Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[Lukeem]

For me, its not even that. Boxscore numbers are overrated anyway. Its something not measurable. MJ had it in his eyes. He literally willed his team to the victory, didnt depend on super talent, great shooters around him in those moments. He was genuinely turning to killer mode in those moments, it was scary to see. Kobe had it, too. LeBron? He is posing for the cameras. He adds gestures and grimaces as he goes. Its all so fake...sad somehow. He thinks he isnt enough so he puts on an act. That, to me, is the greatest difference. MJ, Kobe knew who they were. They never "wanted their damn respect" or declared themselves "greatest of all time". They werent afraid to compete on the highest level, where LeBron is showboating when it doesnt matter, but doesnt even have the balls to compete in a single dunk contest, in 18 years. Not once. "Greatest athlete of all time" and whatnot. Why? BEcause mentally weak, cant deal with the pressure and it gets worse when theres no team mates to throw under the bus. Dunk contest, 3pt contest, cant hide, no excuses.

Who remembers when he was dunked on by a kid in his own camp, and had all cameras confiscated to avoid the video leaking out?

Has there ever been a more insecure superstar?

Pretty much everything wrong with 95% of Jordan goat supporters wrapped up in one paragraph
Like saying
1. Evidence doesn’t matter “it’s something he had in his eyes” I don’t care about your crush neither should the argument
2. “Willed his team to victory “ yeah great empty statement that applies to every nba champion but because of your feelings it applies more to Jordan than lebron in 2016 ?
3. Completely false statements “didn’t depend on super talent or great shooters” Steve kerr, John paxson, Craig Hodges (who Jordan helped force out of Chicago because Jordan was unwilling to risk endorsements by supporting Rodney king) were some of if not the best shooters in the league.
4. Completely hypocritical ideas. Lebron is bad for posing and grimacing for the camera. Jordan basically invented / more so made that popular.
5. Useless hypocritical hate. Saying lebron was too scared to do the slam dunk contest (which who gives a **** about that pageantry mess of lipstick on pigs) lebron hasn’t backed down from the president of the United States or losing the support of half the states over political reasons. Jordan was scared of that. But he did a dunk contest “he’s so brave “ with dreamy eyes. Bs

Ok little buttercup boy....youve been watching the nba for less than 10 years I guarantee it. Which means you have no idea what your talking about. I cant comment on Wilt or Russell cause i never saw them play. But i saw almost all of Jordans career. And who cares about politics? This is a basketball forum moron keep politics out of it

Swing and miss short stop. Started in the 80s Larry bird was my first favourite player. Grant hill took over.


I don’t care about politics at all in this discussion. Brought up a direct parallel when Jordan was scared of losing endorsements. Agree or disagree with lebrons politics if someone wants to try to use fear as a knock on lebron for not participating in the slam dunk contest and how lebron is a media snowflake or something Jordan is just as guilty maybe more so.

But thanks for calling me a moron without being able to comprehend simple English short form.

[Lukeem]

For me, its not even that. Boxscore numbers are overrated anyway. Its something not measurable. MJ had it in his eyes. He literally willed his team to the victory, didnt depend on super talent, great shooters around him in those moments. He was genuinely turning to killer mode in those moments, it was scary to see. Kobe had it, too. LeBron? He is posing for the cameras. He adds gestures and grimaces as he goes. Its all so fake...sad somehow. He thinks he isnt enough so he puts on an act. That, to me, is the greatest difference. MJ, Kobe knew who they were. They never "wanted their damn respect" or declared themselves "greatest of all time". They werent afraid to compete on the highest level, where LeBron is showboating when it doesnt matter, but doesnt even have the balls to compete in a single dunk contest, in 18 years. Not once. "Greatest athlete of all time" and whatnot. Why? BEcause mentally weak, cant deal with the pressure and it gets worse when theres no team mates to throw under the bus. Dunk contest, 3pt contest, cant hide, no excuses.

Who remembers when he was dunked on by a kid in his own camp, and had all cameras confiscated to avoid the video leaking out?

Has there ever been a more insecure superstar?

