LeBron vs Jordan

[RastaBull]

Love all the conversation here. We are kind of preaching to the choir here; but I like that a lot of recognition goes to LeBron for the accomplishments and career. But Jordan still BOSS! haha

I'm going to open up a can of worms I will quickly regret. What's the baseball analogy? Is there one? I guess I was thinking of how I don't often hear Hank Aaron's name come first out of people's mouth in the GOAT debate, even though he's at the top of everything (in large part because of his obvious and undeniable greatness, but also in part because of extraordinary longevity). I more often hear Willie Mays (whose peak was shorter but shined even brighter considering defense and every aspect). Or maybe Jordan is the Ted Williams argument (the lost years in his peak) or Lou Gehrig (always in my top 3, granted I have some bias as also have a form of muscular dystrophy).

Like I said, I regret this already haha. It's obviously not a good analogy because baseball longevity is much more common place among the top stars and it's history dates back many many generations without much rule changes/era difference (aside from the very very obvious and important barriers of race). Just made me wonder if in 50 years time what they'll look back and think about the first 60+ years of NBA.

[prolific passer]

Love all the conversation here. We are kind of preaching to the choir here; but I like that a lot of recognition goes to LeBron for the accomplishments and career. But Jordan still BOSS! haha

I'm going to open up a can of worms I will quickly regret. What's the baseball analogy? Is there one? I guess I was thinking of how I don't often hear Hank Aaron's name come first out of people's mouth in the GOAT debate, even though he's at the top of everything (in large part because of his obvious and undeniable greatness, but also in part because of extraordinary longevity). I more often hear Willie Mays (whose peak was shorter but shined even brighter considering defense and every aspect). Or maybe Jordan is the Ted Williams argument (the lost years in his peak) or Lou Gehrig (always in my top 3, granted I have some bias as also have a form of muscular dystrophy).

Like I said, I regret this already haha. It's obviously not a good analogy because baseball longevity is much more common place among the top stars and it's history dates back many many generations without much rule changes/era difference (aside from the very very obvious and important barriers of race). Just made me wonder if in 50 years time what they'll look back and think about the first 60+ years of NBA.

The

For the baseball analogy? Most would say Ruth but when you think about it? Probably Gehrig due them trying to play in every game and playing hard in every game to help get them both individual and team success. Both 3 peated in their sports.

[exospheer]

Watch on YouTube

[Leslie Forman]

To me Jordan is the clear GOAT but I can understand anyone who'd pick LBJ or KAJ.

LeBron, sure. I get it. But I don't really care for any arguments for the past great centers.

Kareem only won when he had either a Magic or Oscar next to him. Wilt needed a West/Goodrich or Greer/Cunningham/Walker combo. They always needed an insane team around them.

Oscar, West, Magic, Larry, these guys are actually underrated on the all-time list and should be higher IMO. And Hakeem and Duncan too, for being the rare big men who could win titles without some insane Magic/Wade/Oscar/etc. level of teammate next to them.

[jc23]

One thing lebron has over Jordan is the bar that MJ created. From my memory many already had MJ as the GOAT after his first 3 peat. BY the time he came back in 95 he was just adding to that title. Lebron gets to measue himself to a higher level player then MJ got to.

Saw the same thing with the 16 warriors and their 73 wins, Chicago could have won more then 72 in 96 but their goal was to get 70. The Warriors goal was 72 and they just did eclipse it at the possible cost of a title.

In the past it was MJ for his peak years and perfection in the finals, KAJ for his longevity and numbers and Russell for his rings; as the most common names in the top 3. Lebron will now own the longevity and numbers title but still dont think his peak was better then Michaels and nobody is getting 11 rings.

[League Circles]

Lebron possibly the most capable, most accomplished, best all around player ever, but the best was MJ, and probably Kareem after MJ before Lebron. Being an unstoppable scorer while not being a liability in any area is better than a string jack of all trades in Lebron. No real excuse for him not averaging 35 ppg for his career. Just not enough of a KILLER.

[Mbrahv0528]

HGH/steroids surely makes a significant impact here.

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I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.

Agreed he does and maybe he uses HGH or other things like SARMS etc... but there is a strong likelihood that MJ and everyone else did too so it is really a moot point.

