mailmp wrote:Why is it clear bias. You are the one reading into that. That presumption that anything critical must be biased when it comes to Jordan is the issue. There is no engagement with the analysis beyond assuming equivalents elsewhere or dismissing it off a box score justification. It is a type of reflexive rejection that does not happen with any other player.
I mean, do you think I've never watched this game?
As I said, I'm first to criticize Jordan but let's do it in proper way
It combines eyetest, team context and stats for a holistic assessment of the game.
I'd say its a very good example of "doing things the right way", as evidenced by all your posts here trying to justify why it shouldn't be addressed or drawing terrible equivalencies.
You wouldn't have had to bring up lebron's 2013 or 2011, if the criticism wasn't fair. "Bias" is probably a much bigger factor for anyone who isn't lowering jordan's 91 season when presented with the knowledge he was bad for half of the ecf and then speficially avoiding playoffs runs that lack a similar low point when you try to pull the "this applies to everyone" card.
mailmp wrote:Superficially glancing at the boxscore, there are certainly comparable elements of the gap between Jordan and his teammates in the 1990 ECF the way there is a gap between Lebron and his teammates in the 2009 ECF — albeit with Jordan’s numbers appearing demonstrably less otherworldly.
Don't know how much time Mr. BAm has, but I'd love to see him break down jordan's 89 and 90 runs. Paticularly jordan vs the knicks which had a similar box profile to lebron vs the magic.
mailmp wrote:Why is it clear bias. You are the one reading into that. That presumption that anything critical must be biased when it comes to Jordan is the issue. There is no engagement with the analysis beyond assuming equivalents elsewhere or dismissing it off a box score justification. It is a type of reflexive rejection that does not happen with any other player.
In 70's defense, bam probably is biased, but given Bam's breakdown is a lot better, more focused, and more comprehsnsive than most of the "eyetest" posts I see here, I'm not really sure why Bam being 'biased' should matter one bit.
Bias doesn't really matter if you can't refute what someone is saying.
magicman1978 wrote:This is a very biased critique being passed off as objective analysis. If this was a bad game, it's extremely easy to pick out bad games from any other GOAT candidate in any prime season. I can use the same biased analysis in LeBrons 09 season against the Magic. You have a poor showing in the elimination game. Game 2 win where he was a -7 and his teammates helped to keep them in the game. Game 4 loss where he was terrible in the 4th and OT (7 TOs).
Lebron's raw +/- and turnovers do not remotely justify trying to place any of lebron's games vs the magic on the level of jordan's first two against the pistons, lmao. The "biased" analysis is holistic and looks at every aspect of jordan's play, this supposedly "unbiased" analysis does not.
Its' telling the only thing people are talking about is the scoring here.
There is no discussion about scoring in my post and I thought I made it very clear that my "analysis" was in no way unbiased. Did you watch these two games yourself or are you relying completely on someone's analysis that was looking to confirm his assessment that "Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins"? I find it hard to believe that anyone would consider game 2 "terrible".
freethedevil wrote:DISCLAIMER: This is not my work. I was asked to post this by a discorder who goes by the name of "BLOCKED by BAM"
I like basketball. I like watching basketball. 2 days ago I rewatched Game 2 of the 91 ecf.
Despite a terrible game 1 from MJ, the Bulls were 1 game up on the pistons. Surely the best player on the planet would show up for game 2? Going by the statsheet jordan scoring 35 on 69% shooting sounds incredible.
If you watch the game, you might see something else:
The bulls full court press, grant and cartwright's offensive rebounding, and pippen putting all of the pistons frontline in foul trouble effectively ended the game by the 4th quarter. Jordan....had very little to do with that.
First here's my account of jordan's contributions of the game:
During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press. His team expanded the lead from 8 to 16 went jordan went off, had their lead halved when jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when jordan went off in the third quarter.
Imagine giannis's offense vs the 19 raptors, but without the dpoy calibre defense and you'd get Mj's first two games against the pistons. To his credit when driving he did draw triple teams, but jordan only drove 4 or 5 times and had a slew of turnovers in the third quarters. When he didn't have the ball he was quite effectively contained by dumars with the pistons focusing the brunt of their defensive attention on Pippen. Defensively Jordan was a non factor doing about as much bad as good. Otherwise he was either on the bench, missing jumpers, or moving around trying, and (mostly) failing, to shake dumars off.
