Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[tiderulz]

any Harden trade will include established young star ( Ingram, Brown, Adebayo, Sabonis, Mitchell...) and army of draft picks.
it doesn't matter how Harden sometimes looks in playoffs, that guy is one man offense and in right system is leathal. No brainer top 5-7 player in whole league.

All of the guys in that list are loved by their current organizations. I suspect that Sabonis is the only one in that bunch whose current team would want to give up in exchange for Harden.

Harden is past his prime, a notoriously terrible defender, and a difficult player to coach. I think his value is closer to where Westbrook was when he was traded for CP3.

Harden is past his prime? what?
His current 34,5 ppg ranks him as 15 greatest single season points per game accomplishment and only 7 players ( including Harden) achived that in whole nba history.

This "past his prime" just because somebody turned 30 is no longer truth. If you look around the world, with improved medicine atlhets flat out last way longer than they used to , and more often than not, their prime is their early 30s.

Just look at list of greates current athletes:
Lebron 35, Durant 32, Curry 32, Harden 31, Messi 33, Ronaldo 35, Nadal 34, Serena Williams peaking in mid 30s, Stipe Miocic 38, Comier 41 and list goes on and on.

Harden NEVER had any serious injury, for last 8 years he never even missed more than 14 regular season games.

Westbrook and Harden don't even belong in same universe when it comes to baketball value. This is really laughable debate to even entertain, Westbrook's real plus minus this year is +1,5, Harden's is +9,6.
Westbrook's TS% for career is 53% ( 3% below league average) , Harden is 61%, with makes him one ( if not only) non C in whole damn NBA who is doing for whole lenght of his career. Guy is lethal. You might not like his " points or free throws" offense but it's definition of great possession, where player almost always gets what he wants.

Main reason why Harden never played in nba finals is fact that for whole lenght of his Houston career other teams were breaking parity with superteams on west like Curry, Klay, Durant, Green or now Davis and Lebron. While he never had teammate better than aiging Chris Paul ( who just happend to miss game 7 of WCF in 2018, when Houston ended up being only team that even challenged Warriors ).

Any GM knows Harden is woth your whole team. On East he is so much better than any other player ( including Giannis) that it's not even worth debating. Where Giannis is better all around player because of his defense, Giannis also can't be trusted with a ball in last min as he can't shoot FTs and can't shoot in general. Where Harden will blow up some defensive assigments but there is nobody you would want, on East ( maybe outside now Durant) to set last few offensive plays. Guy shoots 35,5% for 3 while having 4% of threes assisted. Magic players can't even hit 35% of wide open 3s.

ok. Lebron is just a genetic freak of nature. Durant has height with negates a lot of negatives. Curry doesnt rely on athleticism. And cmon, you are throwing in men/women's tennis? And no, Serena isnt peaking right now, her peak was years ago when she was dominating the sport, something she isnt doing now. And Cormier? really? he lost his last 2 fights to a 38 yr old. big reach on adding him.

I agree Harden isnt PAST his prime right now, but he is in his prime and nearing the end of it. He likely can still pay at his high level for a few more years yes.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

A few interesting quotes from Athletic piece regarding the upcoming season.

"Some of the bigger teams that feel like they’re really close, the big-budget teams, they’re going to go for it."
"And then you’re going to have other teams in no-man’s land that have every reason now to kind of take a step backward"
SCREAMS ORLANDO MAGIC with the no man's land.

Also mentioned that teams will likely shy away from 2 way contracts and would rather pay a vet 1 year deal and keep the roster as small as possible.

Who is the most intriguing 2020 NBA Draft prospect?
LaMelo Ball

• “That could go really good or really bad.”

• “I think he has such a high ceiling but the difference from his top to bottom is the biggest of anyone in the draft.”

• “With everything considered, the route he took, I just think he’s a guy who people are all over the place on. He fits the bill as much as anybody ever.”

• “I think in this draft, every team is totally unsure of how good these top seven or eight guys are going to be. I’ve never heard, and they’re not going to say this, less enthusiasm for teams that have high picks.”

Killian Hayes, Obi Toppin, Devin Vassell, Patrick Williams

• “I think Devin Vassell is probably a guy (who’s intriguing). I don’t know why Isaac Okoro is ahead of him. To me, Devin Vassell should be the No. 1 guy at his position in this draft.”

