Off-season News

[Stillwater]

We just need a GM with a clue how to build a team that Dan will let build the team. Selling off young assets could be the right move, it all depends whether the GM and his staff are coming up with accurate projections for performance, fit, and market value. Danny Ainge is an example of a GM who's built teams multiple ways with barely a drop-off over the past 16 years. For a truly smart GM there shouldn't be one formula, one path (please spare us Hinkie).

nah Ainge anywhere besides Boston has nowhere near the same outcome besides he is a snake and he got what he deserved when the Irving trade came back and bit his arse.
I just think all gms are a dime a dozen and besides getting one cheap that hits in the lottery and then has assets to use as bait there is no chance any gm is going to do better than Altman is doing with the current roster,owner situation , cap space etc.
the last thing the Cavs need to do is get a new gm what they do need to do is draft the damn best player that is available and if its a guard shop Garland.

We could use the kind of snake that can turn broken Isaiah Thomas in to Irving, and then lose Irving and Horford suffer a major injury to Haywood and then go out and sign Kemba Walker ... and actually improve the team in the whole process.

I'm always glad to see Boston coming up short, no doubt, but I'd still rather watch a competitive team that's constantly making clever moves to improve then watch a team collect lottery tickets.

the only way to build a contender in a small market is from the bottom up in a slow grind. You wont be seeing any Lebron James walking through that door anytime soon, and the lottery luck being against the Cavs makes the temptation to wheel and deal more reasonable but moving young players that have not been given enough time to develop wont get you much in return so you then have to give up draft assets or more proven players and the returns are only going to be parallel not upgrades etc.
This org is fine and you just sound impatient . I personally would shop DG if he hasn't shown better chops despite getting in shape but I never liked the selection due to the injury being the type that lingers and comes back later etc.
My point about Ainge is he looked real smart sending us a beat down Isaiah role players and a lottery pick for Kyrie, but Kyrie leaving Boston them winning more without him and Sexton becoming a legit NBA starter is proof Altman won the trade

[JonFromVA]

nah Ainge anywhere besides Boston has nowhere near the same outcome besides he is a snake and he got what he deserved when the Irving trade came back and bit his arse.
I just think all gms are a dime a dozen and besides getting one cheap that hits in the lottery and then has assets to use as bait there is no chance any gm is going to do better than Altman is doing with the current roster,owner situation , cap space etc.
the last thing the Cavs need to do is get a new gm what they do need to do is draft the damn best player that is available and if its a guard shop Garland.

We could use the kind of snake that can turn broken Isaiah Thomas in to Irving, and then lose Irving and Horford suffer a major injury to Haywood and then go out and sign Kemba Walker ... and actually improve the team in the whole process.

I'm always glad to see Boston coming up short, no doubt, but I'd still rather watch a competitive team that's constantly making clever moves to improve then watch a team collect lottery tickets.

the only way to build a contender in a small market is from the bottom up in a slow grind. You wont be seeing any Lebron James walking through that door anytime soon, and the lottery luck being against the Cavs makes the temptation to wheel and deal more reasonable but moving young players that have not been given enough time to develop wont get you much in return so you then have to give up draft assets or more proven players and the returns are only going to be parallel not upgrades etc.
This org is fine and you just sound impatient . I personally would shop DG if he hasn't shown better chops despite getting in shape but I never liked the selection due to the injury being the type that lingers and comes back later etc.
My point about Ainge is he looked real smart sending us a beat down Isaiah role players and a lottery pick for Kyrie, but Kyrie leaving Boston them winning more without him and Sexton becoming a legit NBA starter is proof Altman won the trade

Turns out Ainge didn't have to "win the trade", he had backup plans. There's fortunately lots of ways to build a contender - you don't even need to top-5 picks.

[JonFromVA]

Due to the nature of the contracts, the luxury tax, and how a franchise player coming or going can impact a franchise, owners are rarely out altogether. If you're making a big move, the owner is getting consulted and he's retaining veto power.

I'm not see any obvious mistakes on Altman's part. I'm good with the trades he's made. The Cavs are going to need to hit on picks, manage their cap wisely, and avoid dumb signings. If they do that, they'll have an opportunity to make some good trades.

If we end up drafting Toppin, I'm open to revisiting this discussion.

Veto power isn't the problem. For instance, it's being reported that the Westbrook deal was Fertita's and Harden's choice. Dan reportedly has stepped in multiple times and made the final choice on Cavs' decisions.

Anyway, it sounds like Morey will probably take some time off and won't be available ... it's more the thought of upgrading our FO and helping Dan/family step back if/when the opportunity happens.

