2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Doctor MJ]

snip

Where's Harden on OPOY?

I think one thing that's taken for granted is that, IIRC, even when Luka sits, the Mavs had an amazing ORTG. Not to say Luka's not a special, all-time talent on O, of course; just not sure what he did is better than what Harden did.

I completely understand picking Harden over Luka. I don't think it's outside the realm of debate.

But Luka did just lead the best ORtg offense in NBA history, and while the team did surprisingly well without him, it was at its best with him without question. The fact the supporting cast is also playing well in this scheme is something I'd say is quite noteworthy, but it's still made up of guys who are cast offs. In a situation like this I really think it's important not to forget what tier of players they actually are, and that Luka is the star they all orbit around.

[eminence]

I usually only vote on the regular POY. But just floating this here... LeBron as DPOY?

[kayess]

snip

Where's Harden on OPOY?

I think one thing that's taken for granted is that, IIRC, even when Luka sits, the Mavs had an amazing ORTG. Not to say Luka's not a special, all-time talent on O, of course; just not sure what he did is better than what Harden did.

I completely understand picking Harden over Luka. I don't think it's outside the realm of debate.

But Luka did just lead the best ORtg offense in NBA history, and while the team did surprisingly well without him, it was at its best with him without question. The fact the supporting cast is also playing well in this scheme is something I'd say is quite noteworthy, but it's still made up of guys who are cast offs. In a situation like this I really think it's important not to forget what tier of players they actually are, and that Luka is the star they all orbit around.

That's true, but of course to say that they're not top talents offensively means that a) scheme is obviously a huge factor here (as Chuck pointed out), thus b) the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Luka's all-time offensive talent is obviously magnified by this, I'd argue to a greater extent than Harden's is by his cast and scheme and when you take that into account with everything else, I think it's enough to put Harden above Luka this year.

I actually don't think it's possible to figure Luka out, but I wonder if there's going to be a "guy called up from the minors with stuff MLB guys can't figure out for a year, before guy regresses in his second year" effect with him next year. Obviously he'll improve his ft and 3p%, and if he takes another meaningful leap he'll have a shot at supplanting Nash/peak Jordan/Magic/late LeBron as the GOAT peak, so can't wait to see what happens

[iggymcfrack]

So far, what I’m sure of is that the top 2 players in the league were Lebron and Giannis in some order. Next 6 guys in some order are: (Davis, Butler, Jokic, Harden, Kawhi, Luka).

Will look over numbers later and try to straighten them out within their tiers.

[Texas Chuck]

That's true, but of course to say that they're not top talents offensively means that a) scheme is obviously a huge factor here (as Chuck pointed out), thus b) the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

But its important to note that when Luka is in the game, the scheme is literally give Luka the ball and Rick stays out of the way. Yes they have a couple set plays and his scheme helps with spacing, but Rick is very open about the flow offense he prefers to run when he has players he trusts to run it and it all started with Kidd. Rick had always been a very tight, controlling coach calling plays every possession and Kidd was frustrated and felt confined and went to Rick and said dude the Mavs traded for me for a reason, let me do what I do. Rick relented and it culminated in a title.

With Luka, Rick had already learned the lesson and just gave him the ball and freedom from the jump and last year Luka took the offense to unheard of heights.


When Luka is out of the game the Mavs play a totally different game. Still very effective obviously, but with not much relevance to how they play when Luka is in there.

[Texas Chuck]

I actually don't think it's possible to figure Luka out, but I wonder if there's going to be a "guy called up from the minors with stuff MLB guys can't figure out for a year, before guy regresses in his second year" effect with him next year.

I get it. As a fan of his team I kept waiting for reality to set in and him go back to being a mere mortal. I did the same thing with Dirk until about 2004 when it was obvious this dude not only wasn't going to revert to the norm, the new norm was just going to keep improving every year.

But we saw a series with a smart defensive coach, with multiple "ideal" Luka defenders to throw at him and they didn't figure him out. In fact even playing with a significant injury he was even more effective than he was against the entire league in the RS.

I don't think what Luka does is like a junk-ball pitcher at all. He's an elite finisher who gets into the paint basically at will, draws fouls very well, and oh yeah just as a bonus is already a top 3 vision/passer in the entire league where the other guys in his grouping are Lebron and Jokic and nobody. And all this where he's a bad 3-pt shooter. If he could get that percentage up to even 35%, what are defenders supposed to do? Can't lay back, can't crowd him, can't double him.


I've been a skeptic partly to protect myself from disappointment. But let's face it, this dude is absolutely for real. He probably won't take another massive jump like he did this year, but I think it very unlikely he regresses next year.

[Vladimir777]

My goal in life is to one day watch enough of the games in a season to be able to vote in threads like this. Nursing school has been killing me lately.

