Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[MavsPride99]

Le Crybaby didnt play with a top 25 player? Wade was a fmvp and carried that Heat team to the finals that beat my Mavs. How many fmvp does Pippen have? Wade and Davis are both superior to Pippen. And how did Le Crybaby play against tougher finals competition when they just beat the Heat with Butler, injured Bam, Hero, and Duncan Robinson as their starting 5. Jordans Bulls also beat my Mavs in 6 in 2011. Quit making crap up. And Iggy in the HOF? Lol how long have you been watching the nba? Great post man

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.

Iggy is an FMVP, 3 time champ as a core member of the Warriors Dynasty, 6 time NBA finalist. Worse players with ZERO accomplishments are in the the NBA Tom, Dick and Harry HOF. I could name a few, but you prolly got 10 fingers and internet too.

Do you have a real argument about my post except this childish little rant? Ignorance is bliss though, so maybe just stand pat.

Let me break it down for you. Pippen was an awesome Robin to Jordan who was clearly the Alpha dog. Wade was an Alpha, he wasnt second fiddle to anyone. Old Shaq rode his coattails in Miami. Pippen just wasnt an alpha and wasnt the player prime Wade was. That was still Wades team in 2010 when your boy joined him. Jordan didnt ever play second fiddle to anyone, he didnt have too. Le Bron needed Wade more than Jordan needed Pippen. And just stop with Iggy. Dude played with Curry, Thompson, Green, and KD. Iggy is not a hof player. And why am i making childish comments? You wont come off the le bron thing. Fine, do you. But most people who watched 80s and 90s nba have jordan over him. Deal with it

[Petergrifindor]

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.
.

LOL

Wade and Davis are both way better players than Pippen ever was.

But way way better.

[MavsPride99]

I voted Lebron. I didn't get to watch most of Wilt or Russell play, so have eliminated them from this.

Arguments over Mike -
- Did not need the league to gift him the 'Illegal Defense' Rule to boost his play and the league's TV ratings - http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20/celticshub-whiteboard-illegal-defense-shapes-nba/
- Lebron was guarded by better athletic elite defensive players - Kobe, Iggy, Kawhi, Giannis, KD, PG13
- Lebron wasn't an absolute selfish stat padder loser in his formative and later years.
- Never coached by a top 50 coach, let alone a top 3 coach(Spo might end up in that list, but was far from it in his coaching infancy when Lebron came to the Heat)
- Nobody ever had a top 25 all time player as a number 2.

Read on Twitter

- Did not get to play in a weak expansion league
- Lebron had his public meltdown in 2011 which has no explanations. But so did Mike multiple times, just forgotten rather easily -
1989 ECF after being 2-1 up -
G4 -
23 pts 4 asts - 33%fg vs Isaiah - 27-10-6 @45%
G5 -
18 pts on 8 attempted shots 4 TOs
G6 -
32pts 13 asts @ 50%fg; 8 TOs; 5/11 FT

1996 Finals(Sonics) -
Last 3 games - 23.7 ppg @ 36% (Better numbers than that have seen KD and Kawhi lose 3-1 leads rather than winning FMVP and NBA Titles

1998 Finals -
42.7% fg 2.3 asts 1.7 TOV on 41.2% usg(For context, James Harden's career usage% is 30.7% and he averages 6.3 asts)

- Believe it or not, Lebron played in a stronger Eastern Conference than Mike. Number of teams other than Bulls that had more than one HOFer during their 6 Championship runs - ZERO
- Lebron faced better teams in the finals. If Iggy makes HOF, Lebron played more HOFers in 2017-18 than Mike's all 6 finals.

