Rank playoffs versions (runs) of Jordan and Lebron

[Gregoire]

Rank, please, 10 best Jordan and Lebron playoffs versions each in a vacuum (basically playoffs runs with account to opposition power and matchups)

Something like, for example:
Jordan 90
Lebron 13
...
ect
Lebron 2020
Jordan 87

Some food for thinking
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23651740/ranking-50-greatest-individual-postseasons-modern-nba-history

[freethedevil]

Rank, please, 10 best Jordan and Lebron playoffs versions each in a vacuum (basically playoffs runs with account to opposition power and matchups)

Something like, for example:
Jordan 90
Lebron 13
...
ect
Lebron 2020
Jordan 87

Some food for thinking
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23651740/ranking-50-greatest-individual-postseasons-modern-nba-history

but why?

[Heej]

I voted 2018 LeBron tho 2017 may in fact be the better overall player

[Dutchball97]

I think winning the title is very important in terms of judging play-off runs. That's why I'm a bit lower on 09 LeBron and 90 Jordan. I don't think it's fair to give the same criticism of LeBron's 2017 and 2018 seasons. The Cavs beat everyone in front of them and were then beaten by probably the best team ever. It's not like LeBron's performance was the reason they lost, since no player could've gotten that Cavs team past the Warriors.

I have MJ's 91 run as the best ever though.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Ranking the path to the finals by opponents SRS since 1984 (the beginning of the current playoff format) with all negative teams zeroed out.




HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average) <--57.46% higher than median
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average) <--21.24% higher than median
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average) <--median
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average) <--21.04% lower than median
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average) <--56.28% lower than median

Average difficulty (3+ rings)
Shaq: 4.72
Kobe: 4.71
Jordan: 4.08
Duncan: 3.76
Curry: 3.32
Wade: 3.13
LeBron: 3.13
Magic: 2.50

(VORP/MP)*48*(Avg SRS/Median SRS)=

Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Magic, Wade, Duncan Curry and Shaq

1991 0.217
1992 0.200
1996 0.191
2016 0.191
1993 0.180
2002 0.160
2003 0.159
2000 0.154
2001 0.151
1997 0.150
2001 0.145
2009 0.136
2012 0.136
2017 0.132
2006 0.123
2010 0.121
2007 0.112
2015 0.106
2002 0.102
2013 0.099
2018 0.097
2000 0.097
2005 0.088
1988 0.086
1998 0.085
2012 0.081
2020 0.080
1985 0.078
2014 0.076
1999 0.067
1987 0.060
2013 0.040
2006 0.034

Average:
Jordan 0.1705
LeBron 0.127
Shaq 0.123
Kobe 0.121
Curry 0.112
Duncan 0.100
Wade 0.081
Magic 0.075

[Jdw38]

IMHO, I think Jordan had the higher absolute peak (90/91), and so can be considered the GOAT in that sense perhaps, but that Lebron has done so much over the course of his career that he’s the GOAT in terms of career value.

[No-more-rings]

91 Jordan
90 Jordan
12 Lebron
09 Lebron
92 Jordan
17 Lebron
16 Lebron
89 Jordan
93 Jordan
18 Lebron

I'd probably go with something like that off the cuff. If we were talking total seasons, my list would be a bit different. I was going to put 09 Lebron higher, but honestly it's too much of an outlier statistically for me to really take it at face value.

[MyUniBroDavis]

91 Jordan
90 Jordan
12 Lebron
09 Lebron
92 Jordan
17 Lebron
16 Lebron
89 Jordan
93 Jordan
18 Lebron

I'd probably go with something like that off the cuff. If we were talking total seasons, my list would be a bit different. I was going to put 09 Lebron higher, but honestly it's too much of an outlier statistically for me to really take it at face value.

Hol up

[No-more-rings]

91 Jordan
90 Jordan
12 Lebron
09 Lebron
92 Jordan
17 Lebron
16 Lebron
89 Jordan
93 Jordan
18 Lebron

I'd probably go with something like that off the cuff. If we were talking total seasons, my list would be a bit different. I was going to put 09 Lebron higher, but honestly it's too much of an outlier statistically for me to really take it at face value.

Hol up

????

[MyUniBroDavis]

I voted 2018 LeBron tho 2017 may in fact be the better overall player

2018 bron was probably the definition of wouldnt let his team lose ever lol, till the finals where be wrecked his hand

Im curious if hes defense was act as bad as people say, at least in the playoffs. Looking at synergy his defensive numbers went from below average in the rs to elite in the ps so its prolly a noise thing

People treat bball like its a series of independent possessions made by guys who all do a percentage of things a percentage of the time, but that season was fully one where lebron went anime mode

I also think theres value in that bron could figure out the defenses he went against consistently.

Obv players will do better in wins, but the fact lebron hit 38-9-9 on 58% shooting with only 3.5 turnovers, and NOT playing 5 out is actually insane. 42% of his shots were ag the rim in 2017,second best mark in his career, his mark in 2018 was his career avg, he act shot as much outisde of the paint in 2018 as he did in 2015

Id argue 2016s mightve been his best run personally, he wasnt going 5 out so what he was doing could still be compared straight up to 2000s runs imo.