Jordan's head didn't grow over the course of his career...definitely not moot.

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[BigBoss23]

I agree with R3AL1TY.

For the record, I would choose all of the following players over Lebron if I have to pick one to win, with a roll of the dice as to which era we are placed in

1. Jordan (clearly)
2. Bird (assuming healthy)
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. This is where Lebron starts getting serious consideration and likely wins out, against Magic and Shaq, but for me personally, loses to Hakeem. And he also never was as dominant as finals Shaq, who was the only player to contest Jordan, in that regard.

Lebron is simply not competent enough as a scorer. As a matter of fact, he's incredibly flawed as a scorer. Yes- you've read that right. He averages a miserable 37.5 percent from beyond 3 feet. It gets even worse in the playoffs. That coupled with his poor free throw shooting, there's a reason he's been known by half fans to be clutch and half say he's not clutch at all.
Video explains everything here -

It starts around 24:30, 22:30 if you want the full point

Watch on YouTube

26:45 - dispelling the myth of Lebron being clutch.

If you really think that Lebron's getting to the rim that easily in the 80s or 90s, then I suggest going back and watching the way the game operated back then. Not only was Jordan, well, Jordan... but he's one of the best pure shooters to ever play and easily the best midrange shooter (backed up by stats in the midrange thread on the PC forum where even 2nd place Dirk couldn't get near Jordan's volume and efficiency combination).

Here's the issue- We've only seen Lebron dominate in the small ball era. He has not dominated the larger teams with the exception of that one excellent Detroit series back in what, 09. I am nearly positive that he'd struggle against an era with a clogged paint and more defensive allowance, which is all eras prior to the 00s. I also think that there's 0 chance he finishes top 5 in defensive player of the year voting with guys like Jordan, Pippen, Hakeem, Payton, Ewing, Alonzo, Dikembi around.... or in the 80s when Jordan won? They had Hakeem, Eaton, Cooper, Ewing, etc. These guys are all not just better... they're much better defenders than Lebron.

So what does Lebron really have over Jordan other than stats, which even that Jordan far surpasses in context?

We've seen Giannis, Steph, Westbrook, Lebron, Luka, Harden, and now even Jimmy put up GOAT quality stats. Include Kawhi if we're talking PER. After seeing what happened to Giannis and Jimmy equaling Lebron this series, it obviously doesn't mean much and certainly indicates a hyper inflated current game, statistically speaking
So what really.... is there to favor Lebron? Judging off of what everyone says on the other forums, basically excuses, "9 finals!" in the eastern conference, and then the claim that he somehow beat the GOAT team which, did not have Durant, and also did not have Steph, who was 2 games into the playoffs, playing terribly in the Rockets series, injured, and was the main reason they got 73 wins in the first place.

Bottom line -
Jordan's more clutch, has less holes in his game (or even none, TBH), has more championships, more accomplishments in quite a few less seasons and a retirement preventing more achievements, his teams had better winning records, and he defeated more 50 win teams. He even has the stats.

Not to mention the league agenda on outcomes they tried to rig:

2012 finals game 2 - lebron fouled KD on the game tying shot but went uncalled.

2013 finals game 6 - the Bosh block on Danny Green to end the game was clearly a foul

2014 finals game 5 - typical call fouls on the team ahead in the series to open the game, but the Spurs beat the fix by shooting the lights out

2016 finals games 5/6 - lebron teabags draymond on a move that would start a fight for a pick up game, yet he does that and lobbies for a suspension. Tells me he doesnt believe the cavs can win fair. Game 6, Curry is in convenient phantom foul trouble and fouls out for the first time in his career. Ironically game 7 was actually a fairly reffed game.

2017 finals games 3/4 - refs called tons of fouls on GSW to open game 3 but they were hot from downtown and beat the fix. Game 4, refs double down.

[Michael Jackson]

I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.

Agreed he does and maybe he uses HGH or other things like SARMS etc... but there is a strong likelihood that MJ and everyone else did too so it is really a moot point.

Jordan's head didn't grow over the course of his career...definitely not moot.

