RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #11 (Kevin Garnett)

[Whopper_Sr]

Skill-set wise, Paul is second to none (including Magic).

I think you severely underrate Magic's skills, especially low block skills. Magic had the greatest low block game from a guard.

He's also one of the greatest defensive smalls ever.

Is this about height or position? Height is agreeable but saying he was one the greatest defensive PGs would be a big stretch. Especially considering the top defensive PGs were Jason Kidd and Walt Frazier, and Chris Paul never came close to them on defense.

BTW, these are directly to your reasons and not your pick. I think Chris Paul is a good mention. Just don't agree with these particular reasons.

I don't know how to split quote so I'll respond in order.

1. Low block skills aren't highly sought after in point guards. Sure, Magic had the size to use that as an avenue but would you really pass up on a guy like CP3 just because he couldn't post up? I value Paul's outside shooting a lot more than Magic's low post skills. This is not to say Magic has no argument over Paul as the most skilled PG ever. Magic is clearly the better passer for example.

2. More about height but both. Why do you think Kidd and Frazier were miles ahead of Paul on D?

CP3's low center of gravity allowed him to bang with wings (see 2018 WCF vs. Durant and that's a post-prime Paul), his masterful timing and anticipation in the passing lanes led to numerous turnovers/fast breaks (and was deadly in the open court too) which showcased his ball hawking and the immense pressure he puts on opposing ball handlers, and his pest-like maneuvers coupled with his motor are all hallmarks of an all time great guard defender.

[trex_8063]

Why should it matter what impact a player like Moses would have today? That's like penalizing Curry because before 1980, the 3 pointer wouldn't be counted as 3 points. I refuse to do this, in either direction. What matters is how strongly he impacted his era (and of course, how strong that era was).

I'm not saying anyone else has to think in these terms, but for reasons that I've gone into, I often find it hard to avoid.

Era portability can be a tricky thing to speculate on; for myself, I feel one should be cautious in it. I also think it's important to employ some degree of broad consideration; i.e. for someone like Moses you don't ONLY consider how he'd translate to today, but you also think about how he'd translate to the 50s/60s. Even if you want to consider MODERN era portability as more important (because it's a more competitive era than 50s/60s), I don't think it would be fair AT ALL to consider ONLY portability to the modern era.

[Odinn21]

Skill-set wise, Paul is second to none (including Magic).

I think you severely underrate Magic's skills, especially low block skills. Magic had the greatest low block game from a guard.

He's also one of the greatest defensive smalls ever.

Is this about height or position? Height is agreeable but saying he was one the greatest defensive PGs would be a big stretch. Especially considering the top defensive PGs were Jason Kidd and Walt Frazier, and Chris Paul never came close to them on defense.

BTW, these are directly to your reasons and not your pick. I think Chris Paul is a good mention. Just don't agree with these particular reasons.

I don't know how to split quote so I'll respond in order.

1. Low block skills aren't highly sought after in point guards. Sure, Magic had the size to use that as an avenue but would you really pass up on a guy like CP3 just because he couldn't post up? I value Paul's outside shooting a lot more than Magic's low post skills. This is not to say Magic has no argument over Paul as the most skilled PG ever. Magic is clearly the better passer for example.

2. More about height but both. Why do you think Kidd and Frazier were miles ahead of Paul on D?

CP3's low center of gravity allowed him to bang with wings (see 2018 WCF vs. Durant and that's a post-prime Paul), his masterful timing and anticipation in the passing lanes led to numerous turnovers/fast breaks (and was deadly in the open court too) which showcased his ball hawking and the immense pressure he puts on opposing ball handlers, and his pest-like maneuvers coupled with his motor are all hallmarks of an all time great guard defender.

1. Paul's skill-set being second to none looked too much to me. Magic was almost as crafty as Paul outside of the low block and the low block should put Magic ahead for certain. That's how I saw that issue.