He went 28-10-8 in the last two series which were the only remotely competetive ones, along with like top top top tier defense against the warriors, sidnt see vs the raptors. 60 TS as well

Im fairly sure that relative TS for top tier scorers pre 1998 was a good deal higher than league avg because of illegal d rules vs 2000s, and id assume that didnt change till around 2018 ish when everyone caught up to the spaxing trend more or less

If im gonna be honest, as good as I thought ADs defense was in the finals id put what lebron did against the warriors defense a tier above it still

But like with 2017 i think he wasnt really taking hard shots and had a good team around him to take easier shots in a way, whereas in 2018 they were helping harder and the cavs couldnt punsih them off of assists

Its probably worth mentioning 2018 bron averaged the most secondary assists and 4th most potential assists in that run as well. I think people dont really get the value of creating 60-70ppg and getting 3 tirnovers thats like act broken.

The cavs dropped 101 points a game. Lebron was providing around 57 points a game directly, without counting secondary assists or scores made off of his action. He was on the court 87.5% of the time, we can round up to 90% cuz obv they score better with bron

He provided 62.5% of his team points directly from assists, and i think they dont account for free throw assists or sexondary assists in assists created

The cavs were 8th in wide open three pointers and 3rd in open threes in frequenxy, in terms of openness they were one of the top teams i think, and in terms of making them, they hit 34% of their Threes off lebron passes.

Upon rechecking, im pretty sure they dont take into account ft assists or secondary assists, so counting all that i think its fair to say he averaged assists on 29 points a game, since 23.2 regular assists points, 3 secondary assist points, 3 ft assist points, so he directly contributed to 70% of his teams points without counting decoy stuff, having 3.5 turnovers, overall

Its like, when ur directly involved in 60-70% of ur teams scoring while ur on the floor without counting the times you wre used as a decoy or someone scored off of ur miss, i think thats a huge thing when ur stillbeing absurdly effecient

Worth mentioning raptors and celtics were the 5th and 1st defense too, although i dont take much stock into def rankings for matchups

[Jordan Syndrome]

Ranking the path to the finals by opponents SRS since 1984 (the beginning of the current playoff format) with all negative teams zeroed out.




HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average) <--57.46% higher than median
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average) <--21.24% higher than median
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average) <--median
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average) <--21.04% lower than median
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average) <--56.28% lower than median

Average difficulty (3+ rings)
Shaq: 4.72
Kobe: 4.71
Jordan: 4.08
Duncan: 3.76
Curry: 3.32
Wade: 3.13
LeBron: 3.13
Magic: 2.50

(VORP/MP)*48*(Avg SRS/Median SRS)=

Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Magic, Wade, Duncan Curry and Shaq

1991 0.217
1992 0.200
1996 0.191
2016 0.191
1993 0.180
2002 0.160
2003 0.159
2000 0.154
2001 0.151
1997 0.150
2001 0.145
2009 0.136
2012 0.136
2017 0.132
2006 0.123
2010 0.121
2007 0.112
2015 0.106
2002 0.102
2013 0.099
2018 0.097
2000 0.097
2005 0.088
1988 0.086
1998 0.085
2012 0.081
2020 0.080
1985 0.078
2014 0.076
1999 0.067
1987 0.060
2013 0.040
2006 0.034

Average:
Jordan 0.1705
LeBron 0.127
Shaq 0.123
Kobe 0.121
Curry 0.112
Duncan 0.100
Wade 0.081
Magic 0.075

It would be nice to see this with SRS relative to the teams own rating. Beat 3 5-SRS level teams as a 10-SRS team is less impressive than beating 3 4-SRS teams as a 5-SRS team.

[oaktownwarriors87]

It would be nice to see this with SRS relative to the teams own rating. Beat 3 5-SRS level teams as a 10-SRS team is less impressive than beating 3 4-SRS teams as a 5-SRS team.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. This would only be relevant if we knew the SRS without said players. We don't. You can't punish a player for making their team better.

[parapooper]

Ranking the path to the finals by opponents SRS since 1984 (the beginning of the current playoff format) with all negative teams zeroed out.




HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average) <--57.46% higher than median
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average) <--21.24% higher than median
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average) <--median
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average) <--21.04% lower than median
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average) <--56.28% lower than median

Average difficulty (3+ rings)
Shaq: 4.72
Kobe: 4.71
Jordan: 4.08
Duncan: 3.76
Curry: 3.32
Wade: 3.13
LeBron: 3.13
Magic: 2.50

(VORP/MP)*48*(Avg SRS/Median SRS)=

Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Magic, Wade, Duncan Curry and Shaq

1991 0.217
1992 0.200
1996 0.191
2016 0.191
1993 0.180
2002 0.160
2003 0.159
2000 0.154
2001 0.151
1997 0.150
2001 0.145
2009 0.136
2012 0.136
2017 0.132
2006 0.123
2010 0.121
2007 0.112
2015 0.106
2002 0.102
2013 0.099
2018 0.097
2000 0.097
2005 0.088
1988 0.086
1998 0.085
2012 0.081
2020 0.080
1985 0.078
2014 0.076
1999 0.067
1987 0.060
2013 0.040
2006 0.034

Average:
Jordan 0.1705
LeBron 0.127
Shaq 0.123
Kobe 0.121
Curry 0.112
Duncan 0.100
Wade 0.081
Magic 0.075

It would be nice to see this with SRS relative to the teams own rating. Beat 3 5-SRS level teams as a 10-SRS team is less impressive than beating 3 4-SRS teams as a 5-SRS team.