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First in Jordan’s years HGH was not the go to and that is the one PED that causes Bine mass growth. It is also one of the safest for side effects, but it wasn’t really a thing until the late 90’s. Most professional athletes use them, in some form or the other. When women’s Olympic swimming getting popped, and they start HS athletes on them, it’s hard for me to fathom that that someone who played every advantage was going to let his contemporaries get away with it and not do it himself. Just doesn’t fit his character.

[Southpaw]

To me Jordan is the clear GOAT but I can understand anyone who'd pick LBJ or KAJ.

Jordan just has everything. Stats, intangibles, hardware, dominance, mystique (not really basketball related but still) and tons of legendary moments. Something that can't really be measured in this Jordan vs Lebron debate is how dominant Jordan was. If you lived through the 90s, you'd know and understand. Anytime Jordan and the Bulls was playing, you never feel like they would lose, even if they were down. You feel like they'd be winning the game no matter what.

As for Lebron's 10 finals appearance being used against Jordan, I briefly checked the years the Jordan Bulls lost in the playoffs and 3 of those they lost to the eventual champions (86/89/90) while 2 (87/88) were against the eastern champs. It's not like they're losing to some weak teams.

Something that's not talked about enough imo is how Lebron basically has his own talent agency even while he's playing and it's had an influence on how he built his superteams. We all know how the Lakers got AD.

MJ lost to all time great teams in the Celtics and Pistons. He was playing with a very young team too. He also pulled a lot of upsets to higher seeded teams. He wasn't a front runner like Bron. In 88 everyone was picking the cavs. In 89 they were the 6th seed and beat the 3 seed and 2 seed. In 90, they were the 3 seed and beat the 2 seed and took the great pistons 1 seed to 7 games. He wasn't getting knocked off by teams like the Magic or starless Pistons or the Celtics. The Pistons and Celtics that knocked off MJ had multiple hall of famers in their prime and were multiple title teams.

I was either not born yet or too young to have witnessed MJ's early years so I'm glad to read more context about them. These details are omitted whenever people argue for Lebron's 10 finals appearance. I even had a debate recently how Lebron, in essence, should be considered GOAT over Jordan because he has 4 Gold Medals and 6 Silvers to Jordan 6 Golds and 0 Silvers. All I could do is laugh

[Southpaw]

To me Jordan is the clear GOAT but I can understand anyone who'd pick LBJ or KAJ.

LeBron, sure. I get it. But I don't really care for any arguments for the past great centers.

Kareem only won when he had either a Magic or Oscar next to him. Wilt needed a West/Goodrich or Greer/Cunningham/Walker combo. They always needed an insane team around them.

Oscar, West, Magic, Larry, these guys are actually underrated on the all-time list and should be higher IMO. And Hakeem and Duncan too, for being the rare big men who could win titles without some insane Magic/Wade/Oscar/etc. level of teammate next to them.

To me, Lebron and Kareem are close in that they both have the longevity/stats advantage over Jordan and they've won their titles by being on stacked teams. I'm not punishing them too much for it because they battled against some equally stacked teams too (Kareem more so than Lebron. Lebron stacked the deck way more in his favor and only really battled one superteam in the Warriors). I think Jerry, Magic and Larry are properly rated because they all played on stacked teams most of their careers. I totally agree with you on Oscar, Hakeem and specially Duncan. I always see people ranking Duncan below Shaq and/or Kobe on the all-time list when imo he should be clearly above both.

[dougthonus]

I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.

Agreed he does and maybe he uses HGH or other things like SARMS etc... but there is a strong likelihood that MJ and everyone else did too so it is really a moot point.

Jordan's head didn't grow over the course of his career...definitely not moot.

Sent from my SM-F707U using RealGM mobile app

If someone had a gun to my head and asked if Jordan was a PED user and was pulling the trigger if I guessed wrong, I'd guess yes. Same with LeBron.

[RSP83]

I've been in Lebron vs. MJ debates that says comparing number of championship ring is unfair, because it's team achievement, and it depends a lot on how good are your opponents really. But, it also doesn't make sense to discredit championship rings. The primary goal is to win championships. That's why I never argue about Russell being in the GOAT conversation, nobody can take the 11 championship rings away from him. GOAT must be champions. And how big of a champion this player was during his career matters. This is why I don't have Wilt too high (but still top 5).

