Political Roundtable Part XXIX

[montestewart]

I'd rather have Harris than Biden, even. With Biden you know what you will get. Trying to please everyone and take the middle path etc. He will blow wherever the loudest wind blows. Harris the AG evolved into a more progressive Harris in congress. Unknown where that goes, but it seems she is still changing. It's tough to change an 80 year old man, in any positive way that is.

It would be nice to again have a president who can lay out fact-based arguments, have the patience to take in new information, speak and act with some evidence of forethought, not constantly flaunt pure partisanship and bitter vindictiveness, etc. Trump is Leslie Nielsen as the umpire in Naked Gun, he's Homer Simpson as the baseball mascot, he's a product of uncritical adoration who routinely and loudly proclaims his brilliance and flawlessness. He has set the bar really low, but doddering, mainstream Biden easily exceeds it, and Harris would for years to come.

Still not sure exceeding that low bar is enough in the long run. Too many Americans still struggling with modernity after 100+ years. Democrats better come up with a sustainable answer for young voters so dispirited by their prospects for the future. Bad economy and high unemployment is a perfect breeding ground for future right wing and left wing extremists.

[Zonkerbl]

IMHO the discussion described in this article reveals just how incompetent Dem centrists are:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-democrats-pelosi-election/2020/11/05/1ddae5ca-1f6e-11eb-90dd-abd0f7086a91_story.html

AOC responds - Centrist Dems, stop blaming us for your incompetence (thread):

Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

can't help but think that Beto and Abrams would have had enough personal charisma to tilt the favor in the senate elections for dems to retake majority.

Beto ain’t winning state wide office in Texas after the “hell yeah im gonna take your guns comment”. Do what the GOP do, pander, pander, pander. All Texas state wide races need to be a Hispanic candidate. I think Julian Castro would make a strong candidate but that might just be me.

Abrams did win statewide and is the rightful Governor of Atlanta. I would have loved her against Purdue in the Senate race, I think she might have even run above Biden.

[Zonkerbl]

We've had the discussions on this board - the Republicans HATE US. Uncompromisingly. There's no arguing with them, there's only making them so mad that they refuse to talk to us anymore. Our job is not to make people who hate us happy - our job is to make the people who LIKE us happy. Socialism Schmocialism.

[dckingsfan]

can't help but think that Beto and Abrams would have had enough personal charisma to tilt the favor in the senate elections for dems to retake majority.

Beto ain’t winning state wide office in Texas after the “hell yeah im gonna take your guns comment”. Do what the GOP do, pander, pander, pander. All Texas state wide races need to be a Hispanic candidate. I think Julian Castro would make a strong candidate but that might just be me.

Abrams did win statewide and is the rightful Governor of Atlanta. I would have loved her against Purdue in the Senate race, I think she might have even run above Biden.

Beto is working on registering Ds so that there can at least be a race in TX. 2M and counting...

Awesome what Abrams has done!

[Kanyewest]

DNC should have a strict policy of not nominating anyone over 65 years old.

the fact that someone 77 can make decisions on what's best for an 18 year old who's just entering the job market is laughable. i'm 30 and i have problems relating to gen z.

I think it's time people wake up and start realizing that Biden might actually be the reason Trump didn't get a second term and none of the other candidates would have won.

I don't love the idea and it might not be true but it sure seems that way. Progressives keep blaming the Democrats and to an extent that's true. The bigger issue at this point is the electorate. It's obvious to see why Aristotle's idea of an enlightened monarch is popular amongst a certain crowd despite thr obvious problems therein.

To me, the bigger issue isn't even about old telling the young what to do; it's about the old regulating technology they don't understand and relying on industries to inform them, which invariably results in those industries self-"regulating." We need politicians that understand technology but people who embrace new technology are rarely popular because people don't like quick change that they feel embarrassed about because they don't understand it.

