Bulls might trade up in draft - Update PG. 25 - Bulls like Ball/may dangle Carter Jr. per Givony

[PhilLeotardo]

Out of all the boards I’ve been on I must say that this board have the weirdest views on basketball I have ever encountered.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Actually, the general board on this website is an absolute nightmare. If you think the individual subs are strange, the GB is shockingly awful. It’s literally nothing but trolls, the mods there have allowed it to descend into madness

The RGM GB is now nearly as bad as InsideHoops. I’m not exaggerating either. It’s like 60% trolls, ISH is probably like 80/85% trolls. So, while not as staggeringly terrible as ISH, it’s actually nearly as bad, because there’s way more people on RGM. ISH is essentially a troll wasteland & it appears that RGM GB is headed down that same road. It’s unfortunate, because it used to be a great forum

As far as the Bulls RGM forum is specifically concerned, it’s still probably better than reddit, which attracts lots of trolls by default. However, Bulls fans across the world have been baited & abused by Psycho Pax for two straight decades, and Krause before him, so they’re still stuck in that warped/trolled mindset. Always prepared for the worst, everything sucks, no light at the end of the tunnel, etc

[netduri2]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

[The Chosen one]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

Again another advance stats post. What ever happen to watching games. I’m not even a Lavine fan but I know basketball. Played in college, coached it. To everybody that watched the bulls play it’s very obvious Lavine played at an Allstar level. But no matter how well Lavine played the coaches are not going to put him in the Allstar game over a player who team is in the playoffs. I could name you a few players that Zach had a better year than. I willing to bet if you put Paskal Siakam on the bulls team Lavine had last year the bulls would not sniff the playoffs. Hell put Beal on last year bulls with all of the injuries the bulls would be the same if not worse.

[netduri2]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

Again another advance stats post. What ever happen to watching games. I’m not even a Lavine fan but I know basketball. Played in college, coached it. To everybody that watched the bulls play it’s very obvious Lavine played at an Allstar level. But no matter how well Lavine played the coaches are not going to put him in the Allstar game over a player who team is in the playoffs. I could name you a few players that Zach had a better year than. I willing to bet if you put Paskal Siakam on the bulls team Lavine had last year the bulls would not sniff the playoffs. Hell put Beal on last year bulls with all of the injuries the bulls would be the same if not worse.

Well if you want to hear my IN GAME analysis on LaVine I can tell you all day long.

1. His terrible decision making hurts not only his shooting efficiency but also teammates' rhythm.

How many times LaVine misses Lauri after he pops and just drives to the basket while 3 defenders waiting him in the paint? How many times LaVine misses teammates open at the 3pt line and just take bad shots?

I'm not saying he is too selfish to pass. I'm saying because he clearly lacks feel for the game he can't distribute the ball to open teammates. Your BASKETBALL team can't rely on someone who cannot make the right play.

I don't want to hear he is young so he still can improve his vision. He will start his 7th season next year. He is just who he is.


2. He told some great players like MJ, Kobe dominates in the playoffs while they took tons of mid-range shots so LaVine himself needs to take those shots.

Well the problem is that his mid-range shooting percentage is worse than league average.

The funniest part is that his mid-range fg%(34.4%) is even lower than his 3pt fg%(38%)!! I guess you can do the simple math, can't you?

2 points × 0.344

vs

3 points × 0.38

which one is more efficient? Of course the latter. And yet a guy named Zach LaVine insisted he needs to shoot more mid-range shots. Yikes.

I don't like his bbiq AND egos. Not at all. He thinks he can shoot efficeintly just like mid-range master(KD, Kawhi, CP3 etc) shoots but the harsh reality is he is below average mid-range shooters.


3. He is notorious for his really bad defense. His ball watching tendency kills his off-ball defense. His close-out is also poor. I don't like his gamble to steal the ball.


I can tell you all the details why I don't like his game. I watched enough Bulls basketball game this season to have my own basketball opinion. And most of advanced stats support my (maybe little harsh) evaluation on LaVine. Simplyly put he is not an all-star level player.