If you're imagining a scenario where a GM can undertake a $200M obligation on behalf of an owner by signing a single player, or trade away several years of first round picks from a midmarket team that isn't very good, or where the GM can put the owner into the luxury tax for years, and the owner is going to have no say, I'd suggest that scenario exists mostly in your imagination. Every GM is going to have to run those decisions by every owner or ownership group.

I don't think you understood what I wrote ...

[Stillwater]

We could use the kind of snake that can turn broken Isaiah Thomas in to Irving, and then lose Irving and Horford suffer a major injury to Haywood and then go out and sign Kemba Walker ... and actually improve the team in the whole process.

I'm always glad to see Boston coming up short, no doubt, but I'd still rather watch a competitive team that's constantly making clever moves to improve then watch a team collect lottery tickets.

the only way to build a contender in a small market is from the bottom up in a slow grind. You wont be seeing any Lebron James walking through that door anytime soon, and the lottery luck being against the Cavs makes the temptation to wheel and deal more reasonable but moving young players that have not been given enough time to develop wont get you much in return so you then have to give up draft assets or more proven players and the returns are only going to be parallel not upgrades etc.
This org is fine and you just sound impatient . I personally would shop DG if he hasn't shown better chops despite getting in shape but I never liked the selection due to the injury being the type that lingers and comes back later etc.
My point about Ainge is he looked real smart sending us a beat down Isaiah role players and a lottery pick for Kyrie, but Kyrie leaving Boston them winning more without him and Sexton becoming a legit NBA starter is proof Altman won the trade

Turns out Ainge didn't have to "win the trade", he had backup plans. There's fortunately lots of ways to build a contender - you don't even need to top-5 picks.

you mean like Tatum and Brown? where the hell are you going with this man.
Ainge is overrated because the Nets gave up the farm for 1 season of contention which blew up in their face and it sounds like you are hoping to do the same smh

[JonFromVA]

the only way to build a contender in a small market is from the bottom up in a slow grind. You wont be seeing any Lebron James walking through that door anytime soon, and the lottery luck being against the Cavs makes the temptation to wheel and deal more reasonable but moving young players that have not been given enough time to develop wont get you much in return so you then have to give up draft assets or more proven players and the returns are only going to be parallel not upgrades etc.
This org is fine and you just sound impatient . I personally would shop DG if he hasn't shown better chops despite getting in shape but I never liked the selection due to the injury being the type that lingers and comes back later etc.
My point about Ainge is he looked real smart sending us a beat down Isaiah role players and a lottery pick for Kyrie, but Kyrie leaving Boston them winning more without him and Sexton becoming a legit NBA starter is proof Altman won the trade

Turns out Ainge didn't have to "win the trade", he had backup plans. There's fortunately lots of ways to build a contender - you don't even need to top-5 picks.

you mean like Tatum and Brown? where the hell are you going with this man.
Ainge is overrated because the Nets gave up the farm for 1 season of contention which blew up in their face and it sounds like you are hoping to do the same smh

No, like Rozier, Smart, and Walker.

fwiw, neither Brown nor Tatum were what "people" expected Boston to do with those picks.

[Stillwater]

Turns out Ainge didn't have to "win the trade", he had backup plans. There's fortunately lots of ways to build a contender - you don't even need to top-5 picks.

you mean like Tatum and Brown? where the hell are you going with this man.
Ainge is overrated because the Nets gave up the farm for 1 season of contention which blew up in their face and it sounds like you are hoping to do the same smh

No, like Rozier, Smart, and Walker.

fwiw, neither Brown nor Tatum were what "people" expected Boston to do with those picks.

he drafted 2 of them before he traded for Irving as back up plans? lol ok man.
Kemba went there as a Kyrie replacement and it failed

[JonFromVA]

you mean like Tatum and Brown? where the hell are you going with this man.
Ainge is overrated because the Nets gave up the farm for 1 season of contention which blew up in their face and it sounds like you are hoping to do the same smh

No, like Rozier, Smart, and Walker.

fwiw, neither Brown nor Tatum were what "people" expected Boston to do with those picks.

he drafted 2 of them before he traded for Irving as back up plans? lol ok man.
Kemba went there as a Kyrie replacement and it failed

In the past 3 seasons, they went to the ECF twice without Irving, and lost in the second round with him.

You call that failure?

If so, this is probably just another topic we shouldn't waste each other's time discussing.