Pretty much everything wrong with 95% of Jordan goat supporters wrapped up in one paragraph
Like saying
1. Evidence doesn’t matter “it’s something he had in his eyes” I don’t care about your crush neither should the argument
2. “Willed his team to victory “ yeah great empty statement that applies to every nba champion but because of your feelings it applies more to Jordan than lebron in 2016 ?
3. Completely false statements “didn’t depend on super talent or great shooters” Steve kerr, John paxson, Craig Hodges (who Jordan helped force out of Chicago because Jordan was unwilling to risk endorsements by supporting Rodney king) were some of if not the best shooters in the league.
4. Completely hypocritical ideas. Lebron is bad for posing and grimacing for the camera. Jordan basically invented / more so made that popular.
5. Useless hypocritical hate. Saying lebron was too scared to do the slam dunk contest (which who gives a **** about that pageantry mess of lipstick on pigs) lebron hasn’t backed down from the president of the United States or losing the support of half the states over political reasons. Jordan was scared of that. But he did a dunk contest “he’s so brave “ with dreamy eyes. Bs


Jordan was so mentally weak and insecure he limited interviews and everything so much he kept to only people that would say nice things about him and basically had his buddy Ahmad rashad follow him around and tell the world how perfect and dreamy Jordan is

Oh so the dunk context dont matter suddenly because he didnt participate, but there are pages full of articles about his "pregame dunks" at his sons games.DOnt fool yourself. LeBron said it himself that he was afraid to lose, no need to cover it up.

Also, going agianst the president? LOL. He hopped on a convenient bandwagon to prop up his brand, as he always does. He refused to put a slogan on his jersey instead of his name. And when it really mattered, when he could have showed up and have some balls, he ... faltered. China...

Yeah, as i wrote, that is my very personal criteria. I'm not dissecting your post where oyu just quoted out of context and so on, because you argued against noone there, basically. And of all people a lebron person accuses others of "useless hypocritical hate". LOL.

But good talkin'.

I’m not a lebron fan. I’m a basketball fan and as a fan I prefer Jordan. I strongly dislike lebron.

What did I post out of context and when was I hypocritical ?

Anyone talking about lebrons pregame dunks as a measure of his greatness is imo being useless to a meaningful conversation.

[scrabbarista]

My least favorite part of the entire internet

is how everyone is constantly telling you

what everyone they disagree with

thinks, believes, and says.

Could anything be more pointless, useless, unproductive, meaningless, and - pretty much every single time - false?

Just say what you think, believe, and say.

Someone show me that you can engage in a conversation without telling the other side what they are saying, please.

It's ridiculous.

[Basketser]

C'mon, man. I agree with a lot of Les' characterization of James and Jordan there, but this feels like a bit of a cheap shot at millions of people, most of whom you've never met.

I mean, I'm not fan of LeBron James, but I know at least one decent person who is. Probably more than that.

You don't have to agree with my opinion and obviously not all lbj fans are like that, but look at all the GB threads discrediting everyone else and its obvious who the loudest and ignorant group is. Apparently lbj can fly too or so I'm told.

Its pretty complex actually. Ive tried and failed to wrap my mind around the thought model of the typical LeBron fan:
- All his team mates are terrible, beyond their prime, and he has to carry them. If he played along all stars they werent really all stars. 1st Team all NBA is not meaningful when it comes to his team mates. However it is meaningful when referring to his own accolades
- All potential challengers suck in reality. Noone can get close to him. Noone is relevant. MJ was average and played in a soft period of the NBA. He was nothing without Scottie. Dont even get started with Wilt, KAJ or Russell. KD sucks and is not talented because he joined a superteam. Which is not the same as creating a superteam. Somehow. Also he is a snake so he cant be better at basketball than Lebron because Snakes have no arms. Kawhi is terrible too, he is a bad person and bad leader. Giannis cant even play basketball and constantly travels. Or was that LeBron? Nah it is Giannis. And HArden. Harden should not have been MVP, it should always have been LeBron. Meanwhile, beating harden in the playoffs is the toughest playoff run to the finals, ever.
- At the same time, overcoming those irrelevant opponents and their annoyign team mates is an achievement of herculean dimensions. Especially since he is the greatest ever at everything and carries more, finishes better and is overall the best greatest and overall godlike.

At some point we'll all give up and give in and be assimilated. I just cant mentally grasp the concept yet.

You're projecting.This is your way of 'thinking' and you assume that others think the way you do.