MJ beat the game, he sat at the throne during those times, and nobody really dethroned him. He left on his own the first retirement, and he retired as a champion (for 3 straight years). That's pure greatness, great career, and it's not like he took shortcuts to get there. MJ had a perfect storybook career, and he makes it really difficult for guys like Lebron to really beat him as the GOAT. MJ's accomplishment is nothing like I've ever seen before and after MJ.

[Ugly Duckling]

LeBron is #2 all time and a lot of the younger population doesn't fully comprehend how dominant Jordan actually was, so it's understandable that this is being talked about. There was no doubt MJ would pull through. That's how dominant he was. Also, he did it in an era where there was less training tech, supplements, med equipment, etc. That being said, LeBron's game 6 performance was pretty epic at 35 and I have to give respect where it's due

[bledredwine]

We basically know that Lebron's a PED user.

Remember that season where they stated that they were enforcing drug testing, and Lebron magically lost a ton of weight and had a mediocre season?
That was plenty of proof for me.

[dice]

We basically know that Lebron's a PED user.

Remember that season where they stated that they were enforcing drug testing, and Lebron magically lost a ton of weight and had a mediocre season?
That was plenty of proof for me.

i'm sure it was

so they enforced drug testing for a single season, did they? or did lebron respond by planting someone in the league office and now knows what they're going to test for ahead of time? i think that's a pretty solid conspiracy theory. you're free to borrow it

remember when MJ gained a lot of muscle? i don't think they were testing back then

[dice]

I've been in Lebron vs. MJ debates that says comparing number of championship ring is unfair, because it's team achievement, and it depends a lot on how good are your opponents really. But, it also doesn't make sense to discredit championship rings. The primary goal is to win championships. That's why I never argue about Russell being in the GOAT conversation, nobody can take the 11 championship rings away from him. GOAT must be champions. And how big of a champion this player was during his career matters. This is why I don't have Wilt too high (but still top 5).

when bill russell started winning titles the nba was like a rec league compared to today

MJ beat the game, he sat at the throne during those times, and nobody really dethroned him. He left on his own the first retirement, and he retired as a champion (for 3 straight years). That's pure greatness, great career, and it's not like he took shortcuts to get there. MJ had a perfect storybook career, and he makes it really difficult for guys like Lebron to really beat him as the GOAT. MJ's accomplishment is nothing like I've ever seen before and after MJ.

true. the one thing lebron has going for him is longevity. no years taken off to recharge his batteries, constant scrutiny since age 15 in a much more demanding media age. and, of course, there's always the argument that the competition is that much more fierce given the ever-expanding talent pool

[dice]

To me Jordan is the clear GOAT but I can understand anyone who'd pick LBJ or KAJ.

Jordan just has everything. Stats, intangibles, hardware, dominance, mystique (not really basketball related but still) and tons of legendary moments. Something that can't really be measured in this Jordan vs Lebron debate is how dominant Jordan was. If you lived through the 90s, you'd know and understand. Anytime Jordan and the Bulls was playing, you never feel like they would lose, even if they were down. You feel like they'd be winning the game no matter what.

As for Lebron's 10 finals appearance being used against Jordan, I briefly checked the years the Jordan Bulls lost in the playoffs and 3 of those they lost to the eventual champions (86/89/90) while 2 (87/88) were against the eastern champs. It's not like they're losing to some weak teams.

Something that's not talked about enough imo is how Lebron basically has his own talent agency even while he's playing and it's had an influence on how he built his superteams. We all know how the Lakers got AD.

MJ lost to all time great teams in the Celtics and Pistons. He was playing with a very young team too. He also pulled a lot of upsets to higher seeded teams. He wasn't a front runner like Bron. In 88 everyone was picking the cavs. In 89 they were the 6th seed and beat the 3 seed and 2 seed. In 90, they were the 3 seed and beat the 2 seed and took the great pistons 1 seed to 7 games. He wasn't getting knocked off by teams like the Magic or starless Pistons or the Celtics. The Pistons and Celtics that knocked off MJ had multiple hall of famers in their prime and were multiple title teams.

