The Lebron Thread | 2021 & Offseason

[Jdw38]

That loss was in some ways the best thing for him. I can’t wait for his post-career retrospective on its significance in shaping him. It’s staggering how he’s ascended since then in the GOAT rankings.

[homecourtloss]

Hey Cavsfansince84,

I exaggerated calling it stupendous. But Lebron intentionally tried to give himself a major competitive advantage (though 2012-2014 proved him wrong), as his "not 1, not 2..." comments indicate. Also, I give Lebron credit for his HEat titles; on most days I now have Lebron as my personal GOAT.

“I have LeBron as my GOAT”

Every argument of yours in this thread in favor of Jordan/against LeBron.

[Heej]

Hey Cavsfansince84,

I exaggerated calling it stupendous. But Lebron intentionally tried to give himself a major competitive advantage (though 2012-2014 proved him wrong), as his "not 1, not 2..." comments indicate. Also, I give Lebron credit for his HEat titles; on most days I now have Lebron as my personal GOAT.

“I have LeBron as my GOAT”

Every argument of yours in this thread in favor of Jordan/against LeBron.

Lmaooo I'm telling you the trolls are evolving . He must've been posting on the days LeBron wasn't his GOAT

[thebigbird]

I just wanna know why he types out peoples names to respond instead of quoting them

[KTM_2813]

Someone may have data on this, but my hunch is that almost every champion has had at least two All-Stars. The majority have probably had at least two All-Defensive/NBA selections. It's a crude measurement but it's a decent rule of thumb as far as a minimum requirement. If you have those guys, you may not win, but if you don't have those guys, you will almost surely lose.

IIRC, over the course of LeBron's first seven seasons, none of his teammates were All-NBA and only one made an All-Star team, which was Mo Williams as a backup. Honestly, if we think that it looked bad for James to change teams and try to stack the deck in his favor, then it probably says more about us than him, IMO. To be clear, I'm not talking about the circus that was The Decision - that was a dumpster fire - I'm just talking about the actual act of going to play with better teammates. It was 100% the right move in hindsight. And if the argument is that Jordan's career arc was more ideal, then I agree. It was certainly more ideal for him to have Pippen and Grant by his side than it was for James to have Williams and Varejao.

[limbo]

Someone with the same name as an Italian luxury house brand wrote a breakdown article comparing Monobrow to Bill Russell. Site could take some time to load because there's a bunch of pictures, videos and gif's

https://mikeprada.substack.com/p/the-new-standard-brow-er

[Jdw38]

I frankly don’t know how to use the quote function.

I find it interesting that I’m meet with baseless accusations of being a troll. You should have done me the charity and reviewed my posting history (it’s not long), as my fandom of Lebron is abundantly clear therein. My last half-dozen posts or so show that I think it’s a worthy pursuit to highlight various aspects
in which Jordan’s game or story-arc is, or is at least perceived to be, superior to LeBron’s. It helps one to understand better the phenomenon of many/most people ranking MJ ahead of Lebron. My posts in this new version of the Lebron thread have only made the point that, if one’s GOAT-ship calculations are based heavily on artistic excellence (which is no small thing) and being the paradigm of artistry within a sport, as well as the more organic structure of MJ’s story-arc, then it’s understandable why one might favor MJ over Lebron.

This is the only post I will make explaining myself to be a good faith actor.

[Heej]

Someone with the same name as an Italian luxury house brand wrote a breakdown article comparing Monobrow to Bill Russell. Site could take some time to load because there's a bunch of pictures, videos and gif's

https://mikeprada.substack.com/p/the-new-standard-brow-er

Mike Prada is solid man. I remember him coming up during the SBNation days as one of the few guys doing film study.

It's interesting, Russell still just seems so much more coordinated than AD. Russell moved like a swingman while AD moves like a power wing, must be the track and field background. The one guy who I feel moves the most like Russell is actually Jonathan Isaac. He's legitimately one of the only bigs I've seen that moves like a 2 guard. It remains to be seen if he can play the in-between feinting game that AD can, but if he can stay healthy I think that kid is gonna be THE defining defensive player of his generation. As of right now tho Peak AD is probably the best we've seen for the modern game other than Prime Dwight or maybe Big Ben. And he might still be better than Peak Isaac due to his better length and explosiveness.

