Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[OdomFan]

I’m so sick on the Jordan stans that think his reputation is untouchable and his history infallible

.

MJ's life and career is imperfect just like all people. But he won the most other than Russell and he did it the same way Russell did (basically every year he played for better part of a decade), and he did it in the modern era (at the time) while scoring the most the way that Wilt tried (and failed) to do.

Lebron can catch/pass MJ in the all time rankings. People who say he can't are haters. Lebron's career isn't done yet, and that's why all this discussion claiming victory or defeat isn't fair. But neither is comparing raw stats from the late 90s to the uber-efficient three ball era.

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

[VanWest82]

I’m so sick on the Jordan stans that think his reputation is untouchable and his history infallible

.

MJ's life and career is imperfect just like all people. But he won the most other than Russell and he did it the same way Russell did (basically every year he played for better part of a decade), and he did it in the modern era (at the time) while scoring the most the way that Wilt tried (and failed) to do.

Lebron can catch/pass MJ in the all time rankings. People who say he can't are haters. Lebron's career isn't done yet, and that's why all this discussion claiming victory or defeat isn't fair. But neither is comparing raw stats from the late 90s to the uber-efficient three ball era.

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yeah you're right, Wilt's one title in the 60s is definitely better than MJ's six in the 90s. my bad.

[AlexanderRight]

Trying to get some help is fair. But purposely squading up with the best guard and power forward in your own conference (and in Wade’s case the entire league) is just stacking the deck. How can you be the greatest player of all time in your sport when you don’t even believe in yourself or give yourself a chance to prove it by ring chasing through your entire prime? Lebron is two plays away from having two rings out of 17 years. Best we’ve ever seen in history? Lol, no.

[ReddoverKobe]

Trying to get some help is fair. But purposely squading up with the best guard and power forward in your own conference (and in Wade’s case the entire league) is just stacking the deck. How can you be the greatest player of all time in your sport when you don’t even believe in yourself or give yourself a chance to prove it by ring chasing through your entire prime? Lebron is two plays away from having two rings even after all the help he’s had. Best we’ve ever seen in history? Lol, no.

Thats a hot take skip.

[VanWest82]

.

MJ's life and career is imperfect just like all people. But he won the most other than Russell and he did it the same way Russell did (basically every year he played for better part of a decade), and he did it in the modern era (at the time) while scoring the most the way that Wilt tried (and failed) to do.

Lebron can catch/pass MJ in the all time rankings. People who say he can't are haters. Lebron's career isn't done yet, and that's why all this discussion claiming victory or defeat isn't fair. But neither is comparing raw stats from the late 90s to the uber-efficient three ball era.

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

James Harden is the Wilt of his era. Lebron is the Kareem. MJ was the Russell.

[Lukeem]

.

MJ's life and career is imperfect just like all people. But he won the most other than Russell and he did it the same way Russell did (basically every year he played for better part of a decade), and he did it in the modern era (at the time) while scoring the most the way that Wilt tried (and failed) to do.

Lebron can catch/pass MJ in the all time rankings. People who say he can't are haters. Lebron's career isn't done yet, and that's why all this discussion claiming victory or defeat isn't fair. But neither is comparing raw stats from the late 90s to the uber-efficient three ball era.

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yeah you're right, Wilt's one title in the 60s is definitely better than MJ's six in the 90s. my bad.

That’s okay by your lack of response I’m guessing you’ve just heard the same lebron and Jordan tired flawed arguments

Like trying to downplay an era despite its obvious strengths just on the basis of it being older, not realizing then you’re not arguing for GOAT you’re arguing for the greatest Name of modern era .... because the game will Always evolve indefinitely... so yes Jordan or lebron are the Gnome (s)

[Lukeem]

.

MJ's life and career is imperfect just like all people. But he won the most other than Russell and he did it the same way Russell did (basically every year he played for better part of a decade), and he did it in the modern era (at the time) while scoring the most the way that Wilt tried (and failed) to do.

Lebron can catch/pass MJ in the all time rankings. People who say he can't are haters. Lebron's career isn't done yet, and that's why all this discussion claiming victory or defeat isn't fair. But neither is comparing raw stats from the late 90s to the uber-efficient three ball era.

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

Wow what a garbage take .... centres are supposed to lead their team / the league in assists ? I never knew since wilt was the only to ever do that. Defence is also universal to position there buddy, but if centres are more commonly that leader because they can have more impact and wilt was a complete game changer at that end somehow you use that against him ? Or that it’s irrelevant.

Size helps and wilt had more. The fact that he was a better playmaker and athlete is just all the more impressive at his size.



