The Lebron Thread | 2021 & Offseason

[KTM_2813]

On the Jordan quote posted above from the cigar interview, I take the point of the quote, but I do nonetheless think there are aspects of MJ’s career that will continue to hold up remarkably well. To name some of them: Jordan will always have an unimpeachable record in the finals; Jordan will never have an unmitigated stain in his career like Lebron did in the 2011 Finals, and to a lesser extent 2010; Jordan elevated a franchise and won all his titles with the team that drafted him, and aside from the Wizard years, he played his entire career with them. Despite the Heat not turning out to be the long-term powerhouse Lebron thought they would be, the optics of his Decision to team up with other elite players just doesn’t look good in comparison to Jordan.

I don't think that Jordan's career will hold up worse as the years pass, but I don't necessarily think that it will look better and better, which I do think LeBron's will. For example, consider the optics of teaming up with other elite players. Back in 2010, he was crucified for it. Now, it's something that people at the very least understand and even support. Really the only people who still strongly criticize him for it are trolls, amateur and professional. I can see a scenario where ten years from now, a player staying with the same franchise his whole career is actually considered weird, and what LeBron did is more the norm. If that happens, then the optics of the Decision will basically become a non-factor, IMO.

[Jdw38]

I hear you KTM_2813. All I’m saying is that the best of all possible scenarios would be to be a historic champion with the team that drafted you. Jordan’s career matches that ideal better.

[DatAsh]

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Watch on YouTube

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Watched this today. I agree! Best 3 games ever played!!!

[KTM_2813]

I hear you KTM_2813. All I’m saying is that the best of all possible scenarios would be to be a historic champion with the team that drafted you. Jordan’s career matches that ideal better.

Gotcha. I think what I'm trying to say though is that accomplishing success with the team that drafted you is slowly losing its shine. To be honest, I don't really care about it, and ten years from now, who knows if anyone else will. People may even argue that winning championships for different franchises is more ideal because it demonstrates portability and provides evidence that you are more responsible for your success than whoever is pulling the strings in the background. Or I could be completely wrong, and changing teams goes out of vogue. Just something to keep an eye on.

[Jdw38]

Hi KTM_2813,

I think the real "blemish" of Lebron's going to the Heat was that it plausibly seemed like an act of stacking the stack in his favor by teaming up with other elite players. I don't think leaving one's team is particularly unpalatable, its when you leave your team to form a team with a stupendous competitive advantage. Lebron failing in 2011 obviously adds to the odiousness of the optics of him trying to "game" the system.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Elite players teamed together is the norm of the league not an exception LeBron invented. Magic/Kareem, two top 10 all time guys played together for a decade. Duncan/Robinson played together for two titles. Shaq/Kobe won three. By those standards Jordan/Pippen looks almost mundane, but Pippen is like a top 30 ATG.

LeBron was facing a HOF trio in Boston with nothing by those sorts of standards. Teaming with Wade and Bosh was putting him on equal footing with the greats, not giving him an anomalous advantage.

The contention that a player should leave his legacy in the hands of an incapable GM is absurd.

[MisterHibachi]

Apparently Danny Green was playing with Achilles pain during the playoffs. No wonder he looked so rough.

[D.Brasco]

People forget that the main reason for the "Big 3" coming together was in reaction to the Boston Big 3 of Pierce, KG and Allen.

We remember now as well that Wade especially wasn't a superstar for about 75% of the time the Big 3 heat were around. This wasn't prime KD with prime Steph/Klay.

One of the points of the MJ quote is people who didn't watch the "decision" happen live will not have the same reactions to it.

Frankly about half the hate LeBron got for his move was tied in to that poorly thought tv broadcast.

[Mos_Heat]

I would like them to get one of these guys in a 2 for 1 trade:

Patty Mills
Josh Richardson
Nemanja Bjelica

If I had to rank them in order of priority, it'd be:

- Josh Richardson
- Nemanja Bjelica
- Patty Mills

Of course, the cost for each probably goes from more to less expensive in that order as well lol.

Not sure about that. In theory Richardson should have the highest value, but he had a down year and his Bird Rights aren't that valuable before 21' FA class. I think their market value are somewhat similar

[PistolPeteJR]

I would like them to get one of these guys in a 2 for 1 trade:

Patty Mills
Josh Richardson
Nemanja Bjelica

If I had to rank them in order of priority, it'd be:

- Josh Richardson
- Nemanja Bjelica
- Patty Mills

Of course, the cost for each probably goes from more to less expensive in that order as well lol.

Not sure about that. In theory Richardson should have the highest value, but he had a down year and his Bird Rights aren't that valuable before 21' FA class. I think their market value are somewhat similar

He offers both spacing (not as much maybe, but he's still quite reliable) + defense, something the other two can't provide at all, particularly Mills, despite the fact that he can handle the ball.

[Jdw38]

Ainosterhaspie,

I agree with you that "The contention that a player should leave his legacy in the hands of an incapable GM is absurd." All i'm saying is that the optics of Lebron's formation of the Big 3 in Miami is much less of an organic development (i.e., he left his original team/"hometown"; he joined players who had their own independent histories well before playing with him, including Wade being a FMVP before Lebron and serious MVP candidate who also to some degree himself mentored Lebron), whereas MJ's success was or at least feels much more organic and intrinsic---he had a history in Chicago before Pippen (and Grant) came along, he was a key (but of course hardly the sole) influence in their own respective developments into eventual Championship caliber players. This difference between organic and non-organic story arcs, fairly or unfairly, will remain, in my judgement, an edge in favor of MJ's legend over Lebron's in the minds of many, and at a visceral gut-level, I understand why. Not to get too speculative, but part of me thinks that Jordan's story maps onto deep-rooted predispositions, perhaps even psychically inherited archetypes, influencing the type of story we naturally find attractive or compelling. I suspect the sense (even if our narrative of it is a simplification) of organic development in MJ's career is what gives its more "real" or "uncontrived" feel relative to Lebron.