Read on Twitter

Mike never went against a team with more than 2 HOFers in the Finals.
- Mike had a stronger team, coach and Front Office than any top 10 player EVER during the 2nd threepeat
- Lebron has better clutch shooting percentages and cumulative numbers on 2s and 3s, not even counting the countless assists he's made during those situations.
- Mike never guarded and shut down a great athletic player like MVP Rose. Scottie guarded Magic, Bird and most guard scorers on the opposing teams. Reggie Miller consistently burnt Mike whenever he saw him in any meaningful game.
- Longer better sustained peak. Never quit the game because of mental exhaustion.
- Lebron dragged 2007 and 2018 Cavs to the finals. Won 2 games against GSW 2015 with Dellavedova, Mozgov and JR. Those three might be bigger achievements than Mike's 2nd Championship run, if you think about it.
- Coming back from a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team, which was agreeably playoff hobbled, but not injured like 1991 Lakers(Worthy and Scott). And those three games took a combined stat line of 36.3p - 11.7r - 9.7a - 3st - 3bl + Kyrie's heroics. If that's not clutch, what is?

Pippen career: 16.1 pts 6.4 boards, 5.2 asst and 2 steals
Wade career: 22 pts 4.7 boards 5.4 asst and 1.5 steals
David career; 24 points 10.4 boards and 2.4 blocks a game

So you still think Pippen was a better player than Wade and Anthony Davis? Please explain....

[NZB2323]

Le Crybaby didnt play with a top 25 player? Wade was a fmvp and carried that Heat team to the finals that beat my Mavs. How many fmvp does Pippen have? Wade and Davis are both superior to Pippen. And how did Le Crybaby play against tougher finals competition when they just beat the Heat with Butler, injured Bam, Hero, and Duncan Robinson as their starting 5. Jordans Bulls also beat my Mavs in 6 in 2011. Quit making crap up. And Iggy in the HOF? Lol how long have you been watching the nba? Great post man

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.

Iggy is an FMVP, 3 time champ as a core member of the Warriors Dynasty, 6 time NBA finalist. Worse players with ZERO accomplishments are in the the NBA Tom, Dick and Harry HOF. I could name a few, but you prolly got 10 fingers and internet too.

Do you have a real argument about my post except this childish little rant? Ignorance is bliss though, so maybe just stand pat.

2020 Anthony Davis is clearly better than 1998 Scottie Pippen.

1998 Pippen: 19, 5, and 6 on 53 TS%, 20.4 PER, 6.6 WS, 5 BPM, 2.9 VORP, all-NBA 3rd team, all-defensive 1st team, didn't make the all-star team, 10th in MVP voting, tied for 9th for DPOTY voting.

2020 Anthony Davis: 26, 9, 3, on 61 TS%, 27.4 PER, 11.1 WS, 8 BPM, 5.4 VORP, all-NBA 1st team, all-defensive 1st team, all-star starter, 6th in MVP voting, 2nd in DPOTY voting

Playoffs 98 Pippen: 17, 7 and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER, 2.9 WS, 5.6 BPM, 1.6 VORP

Playoffs 20 Davis: 28, 10 and 4 on 67 TS%, 29.6 PER, 4.5 WS, 8.7 BPM, 2.1 VORP

Also, 2011 Dwayne Wade is clearly better than 1991 Scottie Pippen.

1991 Pippen: 18, 7 and 6, on 56 TS%, 20.6 PER, 11.2 WS, 5.8 BPM, 5.9 VORP, didn't make the all-star team or an all-nba team, 2nd all-NBA defensive team, didn't receive any MVP votes

2011 Wade: 26, 6, and 5 on 58 TS%, 25.6 PER, 12.8 WS, 6.6 BPM, 6.1 VORP, all-star starter, all-nba 2nd team, 7th in MVP voting

Playoffs 91 Pippen: 22, 9, and 6 on 56 TS%, 22 PER, 2.9 WS, 6.5 BPM, 1.5 VORP

Playoffs 11 Wade: 25, 7, and 4 on 57 TS%, 26.3 PER, 3.7 WS, 8.4 BPM, 2.2 VORP

I love Pippen, but he's never been as good as 2011 Wade or 2020 Davis.

[VanWest82]

RealGM is ground zero for the case that the statistical sports revolution has been counter productive. It seems to have made people just barely knowledgeable enough to be dangerous. MJ was a detrimental ball hog who never guarded good players and Pippen was the real star. Lol. I wish we could take some of you kids back in time to make these arguments to guys like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley just to see their reactions to the future generation of fans.

The goat argument still isn't even a real debate to anyone over 40. MJ was firmly in front of Russell, Wilt, and Kareem after his second retirement to everyone but a select few. Let Lebron finish his career before making his case. He's been good enough to get in the conversation but so much of the argument is either incomplete or revisionist history at this point.

