2020 Draft

[doclinkin]

Watch on YouTube

He did beat up Okongwu in the USC game. Love his discussion of how he would like to develop the passing game coming off a pick and roll. This is what Draymond excels at.

[WizarDynasty]

ok a guy that really stands out to me that if we could get another pick for is Zeke Nnaji. His hip bend is incredible. He is going to be a real steal for whoever grabs him. We needs athletic defending bigs in the worst way. Achiuwa and Nnaji, and then maybe a p/g/ s/g with an explosive first step and 3 point shooting ability. That would be perfect. Still searching and will update.

I watched a little video and I came away unimpressed. He has a good frame, but he's not really that long. Just a 7-1 wingspan for a guy who is 6-11. He's not that explosive either. It takes him a while to gather before he jumps, and when he does jump, it's not very high. Everything about him seemed rather methodical, like he has to think about what he is doing. His lack of explosion and anticipation is evident in his weak steals and blocks numbers. His low assist numbers suggest a lack of court awareness.

He looks like a journeyman big at best - a 13th man if he makes a roster. I actually don't think he will make a roster. He isn't really good at anything. He's just kinda not awful at most things.

Zeke Nnaji is 3 times better than Onyeka Okwongu at the moment. Maybe someone has a crystal ball and see that Onyeka is going grow 4 inches and reach 6'11 or 7'0. Onyeka is already 20 years so I don't see any huge growth spurts happening. Repeat, Zeke is going to have better career unless Okongwu has a five inch growth spurt. Okongwu is still 6'8 and he doesn't have great hip bend. Zeke has a way better hip bend, and is foot coordination is equal to Onyeka. Neither is explosive off ground but Nnaji has exceptional wide stance, far better landing mechanics and shooting form on his jumpshots,
Maybe Okowngwu has better leadershp skills longterm. I think a good strategy for Wiz is stockpile some later first rounders and stash up on these bigmen prospects. Achiuwa, , Nnaji, maybe get Pritchard, and ramsey. We really good have this team set for a very long time. Just remember the days when we had guys like McGee, Vesely, Ramos, and Blatche as our hope for the future.
Load up late first and early 2nd rounders and scoop these players up.

[doclinkin]

Zeke Nnaji popped up a few times on my searches for productive freshmen. But he showed up smallest against the biggest competition. Couldn't score against any team with size up front, dropping well below his scoring average against Isaiah Stewart and Okongwu, suffered against Tyler Bey. He did rebound well against them though, so there's that.

Then there's this:

Just remember the days when we had guys like McGee, Vesely, Ramos, and Blatche as our hope for the future.
Load up late first and early 2nd rounders and scoop these players up.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Ok. Let’s say we’ve snagged Okongwu with our first pick and Tillman and Pritchard are still on the board when our 2nd pick comes up.

Who do you take?

[nate33]

Ok. Let’s say we’ve snagged Okongwu with our first pick and Tillman and Pritchard are still on the board when our 2nd pick comes up.

Who do you take?

Pritchard.

[nate33]

Zeke Nnaji is 3 times better than Onyeka Okwongu at the moment. Maybe someone has a crystal ball and see that Onyeka is going grow 4 inches and reach 6'11 or 7'0. Onyeka is already 20 years so I don't see any huge growth spurts happening. Repeat, Zeke is going to have better career unless Okongwu has a five inch growth spurt. Okongwu is still 6'8 and he doesn't have great hip bend. Zeke has a way better hip bend, and is foot coordination is equal to Onyeka. Neither is explosive off ground but Nnaji has exceptional wide stance, far better landing mechanics and shooting form on his jumpshots

Statistically, Okongwu is better than NNaji at basically everything: points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers and FG%. The only thing Nnaji does better is his FT% is slightly higher. Okongwu is just a much better basketball player with much better instincts. Okongwu posts 3.2 blocks and 1.4 steals per 36. Nnaji posts just 1.0 blocks and 0.8 steals. That's unacceptably bad for a center. You have to protect the rim better.

I share your concerns with Okongwu being undersized, but I think you are overstating it. I've seen no sites that list Okongwu at 6-8 except ones talking about him in high school. I've seen 6-9 and 6-9.5. For wingspan, I've seen 7-1, 7-2 and 7-4. I'm looking forward to his official measurements at the combine.

The bottom line is that if Okongwu is too small to play center, that doesn't make Nnaji any better. It just means we shouldn't draft either of them. But we definitely shouldn't draft Nnaji.