2. He was not as consistent. He was not as impactful.
For example after getting Kidd, the Nets went from 23rd in DRtg with +1.8 rDRtg to 1st in rDRtg with -5.0 rDRtg.
I don't see Paul making such impact on defense. He's clever as hell, one of the best passing lanes readers. But those are the qualities Kidd and Frazier had then some. These 2 are the only PGs that made an impact on defense like a proper rim protector.

[Hal14]

There's only one player left who was THE best player in the game for any extended time (Pettit a couple of years, Curry a couple of years) . . .

1. George Mikan -- yes, he was that dominant from what I can tell; yes his league was that weak, it's a balancing act

And IMO, it's too much of a balancing act to rank Mikan this high - especially where there's so many great players still on the board. Mikan only played 1 season with a shot clock and that was the season where he only played 20 minutes a game, only had 10 points a game and only played in 37 games. Average height of a player back then was only 6'4" and he was 6'10.

My picks this round, are same as Hornet Mania:

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Jerry West

Each of these 3 guys can actually make a pretty good case for being top 10 all time.

To make the case for Kobe, I'll start by explaining why I have Kobe ranked over Shaq, who got voted in the no. 8 spot in this poll:

-Kobe won 2 titles without Shaq and Kobe was finals MVP both times whereas Shaq only won 1 title without Kobe and that time he needed Wade to help him and Wade was finals MVP.

-Kobe had more of a killer instinct and will to win

-Kobe had better work ethic

-Kobe was better/more consistent on defense than Shaq

-The Lakers (with both Shaq and Kobe) lost to the Jazz 4 games to 4 in 97 and they got swept by the Jazz in 98 - I put more of the blame for that on Shaq than Kobe though, since Shaq was in his prime whereas Kobe was still a baby, only first 2 years in the league as a 18/19 year old.

The other part to Kobe's case is that he was an extremely similar player to Jordan, in many ways. Some would say a carbon copy. He's closer to a Jordan clone than any other player ever. So if Jordan is no. 2 all-time (many people, including myself have Jordan no. 1 all time) then Kobe has a case to be top 10, and definitely has a case for the no. 11 spot here.....especially since Kobe had better longevity than Jordan and won not 1 but 2 titles where no one on his team is considered a top 30 or even top 50 player of all time (and Kobe was finals MVP both times), whereas Jordan had the benefit of Pippen (a consensus top 30 player of all time) for all 6 of his titles. Not saying I put Kobe over Jordan, just saying that he's a very similar player who is comparable to Jordan in many areas and even better than Jordan in a couple areas too so he has a strong case for a top 11 spot.

[Joao Saraiva]

Votes
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Jerry West
3. Karl Malone

Plenty of players left. But for me, no one better than Kobe Bryant.

He's among the best volume scorers this game has ever seen, with 2006 being the year he showed he could carry a good offense based on that mostly. The Lakers were 7th in SRS and 8th in ORTG. Given the roster they had, how amazing is that?

He also has a very good longevity, and in the playoffs he was consistent. His ts% was not among the elite ts% in the league, but it was sustainable in the playoffs for the most part while he kept being a volume scorer. He was also very low in TOV% trough his entire career, so there is more efficiency there that isn't measured in ts%.

He played very well in different roles:
- as a youngster we saw him as a 2nd fiddle to Shaq. He showed tremendous man to man defense, awesome playmaking abilities and, obviously, a ton of great scoring games. The best year was 01, and few superstars have replicated what Kobe did against Sacramento and San Antonio in their entire careers;
- he proved himself while playing with a not so good cast (being nice to the cast here). Kobe leading the 06 Lakers into the playoffs speaks highly of what he provided even with a bad cast surrounding him;
- he proved himself to be a legit #1 option later when the Lakers made a great trio of him, Gasol and Odom. They won 2 championships in 09 and 10, and we saw some truly epic performances by Kobe in both WCFs. Again, I'm talking about a ceiling most stars have failed to show us in their careers;
- in 2013 his will put a disfunctional Lakers squad in the playoffs, proving his longevity and power as a scorer. Too bad we couldn't see him that post season because of his injury.

