RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#121 » by drza » Sun Nov 1, 2020 3:30 pm

This post is the third in the trilogy about Hakeem Olajuwon’s game and place in history, that I began with Impressions of Hakeem Olajuwon through the years and continued with Impressions of Hakeem Olajuwon compared to Robinson, Duncan and/or Garnett. Link to original from my old blog: https://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/163969933991/hakeem-olajuwons-impact-by-numbers-peak-93

Hakeem Olajuwon’s impact by numbers: peak (93 - 96) vs non-peak

Olajuwon’s famous for a huge peak from 1993 - 96, when he won both of his titles during the Jordan retirement years. But the question is, was he playing at that level all along but no one noticed it because his supporting casts were weaker? The answer to that question can help evaluate Olajuwon’s longevity as a mega impact player, which can help estimate the overall value of his career. Let’s explore.

WOWY
The With Or Without You measure (WOWY) calculated by Ben Taylor (El Gee) gives us some insight into how much impact players from the pre-databall era were having. It’s a measure for how a team plays in the games that a player plays, vs how they play when the player misses time. Olajuwon missed double-digit games in three time windows during his rough prime window of 1986 - 1996:

*1986: Olajuwon missed 14 games. ElGee’s WOWY spreadsheet accounts for 13 of those games. He measured the change in SRS of the Rockets to be +1.9 when Olajuwon was in, vs those 13 games when he was out. The team’s ultimate SRS was 2.1.

1991 & 1992: Olajuwon missed 26 games in 1991 and 12 games in 1992. ElGee’s WOWY spreadsheet measured the change in SRS of the Rockets to be +3.8 when Olajuwon was in vs those 38 games when he was out, and he calculated that the SRS of the team over those two seasons was 2.0.

1995 & 1996: Olajuwon missed 10 games in 1995 and another 10 in 1996. ElGee’s WOWY spreadsheet accounts for eight of the missed games in 95 and all 10 in 96. Unfortunately, he doesn’t have them grouped here for one number. In 95, the SRS of the Rockets was +6 higher and in 96 it was +9.4 higher with Olajuwon than in the games that he was out.

(Disclaimer: someone (I think Blackmill) performed simulations that he believes shows that WOWY is noisy for the order of 10 - 40 games missed, so take the above with whatever size grain of salt you desire)

On/off +/-
We have that data for 1994, 1995 and 1996 (nominally Olajuwon’s peak)

1994: Rockets +7 on, -7.5 off –> +14.5 net, 4th in NBA (Robinson 1st, +19.9)

1995: Rockets +5.6 on, -6.3 off –> +11.9 net, 7th in NBA (Robinson 1st, +19.8)

1996: Rockets +4.9 on, -5.4 off –> +10.3 net (unknown rank, Robinson 1st, +16.6, Jordan +15.2)

Quick thoughts on those impact results
*It is generally accepted that Olajuwon hit an absurd peak between 93 - 96, a peak that was historic level. The question that a lot of people have, then, is how different was “peak” Olajuwon from “pre-peak” Olajuwon. There is a sentiment, among his supporters, that while he may have improved a bit in 93, that he was similarly impactful before 1993 but had a team that was too poor to show it. Being a Garnett supporter, I’m of course familiar with that argument

*The WOWY data suggests (to the extent that you find WOWY on 10 - 40 games in 1 to 2 year periods useful) that

Olajuwon’s impact was not as large in his ‘86 or '91-'92 absence as it was in his '95-96 absences

.*Comparatively speaking, early Olajuwon’s impact per WOWY was more similar to 1965 Wilt (when he went from the Warriors to the 76ers mid-season with neither team changing much in SRS).

*However, later Olajuwon (1996), per WOWY, had a much larger impact (on the order of 2001-02 Shaq or 2005 Duncan, even 1978 Walton)

*Olajuwon’s 1994 - 1996 on/off +/- scores generally support his 1996 WOWY score…they also support that Olajuwon was having an impact in those mid-90s years that was among the best in the NBA in those seasons.

What may have contributed to Olajuwon’s impact pre-1993 not being as large as during his 93 - 96 peak?
I’ve got two potential reasons: 1) More complete offense at his peak and 2) More intelligent defense at his peak. Let’s start with the boxscores, and go from there.

Hakeem’s boxscore

1986 - 92: 23.2 pts (51% FG, 71% FT), 12.6 reb, 2.3 ast/3.2 TO, 2.1 stl, 3.7 blk

1993 - 96: 27 pts (52% FG, 74% FT), 11.7 reb, 3.6 ast/3.3 TO, 1.7 stl, 3.6 blk

1) More complete offense.

There aren’t huge differences in the boxscore, a bit each way. Olajuwon was scoring on a bit higher volume, about one rebound less, miniscule differences in steal/block numbers

The one area that stands out to me, though, is the seemingly small difference in assists. See, up until 1993, Olajuwon never had a single season where he had as many assists as he had turnovers. Then, from 93 - 96, he had more assists than TOs every season. Here’s why I think that’s important:

From the databall era +/- stats (1997 - current), the regressed data suggests strongly that volume scoring (even on good efficiency) is NOT sufficient for strong offense impact. No, for volume scorers, passing/assists correlates more with positive offensive impact than scoring efficiency. There’s a growing amount of research indicating this, but here’s a quote from one article from Andrew Johnson on Nylon Calculus (note: here's the link to the article. Really worth checking out https://fansided.com/2016/11/28/nylon-calculus-shooting-shot-creation-variance/ ):

“The higher COV on passing efficiency within positions indicates that passing efficiency is a measure with some real separation in talent. Further, the outliers on the upper end tend to line up with the players we think of as stars.”

“In fact, Justin Willard’s research found that there is an interactive quality between scoring and passing proficiency; being a superior passer increases the impact of a player’s scoring and vice versa.”


For a center, getting up near 4 assists per game vs the just over 2 assists pre-peak pushes Olajuwon out towards the “position outliers” that Johnson describes. In some of my own research, it seems that for bigs, getting to that assist/TO ratio over 1 is almost like a Magic number. It’s not published, but it’s very clear when you go through the RAPM studies for the last 20 years. It’s clear even when you go through the subjectively decided offensive peaks of the great big man scorers…Kareem, Shaq, Robinson, Dirk, Duncan…look at the seasons that you believe to be their best offensive seasons, and universally they’re the ones with assist/TO ratios over 1.

Olajuwon became a more intelligent player at his peak, he became a better passer, and it allowed the Rockets to play that 1 star with 4 shooters offense, which devastated the league. I believe that this helps to explain why Olajuwon’s impact at his peak was just better than previously.

2) Smarter defense. This one I’m hand-waving, which hopefully can be somewhat forgiven at the end of this marathon post. General consensus is that Hakeem’s defensive peak came just before his overall peak, and that 1993 may have been the last of his true “defensive peak” years. That’s reasonable. By his offensive peak, he was no longer at his athletic peak, and we did see a small dip in his rebounds and steals (not much in his blocks).

But, I would also say that, in general, players become smarter defenders (and players in general) as they get older. And while Hakeem was no longer at his athletic peak in the mid-90s, he was still at the upper end of the elite as far as athleticism for a center. Plus, and this shouldn’t be overlooked, but the Rockets had intelligent 4s like Otis Thorpe and young Robert Horry, which maybe allowed Olajuwon to emphasize his strengths (e.g. post-defense and rim protection) without having to cover quite as much land as he had to previously. Somewhat like Wilt, Duncan, Robinson and Garnett…they may have lost some athleticism off their defensive fast ball, but smarts seemed to allow them to either maintain or even perhaps have larger measure impacts as old guys. I’m going to postulate that maybe peak Hakeem had some of that as well.

Conclusions
*Hakeem was an athletic freak that could score in a dominant way and fill up the defensive box scores for almost his entire career

*Hakeem didn’t measure out with elite WOWY scores in his absences in 1986 or 1991-92.