Jordan's 'explosion' came in the 4th quarter with the bulls already up 15, the pistons were all in foul trouble(not due to jordan), and it only really took off in the last 5 or so minuites when the pistons decided to just foul MJ on every possession and try to make a miraculous comeback by spamming jumpers on the other end.
Simply put, jordan was terrible. Its just 2 games, but it seems to align with what I remember from the 90's:
A. Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins
B. Jordan' wasn't anything close to inevitable, sometimes being given massive credit(and recieving no blame) for terrible-mediocre performances
C. Jordan struggled mightily against great defenses
D. Jordan's defense often shrunk in the playoffs before his first retirement. Generally, in the playoffs, both grant and pippen were significantly more valuable
E. Anyone who uses "if you watched him..." is just not in the right. Jordan's reputation is drastically better than what Jordan actually accomplished on the court. IE: He tried his best to choke a 3-0 lead in the 96 finals but resident '90's experts' keep trying to tell 'nephews' all about the 70 win team he lead.
I'll need to find time to rewatch games 3 and 4, but playing like 2019 Kyrie for two of the most pivotal playoff games of your supposed apex isn't a great start.
For your consideration realgm
After 3 quarters Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to. Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt So 9/16 56% is horrible game?
Pippen was rarely double teamed. But had drawn 9 fouls. Jordan was guarding Dumars the whole game and was helping with the full court press then falling to guard dumars. .
Alright, I just rewatched the game myself, and this is complete nonsense.
Jordan was not involved in a
Single. Full. Court. Press.
Furthermore Jordan was NOT guarding dumars the whole game. He spent a few possessions on dumars, and only contested a single one of his shots. That contest ended up with MJ fouling him.
Bam's description of events seems pretty accurate.
magicman1978 wrote:This is a very biased critique being passed off as objective analysis. If this was a bad game, it's extremely easy to pick out bad games from any other GOAT candidate in any prime season. I can use the same biased analysis in LeBrons 09 season against the Magic. You have a poor showing in the elimination game. Game 2 win where he was a -7 and his teammates helped to keep them in the game. Game 4 loss where he was terrible in the 4th and OT (7 TOs).
Lebron's raw +/- and turnovers do not remotely justify trying to place any of lebron's games vs the magic on the level of jordan's first two against the pistons, lmao. The "biased" analysis is holistic and looks at every aspect of jordan's play, this supposedly "unbiased" analysis does not.
Its' telling the only thing people are talking about is the scoring here.
There is no discussion about scoring in my post and I thought I made it very clear that my "analysis" was in no way unbiased. Did you watch these two games yourself or are you relying completely on someone's analysis that was looking to confirm his assessment that "Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins"?
I just rewatched the games today actually, his analysis, which broke down jordan's creation, defense and scoring(in otherwords comprehensive analysis) is pretty spot on and its telling that the one attempt at disputing what he described was both
A. essentially identical in regards to a description of events when accurate B. And was outright wrong on both points of contention it held
I can't really speak on how frequent it was, but it is worth noting, in the first round jordan shot similarly poorly from the field vs the knicks, his team blew out the knicks, and jordan's effiency vs the knicks in the series before was almost entirely contingent on freethrows.
Jordan also shot poorly from the field against the sixers, most of the games that series was a blowout, and jordan was getting lots of free throws.
It would seem all the neccesary factors for jordan's incredibly inflated game 2 existed for basically all but two games in the first two rounds. So the op's claim seems quite plausible. Hopefully someone, possibly BAM himself, will have the time to check this out and maybe apply the level of scrutiny applied to jordan's performances consistently applied to everyone else.
freethedevil wrote:DISCLAIMER: This is not my work. I was asked to post this by a discorder who goes by the name of "BLOCKED by BAM"
For your consideration realgm
After 3 quarters Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to. Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt So 9/16 56% is horrible game?
Pippen was rarely double teamed. But had drawn 9 fouls. Jordan was guarding Dumars the whole game and was helping with the full court press then falling to guard dumars. .
Alright, I just rewatched the game myself, and this is complete nonsense.
Jordan was not involved in a
Single. Full. Court. Press.