Accodales wise, the resume is impressive. You can check that on basketball reference, his 1st team and top 5 MVP voting years are among the best ever. He got 1 MVP only (and rightfully so) but the circumstances were also hard. He went up against some of the best ever versions of LeBron in the RS (09 and 10) and once he was in his prime and leading his squad he had no chance because of lack of enough wins (05, 06, 07).

He was not as influential as some bigs on D and his help D was average for me. But his footwork and dedication on man to man D made him elite in that regard. I think he was very consistent in his 1st years with Shaq, and then later he was an excelent man to man defender at times. But I'm OK with that, some coasting on D is natural once stars get older.

[Joao Saraiva]

There's only one player left who was THE best player in the game for any extended time (Pettit a couple of years, Curry a couple of years) . . .

1. George Mikan -- yes, he was that dominant from what I can tell; yes his league was that weak, it's a balancing act

And IMO, it's too much of a balancing act to rank Mikan this high - especially where there's so many great players still on the board. Mikan only played 1 season with a shot clock and that was the season where he only played 20 minutes a game, only had 10 points a game and only played in 37 games. Average height of a player back then was only 6'4" and he was 6'10.

My picks this round, are same as Hornet Mania:

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Jerry West

Each of these 3 guys can actually make a pretty good case for being top 10 all time.

To make the case for Kobe, I'll start by explaining why I have Kobe ranked over Shaq, who got voted in the no. 8 spot in this poll:

-Kobe won 2 titles without Shaq and Kobe was finals MVP both times whereas Shaq only won 1 title without Kobe and that time he needed Wade to help him and Wade was finals MVP.

-Kobe had more of a killer instinct and will to win

-Kobe had better work ethic

-Kobe was better/more consistent on defense than Shaq

-Shaq got swept in the 95 NBA finals by the Rockets. Kobe never got swept while playing without Shaq

-The Lakers (with both Shaq and Kobe) lost to the Jazz 4 games to 4 in 97 and they got swept by the Jazz in 98 - I put more of the blame for that on Shaq than Kobe though, since Shaq was in his prime whereas Kobe was still a baby, only first 2 years in the league as a 18/19 year old.

The other part to Kobe's case is that he was an extremely similar player to Jordan, in many ways. Some would say a carbon copy. He's closer to a Jordan clone than any other player ever. So if Jordan is no. 2 all-time (many people, including myself have Jordan no. 1 all time) then Kobe has a case to be top 10, and definitely has a case for the no. 11 spot here.....especially since Kobe had better longevity than Jordan and won not 1 but 2 titles where no one on his team is considered a top 30 or even top 50 player of all time (and Kobe was finals MVP both times), whereas Jordan had the benefit of Pippen (a consensus top 30 player of all time) for all 6 of his titles. Not saying I put Kobe over Jordan, just saying that he's a very similar player who is comparable to Jordan in many areas and even better than Jordan in a couple areas too so he has a strong case for a top 11 spot.

So... we should forget 2011 ever happened?

[The Master]

Kobe never got swept while playing without Shaq

He did. So now your opinion about Kobe got worse?

[Hal14]

There's only one player left who was THE best player in the game for any extended time (Pettit a couple of years, Curry a couple of years) . . .

1. George Mikan -- yes, he was that dominant from what I can tell; yes his league was that weak, it's a balancing act

And IMO, it's too much of a balancing act to rank Mikan this high - especially where there's so many great players still on the board. Mikan only played 1 season with a shot clock and that was the season where he only played 20 minutes a game, only had 10 points a game and only played in 37 games. Average height of a player back then was only 6'4" and he was 6'10.

My picks this round, are same as Hornet Mania:

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Jerry West

Each of these 3 guys can actually make a pretty good case for being top 10 all time.

