of gyms in my area and every one of them are following guidelines. Limiting the number of people in, open air spaces with good ventilation. Don't need to be shut down yet.

[mtcan]

It's truly unbelievable that we're shutting down businesses. I've been watching some japanese wrestling shows and they filled a 10,000 seat arena at 50% capacity. Yes, that's 5000 people in an arena. All had to wear masks for entry and they were told to refrain from making verbal noises to stop transmission. You can clap and stomp your feet etc.

Life is virtually almost back to normal in Japan. They just treat their citizens like adults. Businesses don't need to be shut down. Gyms, restaurants, sporting events. Just take the proper precautions and you'll be fine.

I'm all for doing everything we can to contain the virus but we can do it thoughtfully without having to shut down the economy.

It's funny you mention Japan. People in Japan are generally very obedient with whatever regulations the government sets out. Mask wearing is very well adhered to. And in general...Japanese people (and most people in East Asian countries) are not much for affection and aren't very touchy people.

Also...if you look at South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan...despite the covid spikes here and there, larger populations (in Japan and South Korea) vs Canada and denser populations than Canada...the covid rates in those countries are much lower than Canada. People in all of those countries understand the importance of masks and social distancing and buy in...unlike western countries that have idiots pushing conspiracy theories, hold anti-mask parties and giant house parties. I get that Hong Kong and Singapore have more heavy-handed government control but citizens don't generally question and protest...so it's all good.

Say what you will...but Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan have it right. We can learn from them.

[Tor_Raps]

I'm also on the pro gym side here. Working out is my form of meditation so punishing this industry just because you feel like it shouldn't be enough.

Many of the gyms I've been to are taking this very seriously. How about law enforcement crack down on the businesses that are not following the guidelines? That should be strictly enforced and simple enough to do.