The value of Wiggins

[Metallikid]

I voted other fan-neutral but that was without taking his contract into account. If this is level of play and contract it's strong negative.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

I voted other fan-neutral but that was without taking his contract into account. If this is level of play and contract it's strong negative.

majority part of a value discussion is contract. If he was a vet min player, it wouldn't even be discussion worthy.

[CS707]

Even the issue of his contract is overblown. There aren’t really any moves his contract is preventing the Warriors from making right now and every year it becomes more valuable as a trade piece which is important for a team that isn’t going to have cap space anyway for the foreseeable future.

[michaelm]

Their last 3 lottery picks were Barnes, Klay, and Udoh. I'd call it more like 1 for 3.

3 for four since 2009. Only 3 players from Barnes draft started more games. Drummond and Green were not starters year 1. A player who can start for 7 years is usually a good draft pick .

Sorry about Udoh.

Tell that to Warrior fans who were ready to ride Barnes out of town on a rail after his last playoffs with them. He played 4 years for the Warriors and the they got nothing for him in the end, I don't call that a good result.

But none of that matters, as the stockbrokers say, "past performance is no guarantee of future results." The Warrior FO has changed, who knows what they'll come up with.

Barnes problem was that he was a good small ball PF, but not as good as Draymond as same, but a mediocre SF because he is a mediocre shooter, and wanted KD money. He was gone before the horrible 2016 play-offs performance, and I have often wondered whether being frozen out particularly by Draymond contributed to that performance. He proved in his later career he is nowhere near a first option, but had been serviceable for GSW prior to 2016 including in the regular season that year.

[xdrta+]

Warrior D league players are all over the NBA. They didn't have room. Nunn in Mia was GS.

Well, they gave Marcus Derrickson a two way contract that they could have given Nunn, but hindsight is 20-20.

[Warriorfan]

Warrior D league players are all over the NBA. They didn't have room. Nunn in Mia was GS.

Well, they gave Marcus Derrickson a two way contract that they could have given Nunn, but hindsight is 20-20.

Incorrect

[michaelm]

Pre-Covid

Warriors: slight negative
Rest of League: strong negative

Post-Covid

strong negative all-around

Pre-covid money printing Warriors could afford to take on a bloated contract as:

a) even if Wiggins is actually worth 13-14/yr they could afford to eat the rest of his deal
b) Curry, Klay and Draymond's deals leave little flexibility for adding talent

This also assumes the MIN pick work outs in their favor.

If Covid means no fans for a while then the tax bill could become crippling and makes Wiggins deal just as bad for them as it would for anyone else.

This is the only argument that makes sense, although if the luxury tax makes GSW go broke it will likely be followed by the league as a whole going broke since more than a few teams will likely not be able to pay their salary bills despite not being liable for the luxury tax.

Otherwise Lacob is a venture capitalist who is venturing capital, and Wiggins‘ contract doesn’t prevent them making any other moves as a later poster said. Bottom line is whether he will be more useful to them than DLo or nothing with the pick added. In GSW circles it has been said no one apart from the Twolves was interested in DLo, who they had considerable time to evaluate and decided was not a fit for them.

[Midw35t]

The other Wiggins thread tipped me to make this thread, if only for the poll.

Obviously every team will rate their assets higher than others, but the gap in value from what I see posted is really surprising. I don’t know if it’s just a vocal minority of fans (from either side) that makes the gap, or chasm in this case, seem so big while the majority are somewhere in the middle.

You can define value however you like. Selecting whether your a Warriors fan or otherwise, in your opinion, what is Wiggins value?


If this is interesting/productive etc. I might do similar for other players/teams. Feel free to throw some names out there in comments

Edit - obviously the thread could turn into fanbase bashing. Don’t do that.

As a MN fan, I will not be surprised at all if GSWs turn him around.

He obviously oozes with talent, and this embarrassment might push him to achieving it.

I was not mad about moving on from him for Dlo, as he fits much better. But I hate the low protections agreed on before what seems to be a strong draft, and that we likely are high lottery in a wicked west.

[Vae Victus]

Ah, i was the one who started this ruckus about Wiggin's trade value and constant arguing with GSW fans on the TnT board over my trade proposal (Wiggins for Blake Griffin straight swap).

Much like most of the thread i basically considered Wiggins a massive negative all around and that they'd be lucky to do a Wiggins for Blake Griffin swap. Wiggins has 3 years left while Blake has 2, Blake can potentially be a higher impact player if he's healthy, while Wiggins is just bleh no matter the circumstances. Also they clip away Wiggins 3rd year... however after some more thought, the potential cash savings from Wiggins 3rd year could be wiped out by Griffin's larger per seasoon deal (of about 7mil), so the extra tax if GSW is on repeater penalty can be pretty gruesome. I'd prolly modify the deal to be Wiggins + Looney for Blake Griffin, to nullify the tax hit. However GSW will need to add something to balance out DET eating Lonney 10mil of salary for a player they dont need.