• “The kid I’ve been in love with is Obi Toppin. You want to talk about a kid who checks every box for teams. He might fall a bit because of his age.”

• “Underwhelming at Florida State, but (Williams) has tools that are interesting. Could be a total flop, but … I wouldn’t want a top-five pick this year. No sure things.”

Deni Avdija, Anthony Edwards, Aleksej Pokuševski, James Wiseman

• (Edwards) “Super talented, athletic. Dynamic scorer. Alpha competitor. If he can keep his nose clean and stay around the right people, and if his agent can get him to understand that this is more than a game, great. If not, he’s in trouble. Some agents are afraid of their clients and don’t lead the way. There’s a history of players who didn’t reach their potential because they lacked guidance. If Edwards doesn’t have that guidance, he’ll be a memory before he should be a memory.”

• “I think it’s (Wiseman), by far. Because I think he has a chance to be a version of what Bam is right now. And I think if you look at Bam, you see a guy that is the prototypical, I wouldn’t say post player, but prototypical big guy that teams are going to go out and try to create. The way Draymond Green changed things for Golden State, everyone tried to find a 6-7, 6-8 tweener guy that could cover perimeter players and post players with success. I think that’s what teams are going to try to do when they find the next version of Bam and I think the kid from Memphis is that. He’s just a little bit bigger and a little bit more athletic.”

Among general managers or front-office leaders, who do you: Trust the most?

Jeff Weltman (Magic) “(Weltman has) never given me any reason not to trust him and it seems he’s always told me the truth.”

[jezzerinho]

I'm not sure being a guy that always shoots straight is a quality that's going to mark a GM positively for his team. For the GM personally, sure. But most teams would like more of a wheeler dealer than a scrupulous gent in charge of FA.

[Catledge]

All of the guys in that list are loved by their current organizations. I suspect that Sabonis is the only one in that bunch whose current team would want to give up in exchange for Harden.

Harden is past his prime, a notoriously terrible defender, and a difficult player to coach. I think his value is closer to where Westbrook was when he was traded for CP3.

Harden is past his prime? what?
His current 34,5 ppg ranks him as 15 greatest single season points per game accomplishment and only 7 players ( including Harden) achived that in whole nba history.

This "past his prime" just because somebody turned 30 is no longer truth. If you look around the world, with improved medicine atlhets flat out last way longer than they used to , and more often than not, their prime is their early 30s.

Just look at list of greates current athletes:
Lebron 35, Durant 32, Curry 32, Harden 31, Messi 33, Ronaldo 35, Nadal 34, Serena Williams peaking in mid 30s, Stipe Miocic 38, Comier 41 and list goes on and on.

Harden NEVER had any serious injury, for last 8 years he never even missed more than 14 regular season games.

Westbrook and Harden don't even belong in same universe when it comes to baketball value. This is really laughable debate to even entertain, Westbrook's real plus minus this year is +1,5, Harden's is +9,6.
Westbrook's TS% for career is 53% ( 3% below league average) , Harden is 61%, with makes him one ( if not only) non C in whole damn NBA who is doing for whole lenght of his career. Guy is lethal. You might not like his " points or free throws" offense but it's definition of great possession, where player almost always gets what he wants.

Main reason why Harden never played in nba finals is fact that for whole lenght of his Houston career other teams were breaking parity with superteams on west like Curry, Klay, Durant, Green or now Davis and Lebron. While he never had teammate better than aiging Chris Paul ( who just happend to miss game 7 of WCF in 2018, when Houston ended up being only team that even challenged Warriors ).

Any GM knows Harden is woth your whole team. On East he is so much better than any other player ( including Giannis) that it's not even worth debating. Where Giannis is better all around player because of his defense, Giannis also can't be trusted with a ball in last min as he can't shoot FTs and can't shoot in general. Where Harden will blow up some defensive assigments but there is nobody you would want, on East ( maybe outside now Durant) to set last few offensive plays. Guy shoots 35,5% for 3 while having 4% of threes assisted. Magic players can't even hit 35% of wide open 3s.

ok. Lebron is just a genetic freak of nature. Durant has height with negates a lot of negatives. Curry doesnt rely on athleticism. And cmon, you are throwing in men/women's tennis? And no, Serena isnt peaking right now, her peak was years ago when she was dominating the sport, something she isnt doing now. And Cormier? really? he lost his last 2 fights to a 38 yr old. big reach on adding him.