[doclinkin]

Zeke Nnaji is 3 times better than Onyeka Okwongu at the moment. Maybe someone has a crystal ball and see that Onyeka is going grow 4 inches and reach 6'11 or 7'0. Onyeka is already 20 years so I don't see any huge growth spurts happening. Repeat, Zeke is going to have better career unless Okongwu has a five inch growth spurt. Okongwu is still 6'8 and he doesn't have great hip bend. Zeke has a way better hip bend, and is foot coordination is equal to Onyeka. Neither is explosive off ground but Nnaji has exceptional wide stance, far better landing mechanics and shooting form on his jumpshots

Statistically, Okongwu is better than Zeke at basically everything: points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers and FG%. The only thing Nnaji does better is his FT% is slightly higher. Okongwu is just a much better basketball player with much better instincts. Okongwu posts 3.2 blocks and 1.4 steals per 36. Nnaji posts just 1.0 blocks and 0.8 steals. That's unacceptably bad for a center. You have to protect the rim better.

I share your concerns with Okongwu being undersized, but I think you are overstating it. I've seen no sites that list Okongwu at 6-8 except ones talking about him in high school. I've seen 6-9 and 6-9.5. For wingspan, I've seen 7-1, 7-2 and 7-4. I'm looking forward to his official measurements at the combine.

The bottom line is that if Okongwu is too small to play center, that doesn't make Nnaji any better. It just means we shouldn't draft either of them. But we definitely shouldn't draft Nnaji.

Okongwu measured at 6'9"+.0 some without shoes according to coaches. So 6'10". He doesn't have massive reach or wingspan though. Or out of the gym ups. But in competitive smarts he is advanced. He is quicker to reach his potential and further in his path to do so than other players up and down the draft. That may give him a head start and he may not be passed, but there are definitely players in the draft with greater potential talent. Maybe they prove better eventually, but do you get the full value from them? I bet overall Okongwu contributes more, more quickly, before anyone passes him, maybe long term better value for the contract. He's good, but no one is thinking surefire all-star for a guy that might slip to #9. If Wiseman had the mentality of Okongwu he would be the unquestioned #1 in this years draft and most other drafts.

[payitforward]

Watch on YouTube

He did beat up Okongwu in the USC game. Love his discussion of how he would like to develop the passing game coming off a pick and roll. This is what Draymond excels at.

Very fun to watch. He is a nice kid, has no trouble talking about his game analytically. Mike Schmitz gives him a lot of praise -- but... is more conservative on him here... https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable/_/position/ovr/page/2

I think anyone who gets Stewart in late R1 should feel like they did well & have a shot at a good roster player.

[payitforward]

Edit... I see that nate raised many of these same points!

...Zeke Nnaji is 3 times better than Onyeka Okwongu at the moment. Maybe someone has a crystal ball and see that Onyeka is going grow 4 inches and reach 6'11 or 7'0....

Ok, here's what this brings up for me.

When I look at the numbers these guys put up, both as Freshmen, born @4weeks apart, they are extremely close in scoring & rebounding. Okongwu was slightly better in both -- but, it's really close.

When you look at steals & blocks, however, it isn't close -- Okongwu was much superior. He got over 75% more steals -- & he blocked 3.5 shots per 40 minutes to Nnaji's 1.1.

So, I wonder... what does it mean to call Nnaji "better than" Okongwu?

Even more, I wonder how anyone can simply announce that...

Zeke is going to have better career unless Okongwu has a five inch growth spurt.

(which obviously he won't)

With this, however I totally agree:

I think a good strategy for Wiz is stockpile some later first rounders and stash up on these bigmen prospects. Achiuwa, , Nnaji, maybe get Pritchard, and ramsey. We really good have this team set for a very long time. Just remember the days when we had guys like McGee, Vesely, Ramos, and Blatche as our hope for the future.
Load up late first and early 2nd rounders and scoop these players up.

Yes!

[payitforward]

Statistically, Okongwu is better than NNaji at basically everything.... The bottom line is that if Okongwu is too small to play center, that doesn't make Nnaji any better. It just means we shouldn't draft either of them. But we definitely shouldn't draft Nnaji.

In fairness, Nnaji put up good numbers overall for a Freshman in a tough conference. Of course, no one should draft him at #9 -- which I think must be what you meant. But, he'd be a good pick somewhere in the late 30s of this draft, & he might well turn out to be a good NBA player.

It just makes no sense to pit him against Okongwu in a comparison.