[homecourtloss]

I frankly don’t know how to use the quote function.

I find it interesting that I’m meet with baseless accusations of being a troll. You should have done me the charity and reviewed my posting history (it’s not long), as my fandom of Lebron is abundantly clear therein. My last half-dozen posts or so show that I think it’s a worthy pursuit to highlight various aspects
in which Jordan’s game or story-arc is, or is at least perceived to be, superior to LeBron’s. It helps one to understand better the phenomenon of many/most people ranking MJ ahead of Lebron. My posts in this new version of the Lebron thread have only made the point that, if one’s GOAT-ship calculations are based heavily on artistic excellence (which is no small thing) and being the paradigm of artistry within a sport, as well as the more organic structure of MJ’s story-arc, then it’s understandable why one might favor MJ over Lebron.

This is the only post I will make explaining myself to be a good faith actor.

You’ve literally posited ZERO about why LeBron is your GOAT but made every post about why Jordan might be. I mean go ahead, but don’t think people here are stupid. Below are all your posts in this thread.

As I said a couple weeks or so ago, I now have Lebron as my GOAT. But I still think MJ has a good case, and at times I find myself doubting whether one is “objectively” greater than the other; I think as most recognize, it all depends on what criteria one brings to bear to determine GOAT-ship.

Just a thought on MJ’s excellence:
Given that MJ and LBJ are very comparable, maybe more “subjective” aspects of their games should be compared. If we factor in aesthetics and think of basketball as in part, or at its very best, an art-form, I have to say I find MJ’s game more beautiful (though LeBron’s does possess a more methodical/cerebral beauty). MJ’s game—from his beguiling ability to defy Father Gravity and articulately contort his malleable body into artistic forms of dunking, making a layup, and fading away on high to a level that STILL to this day induces a peculiarly aesthetic experience—strikes me as (no exaggeration) bordering on the sublime. Now I’m not an academic or professional artist in any strict domain, but I know people who are, and even while most of them hardly care for basketball, they all without fail respect the artistry of MJ.

Aside from the obvious fact that Jordan was great at basketball in the extreme, I also think what has made MJ’s game so definitive and and top-of-mind when one thinks of the paradigmatic basketball aesthetic was just how beautiful, effortless, and instinctual his embodiment of the basketball spirit was; he made it an art appealing even to those who could care less for hoops. MJ’s lasting paradigmatic significance for basketball is analogous to what Bruce Lee has done for martial arts in creating its paradigm, or to what Michael Jackson has done for musical-dance performance and “pop” music. Among LeBron’s many records and milestones, artistry comparable to MJ is not one of them.

PS--This video ( I remember when it first dropped ~10 years ago!) conveys well much of what I was trying to articulate in my last post.

Watch on YouTube

I liked your thoughtful post Heej,but don't you think its a bit of an exaggeration to say Jordan had "incomparable luck", and to say that Jordan's legacy is "not even close" to Lebron's (though I take your related point that "what he [Lebron] truly means to his fans just as a human being and a real life hero is so much greater)? Also, isn't it somewhat inaccurate to imply that MJ was in the habit of "running away" from his problems? Jordan clearly hated losing year in and year out the against the pistons, yet he never left the bulls.

Also, your post seems to imply a willingness to concede that Jordan's game is more aesthetically pleasing; is that a fair inference for me to draw?