Furthermore Jordan was NOT guarding dumars the whole game. He spent a few possessions on dumars, and only contested a single one of his shots. That contest ended up with MJ fouling him.
Bam's description of events seems pretty accurate.
@2:24 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot @3:05 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot
Both times no fouls
freethedevil wrote:Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins
How did he statpad clutch stats in blowouts?
Did he stats pad in the 93 finals with 55pts in 6 pt win? Or 42 in 3pt win? 93 finals 51% 40% 69% 46mpg 41ppg 9rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg is this An example of stats padding when bulls won by 4 pts on avg?
So its safe to say that Lebron statpadded his triple double avg in a finals serie where the games where won by~15pts on average.
freethedevil wrote:I just rewatched the games today actually, his analysis, which broke down jordan's creation, defense and scoring(in otherwords comprehensive analysis) is pretty spot on and its telling that the one attempt at disputing what he described was both
A. essentially identical in regards to a description of events when accurate B. And was outright wrong on both points of contention it held
I won't dispute the version of events, which I can't question as I have not watched the game recently. What I do question is how things are portrayed. If you were being objective, would you agree with the following:
A. That the Bulls ended the game by the 4th quarter and Jordan "had very little to do with that". From what I recall, he seemed to play very well in the 3rd and had around 12pts within the flow of the offense on efficient shooting.
B. Jordan had a "slew of turnovers" in the 3rd quarter(s). He had three total in game 2 (his 4 TO assessment was incorrect) and I do not recall a "slew of turnovers" at any point.
C. The Bulls had their lead halved when Jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when Jordan went off in the third quarter. I do not recall Jordan leaving the game in the third.
D. That Jordan "barely handled the ball" is a negative mark against him. Is it not good to play within the flow of the offense when you're not the primary ball handler? 91 Pippen is probably peak Pippen for me - there's nothing wrong with letting Pippen do his thing.
F. That Jordan's offense was equivalent to Giannis's. Giannis couldn't score when his team needed him to and was largely ineffective in the half court
E. That Jordan was just terrible
We'll stay away from the rest of the post as that was clear and obvious bias. Now, some of the above may be true, as I stated - I have not watched the game recently. But I get the feeling that his bias may have factored into how some of the events above were portrayed.
Blackmill wrote: This is one of the wildest takes I've seen in this thread. There's some really good games that you've just labeled as "very bad" or worse.
You mean kinda like the Jordan game sited in the OP?
Blackmill wrote: This is one of the wildest takes I've seen in this thread. There's some really good games that you've just labeled as "very bad" or worse.
You mean kinda like the Jordan game sited in the OP?
Not sure what your point is. Two wrongs don't make a right. Both posts are pretty far from the truth.
freethedevil wrote:I just rewatched the games today actually, his analysis, which broke down jordan's creation, defense and scoring(in otherwords comprehensive analysis) is pretty spot on and its telling that the one attempt at disputing what he described was both
A. essentially identical in regards to a description of events when accurate B. And was outright wrong on both points of contention it held
I won't dispute the version of events, which I can't question as I have not watched the game recently. What I do question is how things are portrayed. If you were being objective, would you agree with the following:
A. That the Bulls ended the game by the 4th quarter and Jordan "had very little to do with that". From what I recall, he seemed to play very well in the 3rd and had around 12pts within the flow of the offense on efficient shooting.
B. Jordan had a "slew of turnovers" in the 3rd quarter(s). He had three total in game 2 (his 4 TO assessment was incorrect) and I do not recall a "slew of turnovers" at any point.
C. The Bulls had their lead halved when Jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when Jordan went off in the third quarter. I do not recall Jordan leaving the game in the third.
D. That Jordan "barely handled the ball" is a negative mark against him. Is it not good to play within the flow of the offense when you're not the primary ball handler? 91 Pippen is probably peak Pippen for me - there's nothing wrong with letting Pippen do his thing.
F. That Jordan's offense was equivalent to Giannis's. Giannis couldn't score when his team needed him to and was largely ineffective in the half court
E. That Jordan was just terrible
We'll stay away from the rest of the post as that was clear and obvious bias. Now, some of the above may be true, as I stated - I have not watched the game recently. But I get the feeling that his bias may have factored into how some of the events above were portrayed.
