The Lebron Thread | 2021 & Offseason

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron can create his own shot just as well as MJ. In fact, defenses are generally so terrified of his driving ability, they are willing to sag off and let him take shots. He loves his baseline fadeaway which really can't be stopped either. Jordan is superior in his ability to make those consistently, not in his ability to take them

[D.Brasco]

Year 17

[Jdw38]

As I said a couple weeks or so ago, I now have Lebron as my GOAT. But I still think MJ has a good case, and at times I find myself doubting whether one is “objectively” greater than the other; I think as most recognize, it all depends on what criteria one brings to bear to determine GOAT-ship.

Just a thought on MJ’s excellence:
Given that MJ and LBJ are very comparable, maybe more “subjective” aspects of their games should be compared. If we factor in aesthetics and think of basketball as in part, or at its very best, an art-form, I have to say I find MJ’s game more beautiful (though LeBron’s does possess a more methodical/cerebral beauty). MJ’s game—from his beguiling ability to defy Father Gravity and articulately contort his malleable body into artistic forms of dunking, making a layup, and fading away on high to a level that STILL to this day induces a peculiarly aesthetic experience—strikes me as (no exaggeration) bordering on the sublime. Now I’m not an academic or professional artist in any strict domain, but I know people who are, and even while most of them hardly care for basketball, they all without fail respect the artistry of MJ.

Aside from the obvious fact that Jordan was great at basketball in the extreme, I also think what has made MJ’s game so definitive and and top-of-mind when one thinks of the paradigmatic basketball aesthetic was just how beautiful, effortless, and instinctual his embodiment of the basketball spirit was; he made it an art appealing even to those who could care less for hoops. MJ’s lasting paradigmatic significance for basketball is analogous to what Bruce Lee has done for martial arts in creating its paradigm, or to what Michael Jackson has done for musical-dance performance and “pop” music. Among LeBron’s many records and milestones, artistry comparable to MJ is not one of them.

[Heej]

As I said a couple weeks or so ago, I now have Lebron as my GOAT. But I still think MJ has a good case, and at times I find myself doubting whether one is “objectively” greater than the other; I think as most recognize, it all depends on what criteria one brings to bear to determine GOAT-ship.

Just a thought on MJ’s excellence:
Given that MJ and LBJ are very comparable, maybe more “subjective” aspects of their games should be compared. If we factor in aesthetics and think of basketball as in part, or at its very best, an art-form, I have to say I find MJ’s game more beautiful (though LeBron’s does possess a more methodical/cerebral beauty). MJ’s game—from his beguiling ability to defy Father Gravity and articulately contort his malleable body into artistic forms of dunking, making a layup, and fading away on high to a level that STILL to this day induces a peculiarly aesthetic experience—strikes me as (no exaggeration) bordering on the sublime. Now I’m not an academic or professional artist in any strict domain, but I know people who are, and even while most of them hardly care for basketball, they all without fail respect the artistry of MJ.

Aside from the obvious fact that Jordan was great at basketball in the extreme, I also think what has made MJ’s game so definitive and and top-of-mind when one thinks of the paradigmatic basketball aesthetic was just how beautiful, effortless, and instinctual his embodiment of the basketball spirit was; he made it an art appealing even to those who could care less for hoops. MJ’s lasting paradigmatic significance for basketball is analogous to what Bruce Lee has done for martial arts in creating its paradigm, or to what Michael Jackson has done for musical-dance performance and “pop” music. Among LeBron’s many records and milestones, artistry comparable to MJ is not one of them.

To me LeBron's not the paragon of the art the way Jordan is on the court, but to me he is the ultimate representative of the hero's journey and the beauty in the strife of human triumph amidst struggles on and off the court. To me, Lebron exemplifies everything you want in a hero that never quits and never gives up and always bounces back to fight another day. MJ quit multiple times because he didn't have the mental capacity to keep playing or forging a tough and uncertain path.

LeBron has had to deal with incomparable pressure, and he's said it before that no player will ever have to face a return to a spited fanbase the way he did in Cleveland. No one will ever have it as hard as he did in terms of off the court distractions and pressures and general energy drain.

Not only that but he didn't have the same incomparable luck that other legends like Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Durant (eh), and even Jordan had with teammates and organizational decision makers. He had to plot and machinate his way to the top oftentimes on his own to make up for the incompetent stewards of his career he'd been given, or bad teammate luck.