Heej, I don’t disagree that Jordan was very much fourtunate, but you’re formulation of his “incomparable” fortune sounds hyperbolic, perhaps I’m quibbling over semantics. Yes indeed, Jordan got Pippen, but Pippen wasn’t really physically and mentally prepared to be a major championship piece until the 1991 season when Jordan was close to 30 years old. For comparison Lebron was 26 when he joined Miami compared to Jordan at 28 in 1991; for Jordan to go on to win as much he did in the twilight of his 20’s and well into his 30’s (though admittedly his last 3 were won in part due to the overall weakness of the league’s talent in the mid 90’s, but even still, Jordan was well past his atheistic prime and managed to bag 3 straight titles—a very difficult feat in any era). Jordan deserves credit for preserving his game by honing it in in ways increasingly less reliant on raw and explosive athleticism. And I will raise a speculative observation: Lebron doesn’t know what it’s like to win 3 straight titles and deal with the flipside of being more heavily scrutinized: being universally adored to a unhealthy degree. Yeah, Lebron has won 2 straight, but the history of the game has shown that that is a far less exceptional accomplishment than willing 3 straight, despite it “only” being a 1 ring difference. Jordan’s first, and also 2nd 3-peat needs to be contextualized. Aside from Russel’s Celtics, nobody had won 3 straight (unless I’m forgetting something); Jordan pulling it off the first time, then to do it AGAIN must have felt mythical. LeBron’s lesser 2-peat came on the heels of two MJ 3-peats, and Shaq and Kobe’s 3-peat, and has been followed by the Warriors 2-peat; racking up rings like that was much more historically commonplace when Lebron started playing, so the historic sense of accomplishment leading to the sense that one can now retire is something that Jordan felt in a way Lebron simply never could. In a weird way, it’s the fact that lebron has lost so much in the finals that has lead him to exhibit the parallel greatness of longevity in a way Jordan didnt; Lebron has so often been close to the mountain top and yet fallen short (largely not due to himself) that the thirst for getting all the way to the mountain top has remained in Lebron in a way very unlikely for somebody whose won to a historic level and over a historic stretch.

Also, perhaps winning 3 straight titles, compounded by the no doubt psychological difficulties attendant upon being (nearly) universally worshipped and adored (whose potentially negative mental impact people understate in my judgement, simply because it’s alleged to be better than the greater scrutiny Lebron and other’s have received) and having your dear father go missing, find out he was murdered and left to rot over the pettiest of material things. And to make matters worse, many in the media and public start concocting savage conspiracy theories that it’s YOUR fault your father met such a miserable and degrading end. I’m sure his dad’s death hugely impacted how he saw the importance of “winning” and even playing basketball, as his poignant and perhaps even noble stint in the JUNIOR MLB—a context in which he freely deprived himself of the familiar and earned recognition of being the absolute best which he formerly enjoyed and all the awe, praise, and support of the wider world. This self-abdication on Jordan’s part is a dimension of the MJ story that find genuinely compelling as it’s rooted in a real off-the-court crisis and trauma.

On the Jordan quote posted above from the cigar interview, I take the point of the quote, but I do nonetheless think there are aspects of MJ’s career that will continue to hold up remarkably well. To name some of them: Jordan will always have an unimpeachable record in the finals; Jordan will never have an unmitigated stain in his career like Lebron did in the 2011 Finals, and to a lesser extent 2010; Jordan elevated a franchise and won all his titles with the team that drafted him, and aside from the Wizard years, he played his entire career with them. Despite the Heat not turning out to be the long-term powerhouse Lebron thought they would be, the optics of his Decision to team up with other elite players just doesn’t look good in comparison to Jordan.

I hear you KTM_2813. All I’m saying is that the best of all possible scenarios would be to be a historic champion with the team that drafted you. Jordan’s career matches that ideal better.

Hi KTM_2813,

I think the real "blemish" of Lebron's going to the Heat was that it plausibly seemed like an act of stacking the stack in his favor by teaming up with other elite players. I don't think leaving one's team is particularly unpalatable, its when you leave your team to form a team with a stupendous competitive advantage. Lebron failing in 2011 obviously adds to the odiousness of the optics of him trying to "game" the system.