To be honest, that's largely what has Totalitarianism on the rise around the world, as far as I can tell. Younger generations did actually influence the future, but it wasn't in a way they expected. The new technology they developed went straight towards benefitting the wealthy and hardening the stances of the older generations at a time when people were having fewer kids in general.

It seems to be one of those things we will not know on how a progressive would have done i.e how Bernie/Warren would have done in a head to head election with Donald Trump. It is possible that Bernie could win- I personally know a fair number of Republican supporters who supported Bernie and may have done better with blue collar workers. Warren would have been a great debator. Then again, it is entirely possible that seem more people would have been scared of Socialism (although Trump may have successfully attached those terms in Florida). Even the polls had Bernie at a similar level of support head to head against Trump as Biden, but it's certainly clear now that those polls cannot readily be relied upon to make any predictions.

[I_Like_Dirt]

DNC should have a strict policy of not nominating anyone over 65 years old.

the fact that someone 77 can make decisions on what's best for an 18 year old who's just entering the job market is laughable. i'm 30 and i have problems relating to gen z.

I think it's time people wake up and start realizing that Biden might actually be the reason Trump didn't get a second term and none of the other candidates would have won.

I don't love the idea and it might not be true but it sure seems that way. Progressives keep blaming the Democrats and to an extent that's true. The bigger issue at this point is the electorate. It's obvious to see why Aristotle's idea of an enlightened monarch is popular amongst a certain crowd despite thr obvious problems therein.

To me, the bigger issue isn't even about old telling the young what to do; it's about the old regulating technology they don't understand and relying on industries to inform them, which invariably results in those industries self-"regulating." We need politicians that understand technology but people who embrace new technology are rarely popular because people don't like quick change that they feel embarrassed about because they don't understand it.

To be honest, that's largely what has Totalitarianism on the rise around the world, as far as I can tell. Younger generations did actually influence the future, but it wasn't in a way they expected. The new technology they developed went straight towards benefitting the wealthy and hardening the stances of the older generations at a time when people were having fewer kids in general.

It seems to be one of those things we will not know on how a progressive would have done i.e how Bernie/Warren would have done in a head to head election with Donald Trump. It is possible that Bernie could win- I personally know a fair number of Republican supporters who supported Bernie and may have done better with blue collar workers. Warren would have been a great debator. Then again, it is entirely possible that seem more people would have been scared of Socialism (although Trump may have successfully attached those terms in Florida). Even the polls had Bernie at a similar level of support head to head against Trump as Biden, but it's certainly clear now that those polls cannot readily be relied upon to make any predictions.

True, we will never know. I was doubtful myself beforehand but am convinced now, though: Biden was needed. Republicans aren't really moving to the Democrats in any numbers that matter - it's actually working the other way around. The Democrats stand to bleed middle ground support, even if a lot of it is just people staying home in order to bet on youth voter turnout and imaginary Republicans flipping. The anger definitely plays well and that's where Bernie is popular and people will like Bernie the person better but when it comes how they see things and how they'll vote... that's just different.

Honestly, this is the big challenge for progressives at this point. People talk about it can't hurt to try but it really can if you basically concede to both houses and the presidency being Republican to try.

The reality is that it isn't just Republicans against this stuff. To get it to work there are two ways to go about it; either an absolutely massive electoral wave that is nowhere close to existing (they couldn't even get Bernie through the Dem nomination, for example) or the trojan horse it with internal policy controls that people don't notice.

I'm not happy about this reality but it's clearly the way things are. If the Dems do manage to flip the senate (still a slim chance), Kamala is VP and people lime AOC and Katie Porter start taking on more prominent roles, that would be about as miraculous as it could have possibly been on the progressive front.


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[doclinkin]

Honestly, this is the big challenge for progressives at this point. People talk about it can't hurt to try but it really can if you basically concede to both houses and the presidency being Republican to try.

The reality is that it isn't just Republicans against this stuff. To get it to work there are two ways to go about it; either an absolutely massive electoral wave that is nowhere close to existing (they couldn't even get Bernie through the Dem nomination, for example) or the trojan horse it with internal policy controls that people don't notice.

