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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1761 » by Grodoboldo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:34 pm

PlayerUp wrote:Everything about Tyrese Haliburton for the most part was pretty solid:

15.2 PPG
50.4% FG
41.9% 3PT
5.9 RPG
6.5 APG
2.5 SPG
63.5% TS
26 PER
121.2 Offensive Rating
97.4 Defensive Rating

If he was 19, he'd be our clear pick at #4.

The 19 year olds/freshman in this draft underwhelmed and their draft stock is too high and the sophomores draft stock is too low. Specifically Kira Lewis, Devin Vassell, Kira Lewis, Aaron Nesmith.


I love Hali, I'll think he'll be a "star roleplayer" in the mold of Brogdon. I just think his ceiling is kinda limited because of his limitations in creating fir himself. So I'd definitely try to pick him if we traded back, but at #4 I'd prefer to take a little more risk and draft someone with a higher ceiling, even if with a higher bust risk.

Also, I'd really like a 2nd pick in the 1st round. Nesmith would be my preference, but depending on how things turn out, Williams, Maxey, Terri, Maledon or even Poku could be nice.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1762 » by Am2626 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:44 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Bandit King wrote:Take the best player available and trade the underperforming kids for some vets.


We don't need vets, we're not contending. If we're moving pieces, we should be looking for assets back.


I understand your point, but all teams need vets. Stockpiling young assets with no guidance is a recipe to end up like The Process era Sixers. Obviously CP3 is a HOFer, but look at the impact he had for the Thunder who weren't even supposed to sniff the playoffs.


The Bulls just aren’t there yet. This should be a developmental year. LaVine after this next year should be a vet this team can rely on. Getting good draft picks this year and next year are more important. They can then trade or look for a Vet (Ideally a star) after that. Also Boylen did a great job of destroying the value of guys like Lauri and Carter Jr. It would be nice to see their value and potential to get back to where it should be. Then they could be traded later on if it makes sense.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1763 » by The Chosen one » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:09 am

PlayerUp wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:
StunnerKO wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

Not good. I want Obi Toppin.


Yes well you're in the minority as dominating a weak conference in NCAA basketball does not mean you'll be dominate in the NBA. He's a poor mans college basketball version of Derrick Williams. In the NBA, you need players that have specific skillsets which perform well in the NBA.

Don’t care if I’m in the minority because I’m usually spot on with draft picks. Most people on here think Lavine is a negative player so people’s opinions here don’t affect the way I think. And Toppin is better than Derrick Williams. Better shooter, handle, passer, and way higher basketball IQ. Seen footage of him dominating against nba players. He going to be good. I still want Wiseman, or Edwards, or Ball. But Toppin is right there.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1764 » by Chewie » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:09 am

I have to admit....even though I have been in on Deni from the get-go and as much as I think Coby could handle the point....the more I look in on Haliburton the more I want him as a Bull. Seems like a true student of the game, looks like he could be the best passer of the draft, love his IQ, and - say what you want about that form - but the ball goes IN from deep. If we can get cute and move down a tad and still get him - great. If not, just pull the trigger and get him where we stand.
Turn down for what?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1765 » by Jcool0 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:38 am

PlayerUp wrote:Everything about Tyrese Haliburton for the most part was pretty solid:

15.2 PPG
50.4% FG
41.9% 3PT
5.9 RPG
6.5 APG
2.5 SPG
63.5% TS
26 PER
121.2 Offensive Rating
97.4 Defensive Rating

If he was 19, he'd be our clear pick at #4.

The 19 year olds/freshman in this draft underwhelmed and their draft stock is too high and the sophomores draft stock is too low. Specifically Kira Lewis, Devin Vassell, Kira Lewis, Aaron Nesmith.


Depends which Haliburton you get.

