91 ECF Game 2: Jordan, Free Throws, and Garbage Time

[freethedevil]

Well, no, because the context where you could have such nice stats and such an underwhemlming game didn't exist. Lebron's supporting casts in 09 and 2012 were not capable of effectievly ending a playoff game against quality competition without lebron by the third quarter.

This is not true, there were games in both playoff runs when his team did better without him than with him. Not many, but they existed. Besides, 2012 Heat team wasn't bad supporting cast at all and Wade was still superstar in that season.

Besides, you basically want to criticize Jordan for having good team. It's nonsense, you don't get credit for a loss when you play badly. You don't get credit for a win when you play badly either.
Now that's just a blatant strawman. Jordan is only being criticized for playing badly and the question is if lebron in his best playoff runs had anything comparably bad to **** the bed in half of a highly pivotal playoff series against elite defensive competition.

Jordan's team is only being brought up in relation to how much jordan's stats may misrepresent how well he played induvidually, since this kind of gross misrepresentation is only really possible if you play much better in the 4th quarter than you do during the first three quarters but your team ends the game before the 4th quarter in spite of you. That si vastly more likely to happen with great supporting casts than weaker supporting casts.

Jordan's cast means that there's the potential for a massive descrpancy betwen starsheet and quality of play in a way that simply isn't plausible for lebron outside of a few select seasons.

And all of Lebron's games in 2009 against the magic were single digit EXCEPT for the game he played bad in. And Lebron specifcally did better in the first three quarters that game so there certainly wasn't any free throw stat padding.

Again, having better or worse team doesn't make you better. Besides, in game 2 he had 2nd worst +/- on his team in 1 point win.

Also, that is not the question, the question is did lebron have games comparably or near comparably as bad as jordan's first two games against the pistons, and I thin the answer is almost certainly no unless the op is lying about the game.

Well, assuming that this biased man really shows objective analysis here...
callig him biased is weak. He's presented evidence and made verifiable claims. If you're not willing to dispute them his bias is kinda irrelevant here. Its much better than "well no player is perfect so they must be equal" which seems to be your line of reasoning.
LeBron had his share of struggling against Celtics and Pacers in 2012. He also had some weak games against Orlando despite huge stats. I don't know who had lower lows, but I wouldn't expect to see significant difference.
There's only one game I can think off which could be rated as bad vs the magic unless you decide that turnovers are more important than everything else and even then it was a much better performance from lebron when the game was actually in question.

And? Perfection is not neccesary to be "less imperfect". Jordan and pippen both being imperfect does not suddenly make their playoff runs comparable.

I know about this, but you're trying to push strange agenda that James doesn't have bad games at his peak and then you try to find season when he didn't have them. Why don't we look at their overall primes? Bigger samples show more consistent picture. Anyone had some imperfections - if you think that 2009 or 2012 are James peak, then why can't we look at 2010 or 2011? It's not like James magically forgot how to play basketball for these two in-between years.

why would we use 2011 to assess lebron in 2009? If one must retroactively apply a different version of a player to knock what a player did in the past, I'd say that's solid evidence that it's not really knocable. You're cherrypicking a timeframe here where its okay to retroactively revise history. Should we retoractively decide lebron's 2011 was great by applying 2020, 2017 and 2018 to it? Lebron has more good series we can retroactively apply than mj you know.

And anyway y first question was in regards to the peak prokject which is very specifically about single seasons. And yeah, being **** for a half of a pivotal series is a pretty major knock imo. Giannis has been lambasted for more forgivable chokes during his ecf loss to the raptors. Considering defense, its pretty easy to see jordan's 91 ecf as weaker than giannis's 2019 ecf and that "peak" didn't even finish in the top 20.

[Firebird1]

Lmao, Jordan is still the GOAT. Nothing will change it.

[freethedevil]

I think dismissing this as “agenda” is a bit lazy. And granted the necessary response requires work — “here are games in that series where 1991 Jordan was awesome and hard carried”, or “yeah maybe 1990/92 deserves more credit as his peak because of he performed against ______”, or “Here are these games against the Celtics/Pacers/Spurs where Lebron supposedly at his peak was just as disappointing.” But assuming it applies to every player in their peak seasons is not a real counter.