[Stillwater]

No, like Rozier, Smart, and Walker.

fwiw, neither Brown nor Tatum were what "people" expected Boston to do with those picks.

he drafted 2 of them before he traded for Irving as back up plans? lol ok man.
Kemba went there as a Kyrie replacement and it failed

In the past 3 seasons, they went to the ECF twice without Irving, and lost in the second round with him.

You call that failure?

If so, this is probably just another topic we shouldn't waste each other's time discussing.

Your point here proves mine he gave up a lottery pick for a player he thought was going to be the missing piece and his drafted players did better without him in fact they were better without hayward too.
His drafting skills are good his trade and fa signing history are nothing special .
I find it ironic after he got all those picks fron bkn and gave one to CLE kyrie went to bkn and left him stuck with overpaying kemba or rolling out wanamaker

[JonFromVA]

he drafted 2 of them before he traded for Irving as back up plans? lol ok man.
Kemba went there as a Kyrie replacement and it failed

In the past 3 seasons, they went to the ECF twice without Irving, and lost in the second round with him.

You call that failure?

If so, this is probably just another topic we shouldn't waste each other's time discussing.

Your point here proves mine he gave up a lottery pick for a player he thought was going to be the missing piece and his drafted players did better without him in fact they were better without hayward too.
His drafting skills are good his trade and fa signing history are nothing special .
I find it ironic after he got all those picks fron bkn and gave one to CLE kyrie went to bkn and left him stuck with overpaying kemba or rolling out wanamaker

What I don't find ironic is that Boston has been in the playoffs in 6 of the 7 years after losing the final pieces of their "big 3".

You can certainly insist that making the playoffs is a low bar, but that doesn't change the fact that it's been 23 years since we last made the playoffs without James on the roster, and I personally don't think it's a coincidence that we had competent and experienced people at GM (Embry) and coach (Fratello).

YMODV (Your Mileage Obviously Does Vary)

===================================== UMM ====================================
Maybe I'm going nuts, but I don't remember writing the thoughts below this bar. I'm
thinking our fearless moderator might have misclicked edit instead of reply.
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A big part of what Ainge did was manage his cap wisely after that Billy King robbery.

His draft picks, like everyone else, have been hit or miss. Olynyk and Rozier were both allowed to walk elsewhere, for relatively reasonable deals, after their rookie contracts ended. He's missed a lot outside of the top 10. Even the Spurs miss on picks. It's why it's important to have a lot of them.

But he had the slot for Horford, and once he signed, that team became a legitimate playoff team v. the Cavs letting them in as the 8th seed in 2015 because they wanted to play them. He had the slot for Hayward. Instead of re-signing a cashed Horford, he went out and got a younger Kemba.

A lot of the trades Ainge *won* came as a result of signing good role players to good deals and then shipping them out before they had to be re-signed. I've been most impressed with his ability to manage cap space. You don't need to have Ainge to do that, you can just mimic it.

But eventually, the clock strikes midnight on even the most opportunistic of GMs. This is the last draft the Celtics have a lottery team's pick, the last year Tatum is on a rookie deal, and Brown's extension kicks in. They've still got a pretty big hole at the 5 and Hayward would reportedly like a change of scenery. Finally, Kemba was just okay in the postseason and he's not getting any younger.

Griffin did a really good job here, but his predecessor left him the ammunition to do so. Let's see if Ainge can get the Celtics over the hump now that his war chest is bottoming out.

[Stillwater]

In the past 3 seasons, they went to the ECF twice without Irving, and lost in the second round with him.

You call that failure?

If so, this is probably just another topic we shouldn't waste each other's time discussing.

Your point here proves mine he gave up a lottery pick for a player he thought was going to be the missing piece and his drafted players did better without him in fact they were better without hayward too.
His drafting skills are good his trade and fa signing history are nothing special .
I find it ironic after he got all those picks fron bkn and gave one to CLE kyrie went to bkn and left him stuck with overpaying kemba or rolling out wanamaker

What I don't find ironic is that Boston has been in the playoffs in 6 of the 7 years after losing the final pieces of their "big 3".

You can certainly insist that making the playoffs is a low bar, but that doesn't change the fact that it's been 23 years since we last made the playoffs without James on the roster, and I personally don't think it's a coincidence that we had competent and experienced people at GM (Embry) and coach (Fratello).

YMODV (Your Mileage Obviously Does Vary)

A big part of what Ainge did was manage his cap wisely after that Billy King robbery.

His draft picks, like everyone else, have been hit or miss. Olynyk and Rozier were both allowed to walk elsewhere, for relatively reasonable deals, after their rookie contracts ended. He's missed a lot outside of the top 10. Even the Spurs miss on picks. It's why it's important to have a lot of them.