I don't care if Trae or Beal could carry the injured Bulls to the playoffs if they were on the Bulls last season. Technically We don't know what would happen.

But's here's the sure thing. Despite their poor team winning records their advanced stats is way better than LaVine's. And I can tell they are clearly better players than LaVine if you watch basketball games.

[cjbulls]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

The real stats people should know that any number that intends to stand as an overall rank of a player is meaningless, especially in a sport where teammates and role have such a huge impact on performance. I think a lot of the stats guys are really smart, so I assume they just do it for the clicks.

I have gotten over stats based analysis over the years, not because it is necessarily wrong, but for how often it is misused and abused.

[netduri2]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

The real stats people should know that any number that intends to stand as an overall rank of a player is meaningless, especially in a sport where teammates and role have such a huge impact on performance. I think a lot of the stats guys are really smart, so I assume they just do it for the clicks.

I have gotten over stats based analysis over the years, not because it is necessarily wrong, but for how often it is misused and abused.

Sadly Seth Partnow is not just a stat guy. He actually worked for the Milwaukee Bucks as "the Director of Basketball Research" before he joined The Athletic.
 
It's really pathetic to see some people deny the harsh fact (or argument if you want to call it) based on advanced stats telling something they don't want to hear.

Just say one sentence "In these days people tend to misuse stats" and neglect someone's argument. What a convenient debate process it is!!

[The Chosen one]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

Again another advance stats post. What ever happen to watching games. I’m not even a Lavine fan but I know basketball. Played in college, coached it. To everybody that watched the bulls play it’s very obvious Lavine played at an Allstar level. But no matter how well Lavine played the coaches are not going to put him in the Allstar game over a player who team is in the playoffs. I could name you a few players that Zach had a better year than. I willing to bet if you put Paskal Siakam on the bulls team Lavine had last year the bulls would not sniff the playoffs. Hell put Beal on last year bulls with all of the injuries the bulls would be the same if not worse.

Well if you want to hear my IN GAME analysis on LaVine I can tell you all day long.

1. His terrible decision making hurts not only his shooting efficiency but also teammates' rhythm.

How many times LaVine misses Lauri after he pops and just drives to the basket while 3 defenders waiting him in the paint? How many times LaVine misses teammates open at the 3pt line and just take bad shots?

I'm not saying he is too selfish to pass. I'm saying because he clearly lacks feel for the game he can't distribute the ball to open teammates. Your BASKETBALL team can't rely on someone who cannot make the right play.

I don't want to hear he is young so he still can improve his vision. He will start his 7th season next year. He is just who he is.


2. He told some great players like MJ, Kobe dominates in the playoffs while they took tons of mid-range shots so LaVine himself needs to take those shots.

Well the problem is that his mid-range shooting percentage is worse than league average.

The funniest part is that his mid-range fg%(34.4%) is even lower than his 3pt fg%(38%)!! I guess you can do the simple math, can't you?

2 points × 0.344

vs

3 points × 0.38

which one is more efficient? Of course the latter. And yet a guy named Zach LaVine insisted he needs to shoot more mid-range shots. Yikes.

I don't like his bbiq AND egos. Not at all. He thinks he can shoot efficeintly just like mid-range master(KD, Kawhi, CP3 etc) shoots but the harsh reality is he is below average mid-range shooters.


3. He is notorious for his really bad defense. His ball watching tendency kills his off-ball defense. His close-out is also poor. I don't like his gamble to steal the ball.


I can tell you all the details why I don't like his game. I watched enough Bulls basketball game this season to have my own basketball opinion. And most of advanced stats support my (maybe little harsh) evaluation on LaVine. Simplyly put he is not an all-star level player.

I don't care if Trae or Beal could carry the injured Bulls to the playoffs if they were on the Bulls last season. Technically We don't know what would happen.