I am a Lebron fan:AD is a monster,Kyrie was incredible, KD is one of the most skilled players of all time, MJ is probably the GOAT and a basketball artist. Litterary everything you said is wrong.You're fighting a scarecrow that you made up. You don't like watching bball anymore,you have a lot of anger and you need a target.

[leper-con]

Mouhammed Ali?

[Magic Is Magic]

pretty sure lebron has the better percentage too

Nope, he doesn't. He is like 7 of 17 in the final 5 seconds, to tie or take the lead. I forgot if it's 10 or 5 because Stat finder in Bref now needs subscription.

Thanks for posting the graphic. And all this time I thought it was common knowledge that LeBron James has more playoff game winners than any player in NBA history but I guess little reminders here and there are necessary.

[hedo15]

1 - kareem
2 - russell
3a - jordan
3b - lebron

[scrabbarista]

It's worth noting (for anyone still hoping to maintain some semblance of objectivity in their thinking) that that "last 10 seconds" stat is a sample size of less than a single game's worth of shots for pretty much every one of the guys on that graphic.

It's a miniscule sample size. One make or miss swings most of those players' percentages by 5-15%.

The stat also doesn't account for the quality of the shots taken. For example, I just finished watching The Last Dance today, and there were two shots in '98 where Jordan caught an out-of-bounds pass with about 1 second left to try to put his team up at the buzzer. One, against Indiana, was a double-clutched three-pointer that went off the glass before toilet-bowling in and out. The other, against Utah, was a fadeaway at or near the three-point line that dropped just short of the rim into what I think was an airball.

So, assuming that graphic is accurate, those were two of Jordan's eight misses in those situations. And if either of those shots had gone in, it would have been borderline miraculous. Not really the best examples to illustrate how "clutch" he was.

I'm not saying that the ability to take and make shots - easy or hard ones - with the game on the line isn't an important part of any player's game. I'm just saying that taking those numbers like they've been written in stone by the hand of God is probably extremely misguided, to say the least. If someone were to post video, for example, of every one of Jordan's 15 attempts and every one of James' 23 attempts, that might be a little more educational. It would still just be a few dozen shots, though, from among the 60,000 or so shots that those two players have taken in the NBA.

[sunsbg]

Didn't the poll answer the question or there is a need for 100 more threads ?

[LesGrossman]

Pretty much everything wrong with 95% of Jordan goat supporters wrapped up in one paragraph
Like saying
1. Evidence doesn’t matter “it’s something he had in his eyes” I don’t care about your crush neither should the argument
2. “Willed his team to victory “ yeah great empty statement that applies to every nba champion but because of your feelings it applies more to Jordan than lebron in 2016 ?
3. Completely false statements “didn’t depend on super talent or great shooters” Steve kerr, John paxson, Craig Hodges (who Jordan helped force out of Chicago because Jordan was unwilling to risk endorsements by supporting Rodney king) were some of if not the best shooters in the league.
4. Completely hypocritical ideas. Lebron is bad for posing and grimacing for the camera. Jordan basically invented / more so made that popular.
5. Useless hypocritical hate. Saying lebron was too scared to do the slam dunk contest (which who gives a **** about that pageantry mess of lipstick on pigs) lebron hasn’t backed down from the president of the United States or losing the support of half the states over political reasons. Jordan was scared of that. But he did a dunk contest “he’s so brave “ with dreamy eyes. Bs

Ok little buttercup boy....youve been watching the nba for less than 10 years I guarantee it. Which means you have no idea what your talking about. I cant comment on Wilt or Russell cause i never saw them play. But i saw almost all of Jordans career. And who cares about politics? This is a basketball forum moron keep politics out of it

Swing and miss short stop. Started in the 80s Larry bird was my first favourite player. Grant hill took over.


I don’t care about politics at all in this discussion. Brought up a direct parallel when Jordan was scared of losing endorsements. Agree or disagree with lebrons politics if someone wants to try to use fear as a knock on lebron for not participating in the slam dunk contest and how lebron is a media snowflake or something Jordan is just as guilty maybe more so.

But thanks for calling me a moron without being able to comprehend simple English short form.

