OT Election Thread

[Dez]

Okay was that tweet I saw about there being an error in the Georgia polls and Biden's lead went from 4,000 to 7,000 actually legit? If so that is actually hilarious.

[dice]

Yeah everyone is using this as some sort of proof that Biden was the right move and that it's why the DNC has to keep moving towards the right and keep pushing "moderate" candidates.

Bullsh*t. They did absolutely awful considering the wide open slam dunk this should have been. Their down ballot performance was absolutely pathetic too. Just a liiiiitle bit more competent voter supression and all the swing states they barely won are going to Trump.

The Dems are pathetic and they will just keep losing with their garbage ass "electable" candidates.

you and 'the stig' are just so far off the mark with this take it's incredible. first of all, the DNC does NOT keep "moving towards the right." fake news. more and more progressive candidates are running, and the party platform has quite plainly moved to the left in the past few years. just not as fast as people like you want it to and not as fast as the birther party has been moving to the right. the party is more liberal than it has EVER been. the facts are out there, but feel free to ignore them. doesn't make you much better than the other side

many are arguing right now that the party didn't do as well as they should have in this election BECAUSE they catered too much to the left wing rather than adhere to the tried and true methodology of actually WINNING EFFING ELECTIONS. if you think that bernie sanders, for example, would have done markedly better than biden, you're grossly deluded

more extreme candidates simply don't tend to do as well appealing to moderate electorates. that's just political science 101

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/01/06/progressive-democrats-bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren

i've said it time and time again: the period of most progressive accomplishment in american history was when a bold, practical leader (FDR) had a huge majority of MODERATE DEMOCRATS in congress. the most moderate democratic congress in history, actually. and FDR wasn't a liberal on the order of a bernie sanders either. he just got a lot done that needed to be done...because he had a lot of help




speaking of FDR, please for the love of god give me the name of a democratic president since then who you wouldn't consider to be a moderate. because it sure seems to me that by your definition JFK, clinton and obama were all "garbage ass electable candidates"

why did obama not get a "medicare for all who want it" public option? because he didn't have quite enough help in congress. simple as that. the alternative was the "nuclear option" of eliminating the filibuster on all legislation. no senate majority in history has been bold enough to go that far. i was hoping the dems would take the senate and do just that this time around, but instead we're gonna be subjected to at least 2 more years of birther obstruction

This nonsense is squiggly gobbley gook. You're trying to tell me that Obama was more liberal than FDR

no, i'm not trying to tell you that, chuckles. i'm saying that if FDR was in obama's situation, he would have accomplished approximately the same for the progressive cause

If Obama did social security, it would have been for people over 85, private and paid for 10 years max. Because he'd try to strike the grand bargain and sell out to republicans and financial companies.

it makes no damn sense to compare obama's situation (where we already HAVE social security) to some vacuum scenario where we don't

[musiqsoulchild]

Trump will run again.

He always sees Obama as inferior to himself. Trump wont be able to stomach that he is a 1 term President.

He is going to run in 2024. Or have Ivanka run as a proxy.

[Chi town]

I'm not saying he will die down and be quiet. I am saying that his base won't have the platform it has in the past. It was bolstered by him being in power and Fox News pandering to him and spreading his false information to inflame the masses.

I guess we'll see how Fox News handles it moving forward. They should cut their losses and go back to just conservative leaning and drop all the MAGA Quanon crap.

Controversy has created cash for them over the past 4 years. They're the top draw in cable news.
But now you don't have any choice but to drop the MAGA nonsense. Your puppet master is no longer in power.

They were diehard in not calling Biden the President-Elect to appease Trump and kept spreading his misinformation.

Without the source of chaos in power, now your message will fall completely flat and the ratings will fall. So you have to get back to actual factual reporting.

One can hope.

[Chi town]

Trump will run again.

He always sees Obama as inferior to himself. Trump wont be able to stomach that he is a 1 term President.

He is going to run in 2024. Or have Ivanka run as a proxy.