Also 2013 Lebron as a peak is a divisive debate for those reasons. Some have 2012 and some have 2009. But we never see that debate with Jordan, and maybe we should. Especially with how willing people are willing to comb through Lebron’s numbers in the 2014 Finals for “garbage time” criticisms, it certainly is odd how the same drive to nitpick is never applied to Jordan.

If we're looking at the same, "who had the least drop offs" lens, I wonder if 89 and 92 mj would be better than MJ's 91.

[mailmp]

Superficially glancing at the boxscore, there are certainly comparable elements of the gap between Jordan and his teammates in the 1990 ECF the way there is a gap between Lebron and his teammates in the 2009 ECF — albeit with Jordan’s numbers appearing demonstrably less otherworldly.

[nolang1]

Yeah, the pre-championship Jordan is quite comparable to Giannis. The main difference would be Jordan being much better at pulling up for mid-range jumpers and making free throws while Giannis could make up for that somewhat with the increased length making him a better finisher and a more versatile defender.

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

This thread and the initial analysis is a hysterical, tendentious reach.

[Gregoire]

Lebron had a lot of 2 games streaks far worse in his "peak" years:

2012 a lot of terrible games against the Celtics and Pacers before games 4-6 against the Pacers and games 6-7 against the Celtics.

2009 LeBron 4-6 games vs Orlando were far worse. Padded stats, melting down in second halves all the time, and Howard had injured second star, so Lebron lost to worse team. His defense was non-existent. How can you even compare it to MJ?

2013 1-5 games of finals were terrible offensively. Defense not so good.
2014, 2017 and 2018 - huge padding stats in terrible losing finals, his defense was non-existent, so some games in finals are absolutely worse
2016 - 1-4 games in finals were very bad.

[Blackmill]

2012 terrible games against the Celtics and Pacers before games 4-6 against the Pacers and games 6-7 against the Celtics.

2009 LeBron 4-6 games vs Orlando were far worse. His defense was non-existent. Not to mention he lost.

2013 1-5 games were terrible
2014, 2017 and 2018 - huge padding stats in terrible losing finals, His defense was non-existent.
2016 - 1-5 games in finals were very bad.

This is one of the wildest takes I've seen in this thread. There's some really good games that you've just labeled as "very bad" or worse.

[freethedevil]

Lebron had a lot of 2 games streaks far worse in his "peak" years:

2012 terrible games against the Celtics and Pacers before games 4-6 against the Pacers and games 6-7 against the Celtics.
only game that i can think off seeming remotely comprable would be game 3 vs the pacers and even then, lebron actually played extremely good defense.
2009 LeBron 4-6 games vs Orlando were far worse. His defense was non-existent. Not to mention he lost.
lmao no. Also have to seriously question how people came to the conclusion lebron's defense was anything but great that series. I dont really see how "him losing" matters if he created more, defended more, and scored more effeciently than jordan did (against a red hot version of a better team/defense than the pistons) which seems extremely likely unless you think the OP's stats are fabricated.
2013 1-5 games were terrible
sure, offensively, lebron still played extremely good defense
2014, 2017 and 2018 - huge padding stats in terrible losing finals, His defense was non-existent.
lebron's best stat games came in wins or close losses, so, eh? And again, no one on this thread has presneted those as goat level seasons sooo
2016 - 1-5 games in finals were very bad.game 5 was bad? wut. Lebron's defense, playmaking , and scoring were all very good. Lebron was good throughout game three as well and the bulk of his scoring did not come during garbage time. And again, these are not lebron's 'best' playoff runs.

[twyzted]

DISCLAIMER: This is not my work. I was asked to post this by a discorder who goes by the name of "BLOCKED by BAM"

I like basketball. I like watching basketball. 2 days ago I rewatched Game 2 of the 91 ecf.

Despite a terrible game 1 from MJ, the Bulls were 1 game up on the pistons. Surely the best player on the planet would show up for game 2? Going by the statsheet jordan scoring 35 on 69% shooting sounds incredible.