*Hakeem DID measure out with elite WOWY scores, as well as elite on/off +/- scores during his 1994 - 96 peak years

*Hakeem clearly became a better passer and better overall offensive hub in his peak years than he was previously, both by the eye test and it can somewhat be seen in the boxscore. I contend that offense creation/passing is a MUCH more important factor in offensive impact than general consensus or the boxscore composite stats account for, and that this marked an important increase in Olajuwon’s offensive impact

*The consensus is that Hakeem’s defensive peak was just prior to his offensive peak, and I can see that. However, experience breeds defensive intelligence and often leads to extended (maybe even increased) defensive impact even as the athletic ability starts to wane. This seems to be especially true for the elite bigs that maintained strong physical advantages even when they lost top athletic ability, and I contend that it could be true for Hakeem as well

Thus, it DOES appear that a) peak Hakeem (1993 - 96) was a distinctly bigger impact player than pre-1993 Hakeem.

Bringing this around to the vote (2020)

Olajuwon was an amazing player, and he peaked as an all-history player. But, I think only at his peak (93-96) was Olajuwon's on-court impact comparable to what we saw from Garnett's extended prime. Olajuwon was always the better ISO scorer, and he ramped that ability up in the playoffs. But, generalizing away from Olajuwon and Garnett specifically, we've got lots of data showing that ISO/volume scoring (particularly from big men) just isn't as impactful as we used to think it was. It just isn't. Now, getting back to specifics, Olajuwon's monster ISO offense was a big part of the two rings he won. And that absolutely has to be a big factor in this comp.

But not the only factor. Garnett was having the impact Olajuwon only seemed to reach in his peak, perhaps in his peak AND the playoffs, but for around a decade. And, contrary to the narrative, Garnett's outsized impact continued through the playoffs at an extremely high, repeatable level for a similar decade-plus.

And I've seen some in this thread and the last posit that Olajuwon's peak impact should trump Garnett's unique combo of portability and scaleability, but I'd argue that those latter elements are a big reason WHY Garnett's prime- and career- impacts were larger than Hakeem's despite their peaks being comparable: Hakeem needed more of a sweet spot (e.g. improving his passing, being surrounded by shooters, Rudy T's system, perhaps the closer 3-point line) in order to reach that maximized impact, whereas Garnett was able to have a similar level of impact in a mad variety of roles on the Timberwolves and Celtics. Garnett finished top-5 in RAPM in the late 90s as a do-everything-guy and finisher next to great PGs, finished consistently near the top as the primary offensive and defensive engine for the Wolves in the first half of the 2000s, finished at the top as the dominant defensive engine and finisher for the late 00s Celtics, and maintained his spot as a top-5 RAPM finisher out into the early 2010s with the Celtics as a dominant defender and good offensive floor spacer/passer.

Thus, Vote:

1) Kevin Garnett
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Larry Bird
(for now, anyway. Still haven't explored much past the top two slots in this project)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#122 » by 90sAllDecade » Sun Nov 1, 2020 5:07 pm

Hakeem was more impactful overall than Garnett was an all time dominant center in the 80s on defense and especially in the playoffs.

As shown in previous posts, Garnett struggled in the post season and on teams with subpar talent, but to his credit so did Jordan, LeBron, Kareem and any all time great player. When given talent around him, both he and Hakeem succeeded. But Hakeem did so without an all star player, something Garnett never accomplished in many years in Minnesota. For all his impact stats, Hakeem was actually more impactful without a second star.

One thing to keep in mind, Hakeem was Muslim and did not play in a major market in the 80s and 90s in Houston. So any feelings or memories are often going to be unconsiously based on the marketing, commercials and media narrative at the time.

He had a renewal in just how good he was in the internet age, when people could finally watch him play and see how his skill level on both ends of the floor were actually better than other more heavily marketed GOAT players.

You can see he does many things others can't for example in the fatal9 video below:



For example as far as marketing, he didn't sign with Nike so young people wouldn't have to steal or forcefully try to take expensive shoes they couldn't afford, he later changed his stance but this affected his marketing in a non internet age.

“How can a poor working mother with three boys buy Nikes or Reeboks that cost $120?” Olajuwon said upon their release in 1995. “She can’t. So kids steal these shoes from stores and from other kids. Sometimes they kill for them.”


Hakeem was also a dominant force in the 80s despite that marketing that can influence fans personal feelings. Here is a sports illustrated article on him at the time in 1986, well before his 1990s peak.

Sports Illustrated wrote:
Image


BIG ROCKET, BIG BLAST
AKEEM OLAJUWON WAS UNSTOPPABLE AS HOUSTON TOOK A 3-1 LEAD OVER THE STUNNED NBA CHAMPIONS FROM L.A.

JACK MCCALLUM


They've come in waves, a gold and purple Pacific of defenders—Kurt Rambis, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Maurice Lucas, Mitch Kupchak. All have tried to stop the Houston Rockets' Akeem Olajuwon, and all have failed. They've fronted him and backed him, elbowed him out of position, yanked him to the floor, sent him to the free-throw line and moved their quick-handed guards, Magic Johnson and Byron Scott, down low to double-and triple-team him. Better they should have tried to tie his shoelaces together.

Nothing has worked against Olajuwon, a mixture of brute and ballet dancer, a center so swift and so strong he can kill you softly or violently.

Defend the NBA title? Puh-leese. The next words out of Los Angeles might well be no mas. "I know Kareem won't give up," said Olajuwon, "but I don't think they can win three in a row."

Not if Akeem were to continue at his latest implausible pace, anyway. He scored 40 and 35 points last weekend at the Summit in Houston as the young Rockets, having suddenly changed from diapers to combat fatigues, beat the Lakers twice to take a 3-1 lead in the Western Conference finals. Next up was a game in the Forum on Wednesday, but even there the Lakers were not safe. Houston beat L.A. 112-102 in Game 2 on Tuesday of last week in that very arena, a result that heralded the changing of the guard in the West that the Rockets obviously had in mind.

"Eventually, you knew it was going to happen," said Laker sixth man Michael Cooper. "You knew they were going to be a team to reckon with. It's just happening a little bit sooner than we thought."

Indeed, the Rockets are currently in the third year of management's "five-year plan." It began in 1983 when owner Charles F. Thomas, a.k.a. King Coin Flip, called "heads" and earned the right to draft Ralph Sampson. Two years ago Portland called "tails," up came heads, and Olajuwon went to the Rockets. And now there was Houston, only one win away from sending its Twin Towers against the imposing Boston skyline in the finals. Give Sampson his due on this point—he has long pooh-poohed the front-office's plan as overly cautious. "I didn't want to hear about five-year plans then and I don't want to hear about them now," Sampson said last week, possibly because he, more than anyone, realized the full potential of Olajuwon.

Now the Lakers know it, too. Magic: "In terms of raw athletic ability, Akeem is the best I've ever seen." Lucas: "The rebirth of a bigger Moses Malone." Kupchak: "I can compare him to, maybe, Alvin Robertson in terms of being able to do everything. That tells you something, since Robertson is a guard. I've never seen anyone that strong, that quick, that relentless and who also happens to be seven-feet tall."

Actually, he's more like 6'11", but who's measuring? The point is that no one on the Lakers, long of tooth and short of rebound (the Rockets dominated the boards 186-145 in the first four games), has been able to cut him down to size. For all the success the Laker big people have had, coach Pat Riley might just as well send out his all-purpose defensive octopus, the long-armed 6'7" Cooper, to guard Olajuwon.

Cooper almost jumped off the locker room bench when that idea was proposed after Houston's 105-95 victory on Sunday. "Shoot, I'd love to guard him," said Cooper. "I'm not saying I'd stop him, but I know this—we're playing him wrong. You can't get your body on him because he just feels where you are and moves away from you. You've got to let him catch it and then go to work on him."