But's here's the sure thing. Despite their poor team winning records their advanced stats is way better than LaVine's. And I can tell they are clearly better players than LaVine if you watch basketball games.

Oh my goodness man there’s so many things wrong this post I don’t even know where to begin. I’m not going to even try to respond because when a post is so off bases it’s no point of discussion.

[The Chosen one]

Guys I’m begging you for the quality of this board. I know im not a mod and new here but please “WATCH THE GAMES before throwing out advance stats. I mean it’s obvious that a lot on here just throw out advance stats and only watched a few games. At least some are honest about watching a few games and it understandable because the bulls were terrible. It’s cool to have an opinion and everybody is not going to agree on everything that’s what makes the board fun. But I have noticed that posters are just throwing out these advanced stats and are just making these poor assessments or cherry picking what other posters have said that haven’t even watched the games themselves. It makes for poor discussion and makes the board less enjoyable.

[FranchisePlayer]

If the Bulls can move up without including LaVine, Lauri, or Coby White I say they should do it. I think Anthony Edwards, Wiseman, and LaMelo Ball are in a tier above everyone else. It still isn’t worth giving up any of the 3 players I mentioned.

Lauri?

The only reason not to trade him is because he'd only fetch a buy low price right now

Lauri’s value is at an all time low right now. Boylen is a big reason for that. Donovan will get his value back up and get him back to being the player we saw in his rookie year.

Word.

Only a biased hater can't comprehend this concept and yet worse, not accept the big probability of it happening.

[MrFortune3]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

The real stats people should know that any number that intends to stand as an overall rank of a player is meaningless, especially in a sport where teammates and role have such a huge impact on performance. I think a lot of the stats guys are really smart, so I assume they just do it for the clicks.

I have gotten over stats based analysis over the years, not because it is necessarily wrong, but for how often it is misused and abused.

Sadly Seth Partnow is not just a stat guy. He actually worked for the Milwaukee Bucks as "the Director of Basketball Research" before he joined The Athletic.
 
It's really pathetic to see some people deny the harsh fact (or argument if you want to call it) based on advanced stats telling something they don't want to hear.

Just say one sentence "In these days people tend to misuse stats" and neglect someone's argument. What a convenient debate process it is!!

The issue most have with a strictly statistical argument is that it never factors in the entire store because sports have many variables.

The Bulls were a very bad team last year, the Bulls were a very poorly coached team last year as well.
Lauri was in his head too much, WCJ was injured, the ball movement and rotation was not there and neither were the proper role assignments.

LaVine was the best player and only stand out player on a very bad team. That will not get you to the ASG, it will however raise the appreciation of your game amongst the players.
He has improved his game in every season that he has been healthy. He will continue to get better and the stats are probably never going to love him but he will be a good player for the Bulls for a long time and will likely be the centerpiece of the return to the playoffs.

[cjbulls]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

The real stats people should know that any number that intends to stand as an overall rank of a player is meaningless, especially in a sport where teammates and role have such a huge impact on performance. I think a lot of the stats guys are really smart, so I assume they just do it for the clicks.

I have gotten over stats based analysis over the years, not because it is necessarily wrong, but for how often it is misused and abused.

Sadly Seth Partnow is not just a stat guy. He actually worked for the Milwaukee Bucks as "the Director of Basketball Research" before he joined The Athletic.
 
It's really pathetic to see some people deny the harsh fact (or argument if you want to call it) based on advanced stats telling something they don't want to hear.

Just say one sentence "In these days people tend to misuse stats" and neglect someone's argument. What a convenient debate process it is!!

Umm, he is just a stats guy. He was head of research for a basketball team. He was never a coach or a player. I bet if you asked Seth about his article, he would agree these rankings shouldn’t be taken seriously. He is literally paid to produce analytics articles that casual fans can read. So it’s going to have limitations.

How can you compare the relative value of a rim running big playing 24mpg for a 5 seed playoff team in a traditional offense against another team’s #1 scorer with a slashing game playing 36mpg on a bad team in a 3pt heavy offense? Now do that for all 400 NBA players in one shot. It’s silly.