[MavsPride99]

RealGM is ground zero for the case that the statistical sports revolution has been counter productive. It seems to have made people just barely knowledgeable enough to be dangerous. MJ was a detrimental ball hog who never guarded good players and Pippen was the real star. Lol. I wish we could take some of you kids back in time to make these arguments to guys like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley just to see their reactions to the future generation of fans.

The goat argument still isn't even a real debate to anyone over 40. MJ was firmly in front of Russell, Wilt, and Kareem after his second retirement to everyone but a select few. Let Lebron finish his career before making his case. He's been good enough to get in the conversation but so much of the argument is either incomplete or revisionist history at this point.

Jordan was a ball hog his first few years in the league but he averaged about 6 assist a game throughout his career. Other than Pippen and Kukoc for a few years, nobody else on the Bulls was a threat to score over 15 a game. Orlando Woolridge maybe. And jordan was all defensive player how many years in the league? Pippen was a better defender but Jordan was still elite.

[Kingsway_fan]

Watch on YouTube

[lazybatman]

Pippen career: 16.1 pts 6.4 boards, 5.2 asst and 2 steals
Wade career: 22 pts 4.7 boards 5.4 asst and 1.5 steals
David career; 24 points 10.4 boards and 2.4 blocks a game

So you still think Pippen was a better player than Wade and Anthony Davis? Please explain....

Scottie's 1993 season stats - 22p 8.7r 5.6s 2.9s

Imagine a guy who could produce like that, just playing as a number 2 for the prime of his career. And Scottie was a top 3-5 defender in the league for his entire career. And Scottie was the primary playmaker of the team, when Mike wasn't scoring. And he used to defend the opposing team's best players.

I'm not gonna say Scottie was better than Wade's 2008 playoffs and maybe that 2008-2010 stretch. But, Mike won 1 playoff game in three years without him. Wouldn't hurt to give him a little respect. Your insecure leader does.. maybe follow suite.

[lazybatman]

Le Crybaby didnt play with a top 25 player? Wade was a fmvp and carried that Heat team to the finals that beat my Mavs. How many fmvp does Pippen have? Wade and Davis are both superior to Pippen. And how did Le Crybaby play against tougher finals competition when they just beat the Heat with Butler, injured Bam, Hero, and Duncan Robinson as their starting 5. Jordans Bulls also beat my Mavs in 6 in 2011. Quit making crap up. And Iggy in the HOF? Lol how long have you been watching the nba? Great post man

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.

Iggy is an FMVP, 3 time champ as a core member of the Warriors Dynasty, 6 time NBA finalist. Worse players with ZERO accomplishments are in the the NBA Tom, Dick and Harry HOF. I could name a few, but you prolly got 10 fingers and internet too.

Do you have a real argument about my post except this childish little rant? Ignorance is bliss though, so maybe just stand pat.

2020 Anthony Davis is clearly better than 1998 Scottie Pippen.

1998 Pippen: 19, 5, and 6 on 53 TS%, 20.4 PER, 6.6 WS, 5 BPM, 2.9 VORP, all-NBA 3rd team, all-defensive 1st team, didn't make the all-star team, 10th in MVP voting, tied for 9th for DPOTY voting.

2020 Anthony Davis: 26, 9, 3, on 61 TS%, 27.4 PER, 11.1 WS, 8 BPM, 5.4 VORP, all-NBA 1st team, all-defensive 1st team, all-star starter, 6th in MVP voting, 2nd in DPOTY voting

Playoffs 98 Pippen: 17, 7 and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER, 2.9 WS, 5.6 BPM, 1.6 VORP

Playoffs 20 Davis: 28, 10 and 4 on 67 TS%, 29.6 PER, 4.5 WS, 8.7 BPM, 2.1 VORP

Also, 2011 Dwayne Wade is clearly better than 1991 Scottie Pippen.