I feel for GSW fans, their main point of contention is that they can "fix" Wiggins over an off-season and turn him into a useful player. Whereas Blake Griffin will always be injured and thus be even more worthless due to not being able to step on the floor. I'm more confident in Blake coming back healthy and motivated compared to Wiggins learning to play the right way, but thats just my opinion.

I'm very skeptical on Wiggins changing into a useful player for GSW. He's just so set in his ways and used to dominating the ball, even last year after Steph, Klay got hurt, Wiggins is back to his natural tank commander role of chucking to his hearts delight since all the stars are injured. When Wiggins is forced to give up the rock, i dunno if he can generate ANY value off ball and he's been known to just disappear when things dont go his way.

[CS707]

Ah, i was the one who started this ruckus about Wiggin's trade value and constant arguing with GSW fans on the TnT board over my trade proposal (Wiggins for Blake Griffin straight swap).

Much like most of the thread i basically considered Wiggins a massive negative all around and that they'd be lucky to do a Wiggins for Blake Griffin swap. Wiggins has 3 years left while Blake has 2, Blake can potentially be a higher impact player if he's healthy, while Wiggins is just bleh no matter the circumstances. Also they clip away Wiggins 3rd year... however after some more thought, the potential cash savings from Wiggins 3rd year could be wiped out by Griffin's larger per seasoon deal (of about 7mil), so the extra tax if GSW is on repeater penalty can be pretty gruesome. I'd prolly modify the deal to be Wiggins + Looney for Blake Griffin, to nullify the tax hit. However GSW will need to add something to balance out DET eating Lonney 10mil of salary for a player they dont need.

I feel for GSW fans, their main point of contention is that they can "fix" Wiggins over an off-season and turn him into a useful player. Whereas Blake Griffin will always be injured and thus be even more worthless due to not being able to step on the floor. I'm more confident in Blake coming back healthy and motivated compared to Wiggins learning to play the right way, but thats just my opinion.

I'm very skeptical on Wiggins changing into a useful player for GSW. He's just so set in his ways and used to dominating the ball, even last year after Steph, Klay got hurt, Wiggins is back to his natural tank commander role of chucking to his hearts delight since all the stars are injured. When Wiggins is forced to give up the rock, i dunno if he can generate ANY value off ball and he's been known to just disappear when things dont go his way.

“Fixing” Wiggins means getting him to a point where his production is commensurate to his contract. No GSW fan expects that. We are cautiously optimistic that a change in scenery will allow him to settle into a more appropriate, albeit overpaid role. The money is a non-issue as long as ownership is willing to spend, which to this point there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

The latter part of your point is confusing as he never played with Steph and Klay. Bottom line is that while every Warrior fan would love to find a way to upgrade we are not so desperate as to consider trading him for Blake Griffin. That’s just a non-starter for several reasons not the least of which being there’s no love lost between him and the current Warrior players. It’s just not the move.

[Warriorfan]

Wiggins contract is a sunk cost to get a potential lottery pick in a good draft.

Warriors need a more efficient Wiggins with the help of Curry gravity and Thompson spacing. Entirely possible since he will be guarded by teams 3rd defender.

Warriors need team defense from him. Use his athleticism to funnell his man to a shot blocker.

When Wiggins contract is an expiring it also becomes a salary to add to a pick for a better player.

Most realgm posters in my opinion don't think like a real gm who has more resources than most teams.

Warriors will have the ability to add at least 2 max players to continue their success

Be it lottery picks, Wiggins plus pick, player acquired with TPE Looney and Drafted Player.

It's an advantage if your owner will spend in the current NBA market. LA teams and Mil will try to be like OKC and Durant.

Each title has brought about a billion in team valuation.

Most teams don't have a tv contract coming up in 2nd richest market.

Most teams will not have as many tech millionaires in the stands potentially
.
Most teams don't have 2 billion in contracted income.

The team is the centerpiece to unlock more money

If you want a model for the warriors it's the Yankees with somewhat of a cap.

If they contend they can have 150million payroll.
They worked hard to tank and avoid repeater.