If you watch the game, you might see something else:

Watch on YouTube

The bulls full court press, grant and cartwright's offensive rebounding, and pippen putting all of the pistons frontline in foul trouble effectively ended the game by the 4th quarter. Jordan....had very little to do with that.

First here's my account of jordan's contributions of the game:

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press. His team expanded the lead from 8 to 16 went jordan went off, had their lead halved when jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when jordan went off in the third quarter.

Imagine giannis's offense vs the 19 raptors, but without the dpoy calibre defense and you'd get Mj's first two games against the pistons. To his credit when driving he did draw triple teams, but jordan only drove 4 or 5 times and had a slew of turnovers in the third quarters. When he didn't have the ball he was quite effectively contained by dumars with the pistons focusing the brunt of their defensive attention on Pippen. Defensively Jordan was a non factor doing about as much bad as good. Otherwise he was either on the bench, missing jumpers, or moving around trying, and (mostly) failing, to shake dumars off.

Jordan's 'explosion' came in the 4th quarter with the bulls already up 15, the pistons were all in foul trouble(not due to jordan), and it only really took off in the last 5 or so minuites when the pistons decided to just foul MJ on every possession and try to make a miraculous comeback by spamming jumpers on the other end.

Simply put, jordan was terrible. Its just 2 games, but it seems to align with what I remember from the 90's:

A. Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins

B. Jordan' wasn't anything close to inevitable, sometimes being given massive credit(and recieving no blame) for terrible-mediocre performances

C. Jordan struggled mightily against great defenses

D. Jordan's defense often shrunk in the playoffs before his first retirement. Generally, in the playoffs, both grant and pippen were significantly more valuable

E. Anyone who uses "if you watched him..." is just not in the right. Jordan's reputation is drastically better than what Jordan actually accomplished on the court. IE: He tried his best to choke a 3-0 lead in the 96 finals but resident '90's experts' keep trying to tell 'nephews' all about the 70 win team he lead.

I'll need to find time to rewatch games 3 and 4, but playing like 2019 Kyrie for two of the most pivotal playoff games of your supposed apex isn't a great start.

For your consideration realgm

After 3 quarters
Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to.
Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt
So 9/16 56% is horrible game?

Pippen was rarely double teamed.
But had drawn 9 fouls.
Jordan was guarding Dumars the whole game and was helping with the full court press then falling to guard dumars.
He sat for 4-5 minutes in 2nd quarter.
Jordan played the whole 3rd quarter and scored 12 pts of 27 bulls points.
Basicly he was playing like he always did he did not need the ball at all times he let the offense flow and was running keeping his defender chasing.

I was gonna watch the 4th but since through first 3 was nothing like described i opted to stop wasting time.

A. Jordan usually took over in the 4th in terms of scoring.
Game 6 vs portland in 92 finals 81-78 portland 8:30~ left.
Jordan comes in scores 12of19 bulls points to close the series 97-93. Shoots 5/7 2/2 fts 2rbs 2ast 2stls in those minutes.
I also dont understand how he stat pads in blowout wins in terms of clutch. If other team is leading by a large margin. You dont count clutch stats.

B. I guess that he did not watch 93, 97 or 98 finals.
Or maybe jordan was stat pading 55 points in a game won by 6? Or scoring 42 in 3 point win? Ofcourse he had bad games everyone does.

C. Point being? I mean everyone does.

D. No it did not.

E. He was guarded by the dpoy. And no one shot the ball well in that series pippen 34% kukoc 43% harper 37%. But jordan choked OK. Sorry but his reputation was earned you dont luck into 2x three peats. That 96 bulls team lost 13 games for the whole season playoffs included.

[freethedevil]

I was gonna watch the 4th but since through first 3 was nothing like described i opted to stop wasting time.

BLOCKED BY BAM's account:

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press. His team expanded the lead from 8 to 16 went jordan went off, had their lead halved when jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when jordan went off in the third quarter.

Your Account:

After 3 quarters
Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to.
Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt
So 9/16 56% is horrible game?

Uhuh yeah, "totally not as described." Not even finishing the game on the basis that Blocked was bsing when your own version of events is virtually identical to his, really makes me skeptical you're right where you disagree with him. Bam''s version is literally a more fleshed out version of yours and Bam actually seems to have tracked jordan's defense, creation, ect, ect.