With all due respect i dont agree with your take. They are very different in personality and guts. Jordan never, never ever backed away from a challenge and/or confrontation. LeBron did, countless times. I'm not talking business decisions here, i talk about stepping up. Starts with simple things like a dunk contest. You can wind up and stretch and reach as much as you want (wont matter because lebron had a rare moment of honesty and admitted it himself), theres no way around it. A guy of Brons talent and athletic ability, who also loves to showboat, cant shy away from a dunk contest without being called out for cowardice. And that is just a symptom for much bigger underlying issues, wether they manifest in confiscating said tapes that show him being dunked on (big deal...), or the passive-aggressive eye rolling when he actually missed his defensive assignment but wants the cameras to know it was really JR's fault, or that hand cast or bolting to Miami because he didnt believe he could do it alone, bolting again, and again. That simply isnt MJ. Its not Kobe either. THey had their own issues but they were no cowards, and they were real leaders and not just posers.

[Lukeem]

Ok little buttercup boy....youve been watching the nba for less than 10 years I guarantee it. Which means you have no idea what your talking about. I cant comment on Wilt or Russell cause i never saw them play. But i saw almost all of Jordans career. And who cares about politics? This is a basketball forum moron keep politics out of it

Swing and miss short stop. Started in the 80s Larry bird was my first favourite player. Grant hill took over.


I don’t care about politics at all in this discussion. Brought up a direct parallel when Jordan was scared of losing endorsements. Agree or disagree with lebrons politics if someone wants to try to use fear as a knock on lebron for not participating in the slam dunk contest and how lebron is a media snowflake or something Jordan is just as guilty maybe more so.

But thanks for calling me a moron without being able to comprehend simple English short form.

With all due respect i dont agree with your take. They are very different in personality and guts. Jordan never, never ever backed away from a challenge and/or confrontation. LeBron did, countless times. I'm not talking business decisions here, i talk about stepping up. Starts with simple things like a dunk contest. You can wind up and stretch and reach as much as you want (wont matter because lebron had a rare moment of honesty and admitted it himself), theres no way around it. A guy of Brons talent and athletic ability, who also loves to showboat, cant shy away from a dunk contest without being called out for cowardice. And that is just a symptom for much bigger underlying issues, wether they manifest in confiscating said tapes that show him being dunked on (big deal...), or the passive-aggressive eye rolling when he actually missed his defensive assignment but wants the cameras to know it was really JR's fault, or that hand cast or bolting to Miami because he didnt believe he could do it alone, bolting again, and again. That simply isnt MJ. Its not Kobe either. THey had their own issues but they were no cowards, and they were real leaders and not just posers.

Okay I do see what you’re saying.

But I don’t give a flying f about him backing down from a dunk contest. Other than that attitude and others are the reason I don’t like him as a player.

But I see him being down 3-1 and willing his team back to win as something with meaning.

When he joined a bad cavs team and a bad lakers team instead of joining an instant super team like a team that was already great without taking any chances. Those have more meaning but still very litttle.

What I care about is how he has performed throughout his career. And I doubt few people cheered louder than me when he lost in 2011. But since then he has been extremely amazing in many finals.

[Caped Crusader]

Nope, he doesn't. He is like 7 of 17 in the final 5 seconds, to tie or take the lead. I forgot if it's 10 or 5 because Stat finder in Bref now needs subscription.

Thanks for posting the graphic. And all this time I thought it was common knowledge that LeBron James has more playoff game winners than any player in NBA history but I guess little reminders here and there are necessary.

Okay now let's expand this list to include the final 24 seconds in the 4th or OT.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[Magic Is Magic]

Thanks for posting the graphic. And all this time I thought it was common knowledge that LeBron James has more playoff game winners than any player in NBA history but I guess little reminders here and there are necessary.

Okay now let's expand this list to include the final 24 seconds in the 4th or OT.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

MJ goes to 10 I think. Still less. Sorry.

[LesGrossman]

You don't have to agree with my opinion and obviously not all lbj fans are like that, but look at all the GB threads discrediting everyone else and its obvious who the loudest and ignorant group is. Apparently lbj can fly too or so I'm told.