A. He did start making jumpshots in the third. There was a minuite in the third quarter 4th quarter I couldn't see MJ on the court, but that may just be the footage/my eyes. His third quarter was good, tho i think its important to note, he started making jumpers after pippen, cartwright and grant had put the pistons entire defense in foul trouble. Regardless, over the course of the game
B. You might be right on that one, I saw two turnovers in the third quarters. I figured I might have missed one..
C. Didn't happen in the third quarter, but it happened in the second. or first. Announcers even talked about it.
D. Players who do have to ball handle deserve credit over jordan.
E. That's just a double standard. Jordan shouldn't avoid blame because his team was good enough that he could brick his way to two wins.
F. On average player standards, sure, on great player standards, its a pretty bad game imo.
I have said BAM is probably biased, but I agree with "jordan was bad for half of an important series" and consequently that his 91 season should be lowered.
Also just looking at things on the surface level, he may have had similr issues with the sixers. In a series where three of 5 games were blowouts he shot only 54% and that was mostly a result of freethrows, so...
Did jordan get a massive end of game 2 like spike and still end up with middling effiency? Announcers were saying jordan was shooting cold all playoffs which i initially just dismissed as, oh so he's getting free throws, but in game 2 I only counted two trips to the line before the 4th uarter.
twyzted wrote: After 3 quarters Jordan had scored 20pts, 2 rb, 5ast, 3to. Shot 7/14 2pt 2/2 3pt So 9/16 56% is horrible game?
Pippen was rarely double teamed. But had drawn 9 fouls. Jordan was guarding Dumars the whole game and was helping with the full court press then falling to guard dumars. .
Alright, I just rewatched the game myself, and this is complete nonsense.
Jordan was not involved in a
Single. Full. Court. Press.
Furthermore Jordan was NOT guarding dumars the whole game. He spent a few possessions on dumars, and only contested a single one of his shots. That contest ended up with MJ fouling him.
Bam's description of events seems pretty accurate.
Ok but what is this then? [img]
twyzted wrote:https://i.imgur.com/d6V5AAy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/d6V5AAy.jpg[/img] hmm rewatched the second quarter a second time, jordan actually was involved in two fc presses.
The 1st you mentioned
The second one he went in alone and was fairly ineffective.
Still pippen+grant had at least 4 presses, and cartwright made a couple of low stands.
Finally, even on that one full court press which worked, grant was the bigger factor.
@2:24 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot i stand corrected, jordan contested dumars and didn't foul him once. Most definitey "guarded him the whole game" @3:05 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot Lmao what? Jordan's hand is nowhere near the actual shot. That is not contest, that is jordan getting spinned like a top because he overcommited and putting a hand up to save face
Both times no fouls One time, very impressive.
freethedevil wrote:Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins
How did he statpad clutch stats in blowouts?
Did he stats pad in the 93 finals with 55pts in 6 pt win? Or 42 in 3pt win? 93 finals 51% 40% 69% 46mpg 41ppg 9rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg is this An example of stats padding when bulls won by 4 pts on avg? A superstar has good games? Well done, you've proved that jordan's as good as donovan mitchell. Still doen't change that other players have had better playoff runs with similarly good or better games and no comparably bad games. So its safe to say that Lebron statpadded his triple double avg in a finals serie where the games where won by~15pts on average. Your need to bring up lebron's 17th year in a comparison with jordan's best, speaks volumes yeah.
And even then, lebron did not get most of his points when the game was already a blowout. His **** games are directly reflected as **** in the stat sheet.
freethedevil wrote:Alright, I just rewatched the game myself, and this is complete nonsense.
Jordan was not involved in a
Single. Full. Court. Press.
Furthermore Jordan was NOT guarding dumars the whole game. He spent a few possessions on dumars, and only contested a single one of his shots. That contest ended up with MJ fouling him.
Bam's description of events seems pretty accurate.
Ok but what is this then? [img]
twyzted wrote:https://i.imgur.com/d6V5AAy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/d6V5AAy.jpg[/img] hmm rewatched the second quarter a second time, jordan actually was involved in two fc presses.
The 1st you mentioned
The second one he went in alone and was fairly ineffective.
Still pippen+grant had at least 4 presses, and cartwright made a couple of low stands.
Finally, even on that one full court press which worked, grant was the bigger factor.