To make the case for Kobe, I'll start by explaining why I have Kobe ranked over Shaq, who got voted in the no. 8 spot in this poll:

-Kobe won 2 titles without Shaq and Kobe was finals MVP both times whereas Shaq only won 1 title without Kobe and that time he needed Wade to help him and Wade was finals MVP.

-Kobe had more of a killer instinct and will to win

-Kobe had better work ethic

-Kobe was better/more consistent on defense than Shaq

-Shaq got swept in the 95 NBA finals by the Rockets. Kobe never got swept while playing without Shaq

-The Lakers (with both Shaq and Kobe) lost to the Jazz 4 games to 4 in 97 and they got swept by the Jazz in 98 - I put more of the blame for that on Shaq than Kobe though, since Shaq was in his prime whereas Kobe was still a baby, only first 2 years in the league as a 18/19 year old.

The other part to Kobe's case is that he was an extremely similar player to Jordan, in many ways. Some would say a carbon copy. He's closer to a Jordan clone than any other player ever. So if Jordan is no. 2 all-time (many people, including myself have Jordan no. 1 all time) then Kobe has a case to be top 10, and definitely has a case for the no. 11 spot here.....especially since Kobe had better longevity than Jordan and won not 1 but 2 titles where no one on his team is considered a top 30 or even top 50 player of all time (and Kobe was finals MVP both times), whereas Jordan had the benefit of Pippen (a consensus top 30 player of all time) for all 6 of his titles. Not saying I put Kobe over Jordan, just saying that he's a very similar player who is comparable to Jordan in many areas and even better than Jordan in a couple areas too so he has a strong case for a top 11 spot.

So... we should forget 2011 ever happened?

A minor oversight on my part..just edited my post. That still leaves like 6 reasons why I have Kobe slightly ahead of Shaq.

[Hal14]

Kobe never got swept while playing without Shaq

He did. So now your opinion about Kobe got worse?

A minor oversight on my part..just edited my post. That still leaves like 6 reasons why I have Kobe slightly ahead of Shaq.

[mailmp]

Since we are playing around with eras, what do we think would happen if we threw 27-year-old Ewing on that 76ers team instead of Moses? Nice little direct peak comparison, seeing as 1990 Ewing was the same age as 1983 Moses. I am inclined to say they would have been even better — but alas, Ewing was born seven years too late.

First, Ewing wasn't the offensive force Moses Malone was and Moses Malone was pretty great on defense in that season. So, I don't know how you can explain that opinion.

Also the team finished the season with 65 wins, top 5 in both offense and defense, they had an SRS gap bigger than 2 to 2nd highest value. (7.53 to 5.06).
Went 12-1 in the playoffs, 3rd best win rate in NBA playoffs history while playing 2 of the top 5 SRS teams.
I mean, that performance right there is very very hard to up.

And, Moses played against great frontcourts, so it was not like he lacked a great positional competition.

Lol come on, this is just total results based analysis. What specifically makes 1983 Moses more of an overall “force” than 1990 Ewing. Yes, they were very good, but that does not mean they could not have been better. And when it basically is the entire reason to have a player in the top fifteen, it is definitely a question you should be examining more closely.

[Odinn21]

Since we are playing around with eras, what do we think would happen if we threw 27-year-old Ewing on that 76ers team instead of Moses? Nice little direct peak comparison, seeing as 1990 Ewing was the same age as 1983 Moses. I am inclined to say they would have been even better — but alas, Ewing was born seven years too late.

First, Ewing wasn't the offensive force Moses Malone was and Moses Malone was pretty great on defense in that season. So, I don't know how you can explain that opinion.

Also the team finished the season with 65 wins, top 5 in both offense and defense, they had an SRS gap bigger than 2 to 2nd highest value. (7.53 to 5.06).
Went 12-1 in the playoffs, 3rd best win rate in NBA playoffs history while playing 2 of the top 5 SRS teams.
I mean, that performance right there is very very hard to up.

And, Moses played against great frontcourts, so it was not like he lacked a great positional competition.