Its pretty complex actually. Ive tried and failed to wrap my mind around the thought model of the typical LeBron fan:
- All his team mates are terrible, beyond their prime, and he has to carry them. If he played along all stars they werent really all stars. 1st Team all NBA is not meaningful when it comes to his team mates. However it is meaningful when referring to his own accolades
- All potential challengers suck in reality. Noone can get close to him. Noone is relevant. MJ was average and played in a soft period of the NBA. He was nothing without Scottie. Dont even get started with Wilt, KAJ or Russell. KD sucks and is not talented because he joined a superteam. Which is not the same as creating a superteam. Somehow. Also he is a snake so he cant be better at basketball than Lebron because Snakes have no arms. Kawhi is terrible too, he is a bad person and bad leader. Giannis cant even play basketball and constantly travels. Or was that LeBron? Nah it is Giannis. And HArden. Harden should not have been MVP, it should always have been LeBron. Meanwhile, beating harden in the playoffs is the toughest playoff run to the finals, ever.
- At the same time, overcoming those irrelevant opponents and their annoyign team mates is an achievement of herculean dimensions. Especially since he is the greatest ever at everything and carries more, finishes better and is overall the best greatest and overall godlike.

At some point we'll all give up and give in and be assimilated. I just cant mentally grasp the concept yet.

You're projecting.This is your way of 'thinking' and you assume that others think the way you do.

I am a Lebron fan:AD is a monster,Kyrie was incredible, KD is one of the most skilled players of all time, MJ is probably the GOAT and a basketball artist. Litterary everything you said is wrong.You're fighting a scarecrow that you made up. You don't like watching bball anymore,you have a lot of anger and you need a target.

Another typical behavior of irrational fandom is to attack everyone with a different opinion ad hominem instead of discussing the topic at hand. You reliably complied.

I am not projecting, i am literally quoting. Which part of my compilation of contradictory statements exactly havent you read before? I might be able to direct you to multiple sources if interested. But i'd expect an apology if you cant prove me wrong.

[Caped Crusader]

Thanks for posting the graphic. And all this time I thought it was common knowledge that LeBron James has more playoff game winners than any player in NBA history but I guess little reminders here and there are necessary.

Okay now let's expand this list to include the final 24 seconds in the 4th or OT.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

MJ goes to 10 I think. Still less. Sorry.

No need to be sorry. I'm not the one with the agenda. It seems that in all your posts, if anyone even dares ask a question about LeBron or challenges his greatness you get into defensive mode. Sadly, your hero doesn't know you exist despite you willing to give up your whole life for him.

I'm legit curious to any of the informed stat guys or ones who know how to find the stat. What are MJ and LeBron's respective field goals made and percentages in the 4th quarter, the final 2 minutes, and the final 24 seconds?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[twyzted]

Okay now let's expand this list to include the final 24 seconds in the 4th or OT.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

MJ goes to 10 I think. Still less. Sorry.

No need to be sorry. I'm not the one with the agenda. It seems that in all your posts, if anyone even dares ask a question about LeBron or challenges his greatness you get into defensive mode. Sadly, your hero doesn't know you exist despite you willing to give up your whole life for him.

I'm legit curious to any of the informed stat guys or ones who know how to find the stat. What are MJ and LeBron's respective field goals made and percentages in the 4th quarter, the final 2 minutes, and the final 24 seconds?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Playoffs, Last 24 seconds
James 10/28 (35.7%)
Jordan 9/18 (50.0%)

Playoffs, Last 10 seconds
James 9/23 (39.1%)
Jordan 7/15 (46.7%)

Playoffs, Last 5 seconds
James 7/18 (38.9%)
Jordan 5/11 (45.5%)

Last 25 seconds in NBA Finals
James 0/7 (0.0%)
Jordan 4/8 (50.0%)

Clutch-time scoring in NBA Finals
James 85 pts (30.8%)
Jordan 126 pts (46.9%)

Top 5 Clutch-time pts Series
James
17 pts
15 pts
14 pts
12 pts
09 pts

Jordan
38 pts (1993)
30 pts
23 pts
16 pts
15 pts

Worst 3 clutch-time pts Series
James
0 pts
2 pts
3 pts

Jordan
4 pts
15 pts
16 pts


Most 4th quarter points in a Playoff Run
James
175 pts
174 pts

Jordan
188 pts
182 pts

Most Clutch-time pts in Playoff Run
James
55 pts
48 pts

Jordan
76 pts
55 pts

Maybe something like this?