@2:24 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot i stand corrected, jordan contested dumars and didn't foul him once. Most definitey "guarded him the whole game" @3:05 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot Lmao what? Jordan's hand is nowhere near the actual shot. That is not contest, that is jordan getting spinned like a top because he overcommited and putting a hand up to save face
Both times no fouls One time, very impressive.
freethedevil wrote:Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins
How did he statpad clutch stats in blowouts?
Did he stats pad in the 93 finals with 55pts in 6 pt win? Or 42 in 3pt win? 93 finals 51% 40% 69% 46mpg 41ppg 9rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg is this An example of stats padding when bulls won by 4 pts on avg? A superstar has good games? Well done, you've proved that jordan's as good as donovan mitchell. Still doen't change that other players have had better playoff runs with similarly good or better games and no comparably bad games. So its safe to say that Lebron statpadded his triple double avg in a finals serie where the games where won by~15pts on average. Your need to bring up lebron's 17th year in a comparison with jordan's best, speaks volumes yeah.
And even then, lebron did not get most of his points when the game was already a blowout. His **** games are directly reflected as **** in the stat sheet.
That clown bam who judging by his discord handle is 15-20 yrs old watches a game. "Jordan was chucking shots and did nothing" terrible game, statpadding his clutch stats in a blowout Says jordan sits most of 3rd quarter when bulls went on a run"
I watch the game Jordan through 3 quarters. Shots 7/14 2pt 2/2 fts 2 rebs 5 assists 2 turnovers. Scores 12 points shooting 5/9 in the third played 12 mins. Guarding dumars 90% of the time.
Pretty much answer everything in the op
You go on some mad rant and take my post cheery pick something to try and comeback. Taking everything out of context.
Again i reply go every single claims you make.
You then went and "watched" the game.
freethedevil wrote: Alright, I just rewatched the game myself, and this is complete nonsense.
Jordan was not involved in a
Single. Full. Court. Press.
Furthermore Jordan was NOT guarding dumars the whole game. He spent a few possessions on dumars, and only contested a single one of his shots. That contest ended up with MJ fouling him.
I literally click a few times on youtube video to prove your watching of the game like your friends is pretty much biased and im not sure you or him watched.
It took me longer to get proper imgur link to embed the picture then finding proof to claims made after not 1 but 2 guys watched a game and dont like watching 90s nba because one guy does not pound the rock the whole game. and i proved everything you said was incorrect
@2:24 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot @3:05 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot
Both times no fouls
Then again you just go on a mad rant.
freethedevil wrote:Your need to bring up lebron's 17th year in a comparison with jordan's best, speaks volumes yeah.
And even then, lebron did not get most of his points when the game was already a blowout. His **** games are directly reflected as **** in the stat sheet.
No that was lebrons 14th season and ohh yes forgot lebron usually does not show up in the 4th. Jordan made more shots then he takes in the 4th.
Also since you are so desperate to find something to prop lebron.
He also sucked in game 6 of ecf in 09. Shot 40% 25% 69% 25 pts -12.
He also choked a 2-1 lead in 10 vs celtics. 27pts @44% 26% 74% with 5topg
Mavs 11. Mean outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals the best in the game was what 4-5th Best player in the series?
13 Ray Allen saved him big time. 22ppg 43% 31%71% first 5 games then in game 6 he shot 43% 20% 75% 10rbs 11ast 6to 32pts -1 on the floor
14 epic beat down by kawhi.
15. Another sub 40% final serie.
And then in 17&18 he got destroyd by his own trick when Kd joined the warriors
Improved the lakers from 35-47 to 37-45 then had to trade everyone go get MoRe HeLp.
38 yr old Jordan improved the wizards from 19-63 to 37-45. By being the only addition to the team. And he missed 20 games. Had Rip Hamilton and Chris Whitney as his best players.
Sure you can find games by Jordan were he played badly. But that was not one of them. But lebron is the king of choking.