And yes, when assessing a supposedly goat level season, playing like that for half of a pivotal series should be scrutinized assuming jordan is being held to the same standards as everyone else.

Sorry but his reputation was earned you dont luck into 2x three peats.

Well, given you've basically just verified bam's version of events, it would seem he did luck into not being 0-2 down against detroit. You are aware that if you lose in the ecf you dont get to three peat right?

hat 96 bulls team lost 13 games for the whole season playoffs included.

Now does that the bulls do a measure of what Jordan did? Jordan definitely did luck into not blowing a 3-0 lead in the most pivotal series of that season, and again, if they lose no three peat. Unless we ignore jordan replicating curry's worst finals performance while healthy on a 72 win team, or replicating giannis's worst choke jobs(-defense) during what is often touted as "the greatest season ever", it seems pretty hard to argue Jordan didn't luck into two of the rings that were neccesary for his two thre peats.

E. He was guarded by the dpoy. And no one shot the ball well in that series pippen 34% kukoc 43% harper 37%. But jordan choked OK

Ah yes, lets hold a supposed goat candidate(largely on the basis of his ofense) to the same standards as pippen, kukoc and harper lmao.

[nate33]

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press.

How is this a terrible game?

20 points on 16 shots is basically like going 10/16. So he had 20 points on 62.5% shooting, 5 assists, 2 boards and 4 turnovers in 75% of a game. If he kept that pace up through the 4th, he would have finished with 27 points on 62% shooting, 6 assists, 3 boards and 5 turnovers against one of the best defenses ever assembled. That's not a legendary game or anything, but it's a solid game.

[freethedevil]

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press.

How is this a terrible game?

20 points on 16 shots is basically like going 10/16. So he had 20 points on 62.5% shooting, 5 assists, 2 boards and 4 turnovers in 75% of a game. If he kept that pace up through the 4th, he would have finished with 27 points on 62% shooting, 6 assists, 3 boards and 5 turnovers against one of the best defenses ever assembled. That's not a legendary game or anything, but it's a solid game.

not sure why you're using fg%. His efficency was league average on moderate volume, so even if we just go purely off of scoring(ignoring everything else), it was meh.

What makes the game horrible is everything that isn't scoring. Average-below average defense, getting 4 turnovers on 7 shots created, having no ball handling responsibility ect. Assuming the non-scoring description of events are accurate, jordan being average-above average as a scorer and a nonfactor or ineffecient otherwise while essentially being given the responsibility of durant on the 17 warriors is pretty bad.

And it would seem, at least stastically, he had a similar performance in game 1 which means he played subpar for half of one of two crucial series these playoffs. I'd think if you rate 91 on the same level or higher than any other season, emulating 2019 giannis's offense against the raps( who also were one of the best postseason defenses ever), this should be considered a major knock.

The other, more potentially pressing concern is how this game looks superfically. If you go on bball reference it looks like an ATG level performance, and that's almost entirely a result of his team being one of the few in history that's good enough to end most postseason games by the third quarter. If its --just one game-- than a rs heavy oriented analysis can still rate 91 on the level it usually rated. But if this is something that happens semi-frequently directly as a result of these bulls(who aren't synonymous with jordan) being so good, then the stastical footprint of jordan, and atg's in general on historicallly dominant teams comes into serous question.

Now ofc people will say "thats why you watch the games" but we've had people citing their eyetests for a long time since jordan's retirement, and somehow, this never seems to have come up, despite specifcally citing jordan's stats this series and this playoff run.

FWIW, I recall the bulls blowing out everyone before this series, and jordan getting lots and lots of free throws vs the knicks. The announcers also said he'd been cold in the second round from the field in the openin og the pistons game 2. Might be worth rewathing just exactly when in the game jordan was scoring those points in the second round

[twyzted]

Spoiler:

I was gonna watch the 4th but since through first 3 was nothing like described i opted to stop wasting time.

BLOCKED BY BAM's account:

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press. His team expanded the lead from 8 to 16 went jordan went off, had their lead halved when jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when jordan went off in the third quarter.

Your Account:

After 3 quarters
Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to.
Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt
So 9/16 56% is horrible game?