[WizarDynasty]

The bottom dweller teams are always fed incorrect player rankings. Go look at draft history. Go look at what i said in this same thread. Okongwu is the next derrick williams. He is the next otto porter. Wizards don't know what winning looks like. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..shame on me.
Okongwu does not have great hip bend, and he is undersized. Those are huge warnings signs. Go back and look at Derrick Williams. Go look at thomas robinson.
Okongwu did nothing against player with size and and athleticism. He compiled his stats against scrubs. He doesn't have hops, he doesn't have dribble skills, and he is 6'8 center.
Same signs were there for both thomas robinson...poor reach for a powerforward 8'10 standing reach well below elite for p/f. which is 9'3.
derrick williams had a 9'0 standing reach. well below 9'3.
your standing reach is your effective height.

there is a huge difference between a 6'1 point guard and 6'4 point guard...huge difference between 9'0 and 9'3.

He is fully extended Okongwu has 9'0 standing 8'11 standing reach. Both Okongwu and Nnaji have 8'11 standing reach. 4 inches from optimal for p/f center. Look at the video.
https://youtu.be/3pQqe20aEFw?t=29

Derrick Williams and Thomas Robinson all over again.

[Ruzious]

Here are some surprises - though I still haven't seen any measurements listing released yet - just random tweats:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Tyler Bey can fly - and has an impressive wingspan. And who would have thought Azubuike could jump like that? That might be the biggest Nba combine surprise that I can recall. He's enormous to be able to do that, and I thought he was very stiff. I guess you can be stiff and still be able to jump high.

[payitforward]

...Okongwu is the next derrick williams. He is the next otto porter. Wizards don't know what winning looks like. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..shame on me.
Okongwu does not have great hip bend, and he is undersized. Those are huge warnings signs. Go back and look at Derrick Williams. Go look at thomas robinson....

I don't need to go look at those guys. I already have looked at them. I looked at them in college, & I looked at them the little bit they were in the league.

But, you haven't looked at Brandon Clarke. You haven't looked at him at Gonzaga, & you haven't looked at him in the league. Nor do you know what his production was in college or in the league. Nor do you know what his numbers were in college or as a rookie.

It's perfectly possible that Okongwu will be a bust. Or nothing special. That Achiuwa will too -- both of them may turn out to suck while Nnaji becomes a huge success. Or Azubuike. There is uncertainty in everything; any set of results is possible.

That's the way things work in the world. Moreover, declarations of certainty, no matter how strongly put, don't actually have any effect on uncertainty whatever. Repeating those declarations doesn't improve their effect either. Yet, people will continue to make those declarations, because that too is the way things work in the world.

Moreover, people who speak with absolute certainty usually have some "absolute" set of metrics they rely on. But, of course, there is no single absolute set of metrics.

Now, without a doubt being taller, having a larger wingspan, enjoying a greater standing reach is an advantage if you want to get something down from a high shelf. & in exactly the same way, it's an advantage if you want to be a basketball player.

That's as far as it goes, WD. & basketball is more complex than getting something down from a high shelf. Better athleticism -- by whatever single set of measures you choose -- won't make Prospect A a better basketball player than Prospect B unless A is also equal or better than B in a bunch of other ways (i.e. using other, unrelated metrics). Working harder is also an advantage. BBIQ is too. Having bigger hands helps. Having better hands helps too.

The bottom dweller teams are always fed incorrect player rankings. ...

I think you've got cause and effect switched here. They become bottom dweller teams because they make bad decisions about players -- in the draft & otherwise -- not the reverse.

Along the same lines, people continue to be convinced that if you pick from 4-14 in the draft, you should expect to get a significantly better player than if you pick from 14-24. & if you pick from 14-24, you should expect to get a significantly better player than if you pick from 24-34. As if uncertainty were a minor issue!

[WizarDynasty]

...Okongwu is the next derrick williams. He is the next otto porter. Wizards don't know what winning looks like. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..shame on me.
Okongwu does not have great hip bend, and he is undersized. Those are huge warnings signs. Go back and look at Derrick Williams. Go look at thomas robinson....

I don't need to go look at those guys. I already have looked at them. I looked at them in college, & I looked at them the little bit they were in the league.

But, you haven't looked at Brandon Clarke. You haven't looked at him at Gonzaga, & you haven't looked at him in the league. Nor do you know what his production was in college or in the league. Nor do you know what his numbers were in college or as a rookie.

It's perfectly possible that Okongwu will be a bust. Or nothing special. That Achiuwa will too -- both of them may turn out to suck while Nnaji becomes a huge success. Or Azubuike. There is uncertainty in everything; any set of results is possible.

That's the way things work in the world. Moreover, declarations of certainty, no matter how strongly put, don't actually have any effect on uncertainty whatever. Repeating those declarations doesn't improve their effect either. Yet, people will continue to make those declarations, because that too is the way things work in the world.

Moreover, people who speak with absolute certainty usually have some "absolute" set of metrics they rely on. But, of course, there is no single absolute set of metrics.