But he had the slot for Horford, and once he signed, that team became a legitimate playoff team v. the Cavs letting them in as the 8th seed in 2015 because they wanted to play them. He had the slot for Hayward. Instead of re-signing a cashed Horford, he went out and got a younger Kemba.

A lot of the trades Ainge *won* came as a result of signing good role players to good deals and then shipping them out before they had to be re-signed. I've been most impressed with his ability to manage cap space. You don't need to have Ainge to do that, you can just mimic it.

But eventually, the clock strikes midnight on even the most opportunistic of GMs. This is the last draft the Celtics have a lottery team's pick, the last year Tatum is on a rookie deal, and Brown's extension kicks in. They've still got a pretty big hole at the 5 and Hayward would reportedly like a change of scenery. Finally, Kemba was just okay in the postseason and he's not getting any younger.

Griffin did a really good job here, but his predecessor left him the ammunition to do so. Let's see if Ainge can get the Celtics over the hump now that his war chest is bottoming out.

Maybe Ainge should call up Pat Riley for some advice

[gflem]

I think this off season is going to be the most bizarre we have ever seen. Even though we have seen "the decision", Lebron coming back, the break up of Lebron and Kyrie and subsequent trade and then trade adjustment with Boston, the uncertainty with covid and fans or no fans, cap questions and teams looking to dodge tax situations I think there are going to be moves made that nobody could possibly see coming.
That said, I really hope that the team is in solid enough financial shape to take advantage of teams looking to dump salary and are aggressive in doing so in order to acquire future assets. I know it's not my money, and I wouldn't want the team to totally hamstring themselves for the long term, but looking at the Pacers alleged interest in Hayward there will almost certainly be a market for Drummond and Exum by the dl or before.
What type of players/assets should the team be reasonably looking to acquire, and what type of salary and length of contracts are acceptable? I don't think any team will offer anything for Love, but is there a TT sign and trade deal out there? I'm interested in what people are thinking on this stuff, and the rest of the off season moving forward.

[jbk1234]

I think this off season is going to be the most bizarre we have ever seen. Even though we have seen "the decision", Lebron coming back, the break up of Lebron and Kyrie and subsequent trade and then trade adjustment with Boston, the uncertainty with covid and fans or no fans, cap questions and teams looking to dodge tax situations I think there are going to be moves made that nobody could possibly see coming.
That said, I really hope that the team is in solid enough financial shape to take advantage of teams looking to dump salary and are aggressive in doing so in order to acquire future assets. I know it's not my money, and I wouldn't want the team to totally hamstring themselves for the long term, but looking at the Pacers alleged interest in Hayward there will almost certainly be a market for Drummond and Exum by the dl or before.
What type of players/assets should the team be reasonably looking to acquire, and what type of salary and length of contracts are acceptable? I don't think any team will offer anything for Love, but is there a TT sign and trade deal out there? I'm interested in what people are thinking on this stuff, and the rest of the off season moving forward.

There's a good chance that Drummond's expiring deal will be the most valuable trade asset on the roster at the deadline.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[gflem]

I think this off season is going to be the most bizarre we have ever seen. Even though we have seen "the decision", Lebron coming back, the break up of Lebron and Kyrie and subsequent trade and then trade adjustment with Boston, the uncertainty with covid and fans or no fans, cap questions and teams looking to dodge tax situations I think there are going to be moves made that nobody could possibly see coming.
That said, I really hope that the team is in solid enough financial shape to take advantage of teams looking to dump salary and are aggressive in doing so in order to acquire future assets. I know it's not my money, and I wouldn't want the team to totally hamstring themselves for the long term, but looking at the Pacers alleged interest in Hayward there will almost certainly be a market for Drummond and Exum by the dl or before.
What type of players/assets should the team be reasonably looking to acquire, and what type of salary and length of contracts are acceptable? I don't think any team will offer anything for Love, but is there a TT sign and trade deal out there? I'm interested in what people are thinking on this stuff, and the rest of the off season moving forward.

There's a good chance that Drummond's expiring deal will be the most valuable trade asset on the roster at the deadline.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Of course, based on the amount of the contract. The question is how long of a term is acceptable for the Cavs to take back with that kind of contract? I would hope they hold out for a high return, but mostly I hope they don't just let him expire, there has to be some kind of return. I know how you feel about re-signing him so I'm guessing you definitely want to see Drummond moved regardless.
Do you think once the financials are firmed up with salary cap and lux tax there will be a flurry of activity, with teams not waiting until the dl?

