OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

[execoftheyear]

Recent reports by the CDC indicate otherwise regarding the effectiveness of cloth masks. Anyway, we've been down this road before and I don't want to go in circles. We'll just have to disagree.

So what is your argument exactly? Do you believe masks work or not? Obviously some materials are more effective than others but what's the point in bringing that up when we're comparing places that involve activities where masks are required to be taken off vs kept on. Cloth masks are still better than no masks if that's what you're arguing.

Watch on YouTube

Terrible video, only for children. Variables to include are time, space, viral load, amongst others His 50% efficacy could be for 30 minutes? Now double that to 1 hr, even 2 hrs, his basic explanation disintegrates. Let alone in smaller rooms. etc etc etc. Its time for other professionals to educate the doctors on statistical analysis. There are several thousand in Toronto alone who are better than them.

You're overcomplicating something so simple that's just common sense.

Watch on YouTube

anything that covers your face will obviously prevent more droplets than nothing covering your face.

[13th Man]

So what is your argument exactly? Do you believe masks work or not? Obviously some materials are more effective than others but what's the point in bringing that up when we're comparing places that involve activities where masks are required to be taken off vs kept on. Cloth masks are still better than no masks if that's what you're arguing.

Watch on YouTube

*Trimmed down the pasted portion.

I believe that the way Ontarians wear masks, which from my observation are mostly cloth. they are no better than not wearing a mask in fact in most cases even worse. Before some of you freak out and call for censorship of opinion let me justify my statement. My logic is formed via a combination of the 2 studies below plus my own observation regarding the % of cloth mask users in Ontario.

1) https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/new-cdc-study-finds-majority-of-those-infected-with-covid-19-always-wore-masks/

2) https://www.thehealthsite.com/news/covid-19-prevention-cloth-masks-may-be-effective-only-if-washed-daily-with-hot-water-772841/

3) My personal observation is at least 70% of mask wearers in Ontario utilize cloth masks and that most of these users do not wash their mask after every use in hot water with laundry detergent. If people are to wear surgical masks, they should only be worn once and disposed of. Go to any grocery store and observe for yourself, I would say that 70% is a rather conservative number.

4) There is another study (don't have the link right now)that cites the effectiveness in filtering out covid particles of cloth mask in relation to N95 and surgical. The cloth masks are basically 1/2 as effective than surgical and 1/3 effective compared to N95.

Now taking this into account and going back to point #2, I highly doubt that the public are complying to this type of stringent washing protocol. There is no official study on this but based on common sense and observation, I would think that most cloth mask wearers are re-using their mask at least once before putting into the laundry or performing a thorough wash by hand.

So when you take into account points 1, 2, 3 and 4 together there I believe that there is a relatively high risk of contamination and spread from the common mask wearer in Ontario.

[ItsDanger]

So what is your argument exactly? Do you believe masks work or not? Obviously some materials are more effective than others but what's the point in bringing that up when we're comparing places that involve activities where masks are required to be taken off vs kept on. Cloth masks are still better than no masks if that's what you're arguing.

Watch on YouTube

Terrible video, only for children. Variables to include are time, space, viral load, amongst others His 50% efficacy could be for 30 minutes? Now double that to 1 hr, even 2 hrs, his basic explanation disintegrates. Let alone in smaller rooms. etc etc etc. Its time for other professionals to educate the doctors on statistical analysis. There are several thousand in Toronto alone who are better than them.

You're overcomplicating something so simple that's just common sense.

Watch on YouTube

anything that covers your face will obviously prevent more droplets than nothing covering your face.

Its bioaerosols that you should be focusing on, not spitting, such as when we exhale. They get very small. And if this is overcomplicating things, imagine doing something that is actually complicated. Oh boy.

This is proper PPE (not practical of course):



You might be surprised by all the PPE handling requirements they have to go through as well. Everything else carries increased risk of spread. That is just the reality.