[Cavsfansince84]

Hi KTM_2813,

I think the real "blemish" of Lebron's going to the Heat was that it plausibly seemed like an act of stacking the stack in his favor by teaming up with other elite players. I don't think leaving one's team is particularly unpalatable, its when you leave your team to form a team with a stupendous competitive advantage. Lebron failing in 2011 obviously adds to the odiousness of the optics of him trying to "game" the system.

I would say that while he stacked the deck somewhat it wasn't actually close to being a stupendous competitive advantage. This is borne out by how many games those Heat teams lost in all of their title runs and also the obvious decline of both Wade and Bosh. Plus the overall lack of depth those teams had. If a guy is going to leave a team he's going to join a team where his chances of winning improve. Those Heat teams won titles based by and large by Lebron's ability to carry them in both the rs and ps. I don't think that's the way Lebron wanted it to be when he went to Miami but that ended up being the reality of things. Which is why you have to give him credit for still getting the job done.

[Jdw38]

Hey Cavsfansince84,

I exaggerated calling it stupendous. But Lebron intentionally tried to give himself a major competitive advantage (though 2012-2014 proved him wrong), as his "not 1, not 2..." comments indicate. Also, I give Lebron credit for his HEat titles; on most days I now have Lebron as my personal GOAT.

[D.Brasco]

Hey Cavsfansince84,

I exaggerated calling it stupendous. But Lebron intentionally tried to give himself a major competitive advantage (though 2012-2014 proved him wrong), as his "not 1, not 2..." comments indicate. Also, I give Lebron credit for his HEat titles; on most days I now have Lebron as my personal GOAT.

That was obviously a joke. I feel like i'm in time loop where we're back in 2010. Nobody outside of maybe some internet forums, even brings that up any more.

The past decade of LeBron and everything he's achieved pretty much shut the lid on the "decision" and that press conference in Miami as a legitimate criticism.

4 Championships, 4 FMVP's, 2 MVP's(He won 2 earlier of course) and countless thousands of points/assists/rebounds and other records have literally happened since then. That's one of the best decades in NBA history for any player...and the man's still not done.

[Jdw38]

Hey D.Brasco,

It was a joke, but jokes are revealing too--after exaggeratedly saying up to "not 7", Lebron states in a rather serious tone "I really believe it [i.e., that the Heat would win a lot of titles]".

Lebron expected the Miami Heat to be a long-term title powerhouse and that is why he wanted to form that team...he clearly miscalculated.

Here's a link to the statement:

Watch on YouTube

[Heej]

This ballboy is putting on a master class in concern trolling wonder whose account it is, can't take it seriously

Re: Danny Green, he's the one guy I expect to regress upward to the mean next season. The Achilles thing makes sense. That sucks.

[The Master]

This ballboy is putting on a master class in concern trolling wonder whose account it is, can't take it seriously

Re: Danny Green, he's the one guy I expect to regress upward to the mean next season. The Achilles thing makes sense. That sucks.

Danny Green in contract year in 14-15 season: 11.5 PPG (career high), 41.8 3PT%, 16.5 PER (career high), .163 WS/48 (career high), 4.6 BPM (career high)

(Green signs 40/4 contract)

Danny Green next three seasons: 35.7 3PT%, irritating for almost every Spurs fan

Danny Green in contract year in 18-19 season: 45.5 3PT% in regular season (career high)

(Danny Green signs 30/2 with Lakers)

Danny Green in first season: 36.7 3PT%

(Danny Green in contract year in 20-21 season incoming)

Imagine what he's gonna do fighting for his last big contract

[Heej]

This ballboy is putting on a master class in concern trolling wonder whose account it is, can't take it seriously

Re: Danny Green, he's the one guy I expect to regress upward to the mean next season. The Achilles thing makes sense. That sucks.

Danny Green in contract year in 14-15 season: 11.5 PPG (career high), 41.8 3PT%, 16.5 PER (career high), .163 WS/48 (career high), 4.6 BPM (career high)

(Green signs 40/4 contract)

Danny Green next three seasons: 35.7 3PT%, irritating for almost every Spurs fan

Danny Green in contract year in 18-19 season: 45.5 3PT% in regular season (career high)

(Danny Green signs 30/2 with Lakers)

Danny Green in first season: 36.7 3PT%

(Danny Green in contract year in 20-21 season incoming)

Imagine what he's gonna do fighting for his last big contract

Lmfaooooo this is actually amazing. We gotta sell HIGH on this boy and Kuzma next year. C'mon Pelinker, big boss moves only.

[Jdw38]

TROLL???
pffft, its tragic that some Lebron fans have become the very thing they hate...

[Dupp]

Who cares about 2011? Lebron acted like a turd and he lost. Karma.

Obviously his talent evaluation wasn’t ideal but those two were his best option and compared to what he had in Cleveland it was a godsend.

Honestly wades rapid decline was a bigger issue than fit. They were all youNg and excited and probably believed they would dominate for 7 years.