Ps. Please tell your friend to stop analysing games maybe bocchia is more of a game for him
freethedevil wrote:I just rewatched the games today actually, his analysis, which broke down jordan's creation, defense and scoring(in otherwords comprehensive analysis) is pretty spot on and its telling that the one attempt at disputing what he described was both
A. essentially identical in regards to a description of events when accurate B. And was outright wrong on both points of contention it held
I won't dispute the version of events, which I can't question as I have not watched the game recently. What I do question is how things are portrayed. If you were being objective, would you agree with the following:
A. That the Bulls ended the game by the 4th quarter and Jordan "had very little to do with that". From what I recall, he seemed to play very well in the 3rd and had around 12pts within the flow of the offense on efficient shooting.
B. Jordan had a "slew of turnovers" in the 3rd quarter(s). He had three total in game 2 (his 4 TO assessment was incorrect) and I do not recall a "slew of turnovers" at any point.
C. The Bulls had their lead halved when Jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when Jordan went off in the third quarter. I do not recall Jordan leaving the game in the third.
D. That Jordan "barely handled the ball" is a negative mark against him. Is it not good to play within the flow of the offense when you're not the primary ball handler? 91 Pippen is probably peak Pippen for me - there's nothing wrong with letting Pippen do his thing.
F. That Jordan's offense was equivalent to Giannis's. Giannis couldn't score when his team needed him to and was largely ineffective in the half court
E. That Jordan was just terrible
We'll stay away from the rest of the post as that was clear and obvious bias. Now, some of the above may be true, as I stated - I have not watched the game recently. But I get the feeling that his bias may have factored into how some of the events above were portrayed.
A. He did start making jumpshots in the third. There was a minuite in the third quarter 4th quarter I couldn't see MJ on the court, but that may just be the footage/my eyes. His third quarter was good, tho i think its important to note, he started making jumpers after pippen, cartwright and grant had put the pistons entire defense in foul trouble. Regardless, over the course of the game
B. You might be right on that one, I saw two turnovers in the third quarters. I figured I might have missed one..
C. Didn't happen in the third quarter, but it happened in the second. or first. Announcers even talked about it.
D. Players who do have to ball handle deserve credit over jordan.
E. That's just a double standard. Jordan shouldn't avoid blame because his team was good enough that he could brick his way to two wins.
F. On average player standards, sure, on great player standards, its a pretty bad game imo.
I have said BAM is probably biased, but I agree with "jordan was bad for half of an important series" and consequently that his 91 season should be lowered.
Also just looking at things on the surface level, he may have had similr issues with the sixers. In a series where three of 5 games were blowouts he shot only 54% and that was mostly a result of freethrows, so...
Did jordan get a massive end of game 2 like spike and still end up with middling effiency? Announcers were saying jordan was shooting cold all playoffs which i initially just dismissed as, oh so he's getting free throws, but in game 2 I only counted two trips to the line before the 4th uarter.
A. So are we now down to he wasn't good for 1.5 games or still rounding up? I personally have not seen any player play flawless through a full post-season run so I'm sure we can start really nitpicking a lot of games - especially ones where a player is deferring to another player with a hot hand.
C. So we agree that Bam's account was at least partially inaccurate. The Lakers had many games this year where they made runs with LeBron on the bench. Should we consider that an indictment on LeBron?
D. This is where we disagree. Jackson wanted Jordan to play more offball - you don't get extra points in my book for being a ball handler. E.g., I wouldn't give James Harden credit over Steph Curry because he handled the ball more.
E. Hmm, interesting that you think I have a double standard because I don't blame Jordan for his lack of assertiveness in deferring when a great teammate has a hot hand. I assume you are speaking generally. And I'm not sure shooting 9 for 16 through three quarters is bricking his way to a win. But I guess we can say LeBron bricked his way to a win in the biggest game of his life...but again, it's all based on perspective and how you want to spin things.
F. Again, perspective - I didn't see anything particularly bad about that game. Was it a great game? No. But not everyone is great every game.
@2:24 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot i stand corrected, jordan contested dumars and didn't foul him once. Most definitey "guarded him the whole game" @3:05 jordan guarding dumars and contests the shot Lmao what? Jordan's hand is nowhere near the actual shot. That is not contest, that is jordan getting spinned like a top because he overcommited and putting a hand up to save face
Both times no fouls One time, very impressive.
How did he statpad clutch stats in blowouts?