I agree Harden isnt PAST his prime right now, but he is in his prime and nearing the end of it. He likely can still pay at his high level for a few more years yes.

Westbrook led the league in assists the two years before he was traded and averaged triple-doubles each of the three years before he was traded, and at age 30 he was two years removed from winning the league MVP award. He ended up being traded for an older player (not a young superstar) on an insane contract and a couple of picks that are not very likely to be good. That is the standard value of over-30 players on max deals.

Any team that gives up everything to get Harden is likely to have one or two years of a star surrounded by no talent, followed by a complete rebuild. Think of the Knicks trading for Melo and having nothing to put around him, except that whoever trades for Harden will get a much older player than the Knicks got. Harden, in fact, is already older than Carmelo was after his last year of star-level production.

[UnFadeable21]

MagicMatic serving noobs and teaching them to learn the game.

Fry cry for tanking and rebuild via draft, with lottery changes that do not reward worst teams any more, incomming inflaction of highschool kids on board that will result (once again) with way more busts in lottery and players jumping ships and deciding where they want to go after 4-5 years makes drafting as "strategy" as much of a strategy as finding wife by clicking on "hot moms in your area".

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

Duncan and Hollinger Monday podcast has a pretty interesting tidbit about the Magic and their cap situation in their most recent podcast at the 1:13:00 mark.

Some tidbits of the segment:

- They say Orlando is in a average cap and average team situation and it could be a wise choice to trade Gordon, get rid of Fournier or let him opt in one year and shoot for the moon in 2021 and be a cap space free agent player when Isaac is back.

- They are stuck in the middle and “getting crushed” in the first round is their ceiling or they could restart new roster and team trajectory with moves this offseason. Hard choice for a mid market team.

-Vuc is there best player but his contract is huge and he’s also most valuable to Orlando’s current success.

[tiderulz]

MagicMatic serving noobs and teaching them to learn the game.

Fry cry for tanking and rebuild via draft, with lottery changes that do not reward worst teams any more, incomming inflaction of highschool kids on board that will result (once again) with way more busts in lottery and players jumping ships and deciding where they want to go after 4-5 years makes drafting as "strategy" as much of a strategy as finding wife by clicking on "hot moms in your area".

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

Duncan and Hollinger Monday podcast has a pretty interesting tidbit about the Magic and their cap situation in their most recent podcast at the 1:13:00 mark.

Some tidbits of the segment:

- They say Orlando is in a average cap and average team situation and it could be a wise choice to trade Gordon, get rid of Fournier or let him opt in one year and shoot for the moon in 2021 and be a cap space free agent player when Isaac is back.

- They are stuck in the middle and “getting crushed” in the first round is their ceiling or they could restart new roster and team trajectory with moves this offseason. Hard choice for a mid market team.

-Vuc is there best player but his contract is huge and he’s also most valuable to Orlando’s current success.

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

[UnFadeable21]

Fry cry for tanking and rebuild via draft, with lottery changes that do not reward worst teams any more, incomming inflaction of highschool kids on board that will result (once again) with way more busts in lottery and players jumping ships and deciding where they want to go after 4-5 years makes drafting as "strategy" as much of a strategy as finding wife by clicking on "hot moms in your area".

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

Duncan and Hollinger Monday podcast has a pretty interesting tidbit about the Magic and their cap situation in their most recent podcast at the 1:13:00 mark.

Some tidbits of the segment:

- They say Orlando is in a average cap and average team situation and it could be a wise choice to trade Gordon, get rid of Fournier or let him opt in one year and shoot for the moon in 2021 and be a cap space free agent player when Isaac is back.

- They are stuck in the middle and “getting crushed” in the first round is their ceiling or they could restart new roster and team trajectory with moves this offseason. Hard choice for a mid market team.

-Vuc is there best player but his contract is huge and he’s also most valuable to Orlando’s current success.

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

They said it’s huge because he’s a center in todays modern space and pace game.

I like Big’s and wish teams did more post ups but I’m a 90’s basketball fan when the power forwards and centers ruled the league.

[tiderulz]

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

They said it’s huge because he’s a center in todays modern space and pace game.