Mj was not the Russell of his era. Russel won 11 championships in 13 years two years he didn’t win it all he lost in finals and east finals. Jordan had 9 years he failed to make finals (2 years failed to make the playoffs 3 years failed to advance past the first round)

[Lukeem]

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

James Harden is the Wilt of his era. Lebron is the Kareem. MJ was the Russell.

If James harden could lead a team like the current rockets over a team like the durrant warriors then you can mention him in the same sentence with wilt without looking like you have zero understanding of basketball history.

Lebron Kareem isn’t as bad of a comparison but as of now lebron was still the clear finals mvp unlike as Kareem won with lakers and magic started to take over. My last post covers what needs to be said about Russell and MJ. They do share the similarity of having a stacked team (for Jordan’s second three peat )

[VanWest82]

Like trying to downplay an era despite its obvious strengths just on the basis of it being older, not realizing then you’re not arguing for GOAT you’re arguing for the greatest Name of modern era .... because the game will Always evolve indefinitely... so yes Jordan or lebron are the Gnome (s)

I think you can contextualize the eras and make that part of the discussion as long as you're not resorting to hyperbole. MJ's late 90s run was a little easier due to expansion, at least in the regular season. That 72 win team is probably a 69 win team in the early 90s. Cavs/Warriors cap spike era wasn't very fair for the other 28 teams. The 60s only had 8-10 teams total. It was a completely different league back then. The 80s/90s was the first era that had money and so it attracted better talent. This current era is the no defense era because of the way bigs have been chased out of the game, etc. I do think it's fair to look at that stuff across eras to provide a broader picture. It's not just about one being older or newer than the other.

[Lukeem]

Like trying to downplay an era despite its obvious strengths just on the basis of it being older, not realizing then you’re not arguing for GOAT you’re arguing for the greatest Name of modern era .... because the game will Always evolve indefinitely... so yes Jordan or lebron are the Gnome (s)

I think you can contextualize the eras and make that part of the discussion as long as you're not resorting to hyperbole. MJ's late 90s run was a little easier due to expansion, at least in the regular season. That 72 win team is probably a 69 win team in the early 90s. Cavs/Warriors cap spike era wasn't very fair for the other 28 teams. The 60s only had 8-10 teams total. It was a completely different league back then. The 80s/90s was the first era that had money and so it attracted better talent. This current era is the no defense era because of the way bigs have been chased out of the game, etc. I do think it's fair to look at that stuff across eras to provide a broader picture.

So in 20-30 years of the nba expands to having a European division and Asian / or some other content division then lebron and Jordan are automatically disqualified from goat conversation ?

I get the tendency to accuse the modern nba of no defence but with the allowance of zone defences and lack of slow footed centres in the nba anymore it’s not factual to say “the current era is the no defence era “

[VanWest82]

Like trying to downplay an era despite its obvious strengths just on the basis of it being older, not realizing then you’re not arguing for GOAT you’re arguing for the greatest Name of modern era .... because the game will Always evolve indefinitely... so yes Jordan or lebron are the Gnome (s)

I think you can contextualize the eras and make that part of the discussion as long as you're not resorting to hyperbole. MJ's late 90s run was a little easier due to expansion, at least in the regular season. That 72 win team is probably a 69 win team in the early 90s. Cavs/Warriors cap spike era wasn't very fair for the other 28 teams. The 60s only had 8-10 teams total. It was a completely different league back then. The 80s/90s was the first era that had money and so it attracted better talent. This current era is the no defense era because of the way bigs have been chased out of the game, etc. I do think it's fair to look at that stuff across eras to provide a broader picture.

So in 20-30 years of the nba expands to having a European division and Asian / or some other content division then lebron and Jordan are automatically disqualified from goat conversation ?

I get the tendency to accuse the modern nba of no defence but with the allowance of zone defences and lack of slow footed centres in the nba anymore it’s not factual to say “the current era is the no defence era “

If the NBA undergoes a big expansion and dilutes the league then whoever wins those next couple years after will face similar criticism to MJ. You have to look at all of it, and then rank each guy against his own era and then compare taking the advantages and disadvantages of each era into account. And just because it's modern doesn't make it better/harder. If anything it's easier now in a lot of ways with all the modern advantages in training, medicine, lack of physicality, etc.

[VanWest82]

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

James Harden is the Wilt of his era. Lebron is the Kareem. MJ was the Russell.

If James harden could lead a team like the current rockets over a team like the durrant warriors then you can mention him in the same sentence with wilt without looking like you have zero understanding of basketball history.