1991 Pippen: 18, 7 and 6, on 56 TS%, 20.6 PER, 11.2 WS, 5.8 BPM, 5.9 VORP, didn't make the all-star team or an all-nba team, 2nd all-NBA defensive team, didn't receive any MVP votes

2011 Wade: 26, 6, and 5 on 58 TS%, 25.6 PER, 12.8 WS, 6.6 BPM, 6.1 VORP, all-star starter, all-nba 2nd team, 7th in MVP voting

Playoffs 91 Pippen: 22, 9, and 6 on 56 TS%, 22 PER, 2.9 WS, 6.5 BPM, 1.5 VORP

Playoffs 11 Wade: 25, 7, and 4 on 57 TS%, 26.3 PER, 3.7 WS, 8.4 BPM, 2.2 VORP

I love Pippen, but he's never been as good as 2011 Wade or 2020 Davis.

Agreed entirely.

Scottie was just there for 11 straight years. That continuity, sustained quality and chemistry surely gotta mean something.

2011-13 D-Wade was special, not 2008-10 level great, but still elite top 5-7 player in the league, until he got injured. And outside of Lebron's meltdown in 2011, goodness, were the Heat special.

Bro, I don't pretend Lebron didn't fail or had weak moments. His 2011, was without doubt the worst mental breakdown of a top 5 player in any sport I've seen in my lifetime. I wrote a long enough post with several facts, and if you can't admit to any of it being true / pretend to not having read it, then this is the end of the conversation.

I picked up the basketball after watching the first threepeat, and only drive this pro Lebron rhetoric because I get pissed at the ignorant religious cult like absolute "Mike is greater than God" narrative. We live in an era where this cult hate watches the greatest player of the generation rather than simply enjoying it, like they enjoyed Mike's greatness. His every win, triple double, 40 point game is fretted upon with insecurity rather than celebrated.

[lazybatman]

RealGM is ground zero for the case that the statistical sports revolution has been counter productive. It seems to have made people just barely knowledgeable enough to be dangerous. MJ was a detrimental ball hog who never guarded good players and Pippen was the real star. Lol. I wish we could take some of you kids back in time to make these arguments to guys like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley just to see their reactions to the future generation of fans.

The goat argument still isn't even a real debate to anyone over 40. MJ was firmly in front of Russell, Wilt, and Kareem after his second retirement to everyone but a select few. Let Lebron finish his career before making his case. He's been good enough to get in the conversation but so much of the argument is either incomplete or revisionist history at this point.

Jordan was a ball hog his first few years in the league but he averaged about 6 assist a game throughout his career. Other than Pippen and Kukoc for a few years, nobody else on the Bulls was a threat to score over 15 a game. Orlando Woolridge maybe. And jordan was all defensive player how many years in the league? Pippen was a better defender but Jordan was still elite.

Jordan has a 33.3% usage rate for his career, which is higher than Lebron and James Harden.

Also averaged 42% usage for 3.5 assists in the 1998 finals series only so he could get his 30 ppg.

[lazybatman]

Read on Twitter

[JordansBulls]

Pippen career: 16.1 pts 6.4 boards, 5.2 asst and 2 steals
Wade career: 22 pts 4.7 boards 5.4 asst and 1.5 steals
David career; 24 points 10.4 boards and 2.4 blocks a game

So you still think Pippen was a better player than Wade and Anthony Davis? Please explain....

Scottie's 1993 season stats - 22p 8.7r 5.6s 2.9s

Imagine a guy who could produce like that, just playing as a number 2 for the prime of his career. And Scottie was a top 3-5 defender in the league for his entire career. And Scottie was the primary playmaker of the team, when Mike wasn't scoring. And he used to defend the opposing team's best players.

I'm not gonna say Scottie was better than Wade's 2008 playoffs and maybe that 2008-2010 stretch. But, Mike won 1 playoff game in three years without him. Wouldn't hurt to give him a little respect. Your insecure leader does.. maybe follow suite.

Wade and AD are definitely better than Scottie as players. No doubt about it.
Mike was making the playoffs though. Lebron didn't even his first two seasons. He also won 2 bronze medals as well in that time frame.

[VanWest82]

Jordan has a 33.3% usage rate for his career, which is higher than Lebron and James Harden.

The most talented scorer in NBA history has a high usage rate in the era of illegal defense. Who would've thought.