I'm not happy about this reality but it's clearly the way things are. If the Dems do manage to flip the senate (still a slim chance), Kamala is VP and people lime AOC and Katie Porter start taking on more prominent roles, that would be about as miraculous as it could have possibly been on the progressive front.

I'm a bloody knuckled lefty and a Union guy through and through, and I agree wholeheartedly with this. Until and unless we can get some good PR and or own our own megamedia corporation, the billionaire elite will control the messaging and the algorithms that determine what people see hear and believe. You cannot appeal to the intelligence and better nature of half of the people in this country. Fear is a base emotion, it works. You can sell sex or fear or occasionally hope, but not nuance and policy. If we can do ANYTHING to alter unfetterd corporate control of elections and the political process, well, awesome, but the fact is while Democrats can win 7 of the last 8 popular votes, the machine still will grind up anyone who does not toe the line and protect some level of business as usual, because business has motive means and opportunity to destroy anyone who threatens to upset the status quo.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Agreed, Doc, and this is where I think we need to pay closer attention to what Elizabeth Warren seems to be trying to do. She's making noise and getting the message out there and normalize it but then drops back when push comes to shove. She played behind the scenes with Hillary and she's clearly doing it again with Biden.

Some of the most ardent progressives see that as weakness but it's really quite smart and not totally out of line with Sun Tzu. Democrats are a barrier of entry but they aren't the enemy and she keeps her eyes laser focused on the enemy while furthering her causes. Yeah, it would be nice to see a massive electoral wave sweep these kinds of needed reforms in, but denying the obvious and fighting the impossible fight in the style of Albert Camus won't change anything. Losing the battle to change the dynamics of the war is way smarter. It still might not work but at least it stands a chance.

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[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

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Read on Twitter

?s=21

[pancakes3]

i still say if you give people a target to hit, especially as it relates to their wallets - loan forgiveness, m4a, "infrastructure" make-work programs, trumpers will get on board.

doc said something about being a pro-union guy, but in 2016 it was the union workers who were biting hook line and sinker for Trump bringing manufacturing jobs back to the rust belt. Wellesley->Yale Hilary Clinton couldn't credibly run on that platform but Bernie can. Biden arguably can as well.

Florida just passed $15/hr minimum wage. There's an appetite for this, especially given that the demo of Trump's base identify as "populists." blue collar union workers used to be the bread and butter of the dems. the fact that a Manhatten land baron sold himself as the man of the people shows how far Dem focus has been pulled.

[TGW]

i still say if you give people a target to hit, especially as it relates to their wallets - loan forgiveness, m4a, "infrastructure" make-work programs, trumpers will get on board.

doc said something about being a pro-union guy, but in 2016 it was the union workers who were biting hook line and sinker for Trump bringing manufacturing jobs back to the rust belt. Wellesley->Yale Hilary Clinton couldn't credibly run on that platform but Bernie can. Biden arguably can as well.

Florida just passed $15/hr minimum wage. There's an appetite for this, especially given that the demo of Trump's base identify as "populists." blue collar union workers used to be the bread and butter of the dems. the fact that a Manhatten land baron sold himself as the man of the people shows how far Dem focus has been pulled.

Man, I was just about to post this...you read my freakin' mind. Crazy, "anti-socialist" Florida passed a $15 minimum wage. Almost got open primaries too. Proof that if something is presented in a sensible manner (universal healthcare, a fair minimum wage, free college/trade programs), the American people will overwelmingly support it. If you let the corporatist opposition frame it as "s0c1alisM", then it's going to get rejected.

The Democrats no longer support main street. They represent Wall Street, the MIC, and LGBT/abortion rights.