Now, without a doubt being taller, having a larger wingspan, enjoying a greater standing reach is an advantage if you want to get something down from a high shelf. & in exactly the same way, it's an advantage if you want to be a basketball player.

That's as far as it goes, WD. & basketball is more complex than getting something down from a high shelf. Better athleticism -- by whatever single set of measures you choose -- won't make Prospect A a better basketball player than Prospect B unless A is also equal or better than B in a bunch of other ways (i.e. using other, unrelated metrics). Working harder is also an advantage. BBIQ is too. Having bigger hands helps. Having better hands helps too.

The bottom dweller teams are always fed incorrect player rankings. ...

I think you've got cause and effect switched here. They become bottom dweller teams because they make bad decisions about players -- in the draft & otherwise -- not the reverse.

Along the same lines, people continue to be convinced that if you pick from 4-14 in the draft, you should expect to get a significantly better player than if you pick from 14-24. & if you pick from 14-24, you should expect to get a significantly better player than if you pick from 24-34. As if uncertainty were a minor issue!

Newbies that don't realize that "deep hip bend with extended movement duration "is one most metrics that can't be measured. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink.
where are your metrics for how long a player can maintain a deep bend while dribbling with his back to basket?
Does the player maintain a deep hip bend when going into his jumpshot and landing from his jumpshot?
Does the player maintain a deep hip bend when carving outspace in the paint?
\When the player is guarding in zone, are his hips normally in deep bend or is he standing upright most of time?
When a player is playing man to man defense, how quickly can he switch his stance and maintain a deep hip bend?
How quickly can a player move while defensively laterally while maintain a deep hip bend?
Zeke Nnaji absolutely destroys in these categories that are "blind" to your eyes. If i am top scout, why would I tell the other nba teams what they should be looking for? That's why Espn is always pushing players like Derrick williams, Thabeet, and Thomas Robinson's.
Don't go by these mocks, hopefully Shepherd as learned from his mentor's (Grunfeld--and for all we know it was shepherd behind all hte tragic big man mistakes that have been made) mistakes not to trust espn, or consensus mock drafts. Use your eyes and time tested measurements from greats in the game. Hip bend, standing reach, core strength, quick twitch second jumps, hand size, high energy motor, awareness of what opponents are doing strategically. Things that can't be taught like hip bend and standing reach should be given a premium over things that can be taught like awareness of defensive strategies.

YOu have given zero's to players that have scored 10 in these categories and have given 10's to players that have scored close to zero in these categories. See Brandon Clarke. the only problem with me posting on this forum is that all of the other teams have access to what i type and thus wizards really have no advantage with information i provide.

[queridiculo]

YOu have given zero's to players that have scored 10 in these categories and have given 10's to players that have scored close to zero in these categories. See Brandon Clarke. the only problem with me posting on this forum is that all of the other teams have access to what i type and thus wizards really have no advantage with information i provide.

Hall-of-fame.

[Dat2U]

Here are some surprises - though I still haven't seen any measurements listing released yet - just random tweats:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Tyler Bey can fly - and has an impressive wingspan. And who would have thought Azubuike could jump like that? That might be the biggest Nba combine surprise that I can recall. He's enormous to be able to do that, and I thought he was very stiff. I guess you can be stiff and still be able to jump high.

Obi Toppin may be the poster child for being stiff but also being able to fly.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Ok. Let’s say we’ve snagged Okongwu with our first pick and Tillman and Pritchard are still on the board when our 2nd pick comes up.

Who do you take?

Pritchard.

Interesting. And I don’t disagree. I just would love to hear your reasoning.

Tillman is generally rated higher. Would it be because of need or just that you think he’ll be a better NBA player?

[payitforward]

Newbies that don't realize that "deep hip bend with extended movement duration "is one most metrics that can't be measured. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink.....

First off, this kind of sparring (I mean between us -- or any 2 participants here) needs to be fun -- not something to get salty about in any serious way.

I say that, because I am a fan of what you post here; makes me happy that you are posting here. Makes it more enjoyable. Gives me stuff to look at & think about. So I hope we can be straight about that.

2d, don't be calling me a "newbie" -- I have been watching basketball, thinking about basketball, even playing basketball (a very long time ago -- & very badly!) for a lot longer than you. Probably some decades longer than you! Given that I turned 78 years old 7 weeks ago (def. no "explosive first step" happening here!). Of course, in itself, that doesn't mean I know anything -- .

But, as it happens, I do know a thing or two.