Lol come on, this is just total results based analysis. What specifically makes 1983 Moses more of an overall “force” than 1990 Ewing. Yes, they were very good, but that does not mean they could have been better. And when it basically is the entire reason to have a player in the top fifteen, it is definitely a question you should be examining more closely.

Well, looking at how you responded some of my arguments you've come across, I know that you won't take my word for 1983 Moses Malone definitely being better than 1990 Patrick Ewing.

I already stated 1983 Moses Malone being a bigger offensive force who did not lack defense. I mean I'm sure you'll try to make a case for 1990 Ewing based on his ppg number but Malone was a 31+ ppg scorer in the previous season which Malone had b2b months with 35+ ppg. He had a 38/17 month and then a 35/14 month to carry an god awful team to playoffs. 1990 Ewing had an obpm of 3.7 while 1982 Malone had 6.2. I'm also aware that you can make this about not comparing 1983 Malone to 1990 Ewing, but in terms team situations 1982 vs. 1990 is the comparison to make.
Quick side note about the gap between their offensive quality and performance; Ewing was never a 3+ obpm player before or after 1990. Moses Malone had 9 seasons with 3+ obpm in total, his obpm in his prime was 3.8 and his career obpm was also 3.1.

In short; the gap on offense between 1983 Malone and 1990 Ewing is bigger than the gap on defense. Malone was also considerably superior rebounder on both ends.

[trex_8063]

There's only one player left who was THE best player in the game for any extended time (Pettit a couple of years, Curry a couple of years) . . .

1. George Mikan -- yes, he was that dominant from what I can tell; yes his league was that weak, it's a balancing act

And IMO, it's too much of a balancing act to rank Mikan this high - especially where there's so many great players still on the board. Mikan only played 1 season with a shot clock and that was the season where he only played 20 minutes a game, only had 10 points a game and only played in 37 games. Average height of a player back then was only 6'4" and he was 6'10.

Just a couple brief comments wrt the bolded portion:
1) because it comes on the heels of comments pertaining to his one season in the shotclock era, I wasn't sure if you were referring to that year with the height comment; but the avg height in the league that year was 6'5" (it was otherwise 6'4" [at least from '52-'54]).
2) Did you stop to think about the actual relevance of this statement before making it? Did you think about how this same thing applies to MANY centers in MANY eras? Centers typically (like: on average) run about 5" taller than the league average. So Mikan's height edge of 5-6" [mostly 6"] is hardly over standard.

I mean, the average height in the league the last two seasons [more than 60 years after Mikan's last season] has been 6'6" [just 1" over Mikan's last season], and it has NEVER been higher than *6'7" (*and that figure is questionable in some years, as it's only very recently that the NBA has dictated that accurate and without shoes heights will be what is listed [which is what it was like back in the day]).

This is like saying Kareem's dominance should REALLY [more than Mikan's] be taken with a grain [or several] of salt because he's 7'2" in a league that averaged just 6'6" to 6'7".
Or Wilt's should be questioned because he was 7'1" [and a bit??] in a league that averaged 6'5" to 6'6".....
Or Robert Parish (7'1" in a league that averaged 6'6" to 6'7")....
Or Shaq (7'1" in a league that averaged 6'7")....
Or David Robinson (7'1" in a league that averaged 6'7")....
Or Nikola Jokic recently (7'0" in 6'6" league)...
Etc etc etc....

[DQuinn1575]

There's only one player left who was THE best player in the game for any extended time (Pettit a couple of years, Curry a couple of years) . . .

1. George Mikan -- yes, he was that dominant from what I can tell; yes his league was that weak, it's a balancing act

And IMO, it's too much of a balancing act to rank Mikan this high - especially where there's so many great players still on the board. Mikan only played 1 season with a shot clock and that was the season where he only played 20 minutes a game, only had 10 points a game and only played in 37 games. Average height of a player back then was only 6'4" and he was 6'10.