[Vae Victus]

“Fixing” Wiggins means getting him to a point where his production is commensurate to his contract. No GSW fan expects that. We are cautiously optimistic that a change in scenery will allow him to settle into a more appropriate, albeit overpaid role. The money is a non-issue as long as ownership is willing to spend, which to this point there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

The latter part of your point is confusing as he never played with Steph and Klay. Bottom line is that while every Warrior fan would love to find a way to upgrade we are not so desperate as to consider trading him for Blake Griffin. That’s just a non-starter for several reasons not the least of which being there’s no love lost between him and the current Warrior players. It’s just not the move.

Of course no one reasonable expects Wiggins to be "fixed" into a max slot player. More like Wiggins improves to be like a high end role player/solid starter. Someone who people wouldnt mind paying 18-20mil a year for. Wiggins is gonna be overpaid no matter what happens, just the hope is that he'd be overpaid by less than before.

I rather doubt GSW cares about their previous battles with Blake's old Lob City Clips. I'm pretty sure as this point Blake has been humbled at this point in his life and would like nothing more than to join a team where he has a chance to get back into postseason glory. I'm 100% sure he'd eat humble pie on his knees in front of Steph/Klay/Dray if its needed for him to join.

I really think alot of folks are selling Blake short. Yea he's been banged up and injury prone, but he's been playing heavy mins as a #1 option, with literally no support from the rest of his team. No playmakers, no spacing, no finishers, i mean its just been a dreadful time for Blake in DET. Couple that with tanking, Blake has no motivation to play hard for DET and he's been milking his injury for all its worth. I'm pretty confident he'll come out next year fresh like a new man, since he literally havent played for an entire year. Blake HAS shown greatness in the past and add him to a team with so much shooting, spacing, and WILLING passing, man he's gonna efficiently rampage as a finisher and 3pt shooter as a 3rd option!!!

Wiggins... i mean... he is what he is, i'd so much rather take a chance on Blake being healthy than Wiggins improving. Also their contract situations make Blake a winner in that regard too. 1 year less and about 20ish mil in savings.

[Catchall]

He is an overpaid and inefficient player. Normally a player like that would play on a bad team that has the cap space to eat his contract--a team like the current Cavs, Knicks or Hornets. A team like that would see Wiggins as a slight negative value. However a team that is trying to compete and maximize its roster might see Wiggins as a big negative due to the opportunity cost.

[CS707]

“Fixing” Wiggins means getting him to a point where his production is commensurate to his contract. No GSW fan expects that. We are cautiously optimistic that a change in scenery will allow him to settle into a more appropriate, albeit overpaid role. The money is a non-issue as long as ownership is willing to spend, which to this point there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

The latter part of your point is confusing as he never played with Steph and Klay. Bottom line is that while every Warrior fan would love to find a way to upgrade we are not so desperate as to consider trading him for Blake Griffin. That’s just a non-starter for several reasons not the least of which being there’s no love lost between him and the current Warrior players. It’s just not the move.

Of course no one reasonable expects Wiggins to be "fixed" into a max slot player. More like Wiggins improves to be like a high end role player/solid starter. Someone who people wouldnt mind paying 18-20mil a year for. Wiggins is gonna be overpaid no matter what happens, just the hope is that he'd be overpaid by less than before.

I rather doubt GSW cares about their previous battles with Blake's old Lob City Clips. I'm pretty sure as this point Blake has been humbled at this point in his life and would like nothing more than to join a team where he has a chance to get back into postseason glory. I'm 100% sure he'd eat humble pie on his knees in front of Steph/Klay/Dray if its needed for him to join.
I really think alot of folks are selling Blake short. Yea he's been banged up and injury prone, but he's been playing heavy mins as a #1 option, with literally no support from the rest of his team. No playmakers, no spacing, no finishers, i mean its just been a dreadful time for Blake in DET. Couple that with tanking, Blake has no motivation to play hard for DET and he's been milking his injury for all its worth. I'm pretty confident he'll come out next year fresh like a new man, since he literally havent played for an entire year. Blake HAS shown greatness in the past and add him to a team with so much shooting, spacing, and WILLING passing, man he's gonna efficiently rampage as a finisher and 3pt shooter as a 3rd option!!!

Wiggins... i mean... he is what he is, i'd so much rather take a chance on Blake being healthy than Wiggins improving. Also their contract situations make Blake a winner in that regard too. 1 year less and about 20ish mil in savings.

It sounds like you’ve had this conversation already so I’m sure Warrior fans more articulate and knowledgeable than I have spelled out all the reasons we politely decline. The fit isn’t great and, as you’ve alluded to, he’s just not reliable. I’m assuming the trade you suggested included us adding other assets which really makes it a hard pass. I’m comfortable gambling on Wiggins upside and the draft if that’s the best deal to be had.