[dckingsfan]

i still say if you give people a target to hit, especially as it relates to their wallets - loan forgiveness, m4a, "infrastructure" make-work programs, trumpers will get on board.

doc said something about being a pro-union guy, but in 2016 it was the union workers who were biting hook line and sinker for Trump bringing manufacturing jobs back to the rust belt. Wellesley->Yale Hilary Clinton couldn't credibly run on that platform but Bernie can. Biden arguably can as well.

Florida just passed $15/hr minimum wage. There's an appetite for this, especially given that the demo of Trump's base identify as "populists." blue collar union workers used to be the bread and butter of the dems. the fact that a Manhatten land baron sold himself as the man of the people shows how far Dem focus has been pulled.

Question, which of the two are tangible:

$15/hr or GND?

Which is more popular:

M4A or Public Option?

There is a reason Biden beat Bernie - he didn't get sucked into the nebulous and built a big tent.

But fear works too - and that is what Trump ran on. The Mexicans are going to take over the country. The rioters are going to burn down your city. The Democrats are going to take your guns.

It ends up being policy against fear. Where populist is representing the fear of change by "ordinary people". Logic vs. emotion.

[doclinkin]

Frankly the way I see it, this election cycle was simply fear vs fear. Rage vs outrage.

Trump was able to gin up fears against rioters and socialism and foreigners. Weighed against fear of: global pandemic and destruction of democracy and any sort of hope of a functional government, and frankly fascism. I'm not sure I personally know anybody who was voting on policy issues. Except inasmuch as you would trust Biden to be pushed by AOC or Warren or others who might help pen policies that could undo some of the damage. Biden couldn't even really openly discuss the implementation of regulations that would prevent public servants from murdering americans in the streets without consequences.

And outrage, about half the country is rooting for indictments of the outgoing administration, to put on pointy boots, flick on the lights and kill all the cockroaches that run to the corners to hide. Did we hear any policy being discussed in any debates? Or was it all asshattery from one corner, and some attempt to bat it back where it belonged from the other.

[doclinkin]

So while everyone is distracted by the election and the Resident Chump is clearly on his way out, his administration dumps the heads of agencies regulating transfer of money overseas and nuclear security and weapons stockpiles. Oh and energy regulatory commission. We are in for a very dangerous time over the next few months. If he is not in office how is he going to pay his outstanding foreign debts, and favors owed from Russia Russia Russia, among others. He can't trade forgiveness for future favors. The kleptocracy just shifted into a whole new mode. They always do their dirtiest work on a Friday night, especially when the media is distracted by all their other scandals.

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

These people are living in a hallucinatory fever dream. Time to win two senate seats in ga and make dc and pr states

[Zonkerbl]

I think it's time people wake up and start realizing that Biden might actually be the reason Trump didn't get a second term and none of the other candidates would have won.

I don't love the idea and it might not be true but it sure seems that way. Progressives keep blaming the Democrats and to an extent that's true. The bigger issue at this point is the electorate. It's obvious to see why Aristotle's idea of an enlightened monarch is popular amongst a certain crowd despite thr obvious problems therein.

To me, the bigger issue isn't even about old telling the young what to do; it's about the old regulating technology they don't understand and relying on industries to inform them, which invariably results in those industries self-"regulating." We need politicians that understand technology but people who embrace new technology are rarely popular because people don't like quick change that they feel embarrassed about because they don't understand it.

To be honest, that's largely what has Totalitarianism on the rise around the world, as far as I can tell. Younger generations did actually influence the future, but it wasn't in a way they expected. The new technology they developed went straight towards benefitting the wealthy and hardening the stances of the older generations at a time when people were having fewer kids in general.

It seems to be one of those things we will not know on how a progressive would have done i.e how Bernie/Warren would have done in a head to head election with Donald Trump. It is possible that Bernie could win- I personally know a fair number of Republican supporters who supported Bernie and may have done better with blue collar workers. Warren would have been a great debator. Then again, it is entirely possible that seem more people would have been scared of Socialism (although Trump may have successfully attached those terms in Florida). Even the polls had Bernie at a similar level of support head to head against Trump as Biden, but it's certainly clear now that those polls cannot readily be relied upon to make any predictions.