Also averaged 42% usage for 3.5 assists in the 1998 finals series only so he could get his 30 ppg.

Or maybe it was so they could actually win the title. Did you watch the 98 season? The only reason that Bulls team was any good is because MJ carried them. They got old fast. Scottie was a trainwreck in game 5 and could barely move in game 6 of the Finals.

Scottie's 1993 season stats - 22p 8.7r 5.6s 2.9s

Actually that was the 94 season. 93 was the year Scottie and Horace became petulant and stopped trying as hard. Jordan had to pick up their slack through the regular season but still won because he was amazing and could overcome his teammates acting like spoiled bickering brats even at the end of a long three peat.

But, Mike won 1 playoff game in three years without him (Scottie).

Yeah why didn't Mike win more playoff games in his first three seasons with the worst supporting cast in the league vs. a stacked Bucks team and perhaps the greatest Celtics team ever?

[Sark]

Read on Twitter

You obviously have no idea what is going on here. Jordan is arguing about a double dribble. The ref is calling a foul on #55. Jordan didn't influence his call at all.

Watch on YouTube

[NoStatsGuy]

its lebron guys, pretty clearly. all the MJ stans will never accept reality. so yea its dumb debate because almost no one is objective here and biased towards "their" era.

lebron would dominate the 90s and would look like a monster from another planet playing vs these bums drinking and gambling all night. no chance teams like detroit would be able to stop him. the league today is soooo much better skillwise, atheltics, IQ, preperation and many more things..

lebron faced way better competition and way better teams in the finals. there really is nothing much to say.

MJ was a killer and had the best mental of all time. but lebron is clearly the better player

[Ito]

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.
.

LOL

Wade and Davis are both way better players than Pippen ever was.

But way way better.

No way they were way better than prime Pippen.. Pippen was just a lesser version of Bron.. Wade and Davis were their best playing with Lebron. Wade is overrated... Lebron is goat he would have made Jordan better

[lazybatman]

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.
.

LOL

Wade and Davis are both way better players than Pippen ever was.

But way way better.

No way they were way better than prime Pippen.. Pippen was just a lesser version of Bron.. Wade and Davis were their best playing with Lebron. Wade is overrated... Lebron is goat he would have made Jordan better

I think they are better than Pip at their peak, but Pip had a longer, more sustained productive career. Who knows what he could've been if Krause didn't draft him to play second fiddle to Jordan.

[lazybatman]

MJ GOAT cult be like this after they see Lebron facts

Watch on YouTube

[OdomFan]

I was reading a bit about how close scientist are to a solution for age reverse, and it got me thinking how awesome it be if something does get invented that the league would approve to be safe and fair enough for current players at whatever time that is to be able to continue playing well into their 40s and 50s, and past players to consider making a come back with to continue building their legacy for a goat argument. Sounds silly right now but I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen one day. Imagine the possibilities.

[twyzted]

Wade's ranked 26 in the NBA all time rankings released last year. He was the best player Lebron ever played with. FMVP and Champion. AD may get there in the top 10-20, but nothing he's done yet qualifies him. Scottie was an elite defender and playmaker on a team where Jordan used to hog the possession. None of them are better.
.

LOL

Wade and Davis are both way better players than Pippen ever was.

But way way better.

No way they were way better than prime Pippen.. Pippen was just a lesser version of Bron.. Wade and Davis were their best playing with Lebron. Wade is overrated... Lebron is goat he would have made Jordan better

Wade won a title and fmvp as the man.
Before Lebron he was averaging
25ppg 5rpg 7apg 2spg 1bpg @48%fg 29%3pt 77%ft
Per25.7, 56%ts, ows45.6, dws24.1, ws69.8, ws48, .189 obpm5.3, dbpm1.4, bpm6.7, vorp38.6.

But sure he is worse then prime Pippen.
The disrepect Lebron stans show his teammates is unbelivable.
Wade is at worst top5 Sg ever.
Lebron, bird, kd, kawhi and Dr J are all better then Pippen ever was.
Also Lebron would make Jordan better. But Jordan would also make Lebron better.
But he also would have better record than 4-10 if he played with Jordan.