[execoftheyear]

So what is your argument exactly? Do you believe masks work or not? Obviously some materials are more effective than others but what's the point in bringing that up when we're comparing places that involve activities where masks are required to be taken off vs kept on. Cloth masks are still better than no masks if that's what you're arguing.

Watch on YouTube

*Trimmed down the pasted portion.

I believe that the way Ontarians wear masks, which from my observation are mostly cloth. they are no better than not wearing a mask in fact in most cases even worse. Before some of you freak out and call for censorship of opinion let me justify my statement. My logic is formed via a combination of the 2 studies below plus my own observation regarding the % of cloth mask users in Ontario.

1) https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/new-cdc-study-finds-majority-of-those-infected-with-covid-19-always-wore-masks/

2) https://www.thehealthsite.com/news/covid-19-prevention-cloth-masks-may-be-effective-only-if-washed-daily-with-hot-water-772841/

3) My personal observation is at least 70% of mask wearers in Ontario utilize cloth masks and that most of these users do not wash their mask after every use in hot water with laundry detergent. If people are to wear surgical masks, they should only be worn once and disposed of. Go to any grocery store and observe for yourself, I would say that 70% is a rather conservative number.

Now taking this into account and going back to point #2, I highly doubt that the public are complying to this type of stringent washing protocol. There is no official study on this but based on common sense and observation, I am sure that most cloth mask wearers are re-using their masks several times before putting into the laundry.

So when you take into account points 1, 2 and 3 together there is high risk of contamination and spread from the common mask wearer in Ontario. As a project manager, I often have to analyze at a problem by taking into account many factors to come to a logical conclusion as there are always interdependencies.

I find it amusing that most mask wearers are lecturing and talking down on anyone that has a differing point of view while they are most likely doing themselves and other people more harm than good by not making effective use of their masks.

Them putting on masks (contaminated or not) is still reducing the droplets they release around them. The individual with poor mask handling is the one putting himself/herself at risk. I think that's the most important factor you're forgetting to take into account in mask wearing. It works both ways.

[13th Man]

Them putting on masks (contaminated or not) is still reducing the droplets they release around them. The individual with poor mask handling is the one putting himself/herself at risk. I think that's the most important factor you're forgetting to take into account in mask wearing. It works both ways.

Please not that I had edited my long post to include a 4th point and removed some unnecessary commentary.

Because there appears to be a much greater chance of self contamination via improper handling and sanitation of masks, that could possibly explain point #1 where about 3/4 of the people that were infected had always worn masks.

The CDC study does not imply that masks are ineffective on its own in a vacuum but taking into account the real life factors which include improper handling and improper sanitation of the masks, I think that they are less effective than what the general public make them out to be, especially with the cloth masks.

[execoftheyear]

Terrible video, only for children. Variables to include are time, space, viral load, amongst others His 50% efficacy could be for 30 minutes? Now double that to 1 hr, even 2 hrs, his basic explanation disintegrates. Let alone in smaller rooms. etc etc etc. Its time for other professionals to educate the doctors on statistical analysis. There are several thousand in Toronto alone who are better than them.

You're overcomplicating something so simple that's just common sense.

Watch on YouTube

anything that covers your face will obviously prevent more droplets than nothing covering your face.

Its bioaerosols that you should be focusing on, not spitting, such as when we exhale. They get very small. And if this is overcomplicating things, imagine doing something that is actually complicated. Oh boy.

This is proper PPE (not practical of course):



You might be surprised by all the PPE handling requirements they have to go through as well. Everything else carries increased risk of spread. That is just the reality.

Bioaerosols typically contain less viral particles than droplets and are less stable (a well ventilated room can easily clear the air of these particles along with other factors such as humidity). I think you need to worry about bioaerosols in places where there's minimal airflow/ventilation and low humidity. In those places, mask effectiveness is obviously reduced and the only real preventative measure would be to try to avoid those types of places altogether. Droplets on the other hand are more resilient, being able to survive on surfaces for longer which is obviously why handwashing has become stressed ad nauseum.