I did not make this, i just saw it in a thread earlier today.
I dont know how accurate this is.

[Caped Crusader]

MJ goes to 10 I think. Still less. Sorry.

No need to be sorry. I'm not the one with the agenda. It seems that in all your posts, if anyone even dares ask a question about LeBron or challenges his greatness you get into defensive mode. Sadly, your hero doesn't know you exist despite you willing to give up your whole life for him.

I'm legit curious to any of the informed stat guys or ones who know how to find the stat. What are MJ and LeBron's respective field goals made and percentages in the 4th quarter, the final 2 minutes, and the final 24 seconds?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Playoffs, Last 24 seconds
James 10/28 (35.7%)
Jordan 9/18 (50.0%)

Playoffs, Last 10 seconds
James 9/23 (39.1%)
Jordan 7/15 (46.7%)

Playoffs, Last 5 seconds
James 7/18 (38.9%)
Jordan 5/11 (45.5%)

Last 25 seconds in NBA Finals
James 0/7 (0.0%)
Jordan 4/8 (50.0%)

Clutch-time scoring in NBA Finals
James 85 pts (30.8%)
Jordan 126 pts (46.9%)

Top 5 Clutch-time pts Series
James
17 pts
15 pts
14 pts
12 pts
09 pts

Jordan
38 pts (1993)
30 pts
23 pts
16 pts
15 pts

Worst 3 clutch-time pts Series
James
0 pts
2 pts
3 pts

Jordan
4 pts
15 pts
16 pts


Most 4th quarter points in a Playoff Run
James
175 pts
174 pts

Jordan
188 pts
182 pts

Most Clutch-time pts in Playoff Run
James
55 pts
48 pts

Jordan
76 pts
55 pts

Maybe something like this?

I did not make this, i just saw it in a thread earlier today.
I dont know how accurate this is.

Damn! Well even though you didn't make this, thank you for sharing it. Very insightful. Appreciate you my man.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[-Sammy-]

I've never seen someone so hurt over basketball. LeBron James is the Goat. Deal with it man.

10 Finals
4 FMVPs
4 MVPs
7491 points

Life still goes on, you'll be fine.

6 RINGS
6 FMVPs
5 MVPs
10x Scoring Leader
DPOY
All-time leader in PPG in both Playoffs and the Regular Season
3x Steals Leader
All-time leader in WS/48, BPM, VORP/82, RAPTOR, etc.
More accolades and accomplishments, both team and individual aspects.

All done in less years. LeBron played more years and still behind and chasing.

Next.

For me, its not even that. Boxscore numbers are overrated anyway. Its something not measurable. MJ had it in his eyes.

This is jargon; it can't really be addressed because it's esoteric and nebulous. I'm not a 'numbers are everything' guy and I know certainly that intangibles exist. But jargon like 'killer instinct' and 'it's in the eyes' is, regardless its narrative force or the 'feeling' it gives people, pretty insubstantial.

The way to get around being forced to deal with quantifiable factors if you recognize the elusiveness intangibles often show to quantification is to just look at results. But reducing it to jargon is the sports equivalent of mysticism-- emotionally piercing and moving, but ultimately, lacking substance.

He literally willed his team to the victory...

What does this mean? It's another platitude unless you give it some clarity.

To my way of thinking, the best way to define the phrase 'will one's team to victory' is to say that a player plays so well and makes so many good decisions and plays in pivotal moments that the net effect is to negate the rest of team's shortcomings. And MJ certainly did that, probably more than anyone else who's ever played. But if you don't know that James has done plenty of that himself, you haven't been paying attention.

...didnt depend on super talent, great shooters around him in those moments.

MJ is the GOAT, but to say he didn't have plenty of talent on his teams or didn't get help from others' big shots is factually incorrect. Reference Paxson in G6 of the '93 Finals or Kerr in G6 of '98 for two examples of big (arguably series-saving) shots made by other Bulls.

Every championship is the fruit of a team full of players contributing; just because Jordan and James took different routes to end up on great teams (MJ had some of the all-time best), it doesn't mean one had them and the other didn't.

Kobe had it, too. LeBron? He is posing for the cameras. He adds gestures and grimaces as he goes.