I sure hope not. Just watching his militia cult crazies is anti america

[TheStig]

you and 'the stig' are just so far off the mark with this take it's incredible. first of all, the DNC does NOT keep "moving towards the right." fake news. more and more progressive candidates are running, and the party platform has quite plainly moved to the left in the past few years. just not as fast as people like you want it to and not as fast as the birther party has been moving to the right. the party is more liberal than it has EVER been. the facts are out there, but feel free to ignore them. doesn't make you much better than the other side

many are arguing right now that the party didn't do as well as they should have in this election BECAUSE they catered too much to the left wing rather than adhere to the tried and true methodology of actually WINNING EFFING ELECTIONS. if you think that bernie sanders, for example, would have done markedly better than biden, you're grossly deluded

more extreme candidates simply don't tend to do as well appealing to moderate electorates. that's just political science 101

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/01/06/progressive-democrats-bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren

i've said it time and time again: the period of most progressive accomplishment in american history was when a bold, practical leader (FDR) had a huge majority of MODERATE DEMOCRATS in congress. the most moderate democratic congress in history, actually. and FDR wasn't a liberal on the order of a bernie sanders either. he just got a lot done that needed to be done...because he had a lot of help




speaking of FDR, please for the love of god give me the name of a democratic president since then who you wouldn't consider to be a moderate. because it sure seems to me that by your definition JFK, clinton and obama were all "garbage ass electable candidates"

why did obama not get a "medicare for all who want it" public option? because he didn't have quite enough help in congress. simple as that. the alternative was the "nuclear option" of eliminating the filibuster on all legislation. no senate majority in history has been bold enough to go that far. i was hoping the dems would take the senate and do just that this time around, but instead we're gonna be subjected to at least 2 more years of birther obstruction

This nonsense is squiggly gobbley gook. You're trying to tell me that Obama was more liberal than FDR

no, i'm not trying to tell you that, chuckles. i'm saying that if FDR was in obama's situation, he would have accomplished approximately the same for the progressive cause

If Obama did social security, it would have been for people over 85, private and paid for 10 years max. Because he'd try to strike the grand bargain and sell out to republicans and financial companies.

it makes no damn sense to compare obama's situation (where we already HAVE social security) to some vacuum scenario where we don't

Doubtful. People forget that Obama had both houses of congress. He thought he could get everyone together and did the grand compromise, instead of the republicans ram it down the throat approach. And in the end they chewed him up and spit him out and blocked most of what he wanted to do. Other than giving grandiose speeches. No one can take that away from him. He's all talk.

It was an apt comparison.

[TheStig]

Luckily for him, Presidents increase their wealth after leaving office. But he's burned too many bridges among donors and the GOP. Even if his base wants him, the people who hate him and had to deal with his demands of loyalty but never showing it in return will never stand for it.

He buried the Senator from Arizona who was nothing but a loyal solider for him and she lost the election and he lost the state.
He went in on Governors who have backed him and called their election processes into question.

People like the McMahon's of the world will back him with funding but they won't be enough to get him back in a position of power.

Nobody cares about the GOP. He literally chewed up and spit out the RNC chair and got even more money. The donors love Trump. He gives them monster tax cuts and cuts regulation. That's all the super rich donors really care about.

It won't matter, if the country moves on and does well. He'll never sniff the nomination.

It's amazing you can say these things with certainty. He won 2 nominations. He's not the kind of guy who's going to fade into the sunset. After ingratiation day, it won't be the last you hear from him.

[PlayerUp]

He won't get the backing to get the nomination. That's what I am trying to say. He burned too many bridges.

The interesting thing about Trump is he's so crazy that he could just run as an independent, and unlike anyone else, he might just not back down. The Republicans might be locked into having Trump split the party in 2 or backing him as their candidate if Trump does his own thing, and there's rally little reason from what we've seen to think that he won't just do his own thing. He can absolutely afford to run without the help of the Republican machine too.

I'd be curious as to what the Republicans would do if they don't nominate him and he just goes full on independent.

Well said Doug.

Either let Trump run again or the GOP will automatically lose the 2024 election as he runs as an independent splitting their base.

However for Trump to actually win in 2024, the US would have to go further down to the point people realized they made a mistake voting for Biden and should have picked Trump. Only way Trump would win in 2024.

[PlayerUp]

Nobody cares about the GOP. He literally chewed up and spit out the RNC chair and got even more money. The donors love Trump. He gives them monster tax cuts and cuts regulation. That's all the super rich donors really care about.

It won't matter, if the country moves on and does well. He'll never sniff the nomination.

It's amazing you can say these things with certainty. He won 2 nominations. He's not the kind of guy who's going to fade into the sunset. After ingratiation day, it won't be the last you hear from him.

Actually this may even be the complete opposite. Trump will have more time on his hand. Starting his own Trump TV network, running more rallies (with fewer people attending of course), Trump could continue to push people to his side.

[dougthonus]

However for Trump to actually win in 2024, the US would have to go further down to the point people realized they made a mistake voting for Biden and should have picked Trump. Only way Trump would win in 2024.

People may feel that way regardless. The president doesn't have much actual impact on day to day life, so if there is a post-COVID recession (which I think there will be), then there is an excellent chance that people will blame Biden for it. I predicted before this election that whichever party lost would pretty trivially win the next one and still think that is true.