[michaelm]

“Fixing” Wiggins means getting him to a point where his production is commensurate to his contract. No GSW fan expects that. We are cautiously optimistic that a change in scenery will allow him to settle into a more appropriate, albeit overpaid role. The money is a non-issue as long as ownership is willing to spend, which to this point there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

The latter part of your point is confusing as he never played with Steph and Klay. Bottom line is that while every Warrior fan would love to find a way to upgrade we are not so desperate as to consider trading him for Blake Griffin. That’s just a non-starter for several reasons not the least of which being there’s no love lost between him and the current Warrior players. It’s just not the move.

Of course no one reasonable expects Wiggins to be "fixed" into a max slot player. More like Wiggins improves to be like a high end role player/solid starter. Someone who people wouldnt mind paying 18-20mil a year for. Wiggins is gonna be overpaid no matter what happens, just the hope is that he'd be overpaid by less than before.

I rather doubt GSW cares about their previous battles with Blake's old Lob City Clips. I'm pretty sure as this point Blake has been humbled at this point in his life and would like nothing more than to join a team where he has a chance to get back into postseason glory. I'm 100% sure he'd eat humble pie on his knees in front of Steph/Klay/Dray if its needed for him to join.

I really think alot of folks are selling Blake short. Yea he's been banged up and injury prone, but he's been playing heavy mins as a #1 option, with literally no support from the rest of his team. No playmakers, no spacing, no finishers, i mean its just been a dreadful time for Blake in DET. Couple that with tanking, Blake has no motivation to play hard for DET and he's been milking his injury for all its worth. I'm pretty confident he'll come out next year fresh like a new man, since he literally havent played for an entire year. Blake HAS shown greatness in the past and add him to a team with so much shooting, spacing, and WILLING passing, man he's gonna efficiently rampage as a finisher and 3pt shooter as a 3rd option!!!

Wiggins... i mean... he is what he is, i'd so much rather take a chance on Blake being healthy than Wiggins improving. Also their contract situations make Blake a winner in that regard too. 1 year less and about 20ish mil in savings.

There is no opportunity cost in terms of roster construction, it was literally him, DLo or nobody, plus they got a potentially quite useful first round pick. I think most in GSW circles believe they acquired him to play him not trade him. They may well be wrong, but probably had a fair amount of certainly about how useful DLo was to them and his value as a trade piece.

Sure if Covid doesn’t abate as has been said the luxury tax is a problem and they will go broke more quickly than would otherwise be the case, but that is it.

[wolves_89]

Wiggins is a $12-15M/year player who is going to make $30+M/year for the next 3 years. That by definition should rate a strong negative value.

[michaelm]

Wiggins is a $12-15M/year player who is going to make $30+M/year for the next 3 years. That by definition should rate a strong negative value.

As has been said including by GSW fans no way is he worth his contract on disclosed form, and nobody associated with GSW expects him to become worth that contract. They literally wouldn’t be able to spend that 30 million, or 12 million if that was his contract, on anybody else however. Post COVID the luxury tax involved may make his acquisition on said contract a bad idea, but it otherwise doesn’t limit GSW roster construction-wise.

[Sofia]

Ok enough time for votes. Here’s how this next step in this little experiment works.

Score of 1 for a strong negative through to a 5 for a strong positive.

GSW Fans: Score of 80 / 29 votes = 2.76, or below neutral value.

Other Fans: Score of 322 / 177 votes = 1.82, or below a slight negative.

Fair assessments?

[Sofia]

Feel free to throw how in out other players names btw. I’m prob gonna do guys like Simmons and Ingram

[winston2chainz]

Bob Myers thought he was light years ahead when he saw Wiggins thrash the sorry ass 2019-2020 Warriors squad and traded for his ridiculous contract while netting a 2021 lottery pick thinking that Wiggins was somehow salvageable.

When you're 6'7 with Jordan level athleticism but you've never been able to positively impact a basketball game for 5 years, you're just a bad player. Literally hasn't improved his game or gained a pound since joining the league, and it blows my mind that he's so bad defensively when he's 6'7 with Jordan level athleticism.

Think of everything that makes Jimmy Butler a great player, now imagine the exact opposite of that, and you've got Wiggins.

Wiggins awful contract is going to hamstring the Warriors and the Steph/ Klay/ Dray final years are going to be a 1st or 2nd round exit because the front office have never been able to find value contracts like the Nuggets, Rockets, Raptors or Heat.

But Bob 'Light Years' Myers is going to maybe draft a handful of Harrison Barnes, Klays, Draymonds in the upcoming drafts and Warriors once Steph enters his twilight years they'll be on a treadmill of mediocrity.