Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[VanWest82]

Jordan added himself to a 55 win team, they also added along with him the best rebounder / a top defender / hall of famer and another strong role player.

You can keep saying this over and over but no one's buying it. MJ joined a .500 team. That's what they were when he came back in 95. And yes they brought in Rodman the next year who was turning 35, a giant minus on offense, and on his way out of the league. He was a far cry from HoGrant who was in his prime and had the best season of his career on that 55 win team. Rodman proved to be a nice piece in 96, and was still ok in 97, then a disaster in 98. Lets stop pretending like he was this godsend for them.

You’re pretending like Horace Grant was a godsend more than I’m pretending the guy who led the league in rebounding by a wide margin each of those three years is. Rodman also was over 1.5 offensive ws each of those three years when zone defence still wasn’t allowed so his lack of shooting couldn’t be exposed.

Bulls won 55 games led by Pippen and were contenders, next year they were above 500 before Jordan joined them.

If you want to act like that bulls team was worse than the lakers that lebron joined you’re alone on homer Jordan island there.

I never said anything about Lakers. And yes, 94 HoGrant > late 90s Rodman. (Edit: Dennis had a TOV% in the 25-28 range all three years. A lot of those offensive rebounds ended in turnovers. Even though far removed from his DPOY days, he was still a great defender and energy player when he tried. I'm not disputing that. But Grant was a good all around basketball player, and he wasn't padding his stats in 94 like Dennis did with defensive rebounds.)

[Lukeem]

You can keep saying this over and over but no one's buying it. MJ joined a .500 team. That's what they were when he came back in 95. And yes they brought in Rodman the next year who was turning 35, a giant minus on offense, and on his way out of the league. He was a far cry from HoGrant who was in his prime and had the best season of his career on that 55 win team. Rodman proved to be a nice piece in 96, and was still ok in 97, then a disaster in 98. Lets stop pretending like he was this godsend for them.

You’re pretending like Horace Grant was a godsend more than I’m pretending the guy who led the league in rebounding by a wide margin each of those three years is. Rodman also was over 1.5 offensive ws each of those three years when zone defence still wasn’t allowed so his lack of shooting couldn’t be exposed.

Bulls won 55 games led by Pippen and were contenders, next year they were above 500 before Jordan joined them.

If you want to act like that bulls team was worse than the lakers that lebron joined you’re alone on homer Jordan island there.

I never said anything about Lakers. And yes, 94 HoGrant > late 90s Rodman. (Edit: Dennis had a TOV% in the 25-28 range all three years. A lot of those offensive rebounds ended in turnovers. Even though far removed from his DPOY days, he was still a great defender and energy player when he tried. I'm not disputing that. But Grant was a good all around basketball player, and he wasn't padding his stats in 94 like Dennis did with defensive rebounds.)

What facts am I “loose with”

Why are you changing the argument that this is Horace Grant vs Dennis rodman? Which was more impactful is debatable and if you’re asking which one id rather have alongside Jordan and Pippen from 1994-1998 I’d probably choose rodman but that’s extremely subjective.

I’m stating the team Jordan joined was a lot better than the team lebron joined.

[The4thHorseman]

Stacked team his second three peat??? Team wasnt stacked just had chemistry. They started longley at center and ron harper at guard. Kukoc was the 6 man but he was overrated. le bron has never won on a team that wasnt stacked. He has played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, Ray Allen, and Anthony Davis in his career. Who has played on stacked teams?

The team wins 55 games makes it 1 game away from the east finals (lost in Seven to the Knicks when the year previous they won in six vs Knicks (with Jordan))

They add Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan and Ron Harper... Scottie Pippen is still in his prime, Toni kokuc is no longer a rookie and you think that team isn’t stacked?

I never said lebron hasn’t played on stacked teams. Heat were absolutely stacked.

The Bulls used the triangle offense which is ball movement and player involvement. Le Excuse cant play without the ball in his hands. Thats why his teams struggle when he goes to the bench or quits the team. Cleveland was also stacked. Kyrie was a #1 pick and they traded for Love who was a multiple time all star. By the way, go look at Kyrie Irvings stats during the 2016 finals. Quit acting like Le Bron carried that team. He didnt. Also Jordan retired, he didnt cry like a baby and go play for another team cause it was too tough. Also, i never saw Jordan or my guy Dirk Diggler walk off the court like a toddler before the game is over like le bron did against Miami. Poor loser

Go look at Kevin Love's stats during the 2016 Finals and tell us again about his past All-star appearances.