I like Big’s and wish teams did more post ups but I’m a 90’s basketball fan when the power forwards and centers ruled the league.

ok, but unlike say Drummond, Gobert, Valuncianas, etc, he has 3 pt range. so he isnt a detriment on offense and helps create space. Im not saying he is cheap, but i dont view it as huge, and it also decreases every year

[Bensational]

SVG signed with the Pels! I am actually really happy with that partnership. Can't wait to see what Stan does with Zion/Ingram/Holiday/Lonzo/JJ/NAW/Hart as a starting point!

[Ducklett]

SVG signed with the Pels! I am actually really happy with that partnership. Can't wait to see what Stan does with Zion/Ingram/Holiday/Lonzo/JJ/NAW/Hart as a starting point!

Pels win a playoff series before we do. Write the prediction down now.

[VFX]

Fry cry for tanking and rebuild via draft, with lottery changes that do not reward worst teams any more, incomming inflaction of highschool kids on board that will result (once again) with way more busts in lottery and players jumping ships and deciding where they want to go after 4-5 years makes drafting as "strategy" as much of a strategy as finding wife by clicking on "hot moms in your area".

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

Duncan and Hollinger Monday podcast has a pretty interesting tidbit about the Magic and their cap situation in their most recent podcast at the 1:13:00 mark.

Some tidbits of the segment:

- They say Orlando is in a average cap and average team situation and it could be a wise choice to trade Gordon, get rid of Fournier or let him opt in one year and shoot for the moon in 2021 and be a cap space free agent player when Isaac is back.

- They are stuck in the middle and “getting crushed” in the first round is their ceiling or they could restart new roster and team trajectory with moves this offseason. Hard choice for a mid market team.

-Vuc is there best player but his contract is huge and he’s also most valuable to Orlando’s current success.

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

He’s not a terrible salary if he’s your 2-3rd guy, with a declining contract, and competing for championships. Orlando isn’t, so it doesn’t apply.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.

To what pepe is saying, go ahead and give me an example of a move that benefits Orlando in the long term without utilizing high draft picks. You can’t without it being a lateral move to match salary. Just more examples and hyperbole saying “young kids will be busts” while you shake your fist at the clouds.

[UnFadeable21]

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

They said it’s huge because he’s a center in todays modern space and pace game.

I like Big’s and wish teams did more post ups but I’m a 90’s basketball fan when the power forwards and centers ruled the league.

ok, but unlike say Drummond, Gobert, Valuncianas, etc, he has 3 pt range. so he isnt a detriment on offense and helps create space. Im not saying he is cheap, but i dont view it as huge, and it also decreases every year

Don’t shoot the messenger. You can go tweet Nate Duncan and John Hollinger on Twitter why they said that about the Magic

[Bensational]

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

They said it’s huge because he’s a center in todays modern space and pace game.

I like Big’s and wish teams did more post ups but I’m a 90’s basketball fan when the power forwards and centers ruled the league.

ok, but unlike say Drummond, Gobert, Valuncianas, etc, he has 3 pt range. so he isnt a detriment on offense and helps create space. Im not saying he is cheap, but i dont view it as huge, and it also decreases every year

This is part of the discrepancy between our valuation of our players and outside (the buyers) valuation. They're the ones who will set the value with what they choose to offer in return. Then we decide if it's fair enough value or not.

All of our players fall under that, which is probably why we still have a lot of them.

[Def Swami]

A little off topic here, but I've always disliked whoever runs the Magic social media account. Like wtf is this nonsense of a picture? Don't insult my intelligence as a fan. This picture is downright embarrassing.

Read on Twitter

Never forget this gem.

Read on Twitter

?lang=en

[tiderulz]

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

He’s not a terrible salary if he’s your 2-3rd guy, with a declining contract, and competing for championships. Orlando isn’t, so it doesn’t apply.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.

To what pepe is saying, go ahead and give me an example of a move that benefits Orlando in the long term without utilizing high draft picks. You can’t without it being a lateral move to match salary. Just more examples and hyperbole saying “young kids will be busts” while you shake your fist at the clouds.

Gobert - $26mil
Drummond - $28mil
Jokic - $29mil
Adams - $27mil

[VFX]

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

He’s not a terrible salary if he’s your 2-3rd guy, with a declining contract, and competing for championships. Orlando isn’t, so it doesn’t apply.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.