My picks this round, are same as Hornet Mania:

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Jerry West

Each of these 3 guys can actually make a pretty good case for being top 10 all time.

To make the case for Kobe, I'll start by explaining why I have Kobe ranked over Shaq, who got voted in the no. 8 spot in this poll:

-Kobe won 2 titles without Shaq and Kobe was finals MVP both times whereas Shaq only won 1 title without Kobe and that time he needed Wade to help him and Wade was finals MVP.

-Kobe had more of a killer instinct and will to win

-Kobe had better work ethic

-Kobe was better/more consistent on defense than Shaq

-The Lakers (with both Shaq and Kobe) lost to the Jazz 4 games to 4 in 97 and they got swept by the Jazz in 98 - I put more of the blame for that on Shaq than Kobe though, since Shaq was in his prime whereas Kobe was still a baby, only first 2 years in the league as a 18/19 year old.

The other part to Kobe's case is that he was an extremely similar player to Jordan, in many ways. Some would say a carbon copy. He's closer to a Jordan clone than any other player ever. So if Jordan is no. 2 all-time (many people, including myself have Jordan no. 1 all time) then Kobe has a case to be top 10, and definitely has a case for the no. 11 spot here.....especially since Kobe had better longevity than Jordan and won not 1 but 2 titles where no one on his team is considered a top 30 or even top 50 player of all time (and Kobe was finals MVP both times), whereas Jordan had the benefit of Pippen (a consensus top 30 player of all time) for all 6 of his titles. Not saying I put Kobe over Jordan, just saying that he's a very similar player who is comparable to Jordan in many areas and even better than Jordan in a couple areas too so he has a strong case for a top 11 spot.

So you’re discounting Milan because he wasn’t as good in his last season? I think Jabbar Shaq Jordan Bird Duncan show that isn’t necessarily a good argument. You can make whatever timeline adjustment you think is appropriate but you shouldn’t downgrade players based on the rules of the time.

[Joao Saraiva]

And IMO, it's too much of a balancing act to rank Mikan this high - especially where there's so many great players still on the board. Mikan only played 1 season with a shot clock and that was the season where he only played 20 minutes a game, only had 10 points a game and only played in 37 games. Average height of a player back then was only 6'4" and he was 6'10.

My picks this round, are same as Hornet Mania:

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Jerry West

Each of these 3 guys can actually make a pretty good case for being top 10 all time.

To make the case for Kobe, I'll start by explaining why I have Kobe ranked over Shaq, who got voted in the no. 8 spot in this poll:

-Kobe won 2 titles without Shaq and Kobe was finals MVP both times whereas Shaq only won 1 title without Kobe and that time he needed Wade to help him and Wade was finals MVP.

-Kobe had more of a killer instinct and will to win

-Kobe had better work ethic

-Kobe was better/more consistent on defense than Shaq

-Shaq got swept in the 95 NBA finals by the Rockets. Kobe never got swept while playing without Shaq

-The Lakers (with both Shaq and Kobe) lost to the Jazz 4 games to 4 in 97 and they got swept by the Jazz in 98 - I put more of the blame for that on Shaq than Kobe though, since Shaq was in his prime whereas Kobe was still a baby, only first 2 years in the league as a 18/19 year old.

The other part to Kobe's case is that he was an extremely similar player to Jordan, in many ways. Some would say a carbon copy. He's closer to a Jordan clone than any other player ever. So if Jordan is no. 2 all-time (many people, including myself have Jordan no. 1 all time) then Kobe has a case to be top 10, and definitely has a case for the no. 11 spot here.....especially since Kobe had better longevity than Jordan and won not 1 but 2 titles where no one on his team is considered a top 30 or even top 50 player of all time (and Kobe was finals MVP both times), whereas Jordan had the benefit of Pippen (a consensus top 30 player of all time) for all 6 of his titles. Not saying I put Kobe over Jordan, just saying that he's a very similar player who is comparable to Jordan in many areas and even better than Jordan in a couple areas too so he has a strong case for a top 11 spot.

