limbo wrote:70sFan wrote:I don't like Shaq's defense either, but he's not bigger liability on defense than Dirk. I don't view either one as defensive liabilities (at least in their primes), but Dirk was never good against P&Rs/switches either and he had less strengths defensively as well.
Basically, I don't see Dirk being more impactful defender than Dirk in any era - even in 2020.
Dirk had his limitations in terms of foot speed and he could get bullied by stronger more athletic finishers when trying to defend in the paint (which is why he frequently resorted into trying to slap the ball out of their hand rather than challenge them vertically), but his fundamentals defensively were better than Shaq's...
First of all, Shaq lost a lot of value defensively per possession just by being criminally bad at getting back on defense and conceding rim-protection in transition, while Dirk was actually very good in this aspect, in part due to his style offensively being rooted more in outside shooting, which frequently gave him a nice pole position to be one of the first guys back on defense.
Secondly, as much as Dirk's foot speed limited him in defending outside the paint, he was way more consistent in his effort to do so. Shaq didn't even try to defend the pick n roll... He'd just wait at the top of the key while giving the dribbler space to pull up + giving his own man space to pop... Here's an example of this @11:12 in the video:
This was a more viable strategy back in the early 00's, because teams didn't have good/versatile enough Guard + Big combos to exploit this space, but Bibby and Divac still made it work a lot of times vs. LA... Imagine doing this today. It's suicide. Most teams in the NBA now have a better PNR combo than Bibby Divac, and more shooters around them...
Also, here's an example of what Shaq looked like in the PNR defending a guy that could shoot it outside and dribble well enough @ 0:37
Peja just danced him around, passed the ball to Divac in the post in a mismatch, Shaq tried going back inside to help, Peja just springs back to the 3pt line and has enough time to bury it with Shaq being to slow to rotate. The Kings had the most sophisticated offensive sets in the early 00's. They actually had multiple ball-handlers, shooters and Bigs in Divac/Webber that knew how to be useful outside the paint. They lacked just a little bit more talent and luck to defeat the Lakers...
@11:30 - Watch Shaq's pathetic effort on defense here... Come on... You can't tell me this guy tried harder than Dirk defensively... First he's slow to get back... Then he just kind of stands there at the top of the key with no rhyme or reason... Completely OBLIVIOUS to what's going on around him... there's a guy behind him on the 3pt line completely open... there's Webber down low fighting for deep position... the ball swings to the corner and back inside to Webber... Shaq has 3 seconds to read this and react, but he just slowly jogs to the paint... luckily Webber fumbles the catch to give him an extra second but Shaq decides to just swipe at the air and let Webber score... Pathetic.
Shaq would get eaten alive defensively today. There's no room for these types of mistakes against modern offenses. Not getting back in transition, being an awful PNR defender that just sags back constantly, giving the ball-handler and the screener both enough space to shoot, being easily taken of the dribble by Stojakovic, much less guys like Curry, Lillard, Harden, Paul, Doncic and the list goes on... Even the things Shaq is suppose to be elite at, which is rim protection, he just gives up on trying to defend inside shots all too often... He's just lazy dude. The biggest value from Shaq defensively is that he's one of the best driving deterrents ever because he was so massive, he was a one man wall before the rim. He had a high intimidation factor. But teams now play a lot more for outside shots and have found ways to remove these sorts of paint-camping walls outside of the key. Not to mention the perimeter talent levels are all-time high. Mike Bibby was exploiting Shaq's defense in the early 00's... Mike Bibby is a nobody to Curry, Paul, Harden, Lillard, Doncic, LeBron with modern schemes and shooting... Even teams like the Jazz with Rubio, Mitchell and Ingles could work around Shaq's weaknesses now. They have enough resources and know-how.
It's legit criticism on Shaq and that's why I'm not as high on him as some, but here we compare him to Dirk who was exposed by the same team in 2002 playoffs. Dallas did everything to avoid Dirk defending P&Rs and when he had to he failed miserably. The same problem was more visible in 2005 playoffs against Suns - Dirk looked really bad in that series defensively. Nash exposed him many times, even when he defended the weakest Suns player.
Look at 1:15 - Dirk just standed and did nothing.
2:15 - another terrible coverage.
3:08 - is this supposed to be any different than what Shaq did?
Just watch whole video - it's Nash scoring on Dirk in P&Rs time and time again. He scored 48 because Dirk didn't have a clue how to defend it and it's not only about physical limitations.
It's not about Shaq being bad - it's about Dirk being just as bad while having no big strength on defense. Shaq was bad in P&Rs, but at least he provided strong rim protection. Dirk was also bad in P&Rs, but he didn't give you anything highly valuable either.
I just think that you ignore huge Dirk weakness defensively while trying do downgrade Shaq for a simple reason - you like Dirk, not so much with Shaq.