That same theory has been advanced by 76er center Malone, Olajuwon's longtime off-season foe at the Fonde Recreation Center in Houston. Olajuwon says he wouldn't know how to tell an opponent to guard him, though he claims that as L.A. changes defenders, he adjusts his game accordingly. "I know all their games," he says. And how does Lucas play you, Akeem? "Very physical," says Olajuwon. "He tries to push me out." Abdul-Jabbar? "He also tries to push me out. He is very strong." Kupchak? "Very physical." Boy, that's some book Akeem has on the Laker defense, eh? Everybody does the same thing.

But Olajuwon doesn't have to be analytical—his instincts and his wonderful body do everything that needs to get done. And that's not another way of saying he's dumb. Quite the opposite, in fact. "Did you know that Akeem speaks six languages?" Magic was asked before last Sunday's game. He smiled slightly and said, "He only needs one—'Give me the ball.' "

Clearly, though, there is something happening with the Rockets besides Olajuwon. But it sure wasn't Sampson on Sunday, when, plagued by foul trouble, he scored only 12 points and grabbed just eight rebounds. And it wasn't off-guard Lewis Lloyd (1 of 8 from the floor, zero rebounds) who played as poorly as anyone could play and still show vital signs. Yet the Rockets prevailed, holding Los Angeles to 16 points in the fourth period, much as they had held them to 18 in the final period of Friday's 117-109 win. How? And why?

Well, Robert Reid's experience and gamesmanship are paying off. He and backup point guard Allen Leavell are the only holdovers from the last Rocket team that got this far in the playoffs (in 1980-81, when Houston lost to the Celtics in the championship showdown). Rodney McCray has warmed to his role as the man who does a little bit of everything (he's averaging 7.8 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 10.5 points and only one turnover in the Laker series). And Mitchell Wiggins and Jim Petersen, each of whom took the same number of shots as Sampson did on Sunday (eight), have given the Rockets a lift off the bench. Petersen, in fact, was the leading re-bounder in the game, grabbing 13 in 26 minutes, as he bodied Abdul-Jabbar away from the boards. Hey, this guy can play. And it wasn't too long ago that the Phoenix stat crew credited Hank McDowell for two of Petersen's missed free throws because it couldn't tell the two apart.

Speaking of benches, remember the Lakers and that vaunted SWAT squad they had in reserve that was supposed to be better than many NBA teams? Well, it now consists of Cooper and a bit player from Iceland named Petur Gudmundsson. Lucas, the Enforcer, had the null set in points and rebounds on Sunday, and if he enforced anything against Olajuwon, it was the idea that his enforcing days are over. Kupchak got his first minutes in the series on Sunday, and had two points and two rebounds. And the rest of the Laker bench (Mike McGee, Larry Spriggs and rookie A.C. Green) might as well have been sharing a seat in the stands with Jack Nicholson—they hadn't played.

If the Rockets were, as Reid says, "a team that's starting to know each other," then the Lakers were a team that had lost confidence in its bench, which last year helped bring them the title. But then, hasn't every defending NBA champion since the 1968-69 Celtics failed to repeat?

Laker coach Pat Riley has a theory that offensive rebounds and blocked shots are the biggest plays in a game. "They say, 'I'm coming into your backyard and shoving the ball down your throat,' " says Riley. And that is exactly how Houston began to change the tenor of the series in Game 2, right in L.A.'s backyard. The Rockets grabbed 14 offensive rebounds and blocked 12 shots at the Forum—including five of Abdul-Jabbar's, one, by Olajuwon, a rare rejection of a skyhook—to even the series at 1-1. "They blocked so many shots," said Abdul-Jabbar, "I thought they dropped someone from the roof."

Game 3 in the Summit was a war from start to finish. But the most telling play occurred away from the battlefield in the paint beneath the Houston basket, late in the third period with Los Angeles leading 87-84. Magic had the ball and was about to start a fast break by passing to Cooper. Akeem stood nearby, posing, in Magic's mind, no danger. But just as Magic made the pass—"One I make all the time," he would say later—Olajuwon reached out and stole the ball, took a dribble and hit a short jumper, forcing Magic to foul him on the way up. Three-point play. Tie game. And yet another indication that the Lakers were dealing with some larger-than-life being.

...

The same cannot be said of Sampson, who still launches too many outside jumpers and spends too much time juking for position away from the basket. But don't think for a minute that things would be going this well for the Rockets if Sampson were not on the floor. To put it in the simplest terms, he occupies someone, and that someone is the 7'2" Abdul-Jabbar.

"Where they have Ralph down at the four-man [power forward], we have Kurt," said Kupchak. "It's got to make a difference. It hasn't been a glaring problem during the season because we've been able to compensate with [James] Worthy. But it's glaring against these guys." Kurt? Kurt who? Ah, Kurt Rambis. In the two games in Houston, Rambis was 1 for 1 from the field, with five rebounds. Clark Kent had entered a telephone booth and emerged as Lois Lane.

The other thing that Sampson accomplished, of course, was to keep Olajuwon away from Abdul-Jabbar on defense. As a result the Dream had only three personal fouls on Sunday. Yet, by sliding off the man he was guarding (Rambis or Lucas) and sneaking over from the weak side, Olajuwon could still harass Kareem. He had four blocks Sunday, two of them on Abdul-Jabbar. "He [Olajuwon] used to guard me during the season, and that didn't work out too well for them," said Abdul-Jabbar. "Now all he does is sit underneath and block shots. It makes it tough."

Tough isn't the word. The word may be impossible. For the Lakers to come back against the Rockets, someone besides Abdul-Jabbar, Magic and Worthy (who had 26 points despite a strained neck on Sunday) had to emerge quickly. Houston is confident and tough, so tough that the soft-spoken Reid, an avid follower of the Pentecostal religion, was talking in Gothic images. "The Lakers are thinking that we've cut them deep, very, very deep," said Reid. "There's lots of blood, and now we want to go for the kill."

And everyone in Laker Land knew which Rocket was holding the knife. They just didn't know how to make him put it down.


https://vault.si.com/vault/1986/05/26/big-rocket-big-blast

I'll be adding more later as I have time
NBA TV Clutch City Documentary Trailer:
https://vimeo.com/134215151
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#123 » by trex_8063 » Sun Nov 1, 2020 5:08 pm

Sorry I haven't had a lot of time to read and participate in this one the way I'd like. I'm just going to get to my votes.

This spot largely comes down to the Big Ticket, Dream, and Legend (in some order). Traditionally I'd probably have gone with an order of Hakeem > Bird > Garnett, though they're all so close it has felt fluid and I was never confident in the order.

Bird's got the least impressive longevity of the three [quite obviously] in terms of length of prime OR career, which is a major factor for me given I'm a total career value guy.
otoh, he's the ONLY one of the three who does NOT have any seasons that are more or less meaningless in terms of value added (KG has '14 and '16 which are negligible to meaningless in the grand scheme; Hakeem's final season is negligible). Bird, otoh, was ALWAYS adding value when on the court.

Bird is also the guy who [imo] looms the largest in terms of legacy, name recognition, and influence on the very popularity/growth of the game. This isn't a huge consideration in my criteria, but it certainly isn't ignored either.

KG's a giant in terms of his impact metrics, and posters like drza in particular have gone a long way in terms of scouting and demonstrating the means by which that value/impact comes. However, I don't know that we can assume Hakeem didn't loom similarly large in terms of impact [simply because we don't have the data], particularly given the usual narratives that surround him, as well as Ben Taylors evaluation/write-up of it on his GOAT listing. I also note the broad [full career] comparison in team success and cast-strength as I noted in this thread between KG and Hakeem. Cast strength appears fairly similar, while Hakeem carries a very small edge in every measure of team success (has a comparable WOWYR, too).

I certainly won't claim I'm confidently "right" to put Hakeem above KG, but to shift from my traditional stance, I would need some definitive proof of some other intangible, like amazing leadership qualities. Doctor MJ tried to provide this, but imo it fell a little flat: it mostly pertained to Boston fandom around his tenure as a Celtic. There are otherwise far too many documented instances of ex-teammates and/or GM's with whom he has a damaged relationship for my accounting.