If I did vote, this would be LeBron definitely for #1, but beyond that, I'd definitely have to research quite a bit. It's insane how long LeBron has been good for. This board has actually started to sway me away from picking Jordan as my automatic GOAT anymore.

[kayess]

I actually don't think it's possible to figure Luka out, but I wonder if there's going to be a "guy called up from the minors with stuff MLB guys can't figure out for a year, before guy regresses in his second year" effect with him next year.

I get it. As a fan of his team I kept waiting for reality to set in and him go back to being a mere mortal. I did the same thing with Dirk until about 2004 when it was obvious this dude not only wasn't going to revert to the norm, the new norm was just going to keep improving every year.

But we saw a series with a smart defensive coach, with multiple "ideal" Luka defenders to throw at him and they didn't figure him out. In fact even playing with a significant injury he was even more effective than he was against the entire league in the RS.

I don't think what Luka does is like a junk-ball pitcher at all. He's an elite finisher who gets into the paint basically at will, draws fouls very well, and oh yeah just as a bonus is already a top 3 vision/passer in the entire league where the other guys in his grouping are Lebron and Jokic and nobody. And all this where he's a bad 3-pt shooter. If he could get that percentage up to even 35%, what are defenders supposed to do? Can't lay back, can't crowd him, can't double him.


I've been a skeptic partly to protect myself from disappointment. But let's face it, this dude is absolutely for real. He probably won't take another massive jump like he did this year, but I think it very unlikely he regresses next year.

Lol like I said, you don't have to sell me on Luka at all, he is the **** truth. I more wondered that because it seems to good to be true that there's like 2 players who have an outside shot to be better than LeBron (and 1 who is ahead of his career curve, especially on O) in the league at the same time.

The pitching analogy isn't comparing him to a junkballer though, more like to an absolute stud, a 2, even 3 pitch pitcher whose stuff is just so otherworldly guys can't figure it out. Then a full season's data is present and they sabermetrics the living daylights out of his tendencies and come up with some weird **** like swing on the first pitch 80% of the time, sit curve on 2-2, etc.

Obviously Luka isn't like that and it seems if he gets a 3 and gets his FTs up he's as close to theoretically unstoppable as possible. He even gets Jimmy Butler level respect from the refs - I guess that's really the only thing that can be taken away from him lmao

[Texas Chuck]

He even gets Jimmy Butler level respect from the refs -

Luka disagrees.

And beyond the obvious need to improve his shooting in all areas, my number one goal for Luka this off-season is to figure out how to leave the refs the hell alone. He would get even more calls than he does if he didn't turn and stare them down after literally every call they miss. It's a really bad habit and he needs to break it ASAP.

[kayess]

He even gets Jimmy Butler level respect from the refs -

Luka disagrees.

And beyond the obvious need to improve his shooting in all areas, my number one goal for Luka this off-season is to figure out how to leave the refs the hell alone. He would get even more calls than he does if he didn't turn and stare them down after literally every call they miss. It's a really bad habit and he needs to break it ASAP.

LMAO the LeBron path indeed.

Is he getting a lot of non-calls because he's so goddamned chonky that the refs don't think there was contact? (a la Shaq, Dwight, LeBron)

[Gibson22]

I'd like to partecipate in the voting btw

[Doctor MJ]

We are live!

Anyone not yet on the Voting Panel please read the first post of the Voting thread.

[Doctor MJ]

My goal in life is to one day watch enough of the games in a season to be able to vote in threads like this. Nursing school has been killing me lately.

If I did vote, this would be LeBron definitely for #1, but beyond that, I'd definitely have to research quite a bit. It's insane how long LeBron has been good for. This board has actually started to sway me away from picking Jordan as my automatic GOAT anymore.

Hi Vladimir,

I just wanted to say that you don't have to be the most knowledgeable person in the room to warrant a vote. It's okay to have a different opinion from someone you think knows more than you. Your opinion is what makes sense to you.

I should be clear that if you haven't been participating in this discussion then based on my long-defined rules you shouldn't be voting, but it's important to me that you know that you shouldn't feel like you can't be a part of the discussion unless know everything because the discussion is how many of us really learn.

Good luck with Nursing School! The world needs you!

[Doctor MJ]

2 questions:

1)How do you guys view MIP? (I think after mulling it over I will replace Murray with Robinson, but I feel like Luka is the Crux of that question)

2)Does anyone else feel weird about voting for Dragic for 6MOTY or am I just weighting the playoff/bubble results too much?

1. Hardest award for me to settle on because of Luka type questions. I feel like the heart of the issue is that it's not really intended to be given to the Most Improved Player so much as the "Guy who surprised us by getting a lot better and didn't get a bunch of other accolade love". If you go by the actual name of the award, it's Luka. If you go by the intention of the award, it's not Luka.