Whatever you think of James' demeanor, to say that Kobe didn't have major affectations is also untrue. For the first half of his career, it was a running narrative in the NBA how he emulated MJ's mannerisms, style of speech-- even down to weird little things like how he chewed his gum.

It's no big deal-- that kind of thing is certainly understandable, especially witnessed in the actions of a young man who'd spent his whole life working toward being the next basketball superstar. But if you're going to fixate on James' mannerisms in the context of his trying to intentionally present an image, apply that criticism evenly. Of the three of them, MJ was the only original; Kobe and James may both have had/have a character they were/are trying to play., but if you're going to levy that accusation on LeBron, you can't spare Kobe from the same.

MJ, Kobe knew who they were. They never "wanted their damn respect" or declared themselves "greatest of all time". They werent afraid to compete on the highest level...

Kobe famously declared himself 'the best to ever do it' (that's verbatim) in 2013.

As for being afraid to compete on the highest level, I fail to recall a single time when LeBron declined to play in a championship series because he was afraid. The NBA championship is the highest level of basketball in the world. Therefore, your assertion that he's been afraid to compete on the highest level is incorrect.

Its all so fake...sad somehow. He thinks he isnt enough so he puts on an act. That, to me, is the greatest difference.

You need to be careful here. You do not know this man, and you're assuming to know things you can't know unless you do. However much you dislike him or his zealots, however little regard you have for his talent and accomplishments, you don't have access to his head. You have no idea what it's like to live the life he's lived or how that shapes his motivations and public actions.

Most of us would be very surprised to learn how wrong people we know often are in thinking they know why we do things we do; how much more wrong are you in thinking you can judge a man you'll never know, who's lived a life that only a tiny percentage of people can ever relate to, based solely on things he does when he's playing basketball?

Why? BEcause mentally weak, cant deal with the pressure...

Jesus. The man is a four-time champ, four-time MVP, and four-time Finals MVP. He has objectively had one of the very finest careers in the history of this game, full of historically-singular milestones, and is now regularly in the conversation for the best player in league history. He's one of the most influential people in the entire world-- a global icon, with many successful ventures in many diverse fields, well on his way to becoming a billionaire, all despite being under a public microscope since he was a child.

You don't achieve those things by being mentally weak. Being born tall and strong doesn't impart the character traits that yield this level of success and influence. Mental weakness doesn't produce lives like his. What are your accomplishments? If they pale in comparison to his, does that indicate mental weakness in you?

[LesGrossman]

6 RINGS
6 FMVPs
5 MVPs
10x Scoring Leader
DPOY
All-time leader in PPG in both Playoffs and the Regular Season
3x Steals Leader
All-time leader in WS/48, BPM, VORP/82, RAPTOR, etc.
More accolades and accomplishments, both team and individual aspects.

All done in less years. LeBron played more years and still behind and chasing.

Next.

For me, its not even that. Boxscore numbers are overrated anyway. Its something not measurable. MJ had it in his eyes.

This is jargon; it can't really be addressed because it's esoteric and nebulous. I'm not a 'numbers are everything' guy and I know certainly that intangibles exist. But jargon like 'killer instinct' and 'it's in the eyes' is, regardless its narrative force or the 'feeling' it gives people, pretty insubstantial.

The way to get around being forced to deal with quantifiable factors if you recognize the elusiveness intangibles often show to quantification is to just look at results. But reducing it to jargon is the sports equivalent of mysticism-- emotionally piercing and moving, but ultimately, lacking substance.

He literally willed his team to the victory...

What does this mean? It's another platitude unless you give it some clarity.

To my way of thinking, the best way to define the phrase 'will one's team to victory' is to say that a player plays so well and makes so many good decisions and plays in pivotal moments that the net effect is to negate the rest of team's shortcomings. And MJ certainly did that, probably more than anyone else who's ever played. But if you don't know that James has done plenty of that himself, you haven't been paying attention.

...didnt depend on super talent, great shooters around him in those moments.

MJ is the GOAT, but to say he didn't have plenty of talent on his teams or didn't get help from others' big shots is factually incorrect. Reference Paxson in G6 of the '93 Finals or Kerr in G6 of '98 for two examples of big (arguably series-saving) shots made by other Bulls.

Every championship is the fruit of a team full of players contributing; just because Jordan and James took different routes to end up on great teams (MJ had some of the all-time best), it doesn't mean one had them and the other didn't.