I do find that I am less and less comfortable putting Bird ahead of him though, and it does somehow feel appropriate to have Hakeem and KG adjacent (very similar careers and player arcs in general). So I'm going:

1st vote: Hakeem Olajuwon
2nd vote: Kevin Garnett
3rd vote: Larry Bird
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#124 » by trex_8063 » Sun Nov 1, 2020 5:14 pm

Thru post #123:

Kevin Garnett - 6 (Doctor MJ, drza, Dr Positivity, eminence, Jordan Syndrome, limbo)
Hakeem Olauwon - 6 (90sAllDecade, freethedevil, Hornet Mania, Joao Saraiva, mailmp, trex_8063)
Larry Bird - 4 (DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Hal14, Odinn21)
George Mikan - 1 (penbeast0)
Oscar Robertson - 1 (ZeppelinPage)



Thread will go another 2 hours or so.

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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#125 » by 90sAllDecade » Sun Nov 1, 2020 5:30 pm

I'll add more later, but here is some of his impact evaluation from the BackPicks project, where he was ranked #6 all time above Garnett and others.

Backpicks GOAT: #6 Hakeem Olajuwon


...

Impact Evaluation
Quantifying Olajuwon can feel like solving physics. He’s essentially the only all-timer to never test his portability by playing with top-end talent, although his brush with other stars in ’97 yielded decent results given that the Big 3’s combined age was 101. When younger, his shoot-first tendencies made it unlikely that he could play a more team-oriented game, although his improved ’90s repertoire should have fit comfortably next to any perimeter star. And most notably, his individual and team offense regularly improved in the postseason, turning Houston from an afterthought into a championship contender despite its marginal personnel.

Before the 1984 season, a rebuilding Rockets team drafted 7-foot-4 Ralph Sampson and played at a 32-win pace (-3.1 SRS). The next year, they added Olajuwon, upgraded their guards and climbed to a 45-win clip (1.4 SRS). Both sides of the ball improved, but notably, the defensive efficiency jumped about 2 points and the Rockets finished fourth in defensive rating. Given his role and skill set, it’s likely Hakeem was responsible for a good chunk of this improvement as a rookie. In 1986, the Rockets weren’t much better in the regular season (a 47-win pace), although their offense grew as the defense dipped below average.

However, in the ’86 postseason, Houston excelled, improving its offensive rating from 110.2 to 110.7 despite tougher playoff competition. While offensive centerpieces typically decline against stingier postseason defenses, Olajuwon was one of the few who improved, elevating his scoring volume and efficiency. Most NBA mid-level offenses show a natural bit of relative improvement against harder postseason opponents, but Olajuwon’s Rockets were a whopping 2.7 points better.5

In other words, Hakeem’s offenses were inelastic, likely caused by his ability to take and hit difficult shots. This is a double-edged sword; Olajuwon’s poor shot selection and isolation tendencies can prevent an offense from flourishing, but they also made Houston resilient to most good defenses. There was nothing for the opponent to take away because he was already taking hard shots. More on this in a second.

Those ’80s Rockets teams were poorly constructed, bottoming out in 1983, then never really filling the roster with valuable role players. Sampson and Hakeem were supposed to be the future, but injuries derailed Ralph. Meanwhile, because of their immediate success, the Rockets added the following legends through the draft: Steve Harris (1985), Buck Johnson (1986, a rotation player by his third season), Doug Lee (1987) and Derrick Chievous (1988).6 Compounding matters, two rotation players were given a multi-year ban in the middle of the ’87 season for recreational drug use. It wasn’t until they stepped off the treadmill of mediocrity in 1992 that they snagged a worthwhile rookie in the lottery named Robert Horry.

Image

As you can see, there was minimal roster turnover, which is stupefying for a non-contender. Instead, Houston spun its wheels for a handful of seasons with a marginally talented group on both ends of the court. The ’80s Rockets never surrounded Hakeem with shooters to punish teams for double-teaming off his guards, and they regularly finished in the bottom-half of the league in 3-point shots attempted.

Olajuwon still left an impact footprint though. With Sampson, Hakeem missed 18 games in 1986 and ’87, and the Rockets were 3.3 efficiency points worse on defense without Hakeem. Then, with Sampson gone entirely, (1987-91), Olajuwon posted the best defensive stretch of his career.7 His court coverage and rim erasures led them to a five-year relative defensive average that was 3.4 points better than the league, finishing in the top five in each season. He did this with moderately strong defensive forwards (Rodney McCray in ’87 and ’88, then Otis Thorpe, who joined in ’89), but lacked elite defensive talent or a notable defensive system.8 During that stretch, Olajuwon led the NBA in defensive rebounding rate twice and block percentage once. Below, you can see how those Rockets stack up against the best unique five-year defensive stretches from 1970 to the mid ’90s:9

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Given the makeup of the league in the ’80s, I’m not sure it was possible for anyone to generate a super-team on defense like the 2000s Spurs. Houston never went all-in on that end like Pat Riley in New York, and thus their league-best ratings weren’t statistical outliers. Still, as the above chart depicts, only a few franchises had a better five-year defensive stretch than the Rockets in that period, a feather in Olajuwon’s cap.10

Without a second legit star and a fairly underwhelming supporting cast (apologies to Buck Johnson, Mitchell Wiggins and Sleepy Floyd), Hakeem still led the Rockets to a 52-win pace at full-strength in 1990 and 1991, on par with many notable lone-star efforts in history. His isolation scoring game made him a classic “floor raiser,” ensuring his teams weren’t overrun by stifling opponents. This trait is significantly more appealing in Olajuwon than every perimeter player in history — including young Jordan — because it’s paired with his defense, making it easier to win without offensive dominance. And Hakeem wasn’t just a great team defender, he was an individual shutdown artist of the highest order. Opposing All-Star centers lost nearly 4 points per 36 and more than 5 points of efficiency against him during the heart of his career:

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On offense, Houston’s improvement coincided with Hakeem’s personal development as a creator (per the scouting report). The ’80s Rockets were often poorly spaced with idle perimeter threats who watched Olajuwon dance with half of the opponent’s roster. But Rudy Tomjanovich’s Rockets were loaded with capable shooters waiting to hit spot-up jumpers, and the ’94 team set a record for 3-point attempts in a year (at the time).11 Then in 1995, the Rockets increased their 3-point frequency by 36 percent, setting another record for attempts with a shorter 3-point line.

However, efficiency was almost always an issue for Hakeem. Early in his career, his difficult shot selection and poor passing tendencies limited his offensive impact. The Rudy T years tapped into his ability to punish double teams and unleashed a high-variance strategy that was a threat to any opponent in a seven game series. But even with his shift in ’93 to a more willing creator, Olajuwon still took an enormity of challenging, double-teamed attempts, dampening his percentages. Here’s how his three-year peak compares to the other great big men of the 3-point era in the “Big 3” offensive dimensions of scoring, efficiency and creation:12

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In the postseason, Houston relied on him even more, and he responded by (amazingly) upping his scoring and creation. Here’s the same snapshot of the 3-point era big men, except this time using playoff data from those same seasons. Notice how Hakeem moves from the weakest creator to the strongest while maintaining his efficiency:

Image

All of this had a profound impact on the Houston offense. From 1993 to 1995, the Rockets were about a point better than the defenses they faced in the regular season, averaging 109 points per 100 possessions. But in 57 playoff games, with Hakeem ramping up, Houston was 5.3 points better than the defenses it faced, posting a 111 offensive rating. So while the Rockets hovered around 50-wins during the season with a small margin of victory, in those 57 playoff games they posted a 7.6 SRS (62-win pace) by maintaining a small margin over the best teams in the league. Hakeem’s inelasticity as a player likely turned Houston into a resilient team.