I get that you don’t like Zach, and I am not offering any opinion there. I am saying that pointing to some ranking based on pure numbers is relatively meaningless. And your response to my post is what I was referencing. People just read the numbers and try to use someone else’s misinterpreted work to make a point. It’s misuse of the stats.

[dougthonus]

I’m sorry Doug but that’s simply not true. Lavine was single handily keeping the bulls in games last year. Don’t look at these advanced stats like some posters on here because half of them don’t watch games. Everybody who watched the games could clearly see that Lavine was keeping the bulls in games last year.

I don't put 100% value in the stats. LaVine was scoring tons last year, and other guys looked scared to do anything. But in the end, LaVine had the 3rd worst adjusted plus/minus on the team.

Star players on losing teams generally do not have that happen. They simply don't. They aren't always the best due to playing against tougher competition / less garbage time / etc, but they're very rarely among the worst.

It isn't the only thing, I think this number are misleading to a degree, but it is definitely a thing. Zach's impact is definitely much smaller than his numbers at an absolute minimum. I don't agree that he's a guy who actually hurts you, but he's not helping you nearly as much as he should. It comes up in the bad defense, careless turnovers, heroball, etc...

[netduri2]

Again another advance stats post. What ever happen to watching games. I’m not even a Lavine fan but I know basketball. Played in college, coached it. To everybody that watched the bulls play it’s very obvious Lavine played at an Allstar level. But no matter how well Lavine played the coaches are not going to put him in the Allstar game over a player who team is in the playoffs. I could name you a few players that Zach had a better year than. I willing to bet if you put Paskal Siakam on the bulls team Lavine had last year the bulls would not sniff the playoffs. Hell put Beal on last year bulls with all of the injuries the bulls would be the same if not worse.

Well if you want to hear my IN GAME analysis on LaVine I can tell you all day long.

1. His terrible decision making hurts not only his shooting efficiency but also teammates' rhythm.

How many times LaVine misses Lauri after he pops and just drives to the basket while 3 defenders waiting him in the paint? How many times LaVine misses teammates open at the 3pt line and just take bad shots?

I'm not saying he is too selfish to pass. I'm saying because he clearly lacks feel for the game he can't distribute the ball to open teammates. Your BASKETBALL team can't rely on someone who cannot make the right play.

I don't want to hear he is young so he still can improve his vision. He will start his 7th season next year. He is just who he is.


2. He told some great players like MJ, Kobe dominates in the playoffs while they took tons of mid-range shots so LaVine himself needs to take those shots.

Well the problem is that his mid-range shooting percentage is worse than league average.

The funniest part is that his mid-range fg%(34.4%) is even lower than his 3pt fg%(38%)!! I guess you can do the simple math, can't you?

2 points × 0.344

vs

3 points × 0.38

which one is more efficient? Of course the latter. And yet a guy named Zach LaVine insisted he needs to shoot more mid-range shots. Yikes.

I don't like his bbiq AND egos. Not at all. He thinks he can shoot efficeintly just like mid-range master(KD, Kawhi, CP3 etc) shoots but the harsh reality is he is below average mid-range shooters.


3. He is notorious for his really bad defense. His ball watching tendency kills his off-ball defense. His close-out is also poor. I don't like his gamble to steal the ball.


I can tell you all the details why I don't like his game. I watched enough Bulls basketball game this season to have my own basketball opinion. And most of advanced stats support my (maybe little harsh) evaluation on LaVine. Simplyly put he is not an all-star level player.

I don't care if Trae or Beal could carry the injured Bulls to the playoffs if they were on the Bulls last season. Technically We don't know what would happen.

But's here's the sure thing. Despite their poor team winning records their advanced stats is way better than LaVine's. And I can tell they are clearly better players than LaVine if you watch basketball games.