While you're at it, why don't you post Love's stats from that 2016 All-star game.

[Pennebaker]

I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

Here's the thing though: If he's solidified the #2 spot with a ton of people that didn't already have him at least that high, that means he's solidified the #1 spot with a ton of other people.

Either way, he's elevated his status at the top with a bunch of people.

[Lukeem]

The team wins 55 games makes it 1 game away from the east finals (lost in Seven to the Knicks when the year previous they won in six vs Knicks (with Jordan))

They add Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan and Ron Harper... Scottie Pippen is still in his prime, Toni kokuc is no longer a rookie and you think that team isn’t stacked?

I never said lebron hasn’t played on stacked teams. Heat were absolutely stacked.

The Bulls used the triangle offense which is ball movement and player involvement. Le Excuse cant play without the ball in his hands. Thats why his teams struggle when he goes to the bench or quits the team. Cleveland was also stacked. Kyrie was a #1 pick and they traded for Love who was a multiple time all star. By the way, go look at Kyrie Irvings stats during the 2016 finals. Quit acting like Le Bron carried that team. He didnt. Also Jordan retired, he didnt cry like a baby and go play for another team cause it was too tough. Also, i never saw Jordan or my guy Dirk Diggler walk off the court like a toddler before the game is over like le bron did against Miami. Poor loser

Go look at Kevin Love's stats during the 2016 Finals and tell us again about his past All-star appearances.

While you're at it, why don't you post Love's stats from that 2016 All-star game.

Or just look at how much (or little) influence they’ve had on making their teams relevant without lebron.

[VanWest82]

What facts am I “loose with”

Claiming Jordan joined a 55 win team. That's not what happened, not even close.

[Lukeem]

What facts am I “loose with”

Claiming Jordan joined a 55 win team. That's not what happened, not even close.

More specifically he was on a 57 win team. Left being replaced by Pete Myers. Then they won 55 games. Then the next year when they added Ron Harper and lost Horace Grant they were on pace to win about 45 games and he joined them. Then they also added Dennis rodman.

Is that “tight” enough

[VanWest82]

What facts am I “loose with”

Claiming Jordan joined a 55 win team. That's not what happened, not even close.

More specifically he was on a 57 win team. Left being replaced by Pete Myers. Then they won 55 games. Then the next year when they added Ron Harper and lost Horace Grant they were on pace to win about 45 games and he joined them. Then they also added Dennis rodman.

Is that “tight” enough

They won 57 as a four man group in 93, and then 55 with a solid seven man rotation in 94. Kukoc, Kerr, and Longley were pretty good players. They lost BJ along with Grant, their 2nd and 3rd best players, in 95.

I get it. You want to show Lebron > MJ. But the way you're going about it isn't all that different than me saying "Lebron left Cavs to play with AD in LA on another stacked super team." It ignores a bunch of important stuff.

[Lukeem]

Claiming Jordan joined a 55 win team. That's not what happened, not even close.

More specifically he was on a 57 win team. Left being replaced by Pete Myers. Then they won 55 games. Then the next year when they added Ron Harper and lost Horace Grant they were on pace to win about 45 games and he joined them. Then they also added Dennis rodman.

Is that “tight” enough

They won 57 as a four man group in 93, and then 55 with a solid seven man rotation in 94. Kukoc, Kerr, and Longley were pretty good players. They lost BJ along with Grant, their 2nd and 3rd best players, in 95.

I get it. You want to show Lebron > MJ. But the way you're going about it isn't all that different than me saying "Lebron left Cavs to play with AD in LA on another stacked super team." It ignores a bunch of important stuff.

I don’t think lebron is much if it all better than Jordan on the goat ratings.

I think wilt Jordan and lebron are the top 3 and it’s subjective at that point. I’m just sick of the false Jordan fan boy narratives that he’s an untouchable goat. If I had to choose an order it would be wilt... and if lebron retired today it would be tough to decide who would be next but I put a lot of weight into what he did in 2016 and this year to just squeak him by Jordan but very close in my opinion because Jordan was spectacular in his first 3 peat.