The severity of the effects of the virus is tied to viral load (and obviously other things like your biological makeup, vitamin D levels, immune system, comorbidities, etc...). Anything that reduces the amount of potential virus particles (such as wearing a mask) you initially intake can influence whether you have a mild or asymptomatic case vs a more severe case. Having a smaller initial viral load gives your immune system a greater chance at fighting it off. So imo, although mask wearing isn't going to 100% guarantee that you won't get the virus, it can be the difference in getting a mild case vs a more severe case if you do so happen to get infected.

[execoftheyear]

Them putting on masks (contaminated or not) is still reducing the droplets they release around them. The individual with poor mask handling is the one putting himself/herself at risk. I think that's the most important factor you're forgetting to take into account in mask wearing. It works both ways.

Please not that I had edited my long post to include a 4th point and removed some unnecessary commentary.

Because there appears to be a much greater chance of self contamination via improper handling and sanitation of masks, that could possibly explain point #1 where about 3/4 of the people that were infected had always worn masks.

The CDC study does not imply that masks are ineffective on its own in a vacuum but taking into account the real life factors which include improper handling and improper sanitation of the masks, I think that they are less effective than what the general public make them out to be, especially with the cloth masks.

But that's more on the individual. You can't blame the mask for that, it just means more people need to educate themselves on how to properly handle/wear a mask to maximize it's benefits. It's like working out, someone might have terrible form and end up hurting themselves rather than making gains. In this case, do you blame the workout or the individual? You're a trainer, I'm sure you've seen people injuring themselves working out and I'm sure you've corrected their form to prevent it from happening again.

You have to remember that this is basically the first time masks have become a part of western culture. It's most likely new to many of us (the general public at least). Whereas for example, in most of Asia, it's been a part of their culture for years now.

[tanuki1031]

I wonder how many people fighting the use and efficacy of masks and social distancing are equally fine with people not washing their hands before handling your food. This isn't something that requires in-depth deliberation.

[RaptorsNorth]

Too many realgm “know it all’s” in this thread. You would swear these people have some kind medical background. Everybody that reads something on the net, their favorite conspiracy blogs or watched A couple videos on YouTube thinks they have covid 19 all figured out

Some people watch these videos on YouTube and think the government is trying to pull one over on them with covid 19 but don’t think The person getting paid to pop up on certain shows to dispute covid 19 or getting millions of views from his or her channel where he’s raking in the money from you watching his or her videos based on the proof they made up is pulling one over on you Fact is nobody really knows. Even if the government was pulling one over on us do you think these conspiracy theorist have any real receipts ? there’s always a group that wants to go against the grain and lead a group off people by telling them exactly what they want to hear. I mean isn’t that how some of these crazy cults come about. You round up a bunch of people, tell them what they want to and you have them under you control by telling them exactly what they want to hear. This how some people come up and make a living.

A lot of people are less likely to research something they already wanted to hear.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Them putting on masks (contaminated or not) is still reducing the droplets they release around them. The individual with poor mask handling is the one putting himself/herself at risk. I think that's the most important factor you're forgetting to take into account in mask wearing. It works both ways.

Please not that I had edited my long post to include a 4th point and removed some unnecessary commentary.

Because there appears to be a much greater chance of self contamination via improper handling and sanitation of masks, that could possibly explain point #1 where about 3/4 of the people that were infected had always worn masks.

The CDC study does not imply that masks are ineffective on its own in a vacuum but taking into account the real life factors which include improper handling and improper sanitation of the masks, I think that they are less effective than what the general public make them out to be, especially with the cloth masks.

But that's more on the individual. You can't blame the mask for that, it just means more people need to educate themselves on how to properly handle/wear a mask to maximize it's benefits. It's like working out, someone might have terrible form and end up hurting themselves rather than making gains. In this case, do you blame the workout or the individual? You're a trainer, I'm sure you've seen people injuring themselves working out and I'm sure you've corrected their form to prevent it from happening again.