Oh my goodness man there’s so many things wrong this post I don’t even know where to begin. I’m not going to even try to respond because when a post is so off bases it’s no point of discussion.

You have no idea where to begin because you cannot find somewhere to counter-attack my opinion. If you can find it please share your opinion.

I always wonder why some people like you introduce yourself as a basektball know-it-all guy and then run away saying 'Oh, I can't talk to this savage guy' when being asked about your own opinion.

[cjbulls]

The real stats people should know that any number that intends to stand as an overall rank of a player is meaningless, especially in a sport where teammates and role have such a huge impact on performance. I think a lot of the stats guys are really smart, so I assume they just do it for the clicks.

I have gotten over stats based analysis over the years, not because it is necessarily wrong, but for how often it is misused and abused.

Sadly Seth Partnow is not just a stat guy. He actually worked for the Milwaukee Bucks as "the Director of Basketball Research" before he joined The Athletic.
 
It's really pathetic to see some people deny the harsh fact (or argument if you want to call it) based on advanced stats telling something they don't want to hear.

Just say one sentence "In these days people tend to misuse stats" and neglect someone's argument. What a convenient debate process it is!!

Umm, he is just a stats guy. He was head of research for a basketball team. He was never a coach or a player. I bet if you asked Seth about his article, he would agree these rankings shouldn’t be taken seriously. He is literally paid to produce analytics articles that casual fans can read. So it’s going to have limitations.

How can you compare the relative value of a rim running big playing 24mpg for a 5 seed playoff team in a traditional offense against another team’s #1 scorer with a slashing game playing 36mpg on a bad team in a 3pt heavy offense? Now do that for all 400 NBA players in one shot. It’s silly.

I get that you don’t like Zach, and I am not offering any opinion there. I am saying that pointing to some ranking based on pure numbers is relatively meaningless. And your response to my post is what I was referencing. People just read the numbers and try to use someone else’s misinterpreted work to make a point. It’s misuse of the stats.

Well well, lo and behold, I found the article and what are the first things Seth says (truncated to just the headlines and one sentence, the article has much more):

“1. THESE ARE NOT RANKINGS(!!!)

If I have one core belief, it is that in almost all instances of rank-ordered lists of players, they are not only of limited use but frequently obscure more than they illuminate.

2. The Tiers are simply a useful shorthand for comparing players and across teams

The best player in Tier 3 is likely closer in ability to the worst player in Tier 2 than the worst player in his own Tier. But any exercise in line drawing produces that sort of arbitrariness,

3. At the top levels of play, fit matters. Lots

Perfect scheme and role fits can serve to elevate players above what their context-neutral abilities might suggest, while there are surely others (step forward Al Horford) for whom poor fit and context possibly knock them down a peg. Kawhi Leonard and Paul George are great but weren’t necessarily well-complemented by Lou Williams and Montrezl Harrell, or at least the versions of those players that showed up in the bubble. This is a big deal! And one for which this exercise has very little to say.”

[FranchisePlayer]

Again another advance stats post. What ever happen to watching games. I’m not even a Lavine fan but I know basketball. Played in college, coached it. To everybody that watched the bulls play it’s very obvious Lavine played at an Allstar level. But no matter how well Lavine played the coaches are not going to put him in the Allstar game over a player who team is in the playoffs. I could name you a few players that Zach had a better year than. I willing to bet if you put Paskal Siakam on the bulls team Lavine had last year the bulls would not sniff the playoffs. Hell put Beal on last year bulls with all of the injuries the bulls would be the same if not worse.

Well if you want to hear my IN GAME analysis on LaVine I can tell you all day long.

1. His terrible decision making hurts not only his shooting efficiency but also teammates' rhythm.

How many times LaVine misses Lauri after he pops and just drives to the basket while 3 defenders waiting him in the paint? How many times LaVine misses teammates open at the 3pt line and just take bad shots?

I'm not saying he is too selfish to pass. I'm saying because he clearly lacks feel for the game he can't distribute the ball to open teammates. Your BASKETBALL team can't rely on someone who cannot make the right play.