And despite all of that all he did year after year was keep chipping away, keep working, keep improving, keep inventing new motivations, keep reinventing himself, keep plotting new courses, keep charting new waters and blazing new trails, and never once gave up on himself. All the while being an incredible family man and community pillar.

So people can appreciate the artistry of Michael Jordan all they want, that's cool with me. But to me, LeBrons legacy and what he truly means to his fans just as a human being and a real life hero is so much greater than MJs it's not even close. He became LeGOAT by openly embracing his flaws and overcoming them in the face of an entire generation of critics, not hiding them and running away from them and having an entire generation of media actively coddling his legacy and building up embellished myths and legends to protect it.

[Jdw38]

PS--This video ( I remember when it first dropped ~10 years ago!) conveys well much of what I was trying to articulate in my last post.

Watch on YouTube

[thebigbird]

As I said a couple weeks or so ago, I now have Lebron as my GOAT. But I still think MJ has a good case, and at times I find myself doubting whether one is “objectively” greater than the other; I think as most recognize, it all depends on what criteria one brings to bear to determine GOAT-ship.

Just a thought on MJ’s excellence:
Given that MJ and LBJ are very comparable, maybe more “subjective” aspects of their games should be compared. If we factor in aesthetics and think of basketball as in part, or at its very best, an art-form, I have to say I find MJ’s game more beautiful (though LeBron’s does possess a more methodical/cerebral beauty). MJ’s game—from his beguiling ability to defy Father Gravity and articulately contort his malleable body into artistic forms of dunking, making a layup, and fading away on high to a level that STILL to this day induces a peculiarly aesthetic experience—strikes me as (no exaggeration) bordering on the sublime. Now I’m not an academic or professional artist in any strict domain, but I know people who are, and even while most of them hardly care for basketball, they all without fail respect the artistry of MJ.

Aside from the obvious fact that Jordan was great at basketball in the extreme, I also think what has made MJ’s game so definitive and and top-of-mind when one thinks of the paradigmatic basketball aesthetic was just how beautiful, effortless, and instinctual his embodiment of the basketball spirit was; he made it an art appealing even to those who could care less for hoops. MJ’s lasting paradigmatic significance for basketball is analogous to what Bruce Lee has done for martial arts in creating its paradigm, or to what Michael Jackson has done for musical-dance performance and “pop” music. Among LeBron’s many records and milestones, artistry comparable to MJ is not one of them.

To me LeBron's not the paragon of the art the way Jordan is on the court, but to me he is the ultimate representative of the hero's journey and the beauty in the strife of human triumph amidst struggles on and off the court. To me, Lebron exemplifies everything you want in a hero that never quits and never gives up and always bounces back to fight another day. MJ quit multiple times because he didn't have the mental capacity to keep playing or forging a tough and uncertain path.

LeBron has had to deal with incomparable pressure, and he's said it before that no player will ever have to face a return to a spited fanbase the way he did in Cleveland. No one will ever have it as hard as he did in terms of off the court distractions and pressures and general energy drain.

Not only that but he didn't have the same incomparable luck that other legends like Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, and even Jordan had with teammates and organizational decision makers. He had to plot and machinate his way to the top oftentimes on his own to make up for the incompetent stewards of his career he'd been given, or bad teammate luck.

And despite all of that all he did year after year was keep chipping away, keep working, keep improving, keep inventing new motivations, keep reinventing himself, and never once gave up on himself. All the while being an incredible family man and community pillar. So people can appreciate the artistry of Michael Jordan all they want, that's cool with me. But to me, LeBrons legacy and what he truly means to his fans just as a human being and a real life hero is so much greater than MJs it's not even close. He became LeGOAT by openly embracing his flaws and overcoming them in the face of an entire generation of critics, not hiding them and running away from them and having an entire generation of media actively coddling and doggedly defending his legend.

Jordan has the perfect story and I don't think any other player will ever be able to compete with that story. And he played at the perfect time to create that mythical story. But I don't think any other player would be able to handle the media onslaught that LeBron has faced every single day for the past 10+ years. Maybe Tom Brady. We've got dudes whose entire careers center around hating on the man, lol. Bron's been bouncing back to fight another day all his life. He's built different.