To what pepe is saying, go ahead and give me an example of a move that benefits Orlando in the long term without utilizing high draft picks. You can’t without it being a lateral move to match salary. Just more examples and hyperbole saying “young kids will be busts” while you shake your fist at the clouds.

Gobert - $26mil
Drummond - $28mil
Jokic - $29mil
Adams - $27mil

Not sure what you’re trying to point out. So outside of Love and Horford, who are considered by all to be massively overpaid, Vucevic is the only non all star Center anywhere close to those numbers. Fwiw I’m not paying Adams or Drummond that money either.

Spoiler:

[pepe1991]

I wrote this in the other offseason thread. It applies to you and the Magic’s current state:

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

He’s not a terrible salary if he’s your 2-3rd guy, with a declining contract, and competing for championships. Orlando isn’t, so it doesn’t apply.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.


To what pepe is saying, go ahead and give me an example of a move that benefits Orlando in the long term without utilizing high draft picks. You can’t without it being a lateral move to match salary. Just more examples and hyperbole saying “young kids will be busts” while you shake your fist at the clouds.

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

Magic trading him will just have same salary as they have now, just spread around 2,3 worst players. It still won't change fact team has no second star. It will actually just mean team has 1 good player less.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.

Several things. "This" season , as reference to 2019-20 is obsolete, NBA season ends with last game of nba finals. But you do it here on purpose to create false narrative about his salary and " 23rd highest payed" , witch, no longer simply isn't true as he is now waaaaay town to 43rd highest payed player, as we enter 2021 season.

This is very important and great example of spin. You go to great lenghts debating with yourself is Kevin Love center to make " point " how nobody pays centers any more, where , in reality, for 2021 this nba CENTERS are payed more than Vuc: Horford, Embiid, Steven Adams, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, Karl Anthony Towns, Nikola Jokić.
So 7 different nba centers are actually making more than Vuc and are pivotal parts of their team sucess. Not to mention pending FAs of Adebayo, Gobert and Ayton, who are all going to earn more than Vuc is making in 2020-21 season after next season. So in 2021 there weill be at least 10 nba centers payed more than Vuc.


Since you love to crap on centers and drool on lottery, it's interesting to see highest draft picks last few years: Zion ( PF/C), Ayton (C), Wiseman (C), Bagley (PF/C) , Towns (C). SO either:
a) your theory about centers being usless is wrong
b) your theory about draft as promise land is wrong, since half of top 2 picks drafted in last 5 yeras were - centers.


From 2013 to 2017 ( giving some time for others to prove themselfs) those lottery picks don't even play in nba or are marginal players and deep bench guys:
2013- Bennett, McLemore, Alex Len, Trey Burke, MCW, Shabazz Muhamed
2014- Exum, Statuskas, Vonleh ( could slot Jabari Parker just as easly here)
2015- Okafor, Hezonja, WSC, Mudiay, Kaminsky,Lyles, Payne
2016- Maker, Bender, Pöltl, Chriss,Papagiannis
2017- Jackson, Smith,Ntilikina, Monk ( Zach Collins could just as easly be counted as marginal)

So 5 drafts, 70 prospects drafted in LOTTERY total, 25 ( without Collins and Parker) complete busts.

Probability of drafting WELL BELOW AVERAGE PLAYER IN LOTTERY based on this is whooping 36%.

This is not something i'm making up, this is reality of drafting in lottery. There is zero guarantee you will get star, but there is also zero guarantee you will get even good player.

HOWEVEEEER, if you look at " probability of drafting allstar " you get super inflated, false and missleading numbers because what "allstar" actually means. It means player selected at least once in allstar game, regardless is he starter, or just guy picked up in slot of injuried player, those are some of guys who were never "stars" nor anything more than complimentary peaces ,yet "drafted allstar lottery pick" is something that stands in their CV:

Allstar was Loul Deng, while averaging 16 points a game. ( as former 7th overall pick).
Allstar was Chris Kaman while averaging 18 points ( as former 6th pick)
Allstar was Bynum, while averaging 18 points as 10th pick
Allstar was Igoudala, averaged 12 points a game as 9th pick
Allstar was Tyson Chandler, 11 ppg, former 2# pick

[VFX]

ehh, Vuc's salary is big but not Huge. he is owed $26mil next year. 42 players paid more. I would say huge is over $30mil, and too much unless you are transcendant is over $40mil (5 players and at least 2 of them dont deserve it)

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

He’s not a terrible salary if he’s your 2-3rd guy, with a declining contract, and competing for championships. Orlando isn’t, so it doesn’t apply.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.