Lebron Kareem isn’t as bad of a comparison but as of now lebron was still the clear finals mvp unlike as Kareem won with lakers and magic started to take over. My last post covers what needs to be said about Russell and MJ. They do share the similarity of having a stacked team (for Jordan’s second three peat )

Harden had the Curry/Durant Warriors, arguably the GOAT NBA team, on the ropes twice. It's too bad CP got hurt. It's not that ridiculous of a comparison though certainly Wilt > Harden at this point.

There were a lot of people arguing AD as Lakers playoffs MVP though I thought Lebron sealed the FVMP with his game 5 and 6. Lebron has been on just as stacked teams as those 96 and 97 Bulls. The 98 version wasn't stacked. It was MJ kicking ass with Tony Kukoc, and then Scottie came back for the last half but wasn't quite as good, and then he got hurt again at the end. Rodman sucked that year.

[twyzted]

Wilt was the 76ers leading scorer and rebounder and playmaker (assists) and defender (Jordan was never all of that) and wilt lead them over a better team than what Jordan’s bulls ever beat.


Quality over quantity especially when the quantity you’re using is a team accomplishment

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

Wow what a garbage take .... centres are supposed to lead their team / the league in assists ? I never knew since wilt was the only to ever do that. Defence is also universal to position there buddy, but if centres are more commonly that leader because they can have more impact and wilt was a complete game changer at that end somehow you use that against him ? Or that it’s irrelevant.

Size helps and wilt had more. The fact that he was a better playmaker and athlete is just all the more impressive at his size.



Mj was not the Russell of his era. Russel won 11 championships in 13 years two years he didn’t win it all he lost in finals and east finals. Jordan had 9 years he failed to make finals (2 years failed to make the playoffs 3 years failed to advance past the first round)

Wait wilt never lead the league in apg. He had ~80 more then oscar but oscar missed 17 games and had more apg. But wilt was ridiculous that season.
And what wilt is a better playmaker because of 1 season?
Jordan lead his team in assists
Rs 85, 89, 90,
Ps 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 96, 97.

As a rookie he lead his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg.
89 lead his team in assist, 2nd in rebs, steals, blocks and points also in per game.
Always lead points/ppg.
2-3 year scottie had more spg.
Also the years he did not lead the team in apg pippen was never more then 1 apg ahead.
Most of the years he was 2nd or at worst 3rd in rpg.

[Lukeem]

I think you can contextualize the eras and make that part of the discussion as long as you're not resorting to hyperbole. MJ's late 90s run was a little easier due to expansion, at least in the regular season. That 72 win team is probably a 69 win team in the early 90s. Cavs/Warriors cap spike era wasn't very fair for the other 28 teams. The 60s only had 8-10 teams total. It was a completely different league back then. The 80s/90s was the first era that had money and so it attracted better talent. This current era is the no defense era because of the way bigs have been chased out of the game, etc. I do think it's fair to look at that stuff across eras to provide a broader picture.

So in 20-30 years of the nba expands to having a European division and Asian / or some other content division then lebron and Jordan are automatically disqualified from goat conversation ?

I get the tendency to accuse the modern nba of no defence but with the allowance of zone defences and lack of slow footed centres in the nba anymore it’s not factual to say “the current era is the no defence era “

If the NBA undergoes a big expansion and dilutes the league then whoever wins those next couple years after will face similar criticism to MJ. You have to look at all of it, and then rank each guy against his own era and then compare taking the advantages and disadvantages of each era into account. And just because it's modern doesn't make it better/harder. If anything it's easier now in a lot of ways with all the modern advantages in training, medicine, lack of physicality, etc.

So if expansion dilutes and you’re admitting the obvious advantages of training and everything. That makes what wilt did more impressive not less. Don’t downplay the 60s which is the one era in the NBA that there was concentrated talent, 70s sees an entire new league come in and compete with nba

Wilt being as athletic as he was with the lack of training and knowledge available is nothing short of amazing

[giannis and 1]

What is it that Jordan couldn't do at 35? Complete a 3 peat and actually be deserving of FMVP?

[Kingsway_fan]

Watch on YouTube

[Ugly Duckling]

I still have Kareem ahead of him. He needs one MVP/FMVP and pass him on the scoring to pass Kareem and few more championships and MVP to pass Jordan. Now in my books he is ahead of Russell, which I know not everyone will agree on.

What's your opinion on Wilt? I had Kareem at 2 as well (based on highlights and stats), but feel like LeBron has surpassed him after this win

[Lukeem]

Yes. Wilt was better at doing things that a Center is supposed to be better than a guard at. There's this thing called leading a team to success. MJ did that better than Wilt ever did. Russell was the MJ of that era. Wilt was the stats star.