Haliburton's first 12 games:

17.7 PPG
52.6% FG
6.3 RPG
7.9 APG
2.4 TOV

Haliburton's last 10 games:

12.3 PPG
46.7% FG
5.4 RPG
4.7 APG
3.2 TOV
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1766 » by KevinPandawong » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:48 am

NBAdraft updated their mock. Deni @ 2, Wiseman @ 9 now, and Terry @ 12 is the most significant movement IMO.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1767 » by Pax for Prez » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 am

KevinPandawong wrote:NBAdraft updated their mock. Deni @ 2, Wiseman @ 9 now, and Terry @ 12 is the most significant movement IMO.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/


Wow Wiseman at 9 dropping like a rock ?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1768 » by Jvaughn » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:09 am

Pax for Prez wrote:
KevinPandawong wrote:NBAdraft updated their mock. Deni @ 2, Wiseman @ 9 now, and Terry @ 12 is the most significant movement IMO.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/


Wow Wiseman at 9 dropping like a rock ?


I don't see what would've changed to make that big of a difference. Unless he's refusing to workout for teams, I don't see him dropping past at the very worst.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1769 » by bledredwine » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:40 am

I finally watched all of the draft express videos. Here's my take, for what it's worth. I've usually been pretty good at these, but this year really seems like a crapshoot. All players have some significant weaknesses and you just can't tell who will eventually fill their hole, be it learning to shoot, acquiring that extra strength, etc.

Here's my order

1. Deni - I just think that his floor is very high and he could potentially have a decent ceiling as well. I like how versatile and smart he is. We need guys who can drive and be crafty like him, function well within a team, especially next to guys like Coby and Zach.

2. Wiseman - This dude is beautifully athletic and tall. It would be exciting to have him with Zach and Coby as a Chicago Bull. We haven't had a tall and athletic center... as far as I can remember (Ben doesn't count). He has a ton of potential and you know that he'll dominate inside with all of that physicality and dunking skill.

3. Hayes - If this guy learns to shoot, he'll be a killer. As mentioned with Deni, we need that player who is dynamic and a great passer. He looks like he won't become a star, but a very solid "Boston Celtics" type of draft prospect and starter.

I will be very pissed if these three go before we pick. If so, I hope that we pick Ball.


Players that are so enigmatic that they're kind of pissing me off (I have no idea what to think)-

Lamelo Ball - This dude is so random and flukey, and has been that way since highschool. He could have the highest star potential, and also could not even be a starter-quality player. He could be T-Mac or... well, incredibly inefficient.
Next to Coby, I think that it could be really frustrating or exciting, depending on how well he turns out. That said, we need a guy with his skill set who could create and dominate for the entire team. But will Lamelo turn out to be a bust? He's one of those very high ceiling, very high bust potential players IMO. By bust, I don't mean he doesn't belong in the NBA... I mean a player who's just not efficient enough to be helpful.

Isaac Okoro - This guy pisses me off because he's great when he chooses to be. He reminds me of what I thought of Jimmy when we drafted him. I thought Jimmy would be a star because he was a great defender, athletic, had great body control and showed flashes of brilliant moves. Okoro does this same thing. He randomly surprises with great, well-controlled shots... but he rarely does it, even more rare than Jimmy, which drives me crazy. Unlike Jimmy, whom I was convinced would be great because of these flasehes, Okoro's flashes are so rare that I can't tell if it'll ever become a part of him. But damn, do I love that defense.

I don't like Toppin. I think that he has very low potential to become a star, which is generally what I look for in each draft. He'll be solid, but is pretty much a safe pick.
LeBron has a 17.8% field goal percentage and a 12.5% 3-point percentage in clutch situations, and also made 20 of 116 game winning/tying shots in 4th/OT during his career :wink:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1770 » by PlayerUp » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:41 am

Jcool0 wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Everything about Tyrese Haliburton for the most part was pretty solid:

15.2 PPG
50.4% FG
41.9% 3PT
5.9 RPG
6.5 APG
2.5 SPG
63.5% TS
26 PER
121.2 Offensive Rating
97.4 Defensive Rating

If he was 19, he'd be our clear pick at #4.

The 19 year olds/freshman in this draft underwhelmed and their draft stock is too high and the sophomores draft stock is too low. Specifically Kira Lewis, Devin Vassell, Kira Lewis, Aaron Nesmith.


Depends which Haliburton you get.