The Rockets took one last swing in 1997 when they added Charles Barkley to form a “super” (but elderly) team with Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler. When healthy, that was actually the best regular season team Hakeem ever played on (57-win pace). Ideally, when more talent arrives, stars develop a synergy and create easier shots for each other. That didn’t quite happen, as Hakeem posted comparable scoring numbers with slightly lower creation rates and the Rockets finished 3.6 points better than average on offense at full-strength. Age was certainly a factor at that point, but the results were a tad underwhelming.13

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Using Jeremias Engelmann’s three-year APM study from 2002-16, the best defensive players improved their teams by about 4.5 points per game. (The best offensive players approached 5.5 per game). Did the slightly congested spacing during his prime amplify his incredible ability as a help defender? I think it did, and thus his combination of scoring and defense provided a devastating package, even before he started passing more. If his resiliency truly made his ’93 and ’94 teams closer to 60-win competition, then his peak was likely matched by only a few players ever.

Augmented Plus-Minus (AuPM) paints him as a star player who fell short of the elites at the end of his prime. His 1994-95 two-year AuPM average of +4.8 falls in “only” the 95th percentile, but given the evidence, it’s clear that Hakeem was one of the rare players ever to genuinely have a larger impact against superior playoff competition. AuPM also underestimates Tim Duncan — from ’06-09, it’s about 2.5 points short of his APM value every year — the most functionally similar player to Hakeem in history. Both were elite defenders with strong isolation games who created via kick-outs but lacked court vision. Duncan’s passing grew beyond Hakeem’s, but Olajuwon’s scoring game was more robust.

Hakeem’s scaled APM marks from his post-prime years — 1997 and 1998 — land him at +4.0 and +3.4, respectively, with better impact on defense, suggesting that his prime impact metrics could have indeed been elite.14 And multiple game-level plus-minus studies view him as a superstar who’s a rung below the all-time MVPs, which makes sense given some his down years; Olajuwon was caught in a shifting team identity during his injury return in 1991, then feuded with management over contract disagreements in the 1992 season.

I consider him the best defender of the 3-point era, and that value holds on any team. His questionable shot selection and inability to scale on offense are a concern and his team situation creates enough uncertainty that I’m a bit uneasy about his offensive valuations. But I have a hard time slotting him much lower, especially given his similarities to Duncan, and in the most negative light, he’s no lower than ninth. Yet, he has enough longevity and such a high peak that he could easily place fifth. In another close call, he comes in with the sixth-most valuable career in NBA history.

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https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/
NBA TV Clutch City Documentary Trailer:
https://vimeo.com/134215151
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#126 » by Baski » Sun Nov 1, 2020 6:11 pm

1. Larry Bird-The one with best overall resume left. All there is to say about this guy has been said. At his peak he was clearly better than Magic Johnson and a young Michael Jordan.
ATG scorer, passer and rebounder. He was just so freaking good at basketball. Everytime I look for a better way to phrase it but I can only come up with "he was just good". I think most of you know what I'm talking about even though I'm probably not articulating it well enough.Bird had a feel for the game that few have ever exhibited.
I wish he could've played longer, but then if he did he'd be higher on this list.

2. Hakeem-Best peak of those left considering both RS and PS. Candidate for GOAT defender while being able to carry an offense. I love players who can do that because they give you a big leg up compared to others when team building. He had close to the perfect year in 1994 by winning basically every award that could be won and had an impressive POs run.

3. Jerry West-Way way way ahead of his time. Managed to shine in an era dominated by bigs and led his team to a title once the offense started to revolve around him. One of the best all-round guards of all time. Was really good for a really long time but lacks the hardware a few other have.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#127 » by O_6 » Sun Nov 1, 2020 6:26 pm

I wish I could go more in depth but I’m a little busy.

Hakeems combo of scoring + defense was special imo. His ability to scale up offensively was an extremely rare quality and allowed him to have a massive impact. His passing left a lot to be desired early in his career which keeps him from the top 5 for me. I think he’s the last of the great Centers still on the board, besides Mikan who is so tough to rate.

Interior dominators + perimeter offensive engines, those are the most impactful players in my view. Bird is the best player who isn’t either type imo. He’s not a perimeter creator like a great PG but he’s the single most flexible and versatile offensive player ever imo. This skill set allowed him to be a player you could add to any type of offense and see a massive lift. 2nd best off ball player ever to Curry, not only a catch and shoot monster but the GOAT catch and pass player who got so many amazing looks for his teammates.

KG vs. Kobe/Oscar/West is tough for me to figure out. There are some great arguments for KG but I’m simply not nearly as sold on his offense as some others so I still lean towards Kobe. Kobe’s ability to carry such an enormous load can’t be overlooked, he was brilliant on several deep runs and his deep repertoire of scoring skills plus underrated passing allowed him to be a legendary offensive player.

1. Hakeem
2. Bird
3. Kobe
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#128 » by Clyde Frazier » Sun Nov 1, 2020 7:18 pm

Apologies for the late vote but struggled back and forth between bird and hakeem for a while...

Vote 1 - Larry Bird
Vote 2 - Hakeem Olajuwon
Vote 3 - Oscar Robertson

Bird is one of those few players along with Jordan and Magic where longevity isn't as important to me. What they accomplished in their careers stands on its own to propel them to this elite status. Even with bird having some inconsistent post season performances, his first title run in only his second season showed how special he was, and took his play to another level in 84 and 86. His sustained high level play in his later injury plagued years showed how complete he was as a basketball plyer.

He's in that elite class of great basketball minds and decision makers. Especially on the fly, he could make something out of nothing, and that applied to all aspects of play, not just scoring. He had an innate ability to see the floor in a way most other players couldn't. It gives him the slight edge over hakeem to me. A the same time, you could make the argument hakeem's physical abiliities were unmatched as well.

Bird as a teammate

From himself on the court he seeks only consistency and considers that the true mark of excellence. ''But Larry's so sensitive to what his teammates need that he changes the emphasis of his game to accommodate them,'' says Jim Rodgers, the Celtics' senior assistant. ''It's a unique form of personal consistency, concentrating on the needs of others, isn't it?''

A Celtics teammate, Bill Walton, says: ''So much of it -- playing, in the locker room, away from basketball -- has to do with how much he cares. Larry cares about every element of everything he's involved in. With some people, the sphere of their life is so very small. The sphere of Larry's life is just huge.''

And yet these embers of generosity were kindled by the most incendiary competitive fires. Even now in the Valley there's not much amazement that Larry Bird turned out to be the greatest basketball player ever -- what the hell, somebody had to, so it might as well be a French Lick boy -- but there is some surprise that he could rise above the family temper to reach those heights. In order to win, Bird taught himself not to get angry, rather to gain satisfaction from somebody else's hot blood. ''I've learned it's a lot more fun making a shot with a guy hanging on you,'' he says.

Championships mean even more to Bird -- ''His mission,'' Auerbach calls them. ''That's why I play,'' Bird says. ''I'm just greedy on them things. Winning the championship -- I've never felt that way any other time, no matter how big some other game was. I remember the first time we won, against Houston (in 1981). We were way ahead at the end, and so I came out with three minutes left, and my heart was pounding so on the bench, I thought it would jump out of my chest. You know what you feel? You just want everything to stop and to stay like that forever.''