[Jdw38]

I liked your thoughtful post Heej,but don't you think its a bit of an exaggeration to say Jordan had "incomparable luck", and to say that Jordan's legacy is "not even close" to Lebron's (though I take your related point that "what he [Lebron] truly means to his fans just as a human being and a real life hero is so much greater)? Also, isn't it somewhat inaccurate to imply that MJ was in the habit of "running away" from his problems? Jordan clearly hated losing year in and year out the against the pistons, yet he never left the bulls.

Also, your post seems to imply a willingness to concede that Jordan's game is more aesthetically pleasing; is that a fair inference for me to draw?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Totally agree about the art in MJs game. I think it contributes significantly to why many view him as GOAT. There is beauty in LeBron's game too, but of a different nature, coarser, less refined and it doesn't resonate as well for many.

Like LeBron is just smashing x on a video game while Jordan knows almost the secret moves that are more interesting to watch than an endless series of jabs. Maybe endless jabs is more effective, but it's not as fun to watch. This is an oversimplified analogy, but that's part of the allure of Jordan.

[Mos_Heat]

I would like them to get one of these guys in a 2 for 1 trade:

Patty Mills
Josh Richardson
Nemanja Bjelica

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

Damn he even shoots FTs better than MJ in the 4th quarter of finals games

Of course MJ shot more of them though even in way fewer games

Great stats!

[Ursusamericanus]

Totally agree about the art in MJs game. I think it contributes significantly to why many view him as GOAT. There is beauty in LeBron's game too, but of a different nature, coarser, less refined and it doesn't resonate as well for many.

Like LeBron is just smashing x on a video game while Jordan knows almost the secret moves that are more interesting to watch than an endless series of jabs. Maybe endless jabs is more effective, but it's not as fun to watch. This is an oversimplified analogy, but that's part of the allure of Jordan.

Yeah, MJ's game was just incredibly aesthetically pleasing and graceful. Catlike, in a way. LeBron's has always been more about power and with his duck-toed stance and massive frame he just lacks the glide and flow of MJ.

But for whatever reason I have always preferred watching LeBron, he oozes basketball genius and we are truly watching a maestro at work when he plays. Might not be super smooth-looking but he's incredibly tactical.

[D.Brasco]

Agree with this comment from MJ?

[PistolPeteJR]

I would like them to get one of these guys in a 2 for 1 trade:

Patty Mills
Josh Richardson
Nemanja Bjelica

If I had to rank them in order of priority, it'd be:

- Josh Richardson
- Nemanja Bjelica
- Patty Mills

Of course, the cost for each probably goes from more to less expensive in that order as well lol.

[Heej]

I liked your thoughtful post Heej,but don't you think its a bit of an exaggeration to say Jordan had "incomparable luck", and to say that Jordan's legacy is "not even close" to Lebron's (though I take your related point that "what he [Lebron] truly means to his fans just as a human being and a real life hero is so much greater)? Also, isn't it somewhat inaccurate to imply that MJ was in the habit of "running away" from his problems? Jordan clearly hated losing year in and year out the against the pistons, yet he never left the bulls.

Also, your post seems to imply a willingness to concede that Jordan's game is more aesthetically pleasing; is that a fair inference for me to draw?

Jordan got the second best wing of his era drafted on to his team while also getting one of the best coaches ever, that kind of Fortune is incomparable when you look at the hand LeBron was dealt. LOL the only reason Jordan didn't leave the Bulls while they were bad is because it made zero sense financially for him. No matter what, stars are gonna give their teams 7 years simply due to contract reasons. He retired twice in his prime when his deck was no longer stacked and to me that's an L. Bron wouldve just figured out a new situation for himself to compete, not quit.

[PistolPeteJR]

Agree with this comment from MJ?

He's right to a certain extent for sure. I think he said this in that cigar interview a few days ago.

[D.Brasco]

Agree with this comment from MJ?

He's right to a certain extent for sure. I think he said this in that cigar interview a few days ago.

Lol yup yeah that's where it's quoted from.

I have LeBron ranked as high as I do because I've litterally watched him from day one in his career and know what he's done/still doing.

However I have legit thought when we get to the point where we have NBA fans who didn't grow up watching either MJ or LeBron play, when they see LeBron's gaudy career numbers especially when/if he finishes the all time leading scorer in the regular season in addition to the playoffs and with his other accolades.