I don't want to hear he is young so he still can improve his vision. He will start his 7th season next year. He is just who he is.


2. He told some great players like MJ, Kobe dominates in the playoffs while they took tons of mid-range shots so LaVine himself needs to take those shots.

Well the problem is that his mid-range shooting percentage is worse than league average.

The funniest part is that his mid-range fg%(34.4%) is even lower than his 3pt fg%(38%)!! I guess you can do the simple math, can't you?

2 points × 0.344

vs

3 points × 0.38

which one is more efficient? Of course the latter. And yet a guy named Zach LaVine insisted he needs to shoot more mid-range shots. Yikes.

I don't like his bbiq AND egos. Not at all. He thinks he can shoot efficeintly just like mid-range master(KD, Kawhi, CP3 etc) shoots but the harsh reality is he is below average mid-range shooters.


3. He is notorious for his really bad defense. His ball watching tendency kills his off-ball defense. His close-out is also poor. I don't like his gamble to steal the ball.


I can tell you all the details why I don't like his game. I watched enough Bulls basketball game this season to have my own basketball opinion. And most of advanced stats support my (maybe little harsh) evaluation on LaVine. Simplyly put he is not an all-star level player.

I don't care if Trae or Beal could carry the injured Bulls to the playoffs if they were on the Bulls last season. Technically We don't know what would happen.

But's here's the sure thing. Despite their poor team winning records their advanced stats is way better than LaVine's. And I can tell they are clearly better players than LaVine if you watch basketball games.

Oh my goodness man there’s so many things wrong this post I don’t even know where to begin. I’m not going to even try to respond because when a post is so off bases it’s no point of discussion.

Ooh, that's rich! Your post has only one flaw and it's that you posted it in the first place. Come on, man, sharpen up!?

You really think, especially as a newcomer you'll get much appreciation after posting garbage like this? Your post had zero content, only mocking a member's post, a post which quite frankly had a lot of premises and arguments in it. To me that was a very fine post!

Whether you disagree or agree with that content you can see netduri had put a lot of time and thought to it. That makes this place unique to many other boards across the table of sports that here people actually back up their conclusions and sometimes even cook up posts that are like good mini novels.

Posts like yours scrape the bottom. Hopefully this was the last time you post anything of that sort. Cheers!

[FranchisePlayer]

Out of all the boards I’ve been on I must say that this board have the weirdest views on basketball I have ever encountered.

Oh do tell us more! We're all just dying to hear every board you've been on and what made those boards feel like such a great place.. It isn't obligatory to stay here, feel free to leave.

I'll go on record and say that I've been on multiple boards since 2003, including basketball, ice-hockey, soccer, crime, IMDB...
This is by FAR the BEST of any sport boards I've encountered when it comes down how this is moderated, how adversity is tolerated, the level of expertise of some posters (not you of course) and the number of trolls is almost zero.

I find it very "weird" for anyone to ventilate his/her frustration by making such a generalizing comment with a heavy touch of mockery. And some And1 post like that...FCOL.

[The Chosen one]

Well if you want to hear my IN GAME analysis on LaVine I can tell you all day long.

1. His terrible decision making hurts not only his shooting efficiency but also teammates' rhythm.

How many times LaVine misses Lauri after he pops and just drives to the basket while 3 defenders waiting him in the paint? How many times LaVine misses teammates open at the 3pt line and just take bad shots?

I'm not saying he is too selfish to pass. I'm saying because he clearly lacks feel for the game he can't distribute the ball to open teammates. Your BASKETBALL team can't rely on someone who cannot make the right play.

I don't want to hear he is young so he still can improve his vision. He will start his 7th season next year. He is just who he is.


2. He told some great players like MJ, Kobe dominates in the playoffs while they took tons of mid-range shots so LaVine himself needs to take those shots.

Well the problem is that his mid-range shooting percentage is worse than league average.