And that, in his way, is what Larry Bird does for us. He not only slows the world down, but he turns it back. ''I've studied it,'' Woolf says, ''and I think, above all, there's just an innocence with him. I think Larry takes anyone who knows him -- or sees him playing -- back to grammar school. Remember back then? Back then we didn't brag. We dove after the ball. We looked after our friends. I think with Larry we believe he'll save the team. We believe he'll save us somehow. So you follow him.''


http://www.si.com/nba/2007/10/24/flashback032188
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#129 » by trex_8063 » Sun Nov 1, 2020 7:24 pm

Thru post #128:

Hakeem Olauwon - 7 (90sAllDecade, freethedevil, Hornet Mania, Joao Saraiva, mailmp, O_6, trex_8063)
Kevin Garnett - 6 (Doctor MJ, drza, Dr Positivity, eminence, Jordan Syndrome, limbo)
Larry Bird - 6 (Baski, Clyde Frazier, DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Hal14, Odinn21)
George Mikan - 1 (penbeast0)
Oscar Robertson - 1 (ZeppelinPage)


21 counted votes requires 11 for a majority. So we'll eliminate Mikan and Oscar; both of their votes transfer to Hakeem, bringing new totals to:

Hakeem - 9
KG - 6
Bird - 6

Which brings it to another interesting scenario, where technically Hakeem would win by default because we'd next have to eliminate BOTH of Garnett and Bird. But this is fair anyway as ALL SIX of Bird's voters have Hakeem as the 1st alternate, and FOUR of six of KG's voters have Hakeem as the 1st alternate. So it seems one way or another, Hakeem's got this one well in hand.

Will have the next up in a moment.

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

ardee wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

DeKlaw wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

freethedevil wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

mailmp wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

scabbarista wrote:.

Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#130 » by Whopper_Sr » Sun Nov 1, 2020 7:28 pm

Will be going with KG until he gets voted in. With Magic and Shaq off the board, I'm looking at Hakeem, Bird, and now West. Hakeem is the last of the ATG big men who has a case for a spot in the top 10 so I'll give him the nod after KG. West has received some support here and I am comfortable with putting him over Hakeem even but will wait until he gets more traction.

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Jerry West
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#131 » by Baski » Sun Nov 1, 2020 7:31 pm

I keep seeing that Hakeem's 94 and 95 seasons are "hurt" by not facing Jordan, and I have a question for those who keep saying it:

Why? There's a lot wrong with that qualifier of "he didn't face Jordan"
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#132 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Nov 1, 2020 8:35 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Thru post #128:

Hakeem Olauwon - 7 (90sAllDecade, freethedevil, Hornet Mania, Joao Saraiva, mailmp, O_6, trex_8063)
Kevin Garnett - 6 (Doctor MJ, drza, Dr Positivity, eminence, Jordan Syndrome, limbo)
Larry Bird - 6 (Baski, Clyde Frazier, DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Hal14, Odinn21)
George Mikan - 1 (penbeast0)
Oscar Robertson - 1 (ZeppelinPage)


21 counted votes requires 11 for a majority. So we'll eliminate Mikan and Oscar; both of their votes transfer to Hakeem, bringing new totals to:

Hakeem - 9
KG - 6
Bird - 6

Which brings it to another interesting scenario, where technically Hakeem would win by default because we'd next have to eliminate BOTH of Garnett and Bird. But this is fair anyway as ALL SIX of Bird's voters have Hakeem as the 1st alternate, and FOUR of six of KG's voters have Hakeem as the 1st alternate. So it seems one way or another, Hakeem's got this one well in hand.

Will have the next up in a moment.



Quite reasonable process. As I've said, I'm just grateful you're allowing us anything beyond a #1 vote.

Congrats to Hakeem! Very deserving.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#133 » by Owly » Sun Nov 1, 2020 8:39 pm

trex_8063 wrote:otoh, he's the ONLY one of the three who does NOT have any seasons that are more or less meaningless in terms of value added ... Bird, otoh, was ALWAYS adding value when on the court.

Hmm. WoWY for that last year painted him as a neutral. And the Barry Scouting Report graded him a D on defense after that year. Then he missed most of the playoff games, played limited minutes in the ones he was in. Depends on your bar and he's still productive but it's iffy. Mind you Hakeem's last 3 seasons look low impact, low productivity to me so maybe a different bar.

trex_8063 wrote:However, I don't know that we can assume Hakeem didn't loom similarly large in terms of impact [simply because we don't have the data], particularly given the usual narratives that surround him, as well as Ben Taylors evaluation/write-up of it on his GOAT listing. I also note the broad [full career] comparison in team success and cast-strength as I noted in this thread between KG and Hakeem. Cast strength appears fairly similar, while Hakeem carries a very small edge in every measure of team success (has a comparable WOWYR, too).

Maybe not but, surely the burden of proof would be in saying it is (if "impact" is a big factor). If you're weighing impact and you think 93-95 are the best years and you've got two of those years the on-off is good but clearly worse than Garnett's best (and Robinson's in each year - and closer to a career average KG year). Maybe you're saying with the supporting evidence you offer that amounts to enough to support he did have that impact (or near enough).

Fwiw, just glancing at that thread and some of prime KG's Minny teams I see an awful lot of single digit PERs sneaking under your minutes threshold:
2000-2007
Okay I looked a little bit 49 player seasons. 10 player 100 or fewer minutes.
17665 total minutes.
18 have a PER of 10 or over. So 31 are lower. Of those with 10 or over, 5 of them are in the 100 or fewer minutes club. Of 39 between your threshold and 100 minutes 26 of the 39 (two thirds) are single-digit PERs.

These players amass .047008208 WS/48 and -7.1 VORP.

A shorter span for Hakeem's wilderness years 87-92
34 player seasons. 9 of which 100 minutes or fewer.
10589 minutes (even accounting for the 3/4 span you dredged deeper into the Rockets roster in your study)
20 have a PER of 10 or over. So 14 are lower. Of those 10 or over, 4 are sub 100 minutes. So of 25 between your minute threshold and 100 minutes, 16 are double digit PER. 9 are single-digit.
.047596562 WS/48. -2.9 VORP (at 3/4 of the seasons, lower % of the minutes).

1) I should have just calculated EWA from PER, rather than threshold nonsense.
2) This is just a snapshot because I thought KG's deep bench in Minny looked ugly, it's not full career.
3) 2 of the 3 box composites do suggest Garnett was getting worse bottom end casts in the spans selected.
4) I did look at adding a couple more low cast years for Hakeem, 2000 looked likely but that winds up bad for Hakeem adds final part year Barkley (and fluke year, Moochie Norris) and altogether including worse other players it - for instance - moves the VORP up 0.9. Throw in 2002 and VORP is still up on what it was from the 6 years selected (by 0.3 to -2.6).
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#134 » by SNPA » Mon Nov 2, 2020 4:51 am

Hal14 wrote:9) Larry Bird
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
11) Kobe Bryant

First off, there was a really good YouTube series done recently which broke down and analyzed the 8 players who can make a legit case for being the GOAT. Those 8 players are Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan and LeBron. The only guy from that list who has not yet been picked for this poll is Bird. If you think the guy who made tat video series has any credibility (I do), then Bird should have already got voted in by now.

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, here is the case for Bird as the GOAT:



Now, looking specifically at Bird vs Hakeem:

-Hakeem has a big edge on D
-Bird has the edge with 3 titles and 5 finals appearances compared to 2 titles and 3 finals appearances for Hakeem
-Bird also has an edge in that head to head in the finals, his Celtics beat Hakeem's Rockets in 6 games and Bird won finals MVP
-Bird also has an edge in that Bird won 3 MVPs, to Hakeem's 1
-Bird also has an edge in that when he won his 3 MVPs, Magic and Kareem were in their prime, Moses was in his prime still in 84 and Bird also beat out Hakeem himself in 86...whereas the 1 MVP that Hakeem won, MJ was retired
-Bird has an edge in that although both guys had to go through quite a bit of strong competition to win their titles, a) Hakeem never beat a team as good as the 84 Lakers and b) when Hakeem won his titles, 1 came during Jordan's retirement and the other came after Jordan's comeback when he was still not yet in basketball shape and only played with the team for a month before the playoffs began so you kind of have to put an asterisk next to those titles. Would the Rockets have still won those titles if Jordan never retired? Maybe, but maybe not..we'll never know. What we do know is that John Starks forgot how to shoot in game 7 of the 94 finals, he went 2/18 from the floor. If he only went 5/18, which still would have been really bad and below his season average FG%, then the Knicks win that game and the championship.
-Hakeem has an edge in that when he won his titles, he had a WAY worse supporting cast than Bird when he won his titles..like, not even close. Even in 81, Bird's supporting cast was better than Hakeem's was in either 94 or 95