Ainosterhaspie,

I agree with you that "The contention that a player should leave his legacy in the hands of an incapable GM is absurd." All i'm saying is that the optics of Lebron's formation of the Big 3 in Miami is much less of an organic development (i.e., he left his original team/"hometown"; he joined players who had their own independent histories well before playing with him, including Wade being a FMVP before Lebron and serious MVP candidate who also to some degree himself mentored Lebron), whereas MJ's success was or at least feels much more organic and intrinsic---he had a history in Chicago before Pippen (and Grant) came along, he was a key (but of course hardly the sole) influence in their own respective developments into eventual Championship caliber players. This difference between organic and non-organic story arcs, fairly or unfairly, will remain, in my judgement, an edge in favor of MJ's legend over Lebron's in the minds of many, and at a visceral gut-level, I understand why. Not to get too speculative, but part of me thinks that Jordan's story maps onto deep-rooted predispositions, perhaps even psychically inherited archetypes, influencing the type of story we naturally find attractive or compelling. I suspect the sense (even if our narrative of it is a simplification) of organic development in MJ's career is what gives its more "real" or "uncontrived" feel relative to Lebron.

Hey Cavsfansince84,

I exaggerated calling it stupendous. But Lebron intentionally tried to give himself a major competitive advantage (though 2012-2014 proved him wrong), as his "not 1, not 2..." comments indicate. Also, I give Lebron credit for his HEat titles; on most days I now have Lebron as my personal GOAT.

Hey D.Brasco,

It was a joke, but jokes are revealing too--after exaggeratedly saying up to "not 7", Lebron states in a rather serious tone "I really believe it [i.e., that the Heat would win a lot of titles]".

Lebron expected the Miami Heat to be a long-term title powerhouse and that is why he wanted to form that team...he clearly miscalculated.

Here's a link to the statement:

Watch on YouTube

[Colbinii]

Some would go as far as say Jdw38 is a...logic baller

[Jdw38]

Hey homecourtloss,

Here’s a suggestion: Why don’t you look at my FULL posting history.

[Heej]

Lmaoo I'm boutta get my block game like ADs

Btw anyone else excited about the potential Christmas return?

[Dupp]

Lmaoo I'm boutta get my block game like ADs

Btw anyone else excited about the potential Christmas return?

Not really. While it’s fun seems like a quick turnaround. Would like more rest for lebron.

[Lakers LeBron]

Hey homecourtloss,

Here’s a suggestion: Why don’t you look at my FULL posting history.

I kind of don't want to reveal why your profile shows that you're using this account to troll for MJ because it will just make your next attempt to troll more effective

[Dupp]

I only just brushed over his posts and then his and 1d posts in his profile and does t really seem like troll.


I put zero effort into looking though and didn’t really read many posts itt.

[homecourtloss]

Hey homecourtloss,

Here’s a suggestion: Why don’t you look at my FULL posting history.

I kind of don't want to reveal why your profile shows that you're using this account to troll for MJ because it will just make your next attempt to troll more effective

[toodles23]

Lmaoo I'm boutta get my block game like ADs

Btw anyone else excited about the potential Christmas return?

Not really. While it’s fun seems like a quick turnaround. Would like more rest for lebron.

It's not like these guys just went through a full season though, Lebron should be much fresher now than he usually would be at the end of a playoff run. A Christmas start would still give him a 3.5 month break.

[Dupp]

Lmaoo I'm boutta get my block game like ADs

Btw anyone else excited about the potential Christmas return?

Not really. While it’s fun seems like a quick turnaround. Would like more rest for lebron.

It's not like these guys just went through a full season though, Lebron should be much fresher now than he usually would be at the end of a playoff run. A Christmas start would still give him a 3.5 month break.

Yeah fair enough. Honestly whatever the players vote they want that’s all good with me. Whatever they feel is what I want.

[Greyhound]

Lmaoo I'm boutta get my block game like ADs

Btw anyone else excited about the potential Christmas return?

Not really. While it’s fun seems like a quick turnaround. Would like more rest for lebron.

It's not like these guys just went through a full season though, Lebron should be much fresher now than he usually would be at the end of a playoff run. A Christmas start would still give him a 3.5 month break.

The Lakers won on October 11th.

That would be about 2.5 months.

———-

With such a short turn around, I would prefer roster continuity over acquisition overhaul. It could help the Lakers get out of the gates faster.

[DatAsh]

Really hate all the Jordan vs Lebron stuff being in the Lebron thread

Can't we just appreciate Lebron and this current/upcoming season in this thread? Jordan vs Lebron has been beaten to death and I don't think anyone is changing anyone's mind. Too much emotion involved(on both sides).