The funniest part is that his mid-range fg%(34.4%) is even lower than his 3pt fg%(38%)!! I guess you can do the simple math, can't you?

2 points × 0.344

vs

3 points × 0.38

which one is more efficient? Of course the latter. And yet a guy named Zach LaVine insisted he needs to shoot more mid-range shots. Yikes.

I don't like his bbiq AND egos. Not at all. He thinks he can shoot efficeintly just like mid-range master(KD, Kawhi, CP3 etc) shoots but the harsh reality is he is below average mid-range shooters.


3. He is notorious for his really bad defense. His ball watching tendency kills his off-ball defense. His close-out is also poor. I don't like his gamble to steal the ball.


I can tell you all the details why I don't like his game. I watched enough Bulls basketball game this season to have my own basketball opinion. And most of advanced stats support my (maybe little harsh) evaluation on LaVine. Simplyly put he is not an all-star level player.

I don't care if Trae or Beal could carry the injured Bulls to the playoffs if they were on the Bulls last season. Technically We don't know what would happen.

But's here's the sure thing. Despite their poor team winning records their advanced stats is way better than LaVine's. And I can tell they are clearly better players than LaVine if you watch basketball games.

Oh my goodness man there’s so many things wrong this post I don’t even know where to begin. I’m not going to even try to respond because when a post is so off bases it’s no point of discussion.

Ooh, that's rich! Your post has only one flaw and it's that you posted it in the first place. Come on, man, sharpen up!?

You really think, especially as a newcomer you'll get much appreciation after posting garbage like this? Your post had zero content, only mocking a member's post, a post which quite frankly had a lot of premises and arguments in it. To me that was a very fine post!

Whether you disagree or agree with that content you can see netduri had put a lot of time and thought to it. That makes this place unique to many other boards across the table of sports that here people actually back up their conclusions and sometimes even cook up posts that are like good mini novels.

Posts like yours scrape the bottom. Hopefully this was the last time you post anything of that sort. Cheers!

I honestly don’t care. It’s not that I disagree. It’s that all of the statements are blatantly wrong. Hell I could put together a long post but it doesn’t make my post quality. But you are right, I probably shouldn’t have responded to the post in the first place. The poster said something along the lines of how many times did Lavine miss Lauri on the pnr. If the poster watched the games he would’ve saw that the bulls ran the 2-4 pnr to death. Lauri got a lot of open looks from Lavine getting him the ball. Lauri just couldn’t convert his open shots. Also what teams started doing is switching putting the smaller guy on Lauri. Many times Lavine would pass to Lauri with the smaller guy on him but again Lauri couldn’t take advantage of his match up. So there was times when Lavine thought he had more of an advantage taking Lauri man off the bounce than Lauri had posting Lavines defender especially sense that defender was usual the opposing teams best defender. But again how would he know that if posters ARE NOT WATCHING GAMES and just posting advanced stats. There were so many other things about the post but it’s would be to much break down. But you are right, the post should’ve been ignored.

[UnFadeable21]

I would not trade LaVine for top pick of this extremely weak draft but I don't underdstand why people keep saying like Zach is already an all-star while HE IS NOT.

He never made it and here's the thing. If you think our poor record of winning percentage is due to all the injuries, G-league players like Felicio just look at the stats.

LaVine's PER(which is based on boxscore stats to calculate players' productivity per playing time) is too low to call him a sure fire all-star level player. He is ranked at the 43th in the league.

In fact his margin stats is worse. His PIPM number is negative due to his poor defensive impact. And on the offensive end because of his lack of playmaking skills he doesn't contribute to team's offense as much as his 25 points per game suggests.

Seth Partnow of the Athletic is now ranking players and guess where LaVine is ranked at? According to his evaluation using RAPM, PIPM etc there are at least 60 players whose ranking is higher than LaVine's. 60 PLAYERS ABOVE zach lavine!!

I don't want to be harsh on him because he is our best player on the team. But we need to understand that the problem is not only our rest of the players not good but also our go-to-guy is not a high level player.