1993vs 1994 bulls
Jordan- Kokuc
Pippen - Pippen
Grant - grant
Armstrong - Armstrong
Cartwright - Cartwright
Williams - longley (1/4 of season)
Paxson - Kerr
McCray - Myers
King - king
Purdue - wennington


That is difference in 57 wins and 55 wins
A team that lost in 7 games against the Knicks and a team that won in 6.

[VanWest82]

1993vs 1994 bulls
Jordan (39)- Pippen (38)
Pippen (38) - Grant (36)
Grant (35) - Armstrong (34)
Armstrong (30) - Kerr (25)
Cartwright (20) - Meyers (25)
Williams (19) -Kukoc (24)
Paxson (17) - Longley (19 - 1/3 of the season)
McCray (16) - Cartwright (18)
King (14) - Wennington (18)
Purdue (14) - Williams (17)


That is difference in 57 wins and 55 wins
A team that lost in 7 games against the Knicks and a team that won in 6.

Fixed your list for you to show mpg so we can get a better idea of who was playing. Also, it's no secret that Pippen, Grant, and BJ all had their best years as pros in the 94 season. They all grew as players with more opportunity once MJ left, and they were in the middle of their primes so it's not fair to say Pippen = Pippen or BJ = BJ or whatever. The fact is that 94 team was a little deeper and more well rounded. 93 had top end talent with a lot of infighting and chemistry issues. If you look at SRS or the fact they won the title it's clear 93 was much better.

In any event, it definitely isn't 57 - 55 = 2 wins added for MJ. Surely you don't actually think that.

[giannis and 1]

What is it that Jordan couldn't do at 35? Complete a 3 peat and actually be deserving of FMVP?

Are you implying that LeBron didn't deserve finals MVP. what a bad take.

If AD deserved anything it's DPOY which is ironic from your username.

That's cute that you think that. And let me guess... you think Lebron deserves MVP too?

[twyzted]

What is it that Jordan couldn't do at 35? Complete a 3 peat and actually be deserving of FMVP?

Are you implying that LeBron didn't deserve finals MVP. what a bad take.

If AD deserved anything it's DPOY which is ironic from your username.

That's cute that you think that. And let me guess... you think Lebron deserves MVP too?

Ohh Lebron has basicly been robbed of the mvp and fmvps since 12 when did not win those. Plus atleast 1 dpoy if not more.

[giannis and 1]

Are you implying that LeBron didn't deserve finals MVP. what a bad take.

If AD deserved anything it's DPOY which is ironic from your username.

That's cute that you think that. And let me guess... you think Lebron deserves MVP too?

Ohh Lebron has basicly been robbed of the mvp and fmvps since 12 when did not win those. Plus atleast 1 dpoy if not more.

Such a joke that the "media narrative" caused Lebron to only get 16 votes when Giannis just had the best PER in NBA history, was the best defensive player, averaged 29.5/13.6/5.6 in 30 mins on the season, and his team had the best record.

[Lukeem]

1993vs 1994 bulls
Jordan (39)- Pippen (38)
Pippen (38) - Grant (36)
Grant (35) - Armstrong (34)
Armstrong (30) - Kerr (25)
Cartwright (20) - Meyers (25)
Williams (19) -Kukoc (24)
Paxson (17) - Longley (19 - 1/3 of the season)
McCray (16) - Cartwright (18)
King (14) - Wennington (18)
Purdue (14) - Williams (17)


That is difference in 57 wins and 55 wins
A team that lost in 7 games against the Knicks and a team that won in 6.

Fixed your list for you to show mpg so we can get a better idea of who was playing. Also, it's no secret that Pippen, Grant, and BJ all had their best years as pros in the 94 season. They all grew as players with more opportunity once MJ left, and they were in the middle of their primes so it's not fair to say Pippen = Pippen or BJ = BJ or whatever. The fact is that 94 team was a little deeper and more well rounded. 93 had top end talent with a lot of infighting and chemistry issues. If you look at SRS or the fact they won the title it's clear 93 was much better.

In any event, it definitely isn't 57 - 55 = 2 wins added for MJ. Surely you don't actually think that.

You didn’t “fix my list “ you added mins which doesn’t really do much when you move some one like Cartwright a couple spots down because he has 2 less mins.