Haliburton's first 12 games:

17.7 PPG
52.6% FG
6.3 RPG
7.9 APG
2.4 TOV

Haliburton's last 10 games:

12.3 PPG
46.7% FG
5.4 RPG
4.7 APG
3.2 TOV


Good find. Didn't see that. Bit of a concern as you want to see improvement across the season not regression but if you look at most of these prospects, they all slightly regressed.

Kira Lewis is the big exception.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1771 » by PlayerUp » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:42 am

Jvaughn wrote:
Pax for Prez wrote:
KevinPandawong wrote:NBAdraft updated their mock. Deni @ 2, Wiseman @ 9 now, and Terry @ 12 is the most significant movement IMO.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/


Wow Wiseman at 9 dropping like a rock ?


I don't see what would've changed to make that big of a difference. Unless he's refusing to workout for teams, I don't see him dropping past at the very worst.


That will never happen. NBADraft.net often does this shaking up mocks to be "different" than the other mocks and boost page clicks as what just happened above. Wiseman going outside the Top 3 is extremely unlikely.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1772 » by PlayerUp » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:44 am

Am2626 wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
We don't need vets, we're not contending. If we're moving pieces, we should be looking for assets back.


I understand your point, but all teams need vets. Stockpiling young assets with no guidance is a recipe to end up like The Process era Sixers. Obviously CP3 is a HOFer, but look at the impact he had for the Thunder who weren't even supposed to sniff the playoffs.


The Bulls just aren’t there yet. This should be a developmental year. LaVine after this next year should be a vet this team can rely on. Getting good draft picks this year and next year are more important. They can then trade or look for a Vet (Ideally a star) after that. Also Boylen did a great job of destroying the value of guys like Lauri and Carter Jr. It would be nice to see their value and potential to get back to where it should be. Then they could be traded later on if it makes sense.


With proper coaching, proper development coaching, proper front office we can now start the rebuild. Gar/Pax delayed our rebuild but we need to give AK time. We don't need vets, we need minutes for the young players and to retool our roster to add more young talent.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1773 » by PlayerUp » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:47 am



There should be no case for Deni over Wiseman. Wiseman as mentioned in this video will at least minimum be a quality role player. He has more upside than Deni. If Wiseman drops to #4, we pretty much have to take him just on pure upside and guarantee we get something out of this draft.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1774 » by PlayerUp » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:53 am

Grodoboldo wrote:I love Hali, I'll think he'll be a "star roleplayer" in the mold of Brogdon. I just think his ceiling is kinda limited because of his limitations in creating fir himself. So I'd definitely try to pick him if we traded back, but at #4 I'd prefer to take a little more risk and draft someone with a higher ceiling, even if with a higher bust risk.


We can always trade down a bit. Position ourselves and I agree taking Hali at #4 is too high.

The issue is that there isn't any clear star upside prospects in this draft and there are too many red flags with the ones which are considered high ceiling players in this draft (Ball/Hayes/Deni/Toppin). We can either go with the red flag higher ceiling prospect or go with ones who have already performed well and at the very least are projected to be serviceable role players.

Grodoboldo wrote:Also, I'd really like a 2nd pick in the 1st round. Nesmith would be my preference, but depending on how things turn out, Williams, Maxey, Terri, Maledon or even Poku could be nice.


Nesmith is an interesting prospect. Same for Terry. Shooters like that find a way to translate to the next level always find a way to make it in the NBA.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1775 » by PlayerUp » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:25 am

Here are the list of non NCAA prospects who went in the lottery since 2010.

Enes Kanter
Jonas Valanciunas
Jan Vesely
Bismack Biyombo
Dario Saric
Dante Exum
Mario Hezonja
Emmanuel Mudiay
Kristaps Porziņgis
Dragan Bender
Thon Maker (HS)
Georgios Papagiannis
Frank Ntilikina
Luka Doncic
Sekou Doumbouya

15 total prospects
1 superstar
1 potential star
Couple role players
9-10 busts

The overwhelming amount of Bulls fans want Deni or Hayes. Neither Deni or Hayes performed at high levels overseas. Against tougher competition they actually struggled. The difference between Deni/Hayes and Porzingis/Doncic is that Porzingis/Doncic were actually performing at a high level overseas against strong competition before coming to the NBA. AK himself has taken an enormous amount of international prospects in Denver and only 1 turned out to be a success. Maybe Deni and/or Hayes could turn out to be a success but they're a risk and statistically NCAA prospects turn out to have a better success rate in the NBA.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1776 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:08 am

Jvaughn wrote:
Pax for Prez wrote:
KevinPandawong wrote:NBAdraft updated their mock. Deni @ 2, Wiseman @ 9 now, and Terry @ 12 is the most significant movement IMO.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/


Wow Wiseman at 9 dropping like a rock ?