[jbk1234]

I think this off season is going to be the most bizarre we have ever seen. Even though we have seen "the decision", Lebron coming back, the break up of Lebron and Kyrie and subsequent trade and then trade adjustment with Boston, the uncertainty with covid and fans or no fans, cap questions and teams looking to dodge tax situations I think there are going to be moves made that nobody could possibly see coming.
That said, I really hope that the team is in solid enough financial shape to take advantage of teams looking to dump salary and are aggressive in doing so in order to acquire future assets. I know it's not my money, and I wouldn't want the team to totally hamstring themselves for the long term, but looking at the Pacers alleged interest in Hayward there will almost certainly be a market for Drummond and Exum by the dl or before.
What type of players/assets should the team be reasonably looking to acquire, and what type of salary and length of contracts are acceptable? I don't think any team will offer anything for Love, but is there a TT sign and trade deal out there? I'm interested in what people are thinking on this stuff, and the rest of the off season moving forward.

There's a good chance that Drummond's expiring deal will be the most valuable trade asset on the roster at the deadline.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Of course, based on the amount of the contract. The question is how long of a term is acceptable for the Cavs to take back with that kind of contract? I would hope they hold out for a high return, but mostly I hope they don't just let him expire, there has to be some kind of return. I know how you feel about re-signing him so I'm guessing you definitely want to see Drummond moved regardless.
Do you think once the financials are firmed up with salary cap and lux tax there will be a flurry of activity, with teams not waiting until the dl?

There's a decent chance, that if they just let him expire, they can trade the cap space in the summer of 2021 for an even better return. The problem most playoff teams have is that to trade for a guy like Drummond mid season, they're trading at least one player they don't want to trade in order make the math work in-season. But, if they're clearing that space to sign a max guy in off-season, then all of sudden those players don't look quite so essential. In the alternative, there's a chance the Cavs will be one of the few teams left with cap space after the big names have signed. They can bring in two or three good players on decent deals.

[JonFromVA]

So, it looks like Morey is going to take a POBO position with the 76'ers - so you guys can rest easy.

[jbk1234]

So, it looks like Morey is going to take a POBO position with the 76'ers - so you guys can rest easy.

We'll see how good he is now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

So, it looks like Morey is going to take a POBO position with the 76'ers - so you guys can rest easy.

dude there was never any reason for anyone to sweat it...he was never an option

[JonFromVA]

So, it looks like Morey is going to take a POBO position with the 76'ers - so you guys can rest easy.

We'll see how good he is now.

It certainly seems like a better fit for him, and he just might be able to clean up their mess with the help of analytics. For instance, Simmons+Embiid have been very effective in certain lineups, so, he could certainly choose to not break them up and instead focus on the lineups which haven't been working.

[jbk1234]

So, it looks like Morey is going to take a POBO position with the 76'ers - so you guys can rest easy.

We'll see how good he is now.

It certainly seems like a better fit for him, and he just might be able to clean up their mess with the help of analytics. For instance, Simmons+Embiid have been very effective in certain lineups, so, he could certainly choose to not break them up and instead focus on the lineups which haven't been working.

The last time he was stuck with a really large contract for a player who was good but wasn't working out, he traded it for an even worse contract for a player who wasn't as good and added picks for the privilege. Now he's sitting there with Horford, Harris, and it's not entirely clearly his two *stars* fit together. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

[JonFromVA]

We'll see how good he is now.

It certainly seems like a better fit for him, and he just might be able to clean up their mess with the help of analytics. For instance, Simmons+Embiid have been very effective in certain lineups, so, he could certainly choose to not break them up and instead focus on the lineups which haven't been working.

The last time he was stuck with a really large contract for a player who was good but wasn't working out, he traded it for an even worse contract for a player who wasn't as good and added picks for the privilege. Now he's sitting there with Horford, Harris, and it's not entirely clearly his two *stars* fit together. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Again, everyone says the trade of Paul for Westbrook wasn't being driven by Morey, but rather Harden and Fertita.

I'm not even sure they have to trade any of their starters, because Simmons-Richardson-Harris-Horford-Embiid was an effective lineup. One way to go is focus on the lineup when Embiid is resting, and the lineup when Simmons is resting, and then have swappable players to deal with injuries. Might be as simple as playing their shooters with Simmons, and using Trey Burke and Richardson with Embiid.

At least that's what a quick look at the lineup data suggests.

Of course, that alone (if it worked) would just mean they win a bunch of regular season games. Getting out of the East means solving the matchups .vs. their playoff opponents, which is a whole other level of planning.