I don’t have to think it’s a 2 win difference. That is a fact. I think that Jordan is worth more than 2 wins. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that Pippen and grant had a career years with amazing efficiency after Jordan left. I think that’s very telling

[VanWest82]

You didn’t “fix my list “ you added mins which doesn’t really do much when you move some one like Cartwright a couple spots down because he has 2 less mins.

I don’t have to think it’s a 2 win difference. That is a fact. I think that Jordan is worth more than 2 wins. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that Pippen and grant had a career years with amazing efficiency after Jordan left. I think that’s very telling

It was more than just less time for Cartwright but it also wasn't an accident that Bulls went on that late 16-3 run in Mar-Apr after trading for Longley. Longley, Meyers, Kerr, and Kukoc were good spacers and ball movers. Playing BJ more helped too. They were a big upgrade over Williams, Paxson, and McCray who was out of the league the following year. Playing more line ups that had five good players is what led to increased efficiency.

[Lukeem]

You didn’t “fix my list “ you added mins which doesn’t really do much when you move some one like Cartwright a couple spots down because he has 2 less mins.

I don’t have to think it’s a 2 win difference. That is a fact. I think that Jordan is worth more than 2 wins. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that Pippen and grant had a career years with amazing efficiency after Jordan left. I think that’s very telling

It was more than just less time for Cartwright but it also wasn't an accident that Bulls went on that late 16-3 run in Mar-Apr after trading for Longley. Longley, Meyers, Kerr, and Kukoc were good spacers and ball movers. Playing BJ more helped too. They were a big upgrade over Williams, Paxson, and McCray who was out of the league the following year. Playing more line ups that had five good players is what led to increased efficiency.

Okay you win

Longley
Meyers
Kerr and
Kukoc

Are awesome and
Are pretty close to

Jordan
King / Williams
Paxson
McCray

[Lukeem]

You didn’t “fix my list “ you added mins which doesn’t really do much when you move some one like Cartwright a couple spots down because he has 2 less mins.

I don’t have to think it’s a 2 win difference. That is a fact. I think that Jordan is worth more than 2 wins. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that Pippen and grant had a career years with amazing efficiency after Jordan left. I think that’s very telling

It was more than just less time for Cartwright but it also wasn't an accident that Bulls went on that late 16-3 run in Mar-Apr after trading for Longley. Longley, Meyers, Kerr, and Kukoc were good spacers and ball movers. Playing BJ more helped too. They were a big upgrade over Williams, Paxson, and McCray who was out of the league the following year. Playing more line ups that had five good players is what led to increased efficiency.

Sure most have been nice for Jordan to join such a great team with Ron Harper replacing bj Armstrong and shortly after rodman replacing Horace Grant

[SeniorWalker]

I watched scottie pippen throughout the 90s, since I lived in Chicago. I have never seen a player's historical stock go up as much I have his in the last few years.

Scottie was a great player, one of the best perimeter defenders and a great playmaker. But anyone who actually watched him knows he was nowhere near a top 5 player at any point in his career. Top 10 maybe, but that's maybe his peak and not his average level through his career.

This dude was not even on the same planet as a guy like Wade or Davis during his prime but ive seen a good number of posts claim that he was. Peak wade was very close to LeBron as an overall player in the late 2000s and 2011 wade was not far off that. 2020 davis was very much on the same level as LeBron himself, even though lebron was perhaps more important..

Its pretty clear who watched basketball before the 2000s and who didnt.

[KyRo23]

What is it that Jordan couldn't do at 35? Complete a 3 peat and actually be deserving of FMVP?

Are you implying that LeBron didn't deserve finals MVP. what a bad take.

If AD deserved anything it's DPOY which is ironic from your username.

That's cute that you think that. And let me guess... you think Lebron deserves MVP too?

No, I don't think he should have won the regular season MVP. Now that we have that out of the way... want to address my point instead of sidestepping it?

[giannis and 1]

Are you implying that LeBron didn't deserve finals MVP. what a bad take.

If AD deserved anything it's DPOY which is ironic from your username.

That's cute that you think that. And let me guess... you think Lebron deserves MVP too?

No, I don't think he should have won the regular season MVP. Now that we have that out of the way... want to address my point instead of sidestepping it?

Address your point? Yes I am implying that Lebron didn't deserve Finals MVP. AD was their lynchpin on defense, and about equal offensively, making key shots.