So... we should forget 2011 ever happened?

A minor oversight on my part..just edited my post. That still leaves like 6 reasons why I have Kobe slightly ahead of Shaq.

I disagree with most of your points. However since this is not a Shaq vs Kobe debate and Shaq has already been selected, I'll keep those reasons for now.

[Magic Is Magic]

11. Jerry West
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson


Jerry West is the friggin logo for crying out loud. This guy was so great he won a Finals MVP on the losing team (1st and only time) and has so many Finals scoring records it's insane. It would be a travesty to not include him on this list of 11-13 just because he lost a bunch of Finals. Making it to 9 is hard enough and the only guys that made 9 or more are all already top 10 anyway: LBJ, KAJ, Russell, Magic

Kevin Garnett is one of those players that has excellent two-way abilities, won an MVP, a ring, and anchored an elite 2008 Boston Celtics defense later in his career. His 2-way impact is incredible and is hard to ignore. Also, his longevity is impressive and needs to be mentioned.

Oscar Robertson is one of those guys that is hard to rank, but what isn't hard to rank is his ability to be an elite level all around player. He was a 12x all star and led the league in assists 6x. Oscar also averaged a triple double for a full season BEFORE it was cool.

[70sFan]

For what it's worth, I'd take Jerry West over Paul on defense without thinking twice.

[Dutchball97]

1. Kobe Bryant - There are still plenty of amazing candidates left outside the top 10 but I don't think there is anyone else left with a career as accomplished as Kobe. He is one of the best second stars ever, threepeating alongside Shaq. The 2001 championship in particular was an amazing run by Kobe and it stacks up well against Oscar and KG's best play-off runs. Then Shaq left and Kobe was left with a pretty bad team. He grew as a player and got these bad teams to solid results, when the team around him was good once again Kobe led the Lakers to 2 consecutive titles with 2009 especially being an All-Time great play-off run. You could argue it's winning bias to put Kobe ahead of the likes of KG and Oscar when they have generally had better regular season performances than Kobe but I'm once again putting a premium on top end play-off performance and Kobe has a lot of that.

2. Jerry West - I mentioned last thread how I view Kobe and West's careers as pretty similar overall. They started out as great second options, grew into bonafide stars of their own right but hit a rough patch with their teams in the middle of the decade before emerging as the best player in the league for 1-2 years at the end of the decade. What made me strongly consider West over Kobe is his consistency in his prime. For both the regular season and the play-offs. Just year after year of high level play. It's unfair to penalize West too much for not winning as many rings as Kobe, their eras and circumstances were completely different but West not putting in a great performance during his only title campaign, while not quite being able to get over the hump for the majority of his career puts him slightly below the GOAT candidates for me.

3. Kevin Garnett - It was between KG and Oscar for this spot. Both players who have top 10 careers other than their somewhat disappointing play-off resumes. Like Kobe/West I see a lot of similarities in the careers of KG and Oscar. One insane peak year, surrounded by many other great prime years, as well as effective and winning old man play in their 30s. I just think that between the two KG did a better job of carrying his regular season form over to the post-season than Oscar.

I also considered Dr J again but I'd like to see some more knowledgable posters than me go a bit more in depth on him. His ABA years are something else, his 76 seasons in particular is amazing but like with Mikan it's a bit hard to put into context just how good it was due to the level of competition. I also know the post-merger NBA years are a mess but I'd still like to understand why Dr J wasn't even as good in those years as he was in 80-82. Then he wasn't all that great during the 83 title run, which is also odd with him being an elite player just the year before.