Lastly...
-Hakeem's legacy? His legacy is a guy who won 2 titles with a pretty weak supporting cast. And Shaq says he's the best center he ever went against..but then again, all that really means is Hakeem is better than Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo and Robinson. None of those guys are in the conversation for top 10 of all time.
Bird's Legacy? I mean, c'mon, where do I begin? His swagger/confidence/cockiness/trash talk is literally the stuff of legend. There are multiple videos on youtube that are over an hour and a half long with former players/coaches giving their favorite Larry Bird story, their favorite Larry Bird trash talking stories, their stories about how much fear he struck into opponents, stories about his game winners, stories about how impossible it was to win in the Boston Garden during the 80s...not to mention that Bird - along with Magic saved the NBA when its popularity was dwindling and TV ratings were plummeting. Bird and Magic had to save the league when its best player was Kareem - yet somehow Kareem got voted for the no. 3 spot on here and Bird still hasn't made it and we're on no. 9, lol..Oh yeah and how about his impact on the game when it comes to the 3-point shot? The 3-point shot just so happened to be introduced during Bird's rookie year. For the first few years teams were not shooting many 3's at all, it was still a league dominated by inside play. Then Bird happened. He figured out as the 80s went on that a) he was actually really good at shooting 3's and b) hey wait a minute, if we start making lots of these, we might win more because they are worth 3 points instead of 2. He then started shooting more 3's, his scoring average increased, then the NBA introduced the 3-point shooting contest at the all-star weekend - Bird won the first ever contest - and the second - and the third. He probably would have won the fourth but he was injured in 89. After that, the rest is history, as we saw a steady increase in the amount of 3's being taken and an increase in how much 3's were being worked into the strategy of the game. Then there's Bird's impact on the Celtics. The year before his rookie year was their worst season in franchise history - they finished with the 2nd worst record in the NBA. Then in Bird's rookie year their win total improved by 32 games, which is nuts! They won the title just 1 year later and another 2 titles after that with Bird winning finals MVP. Then what happened after Bird retired? He retired in 92 and the Celtics wouldn't make another trip to the NBA finals for another 16 years, yikes!


How an experienced basketball connoisseur can watch this video (forget the voice over, or the hype, ignore everything but just Bird playing ball) can claim there are 8 better guys to ever play this game I’ll never understand. Baffling to me. A basketball savant. Legend. Embarrassing to have him below five. That’s all I’ll add to this project.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#135 » by Baski » Mon Nov 2, 2020 2:25 pm

SNPA wrote:
Hal14 wrote:9) Larry Bird
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
11) Kobe Bryant

First off, there was a really good YouTube series done recently which broke down and analyzed the 8 players who can make a legit case for being the GOAT. Those 8 players are Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan and LeBron. The only guy from that list who has not yet been picked for this poll is Bird. If you think the guy who made tat video series has any credibility (I do), then Bird should have already got voted in by now.

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, here is the case for Bird as the GOAT:



Now, looking specifically at Bird vs Hakeem:

-Hakeem has a big edge on D
-Bird has the edge with 3 titles and 5 finals appearances compared to 2 titles and 3 finals appearances for Hakeem
-Bird also has an edge in that head to head in the finals, his Celtics beat Hakeem's Rockets in 6 games and Bird won finals MVP
-Bird also has an edge in that Bird won 3 MVPs, to Hakeem's 1
-Bird also has an edge in that when he won his 3 MVPs, Magic and Kareem were in their prime, Moses was in his prime still in 84 and Bird also beat out Hakeem himself in 86...whereas the 1 MVP that Hakeem won, MJ was retired
-Bird has an edge in that although both guys had to go through quite a bit of strong competition to win their titles, a) Hakeem never beat a team as good as the 84 Lakers and b) when Hakeem won his titles, 1 came during Jordan's retirement and the other came after Jordan's comeback when he was still not yet in basketball shape and only played with the team for a month before the playoffs began so you kind of have to put an asterisk next to those titles. Would the Rockets have still won those titles if Jordan never retired? Maybe, but maybe not..we'll never know. What we do know is that John Starks forgot how to shoot in game 7 of the 94 finals, he went 2/18 from the floor. If he only went 5/18, which still would have been really bad and below his season average FG%, then the Knicks win that game and the championship.
-Hakeem has an edge in that when he won his titles, he had a WAY worse supporting cast than Bird when he won his titles..like, not even close. Even in 81, Bird's supporting cast was better than Hakeem's was in either 94 or 95

Lastly...
-Hakeem's legacy? His legacy is a guy who won 2 titles with a pretty weak supporting cast. And Shaq says he's the best center he ever went against..but then again, all that really means is Hakeem is better than Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo and Robinson. None of those guys are in the conversation for top 10 of all time.
Bird's Legacy? I mean, c'mon, where do I begin? His swagger/confidence/cockiness/trash talk is literally the stuff of legend. There are multiple videos on youtube that are over an hour and a half long with former players/coaches giving their favorite Larry Bird story, their favorite Larry Bird trash talking stories, their stories about how much fear he struck into opponents, stories about his game winners, stories about how impossible it was to win in the Boston Garden during the 80s...not to mention that Bird - along with Magic saved the NBA when its popularity was dwindling and TV ratings were plummeting. Bird and Magic had to save the league when its best player was Kareem - yet somehow Kareem got voted for the no. 3 spot on here and Bird still hasn't made it and we're on no. 9, lol..Oh yeah and how about his impact on the game when it comes to the 3-point shot? The 3-point shot just so happened to be introduced during Bird's rookie year. For the first few years teams were not shooting many 3's at all, it was still a league dominated by inside play. Then Bird happened. He figured out as the 80s went on that a) he was actually really good at shooting 3's and b) hey wait a minute, if we start making lots of these, we might win more because they are worth 3 points instead of 2. He then started shooting more 3's, his scoring average increased, then the NBA introduced the 3-point shooting contest at the all-star weekend - Bird won the first ever contest - and the second - and the third. He probably would have won the fourth but he was injured in 89. After that, the rest is history, as we saw a steady increase in the amount of 3's being taken and an increase in how much 3's were being worked into the strategy of the game. Then there's Bird's impact on the Celtics. The year before his rookie year was their worst season in franchise history - they finished with the 2nd worst record in the NBA. Then in Bird's rookie year their win total improved by 32 games, which is nuts! They won the title just 1 year later and another 2 titles after that with Bird winning finals MVP. Then what happened after Bird retired? He retired in 92 and the Celtics wouldn't make another trip to the NBA finals for another 16 years, yikes!


How an experienced basketball connoisseur can watch this video (forget the voice over, or the hype, ignore everything but just Bird playing ball) can claim there are 8 better guys to ever play this game I’ll never understand. Baffling to me. A basketball savant. Legend. Embarrassing to have him below five. That’s all I’ll add to this project.

I agree and feel terrible actually voting for him at #9, but it's a pretty crowded group of basketball savants up there with various advantages over him. Somebody has to be #9 (or out of the top 10, as it's looking now. Now THAT, I find embarassing).

Watching Bird play is so captivating. I watched some games from his 81 series against the 76ers and was tempted to say "ok screw it this guy's the GOAT", based on a 2nd year pre-peak performance. He was just so good at basketball. No other way to say it.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#136 » by freethedevil » Mon Nov 2, 2020 4:11 pm

No 1. Is the easiest choice.


Kevn Garnett has the most career value left by a landslide, with his corp outright clowning two of the candidates voted above him.

KG's peak absolutely demolishes anyone left not named Bird.

KG's leadership is probably the best of any candidate left.

KG's playoff impact demolishes anyone left not named bird.

KG is easily the most portable player left of any of the serious candidates

KG's imapct is the least dubious of any of the candidates left(and many candidates above him) because he kept up his ability tio impact winning on a wide variety of supporting casts of various quality ranginf from garbage to 66 win teams.


