Make a GOAT case for someone other than Jordan/LeBron/Kareem/Wilt/Russell

Nazrmohamed · Post #61 » by **Nazrmohamed** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:24 am

MJ. Magic Johnson that is. Lebron fans will argue with Jordan fans about how many finals he went to as if that argument hasn't ashtray been had when Jordan started winning his. Magic Johnson made 9 finals appearances and won 5 times. In addition he didn't need to mature for 6 yrs or however long Jordan did. He started winning big right away. And he all but saved the nba when fans were starting to leave and paved the way for Jordan to bring it to the heights it is today. Truly the greatest Laker of all time.

Lukeem · Post #62 » by **Lukeem** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:24 am

Kingsway_fan wrote:You have wilt. Tier one

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain&ved=2ahUKEwibqr7jq7_sAhXSXM0KHfjVD-gQFjADegQIBhAE&usg=AOvVaw1uWbXKmTTQXgoUOHalRTUf

Then ... the rest

Two problems with wilt being the GOAT

1) he dominated so much that people don’t give credit to how much better he was than everyone else in his era. Then they say things like it was a weak era and ignore that he beat magic and his laker teammates in the 80s with a bunch of ucla players in pick up games that Larry brown used to watch. This is like 10 years after he retired and while magic is in his prime with his super team teammates

2) people also don’t realize how amazing the Celtics actually were.

1967 team that wilt beat them with. He was essentially playing a Celtics team that would be today like

Anthony Davis
Khris Middleton
Jimmy butler
Marcus smart
Kyle Lowry

With a bench of

Steven Adams
Paul Millsap
Robert Covington
Gary Harris
Coby white

Vs

Wilt and
Dario saric
Demar Derozan
Kemba Walker
Cory Joseph

Bench of
Rhonda Hollis Jefferson
Eric paschall
Dennis smith jr
DJ Augustine
Yogi Ferrell

GoBobs · Post #63 » by **GoBobs** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:20 pm

There is only one guy besides MJ that can make an argument. Nobody in the history of basketball has done more to make teammates better than Steph Curry. Curry draws defenders away from teammates with his shooting. He also has an elite handle and passing ability. He fits with any other player and makes them better.

Steph also has a chip and a record number of wins with Thompson and Green as the next best players. If we detract from the chips won with Durant because the team was to loaded, we should do the same for lebron when he played with wade and bosh, and the one he just got with AD.

Uncle Mxy · Post #64 » by **Uncle Mxy** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:17 pm

Lalouie wrote:their stats are unassailable so why bother.

instead i'll go by legacy and choose the player who has a legacy equal to theirs,,,,,doctor j. the doctor gave the game the dunk and by doing so gave each following generation of players THEIR platform for self expression. there is no play more hilited, no play that allows the players to express themselves more than the dunk. the game since has had the doctor's watermark

Dr. J was in a league of his own for his biggest accomplishments.

Curmudgeon · Post #65 » by **Curmudgeon** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:37 pm

Magic, Oscar, Elgin
You can make a case for any of thoe three, but it falls a little short in my mind.

Kingsway_fan · Post #66 » by **Kingsway_fan** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:14 pm

Lukeem wrote:
Kingsway_fan wrote:You have wilt. Tier one

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain&ved=2ahUKEwibqr7jq7_sAhXSXM0KHfjVD-gQFjADegQIBhAE&usg=AOvVaw1uWbXKmTTQXgoUOHalRTUf

Then ... the rest

Two problems with wilt being the GOAT

1) he dominated so much that people don’t give credit to how much better he was than everyone else in his era. Then they say things like it was a weak era and ignore that he beat magic and his laker teammates in the 80s with a bunch of ucla players in pick up games that Larry brown used to watch. This is like 10 years after he retired and while magic is in his prime with his super team teammates

2) people also don’t realize how amazing the Celtics actually were.

1967 team that wilt beat them with. He was essentially playing a Celtics team that would be today like

Anthony Davis
Khris Middleton
Jimmy butler
Marcus smart
Kyle Lowry

With a bench of

Steven Adams
Paul Millsap
Robert Covington
Gary Harris
Coby white

Vs

Wilt and
Dario saric
Demar Derozan
Kemba Walker
Cory Joseph

Bench of
Rhonda Hollis Jefferson
Eric paschall
Dennis smith jr
DJ Augustine
Yogi Ferrell

Exactly... if you switch wilt and Russell during that era... wilts team wins every championship while he plays.. thats how dominant he was... still owns more NBA records than Jordan, Kobe and lebron combined.... had blocking records be counted during his reign, it was said he averaged over 10 blocks a game! Add those to his 72 NBA RECORDS...