[limbo]

Will be voting for KG for the 6th time. Dirk is still my 2nd option, his metrics, longevity and consistency are all among the best left. His peak is also underrated, imo. How many players could you realistically put on those 2006/2007 Mavs that would put that cast in the Finals and have them win 67 games next year? You can't even use the 'perfect fit/cast' excuses here... Those teams had historically weak talent for a team you expect in the NBA Finals or winning anything close to 60 games, much less 67... And the fit was not ideal either. Weak playmaking, Dampier/Diop non-factors on offense and only Terry could shoot with some consistency. Stack was a chucker. I really don't see Kobe, Dr.J, Barkley, either of the two Malones being as good as Dirk peak wise. Oscar, West and Robinson is debatable, but then Dirk has advantages elsewhere (longevity, durability, competed in tougher era...)

Oscar/West are next in line for me. I'm leaning towards Oscar, but i'm not that confident. Would love to hear someone with more knowledge give some insight on these two.

[70sFan]

When we talk about all-around players, Jerry West is usually overlooked one. We all know about his offensive skillset, but unlike most players in conversation West was also one of the best defenders ever at his position.

Last time I used last game of 1972 Lakers winning streak to showcase West's defensive impact (keep in mind that he was already 34 years old in this game ). Here is my old post:

Spoiler:

Just after a jumpball, West took a player with the ball ansd prevented easy basket, then he switched quickly on Hudson and defended his drive really well. Keep in mind how quickly he reads the flow of possession - this is something that West did consistently. He rarely made mistakes without the ball.

This is another known atribute West possessed - he had very quick hands. I haven't seen many (if any) guards that disprutive on defense.

West gambled this time and went under the screen, but look how measured this gamble was - he didn't go for the ball in cost of potential breakdown - he stayed close to screen and ready to contest shot, but he realized that pass wasn't perfect and he delfected it, causing a turnover.

This is the first time in the game when Hudson beat West off the dribble, but West's long wingspan (reported as 6'9) allowed him to block his shot from behind anyway. Then West fouled Bellamy inside, trying to steal the ball.

This time Lou did just enough to make separation from West and he made nice pull-up jumper. Pay attention to how broadcaster said that Hudson got away with travel here - basketball was much different back then.

Great P&R coverage. West decided to go over the solid Bellamy screen and he blocked Hudson's shot from behind. Outstanding defensive play.

This time I decided to expand this post for another 1972 game - game 3 vs Bucks:

West with MJ-esque block on Jabbar, he was known for these type of help defense plays.

Look at this play - West followed his man but when he saw in a split second that the entry pass was thrown to Kareem, he quickly stole the ball. It shows how high his defensive awareness truly was.

West working very hard off-ball to deny the ball from Oscar, he did it successfully.

Despite size, West could provide rim protection with his sound rotations and decent length.

West helped Goodrich because he came inside doubling Kareem, then he was on the other side of the floor contesting Allen shot in split second. This movement on defense was typical for West.


This is not even from the half of this game, if anyone would like to see more - I can do that. I hope that my arguments are convincing (to some posters at least) that West was legitimately all-time great defender at his position. Combine that with his offensive impact and you have very solid candidate for next spot here.

[Gibson22]

1) Jerry west: best offensive player in a 3 and a half decades period, and comparable to the two best offensive players in the 80s (magic and bird), it isn't until the 90s that we have a player who is definitely superior on O (michael jordan), and an all time level defender for his position and of one the best of his decades. Goat level playoff performer and a great basketball mind

2) Kobe bryant: easily better offensive player than any other contender for the spot (minus oscar), comparable or better offensive players would be a bit below this position (nash, cp3, curry, kd), very good defender, best legacy, very good longevity, 5 rings etc, better playoff performers than most contenders. KG obviously has a huge gap on defense being himself the second best defender of the last 40 years but all in all I can't put him behind him

3) Really don't know. We have karl malone (monster longevity, great seasons and amazing scorer, passes the eye test being a 6-9 greak god with great post technique and transition ability in his younger days), kg (impact monster), erving (second best player of his decade, was the dominator of the league for at least 1 season), oscar robertson. Moses malone (probably not the greatest impact player and the stats don't favour him, but he was the undisputed best player in 1981-82 and 1982-83)