[parapooper]

It would be nice to see this with SRS relative to the teams own rating. Beat 3 5-SRS level teams as a 10-SRS team is less impressive than beating 3 4-SRS teams as a 5-SRS team.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. This would only be relevant if we knew the SRS without said players. We don't. You can't punish a player for making their team better.

It's still not as insanely idiotic as counting rings and much more intersting than only looking at opponents

You can also sort of calculate supporting cast SRS from VORP/BPM which is directly proportional to SRS and even lets you include postseason:

[oaktownwarriors87]

It would be nice to see this with SRS relative to the teams own rating. Beat 3 5-SRS level teams as a 10-SRS team is less impressive than beating 3 4-SRS teams as a 5-SRS team.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. This would only be relevant if we knew the SRS without said players. We don't. You can't punish a player for making their team better.

It's still not as insanely idiotic as counting rings and much more intersting than only looking at opponents

You can also sort of calculate supporting cast SRS from VORP/BPM which is directly proportional to SRS and even lets you include postseason:

More interesting than looking at opponents?

You're punishing Jordan for playing all 82 games and leading his team to the #1 SRS in 5 of his 6 Championship seasons.

That should be applauded, not a ding.

That's an ass backwards way of analysing the data.

If anything the regular season SRS should be added to the average, to further demonstrate a teams dominance or lack thereof.

[parapooper]

I'm going to have to disagree with that. This would only be relevant if we knew the SRS without said players. We don't. You can't punish a player for making their team better.

It's still not as insanely idiotic as counting rings and much more intersting than only looking at opponents

You can also sort of calculate supporting cast SRS from VORP/BPM which is directly proportional to SRS and even lets you include postseason:

More interesting than looking at opponents?

You're punishing Jordan for playing all 82 games and leading his team to the #1 SRS in 5 of his 6 Championship seasons.

That should be applauded, not a ding.

That's an ass backwards way of analysing the data.

Noone says it's perfect, but we are comparing it to only using opponent SRS, which contains basically no information about matchup difficulty

In the chart above Jordan playing more actually makes his supporting cast look worse, so it makes his matchups look harder than they actually were

Here is opponent vs supporting cast for postseason only, where LeBron played every game/high minutes as well:

[oaktownwarriors87]

It's still not as insanely idiotic as counting rings and much more intersting than only looking at opponents

You can also sort of calculate supporting cast SRS from VORP/BPM which is directly proportional to SRS and even lets you include postseason:

More interesting than looking at opponents?

You're punishing Jordan for playing all 82 games and leading his team to the #1 SRS in 5 of his 6 Championship seasons.

That should be applauded, not a ding.

That's an ass backwards way of analysing the data.

Noone says it's perfect, but we are comparing it to only using opponent SRS, which contains basically no information about matchup difficulty

Yeah, that's gonna be a no for me dawg.

Punishing players for making their team better and rewarding players on mediocre teams beating other mediocre teams is a horrible, horrible idea.

I'm sorry. It's just really bad.

I might use it if I want find the most overachieving loser. That's where guys like Baron Davis shine.

[Stan]

I don't care if they didn't win a ring, '90 & '18 were their best playoff runs

[Gregoire]

It would be nice to see this with SRS relative to the teams own rating. Beat 3 5-SRS level teams as a 10-SRS team is less impressive than beating 3 4-SRS teams as a 5-SRS team.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. This would only be relevant if we knew the SRS without said players. We don't. You can't punish a player for making their team better.

Not to mention Lebron usually coasted in RS (in comparison to MJ), especially in second half of his career, so real strenght of his team not properly mirrored in SRS. They looked worse by SRS than they were really.

[Gregoire]

I think winning the title is very important in terms of judging play-off runs. That's why I'm a bit lower on 09 LeBron and 90 Jordan. I don't think it's fair to give the same criticism of LeBron's 2017 and 2018 seasons. The Cavs beat everyone in front of them and were then beaten by probably the best team ever. It's not like LeBron's performance was the reason they lost, since no player could've gotten that Cavs team past the Warriors.

I have MJ's 91 run as the best ever though.

Great post! In the same time I think we need to compare stats and numbers of the players from winning and not winning seasons with the grain of salt, because in non-winning seasons team need all they effort and stats, but in winning seasons - not always, so numbers in non-winning seasons would be generally better even if player stayed the same.

Hence, I rank them in vacuum:
91 MJ
92 MJ
16 Lebron
90 MJ
12 Lebron
93 MJ
13 Lebron
18 Lebron
09 Lebron
89 MJ
17 Lebron
96 MJ
88 MJ
15 Lebron
14 Lebron
97 MJ
98 MJ
20 Lebron
10 Lebron