Wow what a garbage take .... centres are supposed to lead their team / the league in assists ? I never knew since wilt was the only to ever do that. Defence is also universal to position there buddy, but if centres are more commonly that leader because they can have more impact and wilt was a complete game changer at that end somehow you use that against him ? Or that it’s irrelevant.

Size helps and wilt had more. The fact that he was a better playmaker and athlete is just all the more impressive at his size.



Mj was not the Russell of his era. Russel won 11 championships in 13 years two years he didn’t win it all he lost in finals and east finals. Jordan had 9 years he failed to make finals (2 years failed to make the playoffs 3 years failed to advance past the first round)

Wait wilt never lead the league in apg. He had ~80 more then oscar but oscar missed 17 games and had more apg. But wilt was ridiculous that season.
And what wilt is a better playmaker because of 1 season?
Jordan lead his team in assists
Rs 85, 89, 90,
Ps 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 96, 97.

As a rookie he lead his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg.
89 lead his team in assist, 2nd in rebs, steals, blocks and points also in per game.
Always lead points/ppg.
2-3 year scottie had more spg.
Also the years he did not lead the team in apg pippen was never more then 1 apg ahead.
Most of the years he was 2nd or at worst 3rd in rpg.

It’s debatable who has the advantage then in assists an obvious guard loaded stat as they bring the ball up and are given more opportunities. Did Jordan ever lead, especially clearly lead his team in assists when they were champions as this is important to the Jordan narrative.

How do they compare in rebounds and blocks ?

[OdomFan]

Wow what a garbage take .... centres are supposed to lead their team / the league in assists ? I never knew since wilt was the only to ever do that. Defence is also universal to position there buddy, but if centres are more commonly that leader because they can have more impact and wilt was a complete game changer at that end somehow you use that against him ? Or that it’s irrelevant.

Size helps and wilt had more. The fact that he was a better playmaker and athlete is just all the more impressive at his size.



Mj was not the Russell of his era. Russel won 11 championships in 13 years two years he didn’t win it all he lost in finals and east finals. Jordan had 9 years he failed to make finals (2 years failed to make the playoffs 3 years failed to advance past the first round)

Wait wilt never lead the league in apg. He had ~80 more then oscar but oscar missed 17 games and had more apg. But wilt was ridiculous that season.
And what wilt is a better playmaker because of 1 season?
Jordan lead his team in assists
Rs 85, 89, 90,
Ps 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 96, 97.

As a rookie he lead his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg.
89 lead his team in assist, 2nd in rebs, steals, blocks and points also in per game.
Always lead points/ppg.
2-3 year scottie had more spg.
Also the years he did not lead the team in apg pippen was never more then 1 apg ahead.
Most of the years he was 2nd or at worst 3rd in rpg.

It’s debatable who has the advantage then in assists an obvious guard loaded stat as they bring the ball up and are given more opportunities. Did Jordan ever lead, especially clearly lead his team in assists when they were champions as this is important to the Jordan narrative.

How do they compare in rebounds and blocks ?

Wilt is better than Jordan at those things because those are the things that a Center is supposed to have over a shooting guard. This is clearly going no where.

[Lukeem]

Wait wilt never lead the league in apg. He had ~80 more then oscar but oscar missed 17 games and had more apg. But wilt was ridiculous that season.
And what wilt is a better playmaker because of 1 season?
Jordan lead his team in assists
Rs 85, 89, 90,
Ps 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 96, 97.

As a rookie he lead his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg.
89 lead his team in assist, 2nd in rebs, steals, blocks and points also in per game.
Always lead points/ppg.
2-3 year scottie had more spg.
Also the years he did not lead the team in apg pippen was never more then 1 apg ahead.
Most of the years he was 2nd or at worst 3rd in rpg.

It’s debatable who has the advantage then in assists an obvious guard loaded stat as they bring the ball up and are given more opportunities. Did Jordan ever lead, especially clearly lead his team in assists when they were champions as this is important to the Jordan narrative.

How do they compare in rebounds and blocks ?

Wilt is better than Jordan at those things because those are the things that a Center is supposed to have over a shooting guard. This is clearly going no where.

So what is Jordan clearly better than wilt at ?

To me it’s seems more like you’re using the fact that wilt was taller against wilt when it is clearly an advantage he has. Ask any player or coach or gm or any one with a brain for basketball to honestly answer and they say yes height is a good thing, just because he should be a better rebounder doesn’t mean it’s not a positive that he is possibly the best rebounder ever.

Three team stats that have the biggest correlation to winning
+/- in
Turnovers
Rebounding
And fg% efg

Wilt is completely dominate in rebounding and the other
Two are debatable although I don’t think there is much debate wilt lowered the opposing teams efficiency on offence more