He will probably be looked at as the GOAT by those fans.

[MisterHibachi]

Agree with this comment from MJ?

MJ moving into the acceptance stage of the grieving process.

[KTM_2813]

My sense is that the average fan still sides with Jordan, but if James is able to lead the Lakers to another championship (and perhaps win FMVP) and finish as the all-time leading scorer, it will become almost 50/50.

[nzahir]

Read on Twitter

Damn he even shoots FTs better than MJ in the 4th quarter of finals games

Of course MJ shot more of them though even in way fewer games

Great stats!

Are those stats confirmed correct?

[Jdw38]

Heej, I don’t disagree that Jordan was very much fourtunate, but you’re formulation of his “incomparable” fortune sounds hyperbolic, perhaps I’m quibbling over semantics. Yes indeed, Jordan got Pippen, but Pippen wasn’t really physically and mentally prepared to be a major championship piece until the 1991 season when Jordan was close to 30 years old. For comparison Lebron was 26 when he joined Miami compared to Jordan at 28 in 1991; for Jordan to go on to win as much he did in the twilight of his 20’s and well into his 30’s (though admittedly his last 3 were won in part due to the overall weakness of the league’s talent in the mid 90’s, but even still, Jordan was well past his atheistic prime and managed to bag 3 straight titles—a very difficult feat in any era). Jordan deserves credit for preserving his game by honing it in in ways increasingly less reliant on raw and explosive athleticism. And I will raise a speculative observation: Lebron doesn’t know what it’s like to win 3 straight titles and deal with the flipside of being more heavily scrutinized: being universally adored to a unhealthy degree. Yeah, Lebron has won 2 straight, but the history of the game has shown that that is a far less exceptional accomplishment than willing 3 straight, despite it “only” being a 1 ring difference. Jordan’s first, and also 2nd 3-peat needs to be contextualized. Aside from Russel’s Celtics, nobody had won 3 straight (unless I’m forgetting something); Jordan pulling it off the first time, then to do it AGAIN must have felt mythical. LeBron’s lesser 2-peat came on the heels of two MJ 3-peats, and Shaq and Kobe’s 3-peat, and has been followed by the Warriors 2-peat; racking up rings like that was much more historically commonplace when Lebron started playing, so the historic sense of accomplishment leading to the sense that one can now retire is something that Jordan felt in a way Lebron simply never could. In a weird way, it’s the fact that lebron has lost so much in the finals that has lead him to exhibit the parallel greatness of longevity in a way Jordan didnt; Lebron has so often been close to the mountain top and yet fallen short (largely not due to himself) that the thirst for getting all the way to the mountain top has remained in Lebron in a way very unlikely for somebody whose won to a historic level and over a historic stretch.

Also, perhaps winning 3 straight titles, compounded by the no doubt psychological difficulties attendant upon being (nearly) universally worshipped and adored (whose potentially negative mental impact people understate in my judgement, simply because it’s alleged to be better than the greater scrutiny Lebron and other’s have received) and having your dear father go missing, find out he was murdered and left to rot over the pettiest of material things. And to make matters worse, many in the media and public start concocting savage conspiracy theories that it’s YOUR fault your father met such a miserable and degrading end. I’m sure his dad’s death hugely impacted how he saw the importance of “winning” and even playing basketball, as his poignant and perhaps even noble stint in the JUNIOR MLB—a context in which he freely deprived himself of the familiar and earned recognition of being the absolute best which he formerly enjoyed and all the awe, praise, and support of the wider world. This self-abdication on Jordan’s part is a dimension of the MJ story that find genuinely compelling as it’s rooted in a real off-the-court crisis and trauma.

On the Jordan quote posted above from the cigar interview, I take the point of the quote, but I do nonetheless think there are aspects of MJ’s career that will continue to hold up remarkably well. To name some of them: Jordan will always have an unimpeachable record in the finals; Jordan will never have an unmitigated stain in his career like Lebron did in the 2011 Finals, and to a lesser extent 2010; Jordan elevated a franchise and won all his titles with the team that drafted him, and aside from the Wizard years, he played his entire career with them. Despite the Heat not turning out to be the long-term powerhouse Lebron thought they would be, the optics of his Decision to team up with other elite players just doesn’t look good in comparison to Jordan.