There's zero doubt for me that KG is no. 1, the second in career value, kobe bryant, wasn't even as impactful at his peak as KG was 8 years removed from his(2008) and his longetvity is worse.



2. Kobe Lets be clear, in the playoffs, he's less valauble han peak dirk or wade, and his regular season is roughly on par. Kobe is not being ranked second because of his peak which is an outlier in terms of how bad it is compared to the remaining candidates. but despite all of that, by playing long enough, Kobe's spiked his value up. Bird should have considered not breaking his hand in bar fights if he wanted to be ranked higher.


3. Larry Bird KG-esque peak, too many injuries. The most likely to underperform in the playoffs compared to his rs level. He rounds out my top 12.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#137 » by freethedevil » Mon Nov 2, 2020 4:37 pm

SNPA wrote:
Hal14 wrote:9) Larry Bird
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
11) Kobe Bryant

First off, there was a really good YouTube series done recently which broke down and analyzed the 8 players who can make a legit case for being the GOAT. Those 8 players are Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan and LeBron. The only guy from that list who has not yet been picked for this poll is Bird. If you think the guy who made tat video series has any credibility (I do), then Bird should have already got voted in by now.

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, here is the case for Bird as the GOAT:



Now, looking specifically at Bird vs Hakeem:

-Hakeem has a big edge on D
-Bird has the edge with 3 titles and 5 finals appearances compared to 2 titles and 3 finals appearances for Hakeem
-Bird also has an edge in that head to head in the finals, his Celtics beat Hakeem's Rockets in 6 games and Bird won finals MVP
-Bird also has an edge in that Bird won 3 MVPs, to Hakeem's 1
-Bird also has an edge in that when he won his 3 MVPs, Magic and Kareem were in their prime, Moses was in his prime still in 84 and Bird also beat out Hakeem himself in 86...whereas the 1 MVP that Hakeem won, MJ was retired
-Bird has an edge in that although both guys had to go through quite a bit of strong competition to win their titles, a) Hakeem never beat a team as good as the 84 Lakers and b) when Hakeem won his titles, 1 came during Jordan's retirement and the other came after Jordan's comeback when he was still not yet in basketball shape and only played with the team for a month before the playoffs began so you kind of have to put an asterisk next to those titles. Would the Rockets have still won those titles if Jordan never retired? Maybe, but maybe not..we'll never know. What we do know is that John Starks forgot how to shoot in game 7 of the 94 finals, he went 2/18 from the floor. If he only went 5/18, which still would have been really bad and below his season average FG%, then the Knicks win that game and the championship.
-Hakeem has an edge in that when he won his titles, he had a WAY worse supporting cast than Bird when he won his titles..like, not even close. Even in 81, Bird's supporting cast was better than Hakeem's was in either 94 or 95

Lastly...
-Hakeem's legacy? His legacy is a guy who won 2 titles with a pretty weak supporting cast. And Shaq says he's the best center he ever went against..but then again, all that really means is Hakeem is better than Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo and Robinson. None of those guys are in the conversation for top 10 of all time.
Bird's Legacy? I mean, c'mon, where do I begin? His swagger/confidence/cockiness/trash talk is literally the stuff of legend. There are multiple videos on youtube that are over an hour and a half long with former players/coaches giving their favorite Larry Bird story, their favorite Larry Bird trash talking stories, their stories about how much fear he struck into opponents, stories about his game winners, stories about how impossible it was to win in the Boston Garden during the 80s...not to mention that Bird - along with Magic saved the NBA when its popularity was dwindling and TV ratings were plummeting. Bird and Magic had to save the league when its best player was Kareem - yet somehow Kareem got voted for the no. 3 spot on here and Bird still hasn't made it and we're on no. 9, lol..Oh yeah and how about his impact on the game when it comes to the 3-point shot? The 3-point shot just so happened to be introduced during Bird's rookie year. For the first few years teams were not shooting many 3's at all, it was still a league dominated by inside play. Then Bird happened. He figured out as the 80s went on that a) he was actually really good at shooting 3's and b) hey wait a minute, if we start making lots of these, we might win more because they are worth 3 points instead of 2. He then started shooting more 3's, his scoring average increased, then the NBA introduced the 3-point shooting contest at the all-star weekend - Bird won the first ever contest - and the second - and the third. He probably would have won the fourth but he was injured in 89. After that, the rest is history, as we saw a steady increase in the amount of 3's being taken and an increase in how much 3's were being worked into the strategy of the game. Then there's Bird's impact on the Celtics. The year before his rookie year was their worst season in franchise history - they finished with the 2nd worst record in the NBA. Then in Bird's rookie year their win total improved by 32 games, which is nuts! They won the title just 1 year later and another 2 titles after that with Bird winning finals MVP. Then what happened after Bird retired? He retired in 92 and the Celtics wouldn't make another trip to the NBA finals for another 16 years, yikes!


How an experienced basketball connoisseur can watch this video (forget the voice over, or the hype, ignore everything but just Bird playing ball) can claim there are 8 better guys to ever play this game I’ll never understand. Baffling to me. A basketball savant. Legend. Embarrassing to have him below five. That’s all I’ll add to this project.

How an experienced basketball connoisseur can watch this video(forget the voice over, or the hype, ignore everything but just bitd playing ball) and claim there are 8 better guys to ever play the game I'll never understand. Baffling to me. A basketball savant:

Embarrasing to have him below 5.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #9 

Post#138 » by freethedevil » Mon Nov 2, 2020 4:54 pm

Mazter wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Kevn Garnett has the most career value left by a landslide

Karl Malone would care to differ on this. He would care, and I wouldn' care because he was never anywhere near as valuable as KG.

freethedevil wrote:KG's peak absolutely demolishes anyone left not named Bird.

I would say that at least Malone and Robinson had a peak that's close, maybe was even better than KG's.
If you ignore that KG was far more valuable than sure than Malone in both the rs and the playoffs and if you ignore that KG has a vastly better track record both defensively and offensively than robinson against good playoff offenses and good playoff defenses, sure. But I don't ignore those things, so I'm not going ot be treating players nowhere near as good as garnett as if they were as good as garnett.
freethedevil wrote:KG's leadership is probably the best of any candidate left.

Hmm yeah, wasn't he the leader of the 04/05 T'Wolves? A team that had 3 other players who played in at least 1 All Star game, reached the conference Finals the season before with the exact same roster, was tied for second in the pre-season odds and...failed to make the play offs for the first time in 8 seasons.
What's your point? Why would I give a **** about pre-season odds and how do the timberwolves playing 45 win basketball at full strength with a garbage level supporting cast suggest kg is a bad leader? What evidence that you have that any of the players coming there would have a better leadership relatef effect? What we do know is KG turned around a toxic boston lockeroom showing off-court value we've never seen from anyone left
freethedevil wrote:KG's playoff impact demolishes anyone left not named bird.

Uhmm, is this the same player who played only 47 play off games in his first 12 seasons? Yeah sure, he did something, after he joined something, but "demolishes any one" are very big words.
The fact that with such limied oppuruntity he put up several playoff stretches that clown kobe's best singular best, pretty strongly tells me he's a vastly better playoff player. The fact he was the best playoff performer 8 years off his peak tells me the regular season impact doesn't lie about him being a different calibre of player. And no, he did not do something once he got to boston. He was one of the most avaluable playoff performers in history with the timberwolves despite consistnetly being facing teams that overmatched his.
KG had his moments, but he also had his "not so-moments". He could go from being an MVP or DPOY (candidate) one year, to not being anywhere close moments later.
He went from being far better than everyone left(bird excluded) to being comparalbe or better. KG's flcutuations may be an issue compared with a lebron or a duncan, they're a moot point when you're comparing him to malone, robinson, or kobe whose highs aren't signifcantly better than kg's lows or Bird whose even more inconsistent and has **** longetvity.


KG's clearly the best left.


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