Uhuh yeah, "totally not as described." Not even finishing the game on the basis that Blocked was bsing when your own version of events is virtually identical to his, really makes me skeptical you're right where you disagree with him. Bam''s version is literally a more fleshed out version of yours and Bam actually seems to have tracked jordan's defense, creation, ect, ect.

And yes, when assessing a supposedly goat level season, playing like that for half of a pivotal series should be scrutinized assuming jordan is being held to the same standards as everyone else.

Sorry but his reputation was earned you dont luck into 2x three peats.

Well, given you've basically just verified bam's version of events, it would seem he did luck into not being 0-2 down against detroit. You are aware that if you lose in the ecf you dont get to three peat right?

hat 96 bulls team lost 13 games for the whole season playoffs included.

Now does that the bulls do a measure of what Jordan did? Jordan definitely did luck into not blowing a 3-0 lead in the most pivotal series of that season, and again, if they lose no three peat. Unless we ignore jordan replicating curry's worst finals performance while healthy on a 72 win team, or replicating giannis's worst choke jobs(-defense) during what is often touted as "the greatest season ever", it seems pretty hard to argue Jordan didn't luck into two of the rings that were neccesary for his two thre peats.

E. He was guarded by the dpoy. And no one shot the ball well in that series pippen 34% kukoc 43% harper 37%. But jordan choked OK

Ah yes, lets hold a supposed goat candidate(largely on the basis of his ofense) to the same standards as pippen, kukoc and harper lmao.

I was gonna watch the 4th but since through first 3 was nothing like described i opted to stop wasting time.

BLOCKED BY BAM's account:

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press. His team expanded the lead from 8 to 16 went jordan went off, had their lead halved when jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when jordan went off in the third quarter.

Your Account:

After 3 quarters
Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to.
Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt
So 9/16 56% is horrible game?

Uhuh yeah, "totally not as described." Not even finishing the game on the basis that Blocked was bsing when your own version of events is virtually identical to his, really makes me skeptical you're right where you disagree with him. Bam''s version is literally a more fleshed out version of yours and Bam actually seems to have tracked jordan's defense, creation, ect, ect.

And yes, when assessing a supposedly goat level season, playing like that for half of a pivotal series should be scrutinized assuming jordan is being held to the same standards as everyone else.

I wrote this in reply to his claims

After 3 quarters
Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to.
Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt
So 9/16 56% is horrible game?

Pippen was rarely double teamed.
But had drawn 9 fouls.
Jordan was guarding Dumars the whole game and was helping with the full court press then falling to guard dumars.
He sat for 4-5 minutes in 2nd quarter.
Jordan played the whole 3rd quarter and scored 12 pts of 27 bulls points.
Basicly he was playing like he always did he did not need the ball at all times he let the offense flow and was running keeping his defender chasing.

Not that cheery picked statline you choose

The guy paints a lot worse picture then it is.
9/16 is is not a horrible game
He did not mention how many shots he made
He had 3 turnover not 5.
He played the whole 3rd quarter and scored 12 of those points in that time when the bulls increased the lead again not on the bench like he said

And yes, when assessing a supposedly goat level season, playing like that for half of a pivotal series should be scrutinized assuming jordan is being held to the same standards as everyone else.

Again 9/16 is not playing bad

Sorry but his reputation was earned you dont luck into 2x three peats.

Well, given you've basically just verified bam's version of events, it would seem he did luck into not being 0-2 down against detroit. You are aware that if you lose in the ecf you dont get to three peat right?

Well in that cherry picked quote you picked it might seem so but no he played well that game not his best but for from what the guy wrote. But yes being 0-2 means no title what a great hot take
Pippen was playing great that game so Jordan shouldve shot because reasons?

hat 96 bulls team lost 13 games for the whole season playoffs included.

Now does that the bulls do a measure of what Jordan did? Jordan definitely did luck into not blowing a 3-0 lead in the most pivotal series of that season, and again, if they lose no three peat. Unless we ignore jordan replicating curry's worst finals performance while healthy on a 72 win team, or replicating giannis's worst choke jobs(-defense) during what is often touted as "the greatest season ever", it seems pretty hard to argue Jordan didn't luck into two of the rings that were neccesary for his two thre peats.