Did he stats pad in the 93 finals with 55pts in 6 pt win? Or 42 in 3pt win? 93 finals 51% 40% 69% 46mpg 41ppg 9rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg is this An example of stats padding when bulls won by 4 pts on avg? A superstar has good games? Well done, you've proved that jordan's as good as donovan mitchell. Still doen't change that other players have had better playoff runs with similarly good or better games and no comparably bad games. So its safe to say that Lebron statpadded his triple double avg in a finals serie where the games where won by~15pts on average. Your need to bring up lebron's 17th year in a comparison with jordan's best, speaks volumes yeah.
And even then, lebron did not get most of his points when the game was already a blowout. His **** games are directly reflected as **** in the stat sheet.
That clown bam who judging by his discord handle is 15-20 yrs old watches a game. "Jordan was chucking shots and did nothing" terrible game, statpadding his clutch stats in a blowout Says jordan sits most of 3rd quarter when bulls went on a run" /quote] The clown BAM seems to understand that putting your hand up when your man's gone past you isn't contesting. I rewatched the game and literally adressed every single one of your comments.
magicman1978 wrote: I won't dispute the version of events, which I can't question as I have not watched the game recently. What I do question is how things are portrayed. If you were being objective, would you agree with the following:
A. That the Bulls ended the game by the 4th quarter and Jordan "had very little to do with that". From what I recall, he seemed to play very well in the 3rd and had around 12pts within the flow of the offense on efficient shooting.
B. Jordan had a "slew of turnovers" in the 3rd quarter(s). He had three total in game 2 (his 4 TO assessment was incorrect) and I do not recall a "slew of turnovers" at any point.
C. The Bulls had their lead halved when Jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when Jordan went off in the third quarter. I do not recall Jordan leaving the game in the third.
D. That Jordan "barely handled the ball" is a negative mark against him. Is it not good to play within the flow of the offense when you're not the primary ball handler? 91 Pippen is probably peak Pippen for me - there's nothing wrong with letting Pippen do his thing.
F. That Jordan's offense was equivalent to Giannis's. Giannis couldn't score when his team needed him to and was largely ineffective in the half court
E. That Jordan was just terrible
We'll stay away from the rest of the post as that was clear and obvious bias. Now, some of the above may be true, as I stated - I have not watched the game recently. But I get the feeling that his bias may have factored into how some of the events above were portrayed.
A. He did start making jumpshots in the third. There was a minuite in the third quarter 4th quarter I couldn't see MJ on the court, but that may just be the footage/my eyes. His third quarter was good, tho i think its important to note, he started making jumpers after pippen, cartwright and grant had put the pistons entire defense in foul trouble. Regardless, over the course of the game
B. You might be right on that one, I saw two turnovers in the third quarters. I figured I might have missed one..
C. Didn't happen in the third quarter, but it happened in the second. or first. Announcers even talked about it.
D. Players who do have to ball handle deserve credit over jordan.
E. That's just a double standard. Jordan shouldn't avoid blame because his team was good enough that he could brick his way to two wins.
F. On average player standards, sure, on great player standards, its a pretty bad game imo.
I have said BAM is probably biased, but I agree with "jordan was bad for half of an important series" and consequently that his 91 season should be lowered.
Also just looking at things on the surface level, he may have had similr issues with the sixers. In a series where three of 5 games were blowouts he shot only 54% and that was mostly a result of freethrows, so...
Did jordan get a massive end of game 2 like spike and still end up with middling effiency? Announcers were saying jordan was shooting cold all playoffs which i initially just dismissed as, oh so he's getting free throws, but in game 2 I only counted two trips to the line before the 4th uarter.
A. So are we now down to he wasn't good for 1.5 games or still rounding up? I personally have not seen any player play flawless through a full post-season run so I'm sure we can start really nitpicking a lot of games - especially ones where a player is deferring to another player with a hot hand.
C. So we agree that Bam's account was at least partially inaccurate. The Lakers had many games this year where they made runs with LeBron on the bench. Should we consider that an indictment on LeBron?
D. This is where we disagree. Jackson wanted Jordan to play more offball - you don't get extra points in my book for being a ball handler. E.g., I wouldn't give James Harden credit over Steph Curry because he handled the ball more.
E. Hmm, interesting that you think I have a double standard because I don't blame Jordan for his lack of assertiveness in deferring when a great teammate has a hot hand. I assume you are speaking generally. And I'm not sure shooting 9 for 16 through three quarters is bricking his way to a win. But I guess we can say LeBron bricked his way to a win in the biggest game of his life...but again, it's all based on perspective and how you want to spin things.