All I know is that when people actually get behind a Luka-type I feel silly being one of the group telling them they're wrong.

2. I voted Dragic as 6MOY while also feeling weird about it.

The thing is that the 6MOY is generally intended to be a guy whose stand out moments came as a 6th Man. Based on the actual definition of the award - spending enough of your time as a 6th man - Dragic was the best of the eligible players this year and he should get it. But I'd totally understand the shape of his season making someone not vote for him.

In the end, if the guys who were in the 6MOY lead pre-Bubble had performed well in the Bubble, I'd probably have stuck with them. But they didn't. The Clipper duo got exposed, and Schroder really just feels pretty meh to me.

You start looking down the voting list then and your eyes hit Dragic and it's just like "Yes, he was the best player on this list this year."

I will also say: As with the MIP, the 6MOY is intended to give players a chance for accolade love who otherwise wouldn't get any, and Dragic soooooo deserves some accolade love.

[Doctor MJ]

I usually only vote on the regular POY. But just floating this here... LeBron as DPOY?

I've thought about it definitely. To this point I haven't been able to quite justify putting him in my Top 3 (which at present is AD/Giannis/Gobert).

[Dupp]

We don’t have to vote MIP like the media though right? They have their own criteria but the MIP was Luka by far. There’s no real discussion for anyone else if we vote on who improved the most.

[Doctor MJ]

We don’t have to vote MIP like the media though right? They have their own criteria but the MIP was Luka by far. There’s no real discussion for anyone else if we vote on who improved the most.

Vote how you think MIP should be, just make sure you factor in both the regular and post season.

[LukaTheGOAT]

2 questions:

1)How do you guys view MIP? (I think after mulling it over I will replace Murray with Robinson, but I feel like Luka is the Crux of that question)

2)Does anyone else feel weird about voting for Dragic for 6MOTY or am I just weighting the playoff/bubble results too much?

For question #1, it has to be Luka based on what I consider the most improved player. He went from a fringe all-star level guy (or maybe even sub-level depending on your criteria), to a legit MVP candidate level guy in one year. That leap is near unprecedented with Lebron being the only guy who immediately comes to mind to do it.

Murray is interesting, but I would say he is clearly below Luka, and therefore has not improved as much. Also I feel as if the sample size of Murray being a legit star guy is smaller than it is with Luka.

For #2, I am not sure what to think. I believe Dragic was playing as a legit all-star level guy in the PS though. Of course, he was starting in the PS, but I guess you should do whatever floats your boat and matches your intuition.

[Vladimir777]

My goal in life is to one day watch enough of the games in a season to be able to vote in threads like this. Nursing school has been killing me lately.

If I did vote, this would be LeBron definitely for #1, but beyond that, I'd definitely have to research quite a bit. It's insane how long LeBron has been good for. This board has actually started to sway me away from picking Jordan as my automatic GOAT anymore.

Hi Vladimir,

I just wanted to say that you don't have to be the most knowledgeable person in the room to warrant a vote. It's okay to have a different opinion from someone you think knows more than you. Your opinion is what makes sense to you.

I should be clear that if you haven't been participating in this discussion then based on my long-defined rules you shouldn't be voting, but it's important to me that you know that you shouldn't feel like you can't be a part of the discussion unless know everything because the discussion is how many of us really learn.

Good luck with Nursing School! The world needs you!

I appreciate it! I definitely wouldn't break any rules and I wouldn't let myself vote morally if I felt I wasn't at least somewhat capable of putting in good discussion, but maybe next season I will try to follow it more closely so I can vote!

[Doctor MJ]

My goal in life is to one day watch enough of the games in a season to be able to vote in threads like this. Nursing school has been killing me lately.

If I did vote, this would be LeBron definitely for #1, but beyond that, I'd definitely have to research quite a bit. It's insane how long LeBron has been good for. This board has actually started to sway me away from picking Jordan as my automatic GOAT anymore.

Hi Vladimir,

I just wanted to say that you don't have to be the most knowledgeable person in the room to warrant a vote. It's okay to have a different opinion from someone you think knows more than you. Your opinion is what makes sense to you.

I should be clear that if you haven't been participating in this discussion then based on my long-defined rules you shouldn't be voting, but it's important to me that you know that you shouldn't feel like you can't be a part of the discussion unless know everything because the discussion is how many of us really learn.

Good luck with Nursing School! The world needs you!

I appreciate it! I definitely wouldn't break any rules and I wouldn't let myself vote morally if I felt I wasn't at least somewhat capable of putting in good discussion, but maybe next season I will try to follow it more closely so I can vote!

In the mean time consider making a thread now and then if you've got a question you want to ask folks here.