You know Lebron has 3 finals who are worse than that 1 jordan had?

Also in 13 Ray Allen saved him big time
22ppg 43% 31%71% first 5 games
Then in game 6
then in game 6 he shot 43% 20% 75% 10rbs 11ast 6to 32pts -1 on the floor

E. He was guarded by the dpoy. And no one shot the ball well in that series pippen 34% kukoc 43% harper 37%. But jordan choked OK

Ah yes, lets hold a supposed goat candidate(largely on the basis of his ofense) to the same standards as pippen, kukoc and harper lmao.

OK but he won and i only pointed out that everyone shot badly. And it was ~most of lbj finals outside of when lebron statpads when he gets sweept

But its obvious that this guy actually did not watch him

Anyone who uses "if you watched him..." is just not in the right. Jordan's reputation is drastically better than what Jordan actually accomplished on the court. IE: He tried his best to choke a 3-0 lead in the 96 finals but resident '90's experts' keep trying to tell 'nephews' all about the 70 win team he lead.

Because unlike your "goat" Jordan did not have to pound the air out of the ball for 20 secs before throwing it to a teammate.
He let his teammates play not watch then if needed he took over.

[magicman1978]

This is a very biased critique being passed off as objective analysis. If this was a bad game, it's extremely easy to pick out bad games from any other GOAT candidate in any prime season. I can use the same biased analysis in LeBrons 09 season against the Magic. You have a poor showing in the elimination game. Game 2 win where he was a -7 and his teammates helped to keep them in the game. Game 4 loss where he was terrible in the 4th and OT (7 TOs).

[mailmp]

It is pretty sad that this is what the discourse devolves to whenever any criticism of Jordan comes up. Rather than superficially saying, “Oh, plus/minus (not available in Jordan’s time...) and turnovers, that means Lebron had the same flaws!!!” maybe conduct some actual analysis of what was happening on the court. But no, much easier to see a film criticism of the golden boy and scream “biased!!!!!” May as well be crying “fake news”.

[70sFan]

It is pretty sad that this is what the discourse devolves to whenever any criticism of Jordan comes up. Rather than superficially saying, “Oh, plus/minus (not available in Jordan’s time...) and turnovers, that means Lebron had the same flaws!!!” maybe conduct some actual analysis of what was happening on the court. But no, much easier to see a film criticism of the golden boy and scream “biased!!!!!” May as well be crying “fake news”.

I'm the first man to criticize Jordan, but this is just... weak attempt. It's clear that the guy posting this had clear bias and wanted to prove something. This is not how analysis should be done.

And no, Jordan is not a "golden boy" to me. I have Kareem, James and Russell ahead of him, with Duncan being close.

[mailmp]

Why is it clear bias. You are the one reading into that. That presumption that anything critical must be biased when it comes to Jordan is the issue. There is no engagement with the analysis beyond assuming equivalents elsewhere or dismissing it off a box score justification. It is a type of reflexive rejection that does not happen with any other player.

[70sFan]

Why is it clear bias. You are the one reading into that. That presumption that anything critical must be biased when it comes to Jordan is the issue. There is no engagement with the analysis beyond assuming equivalents elsewhere or dismissing it off a box score justification. It is a type of reflexive rejection that does not happen with any other player.

I mean, do you think I've never watched this game?

As I said, I'm first to criticize Jordan but let's do it in proper way

[freethedevil]

This is a very biased critique being passed off as objective analysis. If this was a bad game, it's extremely easy to pick out bad games from any other GOAT candidate in any prime season. I can use the same biased analysis in LeBrons 09 season against the Magic. You have a poor showing in the elimination game. Game 2 win where he was a -7 and his teammates helped to keep them in the game. Game 4 loss where he was terrible in the 4th and OT (7 TOs).

Lebron's raw +/- and turnovers do not remotely justify trying to place any of lebron's games vs the magic on the level of jordan's first two against the pistons, lmao. The "biased" analysis is holistic and looks at every aspect of jordan's play, this supposedly "unbiased" analysis does not.


Its' telling the only thing people are talking about is the scoring here.