True, we will never know. I was doubtful myself beforehand but am convinced now, though: Biden was needed. Republicans aren't really moving to the Democrats in any numbers that matter - it's actually working the other way around. The Democrats stand to bleed middle ground support, even if a lot of it is just people staying home in order to bet on youth voter turnout and imaginary Republicans flipping. The anger definitely plays well and that's where Bernie is popular and people will like Bernie the person better but when it comes how they see things and how they'll vote... that's just different.

Honestly, this is the big challenge for progressives at this point. People talk about it can't hurt to try but it really can if you basically concede to both houses and the presidency being Republican to try.

The reality is that it isn't just Republicans against this stuff. To get it to work there are two ways to go about it; either an absolutely massive electoral wave that is nowhere close to existing (they couldn't even get Bernie through the Dem nomination, for example) or the trojan horse it with internal policy controls that people don't notice.

I'm not happy about this reality but it's clearly the way things are. If the Dems do manage to flip the senate (still a slim chance), Kamala is VP and people lime AOC and Katie Porter start taking on more prominent roles, that would be about as miraculous as it could have possibly been on the progressive front.


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I have the opposite take. Biden was supposed to persuade crossover Republicans. There weren't any. Fortunately looks like the progressives turned out anyway, but for sustainable progress you're going to need them and black voters.

Biden really brought out black voters, God knows why, so if you want to give him credit, its for that. But we need progressive white voters too.

[doclinkin]

Read on Twitter

These people are living in a hallucinatory fever dream. Time to win two senate seats in ga and make dc and pr states

I'm in that same fever dream: zero chance they investigate computer hacking of the election since I have absolute certainty Trumpty Dumpty had Russian operatives doing the same in both elections. And there are black hat hackers working for big money operatives willing to do the same. There is a reason he was so fiercely against the mail in ballots, it's my firm belief they have been gaming the system since we switched away from 'hanging chads' and all that. There's a reason my both the predictive polls and the exit polls never match the outcome, and a reason why the mail ballots ALWAYS favor democrats, in every year. In any state where they can get away with it they shave the numbers on one side and fill the numbers on others. Not much in general, just enough to tip it.

Motive means and opportunity. Is it possible to do? Easy. Would it benefit them? Sure. Can they get away with it? They have so far, and in the case of Russian they do not care. At this point they only want to foment chaos and doubt. And Civil War. So that our country will be distracted while they enact whatever operations they have planned.

This:

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/kill-chain-the-cyber-war-on-americas-elections

and this:

https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Chain-Defending-America-High-Tech/dp/031653353X

and not just in states that have no paper ballots or that use paper ballots in some counties and have electronic rocords only in others.

https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state

I suspect they figure no one will ever get around to trying to match electronic data with the paper record in most cases.

[doclinkin]

I have the opposite take. Biden was supposed to persuade crossover Republicans. There weren't any. Fortunately looks like the progressives turned out anyway, but for sustainable progress you're going to need them and black voters.

Biden really brought out black voters, God knows why,

Barack Hussein Obama. Biden gets a pass because the nation's Black President Forever is fond of this guy. That's his running buddy.

Also Kamala helps.

[doclinkin]

So while everyone is distracted by the election and the Resident Chump is clearly on his way out, his administration dumps the heads of agencies regulating transfer of money overseas and nuclear security and weapons stockpiles. Oh and energy regulatory commission. We are in for a very dangerous time over the next few months. If he is not in office how is he going to pay his outstanding foreign debts, and favors owed from Russia Russia Russia, among others. He can't trade forgiveness for future favors. The kleptocracy just shifted into a whole new mode. They always do their dirtiest work on a Friday night, especially when the media is distracted by all their other scandals.

And I fully expect the heads of Intelligence agencies are next. For sure would have been if the resident chump had been elected.