F. Again, perspective - I didn't see anything particularly bad about that game. Was it a great game? No. But not everyone is great every game.
A. what? since when did we exclude quarters? FYI, the third quarter was not half the game, it was 1/3 of the part of the game where the result was in quetion. Jordan was good for 1/3 of the game, and terrible for 2/3 of the game resulting in him being bad throughout.
B. On 2020 Lebron? Sure. Do you think 2020 Lebron is going to be voted #1 in the peaks project? Do you think BAM or me, are rating 2020 Lebron as a goat level peak? Bringing up weak lebron playoff runs when we're talking about a peak that has been voted #1 time and time again is a textbook example of applying double standards. Jordan being bad, on goat level standards, for at least half of a series should be lowering(probably 1 and a half when we consider the sixers), should, assuming you think the playoffs aren't trivial, 91 MJ relative to years where Lebron's worst games had him doing signficantly more for hsi team(09, 12).
C. BAM's account had minor inaccuracies that are plenty forgivable when he's breaking down 2 hours of film and don't signficantly weaken his arguments namely
-> Jordan wasn't asked to do very little creatively -> Jordan's defense wasn't good -> Jordan's scoring, despite being asked to do very little relative to what superstars usually do, was average
This gets you a bad game on superstar standards and an atrocious game on the standard of "BEST PLAYER WE'VE EVER SEEM". Jordan was asked to do very little and still wasn't paticularly effecient, that constitutes a terrible game by the same standard we judge other greats.
D. Doing more is more valuable than doing less. If you are playing similarly efficient to mj while asked to shoulder a bigger load, you are playing more.
E. Tell me when lebron bricked his way to a win(or loss) in 09 or 12 while creating little to nothing, being a non-factor defensively, being effectively contained by a dumars level defender, and being asked to shoulder no-sort of creative load.
Lebron's worst two games of the ecf had him creating shot after shot after shot for his teamamtes. BAM told me something, which I verified myself via rewatch:
The first 7 possessions of that Magic series, in a 1 point loss went like this:
-> assist -> assist -> extra pass, three off of lebron's gravity AND ballhandling -> pass leads to free throws -> assist -> wide open three
He went on to score a hypereffecient 49 points, barely turned the ball over, and from what I can recall had multiple possesions deterring dwight in the paint (also hit a mega clutch potential game winner)
^^^^ That is the standard that jordan's 91 needs to be held to if its truly a goat level season. Being asked to do less creatively than kevin durant on the warriors and less defensively than curry while scoring on average ass effiency, after a 6 game stretch where he couldn't even score effeciently against the 16th ranked sixers defense is comparitively pathetic.
Even if I rather generously assume all those free throws he got in the bulls three blow out wins over philadelphia were before garbage time, Jordan's second round, and the conference finals do not stack up to "GOAT" levels by any stretch of imagination.
If people who rate this season as anywhere close to goaty are not raking jordan over coals for this level of mediocrity, they either
A. Do not give the slightest **** about the playoffs B. Are applying extreme double standards.
Every single game here should matter at this level.
twyzted wrote: That clown bam who judging by his discord handle is 15-20 yrs old watches a game. "Jordan was chucking shots and did nothing" terrible game, statpadding his clutch stats in a blowout Says jordan sits most of 3rd quarter when bulls went on a run"
The clown BAM seems to understand that putting your hand up when your man's gone past you isn't contesting. I rewatched the game and literally adressed every single one of your comments.
freethedevil wrote:Still doen't change that other players have had better playoff runs with similarly good or better games and no comparably bad games.
this is the only thing i see in your post that i did not answer. but i kinda already its in my post there is no playoff run by Lebron that does not have a bad game in it.
freethedevil wrote:Alright, I just rewatched the game myself, and this is complete nonsense.
Jordan was not involved in a
Single. Full. Court. Press.
Furthermore Jordan was NOT guarding dumars the whole game. He spent a few possessions on dumars, and only contested a single one of his shots. That contest ended up with MJ fouling him.
I proved the following: he did press full court. he did contest shots without fouling. other then that i really dont care about how many times he did those things.