Kobe had it, too. LeBron? He is posing for the cameras. He adds gestures and grimaces as he goes.

Whatever you think of James' demeanor, to say that Kobe didn't have major affectations is also untrue. For the first half of his career, it was a running narrative in the NBA how he emulated MJ's mannerisms, style of speech-- even down to weird little things like how he chewed his gum.

It's no big deal-- that kind of thing is certainly understandable, especially witnessed in the actions of a young man who'd spent his whole life working toward being the next basketball superstar. But if you're going to fixate on James' mannerisms in the context of his trying to intentionally present an image, apply that criticism evenly. Of the three of them, MJ was the only original; Kobe and James may both have had/have a character they were/are trying to play., but if you're going to levy that accusation on LeBron, you can't spare Kobe from the same.

MJ, Kobe knew who they were. They never "wanted their damn respect" or declared themselves "greatest of all time". They werent afraid to compete on the highest level...

Kobe famously declared himself 'the best to ever do it' (that's verbatim) in 2013.

As for being afraid to compete on the highest level, I fail to recall a single time when LeBron declined to play in a championship series because he was afraid. The NBA championship is the highest level of basketball in the world. Therefore, your assertion that he's been afraid to compete on the highest level is incorrect.

Its all so fake...sad somehow. He thinks he isnt enough so he puts on an act. That, to me, is the greatest difference.

You need to be careful here. You do not know this man, and you're assuming to know things you can't know unless you do. However much you dislike him or his zealots, however little regard you have for his talent and accomplishments, you don't have access to his head. You have no idea what it's like to live the life he's lived or how that shapes his motivations and public actions.

Most of us would be very surprised to learn how wrong people we know often are in thinking they know why we do things we do; how much more wrong are you in thinking you can judge a man you'll never know, who's lived a life that only a tiny percentage of people can ever relate to, based solely on things he does when he's playing basketball?

Why? BEcause mentally weak, cant deal with the pressure...

Jesus. The man is a four-time champ, four-time MVP, and four-time Finals MVP. He has objectively had one of the very finest careers in the history of this game, full of historically-singular milestones, and is now regularly in the conversation for the best player in league history. He's one of the most influential people in the entire world-- a global icon, with many successful ventures in many diverse fields, well on his way to becoming a billionaire, all despite being under a public microscope since he was a child.

You don't achieve those things by being mentally weak. Being born tall and strong doesn't impart the character traits that yield this level of success and influence. Mental weakness doesn't produce lives like his. What are your accomplishments? If they pale in comparison to his, does that indicate mental weakness in you?

First of all, thanks for putting so much time into responding to my comment. I struggle to put it in better words, key is that i felt in certain moments that those guys just can "turn it on" (i know, very vague and esotheric) and somehow are more present. I intentionally wrote that it is in those moments (so, not generally) that Kobe, MJ didnt neccessarily need the talent or shooting, because their signature was to go and score themselves no matter what. LeBron's signature move is to create and pass. It ahs been the way he got three titles...not by scoring himself.

I wasnt aware of the Kobe quote. I've seen hiim many times refer to MJ as his mentor and idol. Wouldnt have thought he would say something like that. I think he copied MJ's mind (not superficial attributes) to perfection and noone else after wards got as close as he did, but he was not on his level in my book.

As for reading and interpreting the body language and nonverbal communication of LeBron i feel pretty confident about my assessment. I have to do this often and quick and i see certain patterns (without going into detail) that quite obviously show how much concious energy he invests in thinking about and posing for the cameras. Its not something i've seen in Kobe much, certainly not in the late Kobe. I'm not very familiar with LeBrons childhood and school career but it seems pretty clear that despite everything he's done he has strong doubts in himself and he is not primarily intrinsicly motivated to play great basketball but rather plays for attention and gratification. Do you know what he said after he won this title? "I want my damn respect".

A confident person with self esteem has no problem showing weakness. Its mostly insecure leaders that bark and point fingers and make excuses and constantly look for the best camera angle. Westbrook would be another example. All of this of course is my personal opinion / impression. I could of course be totally wrong. I've met some players but not one of that caliber but ultimately they're all human and display the same patterns everyone does.

[jc23]

Billy