Kingsway_fan · Post #67 » by **Kingsway_fan** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:26 pm

bmurph128 wrote:Shaq is the easiest.

Since it's a tough and odd argument to make, I'll go this route:

If he and Kobe liked each other, he would have been the best player on the only fourpete in league history.

The only thing that stopped him is that they didn't get along. Not really basketball related.

Shaq was also the most unstoppable player in his prime in NBA history IMO.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Lol laughable... wilt would destroy him with one hand... wilt could also bench press Twice Shaq's best ever...

PKABOOICU · Post #68 » by **PKABOOICU** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:34 pm

DIRK

2007 Regular season MVP with averages of 24.6/9/3.5 per game.
14x NBA all star
He's been on an all-nba in 12 of his 20 seasons, making the 1st team 4x, and 2nd team 5x, and 3rd team 3x.
1 of only 9 players ever in the 40-50-90 club
Won the NBA 3 point contest in 2006
FIBA World Championship MVP in 2002
FIBA Euro Basket MVP in 2005
2011 NBA Champion
2011 NBA Finals MVP
He played with 1 franchise his entire career; single handedly dethroning, what some say, is one of the greatest teams ever assembled led by 2nd greatest player of all time and the 3rd greatest shooting guard of all time in their primes, along with arguably a 1st ballot hall of famer power forward.
The Mavericks 2011 Finals win was perhaps the most epic 1 man onslaught in NBA History.
(He was well on his way to 2 Rings if it werent for the Referees favoring Wade)

Lukeem · Post #69 » by **Lukeem** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Kingsway_fan wrote:
Lukeem wrote:
Kingsway_fan wrote:You have wilt. Tier one

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain&ved=2ahUKEwibqr7jq7_sAhXSXM0KHfjVD-gQFjADegQIBhAE&usg=AOvVaw1uWbXKmTTQXgoUOHalRTUf

Then ... the rest

Two problems with wilt being the GOAT

1) he dominated so much that people don’t give credit to how much better he was than everyone else in his era. Then they say things like it was a weak era and ignore that he beat magic and his laker teammates in the 80s with a bunch of ucla players in pick up games that Larry brown used to watch. This is like 10 years after he retired and while magic is in his prime with his super team teammates

2) people also don’t realize how amazing the Celtics actually were.

1967 team that wilt beat them with. He was essentially playing a Celtics team that would be today like

Anthony Davis
Khris Middleton
Jimmy butler
Marcus smart
Kyle Lowry

With a bench of

Steven Adams
Paul Millsap
Robert Covington
Gary Harris
Coby white

Vs

Wilt and
Dario saric
Demar Derozan
Kemba Walker
Cory Joseph

Bench of
Rhonda Hollis Jefferson
Eric paschall
Dennis smith jr
DJ Augustine
Yogi Ferrell

Exactly... if you switch wilt and Russell during that era... wilts team wins every championship while he plays.. thats how dominant he was... still owns more NBA records than Jordan, Kobe and lebron combined.... had blocking records be counted during his reign, it was said he averaged over 10 blocks a game! Add those to his 72 NBA RECORDS...

There was a 112 game stretch that blocks were counted. During that stretch (which was during his prime) he averaged 8.8. 25 blocks in one game was the highest amount.

Seems too good to be true but when he at the end of his career when he was much heavier and less explosive Was able to block kareems sky hook twice in row. And the magic johnson Larry brown story. It’s clear he could have been that dominant

Kingsway_fan · Post #70 » by **Kingsway_fan** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:57 pm

Watch on YouTube

ATRAIN53 · Post #71 » by **ATRAIN53** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:05 pm

George Mikan - played only 7 seasons and won 5 Championships

If he didn't return for his final year, which he apparently really didn't want to but did because he was sick of hearing how the Celtics were now better than his Minny Lakers teams and he wanted to prove that wrong.....