Again another advance stats post. What ever happen to watching games. I’m not even a Lavine fan but I know basketball. Played in college, coached it. To everybody that watched the bulls play it’s very obvious Lavine played at an Allstar level. But no matter how well Lavine played the coaches are not going to put him in the Allstar game over a player who team is in the playoffs. I could name you a few players that Zach had a better year than. I willing to bet if you put Paskal Siakam on the bulls team Lavine had last year the bulls would not sniff the playoffs. Hell put Beal on last year bulls with all of the injuries the bulls would be the same if not worse.

Well if you want to hear my IN GAME analysis on LaVine I can tell you all day long.

1. His terrible decision making hurts not only his shooting efficiency but also teammates' rhythm.

How many times LaVine misses Lauri after he pops and just drives to the basket while 3 defenders waiting him in the paint? How many times LaVine misses teammates open at the 3pt line and just take bad shots?

I'm not saying he is too selfish to pass. I'm saying because he clearly lacks feel for the game he can't distribute the ball to open teammates. Your BASKETBALL team can't rely on someone who cannot make the right play.

I don't want to hear he is young so he still can improve his vision. He will start his 7th season next year. He is just who he is.


2. He told some great players like MJ, Kobe dominates in the playoffs while they took tons of mid-range shots so LaVine himself needs to take those shots.

Well the problem is that his mid-range shooting percentage is worse than league average.

The funniest part is that his mid-range fg%(34.4%) is even lower than his 3pt fg%(38%)!! I guess you can do the simple math, can't you?

2 points × 0.344

vs

3 points × 0.38

which one is more efficient? Of course the latter. And yet a guy named Zach LaVine insisted he needs to shoot more mid-range shots. Yikes.

I don't like his bbiq AND egos. Not at all. He thinks he can shoot efficeintly just like mid-range master(KD, Kawhi, CP3 etc) shoots but the harsh reality is he is below average mid-range shooters.


3. He is notorious for his really bad defense. His ball watching tendency kills his off-ball defense. His close-out is also poor. I don't like his gamble to steal the ball.


I can tell you all the details why I don't like his game. I watched enough Bulls basketball game this season to have my own basketball opinion. And most of advanced stats support my (maybe little harsh) evaluation on LaVine. Simplyly put he is not an all-star level player.

I don't care if Trae or Beal could carry the injured Bulls to the playoffs if they were on the Bulls last season. Technically We don't know what would happen.

But's here's the sure thing. Despite their poor team winning records their advanced stats is way better than LaVine's. And I can tell they are clearly better players than LaVine if you watch basketball games.

Wow this guy spit some hot fire truth

[UnFadeable21]

Is Zach Lavine like Andrew Wiggins?

Both guys are crazy athletic and can score 20 points a night in their sleep but they haven’t impacted winning. There the same age and both their defense is poor. But they still have hope because their are young but heading into their 6th season.

Zach 25-5-4
Wiggins 23-5-4

Nope.

Zach 25-5-5
Bulls 22-43

Wiggins 23-5-4
Warriors 15-50

Jimmy Butler 20-6-6
Heat 44-29

One guy’s number translates to winning. Two over guys with similar numbers haven’t won’t and haven’t made one all star game combined.

[cjbulls]

Is Zach Lavine like Andrew Wiggins?

Both guys are crazy athletic and can score 20 points a night in their sleep but they haven’t impacted winning. There the same age and both their defense is poor. But they still have hope because their are young but heading into their 6th season.

Zach 25-5-4
Wiggins 23-5-4

Nope.

Zach 25-5-5
Bulls 22-43

Wiggins 23-5-4
Warriors 15-50

Jimmy Butler 20-6-6
Heat 44-29

One guy’s number translates to winning. Two over guys with similar numbers haven’t won’t and haven’t made one all star game combined.

Weren’t you just advocating the Bulls trading up for 1 with LaVine? Are you fully owning up to your troll status?