You have to remember that this is basically the first time masks have become a part of western culture. It's most likely new to many of us (the general public at least). Whereas for example, in most of Asia, it's been a part of their culture for years now.

This is a very good point with regards to how individuals wear a mask and the lack of a unified message peppered throughout all media platforms.

BTW, I wouldn't waste anymore time with the poster you are debating with regards to masks.

he provided this as his argument for being against them: https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/ which states that the Covid-19 virus is 0.125 microns and therefore masks don't work.

He then posted this gem a page ago:

How about if the Government spent money to subsidize installation of HEPA filtration systems everywhere? Take some of the trillions from the CERB or variations of the CERB to try to mitigate the risk rather than simply avoiding the risk?

meanwhile, HEPA filtration systems state they trap particles down to a size of 0.3 microns. So by his own logic with regards to masks not working based upon the size of the virus, HEPA doesn't work in limiting the spread either.

Furthermore, he proposes taking away money from people who really need it so that his gym can stay open.

you are wasting your time with that one.

[RaptorsNorth]

This had me dying do people actually take these guys seriously ? I’m I suppose to believe these guys who made up fake drake lyrics about Drake saying chubbs “his bodyguard” is going shoot people. Chubbs is Not even his bodyguard

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Man the Toronto sun wants to be Fox News So bad Man writes about “gangsters using “Cerb money” to buy guns, then goes on a rant about rap music but gives no sources to fact check how he knows that “gangsters are using cerb money to buy guns” Only “ a unknown source” aka I made it up Leave it up to the sun to use fear mongering to convince the ignorant that they’re in the know and have information on Toronto gangsters and where the money comes from that they use to buy guns. Ohhh I wonder What Toronto gangsters do without cerb money to buy their guns smh I’m sure gangsters had no money to buy guns before cerb smh the sun is the worst newspaper in this country that just pushes fear mongering propaganda without any sources. They want to be these sleazy American media company’s so bad. Remember what I said about people telling certain people exactly what they want to hear. Do you think those people will ask for these sources ? No because they already wanted to believe this nonsense. You don’t need sources when the people that follow you already believe the propaganda you’re pushing.



Gang members are cashing taxpayer-funded CERB cheques to buy illegal handguns to protect their turf, property and drugs in the ongoing wars waged on our city streets, “according to sources”

Not according to Toronto Police investigation but “according to sources” these people write these things for pure Old heads and those that already want to hear this. I died reading this

Omg

“We have learned of dozens across the GTA who are doing this. This enables them to buy more handguns, ‘dirty weapons’ (previously used in crimes) for between $400 and $800, and new Glocks, which are reliable and have strong stopping power, for $3,000,” the source said

The increased firepower has led to more shootings as gangsters — often packing firearms with extra-capacity magazines — wreak havoc on enemies from other neighbourhoods, a source said

“You’ll have four guys in a car, all of them bringing 10 to 20 rounds, showing off their firepower against their rivals, to keep them at bay,” said the source

Random street checks by police have been curbed substantially in recent years, so gang members now freely carry their guns — sometimes in satchels draped over their shoulders — instead of hiding their firearms in the trunks of their cars or at safehouses, the source explained

Newcomers to the gang culture will shoot at rivals and couldn’t care less whether they hit an innocent bystander, whether it’s in a Walmart parking lot or on a busy downtown street, said the source

“Sources said” There’s no source dude is making that sh.. up and when there’s is no source there’s no way of fact checking anything from the “source”


If the party these guys support where in power during this time there would no support for the poor and middle class citizens of this country which means home invasions and street robberies would have sky rocket. People would be looking to jump into your window in the drop of a dime because survival by any means would kick in.

[Raptaz]

i may have posted once in this thread.