...Zeke Nnaji absolutely destroys in these categories that are "blind" to your eyes. If i am top scout, why would I tell the other nba teams what they should be looking for? That's why Espn is always pushing players like Derrick williams, Thabeet, and Thomas Robinson's.

As I said, Nnaji put up very good numbers for a freshman. As I also said, he might turn out to be quite a good player. OTOH, he might not. & if he doesn't pan out, you gonna be in here saying "I guess I was wrong about Nnaji..."? Ditto on other guys who don't turn out the way you project them to?

Since I haven't seen that from you yet, either it's not something you cop to, or else you've never been wrong! You gonna make that last claim?

Don't go by these mocks, hopefully Shepherd as learned from his mentor's (Grunfeld--and for all we know it was shepherd behind all hte tragic big man mistakes that have been made) mistakes not to trust espn, or consensus mock drafts....

Do you honestly think that Grunfeld made, or Sheppard makes, draft decisions based on mock drafts? As far as ESPN goes, on the other hand, Jonathan Givony probably spends an order of magnitude more time looking at players, in detail & in person, than you would possibly have time to do. It's what he does with his life, & he is extremely good at it. Ditto Mike Schmitz.

Use your eyes and time tested measurements from greats in the game. Hip bend, standing reach, core strength, quick twitch second jumps, hand size, high energy motor, awareness of what opponents are doing strategically....

Absolutely. I try not to judge players with my eyes closed, WD, I really do!

...Things that can't be taught like hip bend and standing reach should be given a premium over things that can be taught like awareness of defensive strategies....

How about results? Should they be given a premium? Ability to go from level to level as you grow from boy to man, & be successful at every level?

You give standing reach a premium over ability to produce results? Thabeet had great length. How long a list do you want of failures who measure well? You remember Tyrus Thomas?

...You have given zero's to players that have scored 10 in these categories and have given 10's to players that have scored close to zero in these categories. See Brandon Clarke....

Uh huh.... Have you looked at the numbers Brandon Clarke puts up when things are moving too fast for you to get out your tape measure? I mean in games? At Gonzaga? With Memphis? I'm guessing not.

...the only problem with me posting on this forum is that all of the other teams have access to what i type and thus wizards really have no advantage with information i provide.

See, this is what I like about you! You have passion, you are intense, you are committed to the way you think & judge stuff. You think it's important! That's great.

But, if you think either the Wizards or (even less likely!) other teams would let their lowest-paid employee spend his on-the-job time gathering info from this board... well, I hope you don't. Because they wouldn't. They don't. I mean... maybe, just maybe, someone on the Wizards skims here -- just to get a sense of what fans are thinking, not for info the team will use in making roster choices. But that's as far as it goes.

Btw, Rui (you like Rui) & Clarke were teammates at Gonzaga. Clarke way outplayed Rui there. & he ran circles around him in their rookie year. It wasn't close. Have you even looked at the numbers? Let alone actually watched Clarke back then or now?

I didn't think so.

[WizarDynasty]

Ok. Let’s say we’ve snagged Okongwu with our first pick and Tillman and Pritchard are still on the board when our 2nd pick comes up.

Who do you take?

Pritchard.

Interesting. And I don’t disagree. I just would love to hear your reasoning.

Tillman is generally rated higher. Would it be because of need or just that you think he’ll be a better NBA player?

Problem with Pritchard is that he doesn't have length and he has very weak feet. You can see how his foot sticks when to the ground when he lands from shooting a three. He doesn't have enough strength in his legs (or particularly strength in his feet to support the impact when he lands... Knees are already getting damaged because he uses cartilage to absorb impact rather than muscle strength) Watch closely and see how his foot sticks to the ground. He is going to have a problem shooting over length. I would like to find a donovan mitchell type project with my second round pick. Heavy body explosive first step with length...project that can shoot threes is what you aim for in a bottom heavy draft. Don't need thin quick point guards that can't finish with contact. I do like Pritchard's handle --he has great ball control with deep hip bend.
But weak feet is a longterm problem that won't be easily fixed. His athleticism will significantly drop with time because of that, along with knee problems from not being able to shift his momentum backward as he lands.

[nate33]

Ok. Let’s say we’ve snagged Okongwu with our first pick and Tillman and Pritchard are still on the board when our 2nd pick comes up.

Who do you take?

Pritchard.

Interesting. And I don’t disagree. I just would love to hear your reasoning.

Tillman is generally rated higher. Would it be because of need or just that you think he’ll be a better NBA player?

I think the "best player available" strategy is overstated.

Yes, if you think one player is way better than the others, you take him, regardless of position. But if you've got a few guys in the same tier, you have to think about need. There is no room on the roster to groom both Okongwu and Tillman, while also playing Bryant.