It would have been 5 titles in 6 years of an NBA careeer
That is a record that won't ever be beat.

rzzzzz · Post #72 » by **rzzzzz** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:16 pm

DaPessimist wrote: watered-down

back when there were 8 teams. now there are 30. that means the talent used to be a lot more concentrated, not the other way around. but i got no argument about Magic. he was fabulous.

Kingsway_fan · Post #73 » by **Kingsway_fan** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:05 pm

Watch on YouTube

Kingsway_fan · Post #74 » by **Kingsway_fan** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:33 pm

norcocredo wrote:If you are being honest with no bias, Jordan, Lebron & Kareem are the only ones with an argument for GOAT.

Watch on YouTube

Post #75 » by **Kilroy** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:57 pm

I'd make an argument for Magic based partially on his stats, and how he elevated them in the post season, but also on how he played the game... He's another one of those players that will never be duplicated. The greatest passer ever and a thoroughly underrated scorer... When he needed to put up points, he could in buckets...
People say he won because of Kareem, but I'd argue he extended Kareems career maybe 5-6 years...
Those Showtime teams were some of the most beautiful teams to watch ever...
Magic was also a face of the NBA unlike any we'd seen before... He was the perfect setup man for MJ as far as establishing a market... There would likely be no 'Air Jordan' brand without 'Magic Johnson.'

Before MJ, other than Ali, Magic was the next biggest global American sports star... MJ came in and took over where Magic left off.

I'm glad to see Wilt starting to get some play in the GOAT discussion though... Kareem starting to get some respect there too... So it's all good. I wouldn't put Magic above those guys.

Dieselbound&Down · Post #76 » by **Dieselbound&Down** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:17 pm

DaPessimist wrote:Magic has an argument. 3 MVPS's and 5 Titles. You could argue that he would have more Titles and more Finals MVP's without injuries and having to face arguably the greatest team of all time (80's Celtics) in the Finals. In contrast, guys like MJ, Wilt, and Russell won their titles in watered-down era's against inferior competition.

9 Finals in 12 years. All on one team in 22+ team league with free agency and salary cap. Russell had similar run of finals but pre salary cap and FA in a smaller league. Lebron had similar run over past decade but he had to swap teams every 4 years to keep it fresh for his runs to the finals.

Able to change his game to fit the needs of his team. Examples playing center in close out finals game his first year when KAJ went down with injury and have GOAT level game in this new role. Led the fast break but could also direct half court play. Was really good playing in the post and having offense run through him giving his team multiple looks to work out of. Was fine setting up teammates and not being leading scorer but still willing/able to make the clutch shots. Became bigger scorer as KAJ declined while still putting up huge assist numbers.

Forced to retire at a relatively young age as reigning MVP which hurt his overall numbers and resume. He would have a made a stronger case if he had 4 more years to put up numbers as his peak wasn't as high as others so would have needed the longetivity to make up for that.

Dieselbound&Down · Post #77 » by **Dieselbound&Down** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:23 pm

I found Bill Simmons arguments against Will to be pretty very persuasive. I'm not a huge BS guy (his book was great, never watched/listened to him much otherwise) but he pulls together an argument that Wilt basically was not enough of a team player and lacked a killer instinct to out compete Russell. Flat track bully in short but he was so awesome physically that everyone was the flat track except Russell.

Post #78 » by **Kilroy** » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:30 am

Simmon's argument falls apart when you start looking at the head to head stats in the games Wilt played against Russell... Russell played Wilt as good as anyone but Wilt still won all the major head to head matchups... It was Russells team that 'outcompeted' Wilts teams... And after a while of beating your head against the wall, I'm sure at some point Wilt lost his motivation a little bit. Red and the Celtics had that deck stacked for basically a decade.

Metallikid · Post #79 » by **Metallikid** » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:03 am

May I present the, "Making the Case" series of videos by Clayton Crowley on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPhN8QINb_UXV5DrHjCTqyg/videos

Watch on YouTube

oldschooled · Post #80 » by **oldschooled** » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:33 am

I'll go with Shaq. Arguably the best peak in NBA history.

No one in history has faced stiffer competition in the playoffs than Shaq which magnifies his already amazing playoff accomplishments. There was a post here before that Shaq and Kobe had the toughest opponents SRS-wise in the history of the league.

Best finals/playoffs performer along with Jordan.