Personally its a mental thing for me, being back in the office, i cant trust where my coworkers have been or done.

I know one guy lives with other roommates who are 30 and basically said they cant even wipe their own **** literally- this doesnt comfort me at all.

office in mississauga but this guy is in the hotspot- always had a cough and runny nose prior to covid.


i only recently started going back and they were try to increase our days to 4 days a week with 4 people in the office.

HR- emailed stating working in the office is the exception, we arent also essential.

Its pretty sad when the parking lot of other big companies are full.


At this point my comfort level working around co-workers is not good versus working at home without a mask.


The exhaustion is creeping in, second time i had to go back and get my mask

[mtcan]

i may have posted once in this thread.

Personally its a mental thing for me, being back in the office, i cant trust where my coworkers have been or done.

I know one guy lives with other roommates who are 30 and basically said they cant even wipe their own **** literally- this doesnt comfort me at all.

office in mississauga but this guy is in the hotspot- always had a cough and runny nose prior to covid.


i only recently started going back and they were try to increase our days to 4 days a week with 4 people in the office.

HR- emailed stating working in the office is the exception, we arent also essential.

Its pretty sad when the parking lot of other big companies are full.


At this point my comfort level working around co-workers is not good versus working at home without a mask.


The exhaustion is creeping in, second time i had to go back and get my mask

Despite the fact that I have been leaving the house daily for work (and masking) and groceries weekly from the start of the pandemic...I still forget the mask. I was embarrassed when I forgot my mask in my car and had to be told by an employee at the grocery store yesterday.

Yes...it happens still.

[NinjaBro]

For those of you that remember SARS, do you know why it's so different this time? We've had H1N1, Mers, SARS and other respiratory viruses in the past and the world was able to contain it without too much disruption. TBH I didn't really take covid that seriously in the beginning, thought the virus would die out eventually. Now masking everywhere unless taking a walk, exercising.

[13th Man]

Them putting on masks (contaminated or not) is still reducing the droplets they release around them. The individual with poor mask handling is the one putting himself/herself at risk. I think that's the most important factor you're forgetting to take into account in mask wearing. It works both ways.

Please not that I had edited my long post to include a 4th point and removed some unnecessary commentary.

Because there appears to be a much greater chance of self contamination via improper handling and sanitation of masks, that could possibly explain point #1 where about 3/4 of the people that were infected had always worn masks.

The CDC study does not imply that masks are ineffective on its own in a vacuum but taking into account the real life factors which include improper handling and improper sanitation of the masks, I think that they are less effective than what the general public make them out to be, especially with the cloth masks.

But that's more on the individual. You can't blame the mask for that, it just means more people need to educate themselves on how to properly handle/wear a mask to maximize it's benefits. It's like working out, someone might have terrible form and end up hurting themselves rather than making gains. In this case, do you blame the workout or the individual? You're a trainer, I'm sure you've seen people injuring themselves working out and I'm sure you've corrected their form to prevent it from happening again.

You have to remember that this is basically the first time masks have become a part of western culture. It's most likely new to many of us (the general public at least). Whereas for example, in most of Asia, it's been a part of their culture for years now.

Valid point. But the truth of the matter is that North Americans are still immature, ignorant and in turn irresponsible to the proper usage of masks. As you said, people in Asia have had more experience with wearing masks so are using them much more effectively. When it comes down to it, the end result is all that matters. I don't care if Hazmat suits were available to everybody but if nobody is using them or wearing them properly, then I would deem them to be ineffective, that's the main point of my argument.

So when many people here look at studies (specifically Local_NG_Idiot), who only sees things in one silo, they can't logically process the bigger picture.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Valid point. But the truth of the matter is that North Americans are still immature, ignorant and in turn irresponsible to the proper usage of masks. As you said, people in Asia have had more experience with wearing masks so are using them much more effectively. When it comes down to it, the end result is all that matters. I don't care if Hazmat suits were available to everybody but if nobody is using them or wearing them properly, then I would deem them to be ineffective, that's the main point of my argument.