I was either not born yet or too young to have witnessed MJ's early years so I'm glad to read more context about them. These details are omitted whenever people argue for Lebron's 10 finals appearance. I even had a debate recently how Lebron, in essence, should be considered GOAT over Jordan because he has 4 Gold Medals and 6 Silvers to Jordan 6 Golds and 0 Silvers. All I could do is laugh

first of all, the argument that MJ was undefeated in the finals is a bad one. because of course that means he lost BEFORE getting to the finals. at the same time, lebron's road to the finals in the east was less than daunting. so, at the end of the day, the bottom line gauge of winning is ring count. every other measure is a distant secondary consideration

[dice]

I agree with R3AL1TY.

For the record, I would choose all of the following players over Lebron if I have to pick one to win, with a roll of the dice as to which era we are placed in

1. Jordan (clearly)
2. Bird (assuming healthy)
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. This is where Lebron starts getting serious consideration and likely wins out, against Magic and Shaq, but for me personally, loses to Hakeem. And he also never was as dominant as finals Shaq, who was the only player to contest Jordan, in that regard.

Lebron is simply not competent enough as a scorer. As a matter of fact, he's incredibly flawed as a scorer. Yes- you've read that right. He averages a miserable 37.5 percent from beyond 3 feet. It gets even worse in the playoffs. That coupled with his poor free throw shooting, there's a reason he's been known by half fans to be clutch and half say he's not clutch at all.
Video explains everything here -

It starts around 24:30, 22:30 if you want the full point

Watch on YouTube

26:45 - dispelling the myth of Lebron being clutch.

If you really think that Lebron's getting to the rim that easily in the 80s or 90s, then I suggest going back and watching the way the game operated back then. Not only was Jordan, well, Jordan... but he's one of the best pure shooters to ever play and easily the best midrange shooter (backed up by stats in the midrange thread on the PC forum where even 2nd place Dirk couldn't get near Jordan's volume and efficiency combination).

Here's the issue- We've only seen Lebron dominate in the small ball era. He has not dominated the larger teams with the exception of that one excellent Detroit series back in what, 09. I am nearly positive that he'd struggle against an era with a clogged paint and more defensive allowance, which is all eras prior to the 00s. I also think that there's 0 chance he finishes top 5 in defensive player of the year voting with guys like Jordan, Pippen, Hakeem, Payton, Ewing, Alonzo, Dikembi around.... or in the 80s when Jordan won? They had Hakeem, Eaton, Cooper, Ewing, etc. These guys are all not just better... they're much better defenders than Lebron.

So what does Lebron really have over Jordan other than stats, which even that Jordan far surpasses in context?

We've seen Giannis, Steph, Westbrook, Lebron, Luka, Harden, and now even Jimmy put up GOAT quality stats. Include Kawhi if we're talking PER. After seeing what happened to Giannis and Jimmy equaling Lebron this series, it obviously doesn't mean much and certainly indicates a hyper inflated current game, statistically speaking
So what really.... is there to favor Lebron? Judging off of what everyone says on the other forums, basically excuses, "9 finals!" in the eastern conference, and then the claim that he somehow beat the GOAT team which, did not have Durant, and also did not have Steph, who was 2 games into the playoffs, playing terribly in the Rockets series, injured, and was the main reason they got 73 wins in the first place.

Bottom line -
Jordan's more clutch, has less holes in his game (or even none, TBH), has more championships, more accomplishments in quite a few less seasons and a retirement preventing more achievements, his teams had better winning records, and he defeated more 50 win teams. He even has the stats.

Not to mention the league agenda on outcomes they tried to rig

the nba doesn't rig ****. would be impossible to keep under wraps. total amateur hour for a global cash cow

[dice]

I think it has more to do with advancements in science. Bron takes meticulous care of his body.

Agreed he does and maybe he uses HGH or other things like SARMS etc... but there is a strong likelihood that MJ and everyone else did too so it is really a moot point.

Jordan's head didn't grow over the course of his career...definitely not moot.

wait, lebron's HEAD is bigger? first time i've heard that one. it's looked like a pretty normal size all along to me. his body saw a pretty normal progression for a pro athlete as well. it's not like he got jacked overnight like barry bonds did. hell, lebron has never even been abnormally jacked given his natural size and obvious fitness devotion

lebron age 16:



all that's changed about his head is where the hair is located