I don't see what would've changed to make that big of a difference. Unless he's refusing to workout for teams, I don't see him dropping past at the very worst.


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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1777 » by MrFortune3 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:23 am

LateNight wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
It doesn't matter what happens in training camp. You prove your worth in actual NBA games.

That said, Lauris offense is far too valuable anyway for him to lose any PT to a rookie, of all people. It's much more likely that Toppin (supposing he can actually hack it in the NBA, which is not a given) would eventually surpass Wendell in the rotation. You see... Obi can actually shoot.


You think that Donovan is going to play Obi Toppin over WCJ after having Adams in OKC. More to the point, you think Donovan is going to run Lauri and Obi on the court...together...


"Can't play Kanter Lauri / Obi"


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704173-okc-coach-billy-donovan-appears-to-say-cant-play-kanter-on-bench-vs-rockets


I can imagine Billy stroking out on the bench if Toppin and Lauri play together. :lol:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1778 » by MrFortune3 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:24 am

StunnerKO wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Good. Please take him #1.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1779 » by PaKii94 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:31 am

PlayerUp wrote:Here are the list of non NCAA prospects who went in the lottery since 2010.

Enes Kanter
Jonas Valanciunas
Jan Vesely
Bismack Biyombo
Dario Saric
Dante Exum
Mario Hezonja
Emmanuel Mudiay
Kristaps Porziņgis
Dragan Bender
Thon Maker (HS)
Georgios Papagiannis
Frank Ntilikina
Luka Doncic
Sekou Doumbouya

15 total prospects
1 superstar
1 potential star
Couple role players
9-10 busts

The overwhelming amount of Bulls fans want Deni or Hayes. Neither Deni or Hayes performed at high levels overseas. Against tougher competition they actually struggled. The difference between Deni/Hayes and Porzingis/Doncic is that Porzingis/Doncic were actually performing at a high level overseas against strong competition before coming to the NBA. AK himself has taken an enormous amount of international prospects in Denver and only 1 turned out to be a success. Maybe Deni and/or Hayes could turn out to be a success but they're a risk and statistically NCAA prospects turn out to have a better success rate in the NBA.



Good points. All of the flaws keep on making me come back to vassell. He's as close to a guaranteed elite role player prospect as you can get.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1780 » by Southpaw » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:44 am

PlayerUp wrote:Here are the list of non NCAA prospects who went in the lottery since 2010.

Enes Kanter
Jonas Valanciunas
Jan Vesely
Bismack Biyombo
Dario Saric
Dante Exum
Mario Hezonja
Emmanuel Mudiay
Kristaps Porziņgis
Dragan Bender
Thon Maker (HS)
Georgios Papagiannis
Frank Ntilikina
Luka Doncic
Sekou Doumbouya

15 total prospects
1 superstar
1 potential star
Couple role players
9-10 busts

The overwhelming amount of Bulls fans want Deni or Hayes. Neither Deni or Hayes performed at high levels overseas. Against tougher competition they actually struggled. The difference between Deni/Hayes and Porzingis/Doncic is that Porzingis/Doncic were actually performing at a high level overseas against strong competition before coming to the NBA. AK himself has taken an enormous amount of international prospects in Denver and only 1 turned out to be a success. Maybe Deni and/or Hayes could turn out to be a success but they're a risk and statistically NCAA prospects turn out to have a better success rate in the NBA.

Great post. But if AKME decides to take an international prospect with the 4th pick, I'll be pretty confident about their choice because AK know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to non-american prospects. I'm still hoping we'd end up with Wiseman.

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