So when many people here look at studies (specifically Local_NG_Idiot), who only sees things in one silo, they can't logically process the bigger picture.

this bold part right here for anyone who's interested in known Psychological Projection

[Hero]

i may have posted once in this thread.

Personally its a mental thing for me, being back in the office, i cant trust where my coworkers have been or done.

I know one guy lives with other roommates who are 30 and basically said they cant even wipe their own **** literally- this doesnt comfort me at all.

office in mississauga but this guy is in the hotspot- always had a cough and runny nose prior to covid.


i only recently started going back and they were try to increase our days to 4 days a week with 4 people in the office.

HR- emailed stating working in the office is the exception, we arent also essential.

Its pretty sad when the parking lot of other big companies are full.


At this point my comfort level working around co-workers is not good versus working at home without a mask.


The exhaustion is creeping in, second time i had to go back and get my mask

If we're in Stage II why are you in the office if not essential?

[Caboclo]

704 cases today

Read on Twitter

[execoftheyear]

Please not that I had edited my long post to include a 4th point and removed some unnecessary commentary.

Because there appears to be a much greater chance of self contamination via improper handling and sanitation of masks, that could possibly explain point #1 where about 3/4 of the people that were infected had always worn masks.

The CDC study does not imply that masks are ineffective on its own in a vacuum but taking into account the real life factors which include improper handling and improper sanitation of the masks, I think that they are less effective than what the general public make them out to be, especially with the cloth masks.

But that's more on the individual. You can't blame the mask for that, it just means more people need to educate themselves on how to properly handle/wear a mask to maximize it's benefits. It's like working out, someone might have terrible form and end up hurting themselves rather than making gains. In this case, do you blame the workout or the individual? You're a trainer, I'm sure you've seen people injuring themselves working out and I'm sure you've corrected their form to prevent it from happening again.

You have to remember that this is basically the first time masks have become a part of western culture. It's most likely new to many of us (the general public at least). Whereas for example, in most of Asia, it's been a part of their culture for years now.

Valid point. But the truth of the matter is that North Americans are still immature, ignorant and in turn irresponsible to the proper usage of masks. As you said, people in Asia have had more experience with wearing masks so are using them much more effectively. When it comes down to it, the end result is all that matters. I don't care if Hazmat suits were available to everybody but if nobody is using them or wearing them properly, then I would deem them to be ineffective, that's the main point of my argument.

So when many people here look at studies (specifically Local_NG_Idiot), who only sees things in one silo, they can't logically process the bigger picture.

Well the pandemic hasn't ended yet, cases are starting to rise (record highs in several European countries) and there's still time for people to educate themselves on proper mask usage. It seems like you're slowly seeing that the masks themselves aren't to blame but rather it's the ignorance of not wearing one and not wearing one properly.

Again going with the whole working out analogy; if you see someone who doesn't know how to properly use the workout equipment would you be surprised if they weren't getting the results that they want? Would you blame the workout equipment or the person's lack of knowledge on how to properly use it? Wouldn't you, someone more knowledgeable in the field, correct those mistakes to help the individual see better results? The equipment isn't changing, the weights aren't changing, the workouts aren't changing, it's the individual that's changing.

If you don't educate people you'll start to see more and more people like this:

Watch on YouTube

The bigger issue is these anti-mask protests. They're deterring more and more people from wearing masks and spreading dangerous misinformation. Instead we need more and more people to encourage mask usage and to help educate each other on how to properly use one.

[Basketball_Jones]

Halloween cancelled, which makes sense. I’m starting to see, it’s really about saving people from themselves. Masks and costumes worn, packaged candy, sure. But it’s still a social thing, still people gathering, u can’t trust a high percentage of compliance here. I guess that’s the reasoning for gyms and restaurant. Lack of trust.