To what pepe is saying, go ahead and give me an example of a move that benefits Orlando in the long term without utilizing high draft picks. You can’t without it being a lateral move to match salary. Just more examples and hyperbole saying “young kids will be busts” while you shake your fist at the clouds.

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

Magic trading him will just have same salary as they have now, just spread around 2,3 worst players. It still won't change fact team has no second star. It will actually just mean team has 1 good player less.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.

This is very important and great example of spin. You go to great lenghts debating with yourself is Kevin Love center to make " point " how nobody pays centers any more, where , in reality, for 2021 this nba CENTERS are payed more than Vuc: Horford, Embiid, Steven Adams, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, Karl Anthony Towns, Nikola Jokić.
So 7 different nba centers are actually making more than Vuc and are pivotal parts of their team sucess. Not to mention pending FAs of Adebayo, Gobert and Ayton, who are all going to earn more than Vuc is making in 2020-21 season after next season. So in 2021 there weill be at least 10 nba centers payed more than Vuc.


Since you love to crap on centers and drool on lottery, it's interesting to see highest draft picks last few years: Zion ( PF/C), Ayton (C), Wiseman (C), Bagley (PF/C) , Towns (C). SO either:
a) your theory about centers being usless is wrong
b) your theory about draft as promise land is wrong, since half of top 2 picks drafted in last 5 yeras were - centers.

This is not something i'm making up, this is reality of drafting in lottery. There is zero guarantee you will get star, but there is also zero guarantee you will get even good player.

First, out of all those examples only 3 guys are worth their contracts as centers. Embiid, AD, Jokic, and maybe KAT. There are very few exceptions in Jokic, Bam, Zion, etc. that provide legitimate playmaking ability that the others don’t.

Secondly, yes that applies to drafting Centers. This is why I was against drafting Bamba entirely.

Let’s go option c) Drafting a Center with a top pick is dumb altogether.

Why? Because you can just sign them and pay market value in free agency, or draft one with a much later pick. Theis, Zubac, and PJ Tucker were starting Centers for contending teams this season. Drafting a wing or a guard is infinitely more worth the value unless we are discussing a once in a generation talent. This is why selecting them later in the draft makes more sense (ex. Jokic and Gobert). You are proving my point about big men being busts taken high in the lotto, thanks.

No **** there is no guarantee in drafting a star. This has been explained over and over again. Odds are higher closer to the top. That’s why people are suggesting trades for 2020 and 2021 and don’t care about the short term results. Again, explain another way of landing a star level player in Orlando’s current situation. You can’t.

[tiderulz]

The takeaway from Vuc’s deal is that he’s “expensive” for Orlando because they don’t have a real star to properly invest money toward.

He’s not a terrible salary if he’s your 2-3rd guy, with a declining contract, and competing for championships. Orlando isn’t, so it doesn’t apply.

Him playing the least valuable position -per salary and availability- doesn’t necessarily help his case either. No true Centers (depending on how you classify Kevin Love) come close to his salary except Embiid.

There are no Centers in the top 20 highest salaries in the nba, and Vuc is currently #23. That being said, he still will have decent value as his contract declines.

To what pepe is saying, go ahead and give me an example of a move that benefits Orlando in the long term without utilizing high draft picks. You can’t without it being a lateral move to match salary. Just more examples and hyperbole saying “young kids will be busts” while you shake your fist at the clouds.

Gobert - $26mil
Drummond - $28mil
Jokic - $29mil
Adams - $27mil

Not sure what you’re trying to point out. So outside of Love and Horford, who are considered by all to be massively overpaid, Vucevic is the only non all star Center anywhere close to those numbers. Fwiw I’m not paying Adams or Drummond that money either.

Spoiler:

Vuc was an all-star. its like your moving goal posts. You said there isnt another "true center" close to his salary, when there are 4 that make more than him. then you bring in some statement about non all-star, not sure why as Nik is an all-star.

[zaymon]

The bigger the player is while retaining high skill level and mobility the hardest he is to find.
Slogan to not draft "centers" is stupid and lazy. You could also point out that low iq wings like Wiggins and Hezonja are almost always busts so maybe dont draft wings ? Center says nothing about a player these days.