[PlayerUp]

Trump will run again.

He always sees Obama as inferior to himself. Trump wont be able to stomach that he is a 1 term President.

He is going to run in 2024. Or have Ivanka run as a proxy.

Trump would be the proxy here. Ivanka is not like her father in many ways so she maybe more appealing to the moderates who didn't vote for Donald. However it's going to be difficult for any Trump to win moving forward unless they can convince people they will not divide the nation. That was the #1 issue on why Trump lost this 2020 election. Had he done the opposite and brought people together, his base would have increased and he would have been a lock to win this election.

[TheStig]

It won't matter, if the country moves on and does well. He'll never sniff the nomination.

It's amazing you can say these things with certainty. He won 2 nominations. He's not the kind of guy who's going to fade into the sunset. After ingratiation day, it won't be the last you hear from him.

Actually this may even be the complete opposite. Trump will have more time on his hand. Starting his own Trump TV network, running more rallies (with fewer people attending of course), Trump could continue to push people to his side.

No one knows what will happen. But nothing about Trump says going quietly into the night.

[TheStig]

However for Trump to actually win in 2024, the US would have to go further down to the point people realized they made a mistake voting for Biden and should have picked Trump. Only way Trump would win in 2024.

People may feel that way regardless. The president doesn't have much actual impact on day to day life, so if there is a post-COVID recession (which I think there will be), then there is an excellent chance that people will blame Biden for it. I predicted before this election that whichever party lost would pretty trivially win the next one and still think that is true.

There is already a covid recession. It's just not in the stock market. Recessions typically don't last years. Things will be on the upswing in a couple of years. I don't think we'll be in a recession in 2024.

[dougthonus]

There is already a covid recession. It's just not in the stock market. Recessions typically don't last years. Things will be on the upswing in a couple of years. I don't think we'll be in a recession in 2024.

Who knows where things will be in 2024, you never know. The stock market is up 7% this year, people talk about economic recovery, but the stock market is actually up more this year than a "typical" year.

[dice]

This nonsense is squiggly gobbley gook. You're trying to tell me that Obama was more liberal than FDR

no, i'm not trying to tell you that, chuckles. i'm saying that if FDR was in obama's situation, he would have accomplished approximately the same for the progressive cause

If Obama did social security, it would have been for people over 85, private and paid for 10 years max. Because he'd try to strike the grand bargain and sell out to republicans and financial companies.

it makes no damn sense to compare obama's situation (where we already HAVE social security) to some vacuum scenario where we don't

Doubtful. People forget that Obama had both houses of congress. He thought he could get everyone together and did the grand compromise, instead of the republicans ram it down the throat approach. And in the end they chewed him up and spit him out and blocked most of what he wanted to do. Other than giving grandiose speeches. No one can take that away from him. He's all talk.

It was an apt comparison.

we've been over this before. there's a thing called the filibuster in the united states senate. as such, 60 votes are effectively required to pass major legislation like health care reform. the democrats had 60 votes in the senate for mere weeks. joe lieberman was also virulently opposed to a public option. the "ram it down their throats" approach would have required the nuclear option, which the GOP has never employed for such purposes either. they DID use it to eliminate the filibuster for judicial appointments, which has allowed trump to nominate tons of unqualified federal judges. it was my hope that the democrats would take the senate, nuke the filibuster on all legislation, expand the supreme court and add a public option to obamacare...but that doesn't look like a possibility

there's absolutely no reason to believe that FDR would have magically wrangled 60 votes either. which is the point of this conversation. he HAD a supermajority of moderate democrats. obama had more liberal support, but didn't have the supermajority

FDR and obama were both pragmatists. FDR was criticized by the left for being too friendly to business, for being too harsh on striking workers, for failing to support ANTI-LYNCHING legislation as a political compromise. the guy put japanese-americans in internment camps. he ignored jesse owens after he won 4 gold medals in berlin. he waited to join the war against hitler until we were attacked...he had his own political realities to deal with, and was probably something of a racist

[dice]

can't wait for trump's "oh, pardon me" comedy routine, which is sure to take place over the next 2 months

[musiqsoulchild]

Trump will run again.

He always sees Obama as inferior to himself. Trump wont be able to stomach that he is a 1 term President.

He is going to run in 2024. Or have Ivanka run as a proxy.

Trump would be the proxy here. Ivanka is not like her father in many ways so she maybe more appealing to the moderates who didn't vote for Donald. However it's going to be difficult for any Trump to win moving forward unless they can convince people they will not divide the nation. That was the #1 issue on why Trump lost this 2020 election. Had he done the opposite and brought people together, his base would have increased and he would have been a lock to win this election.

I am not talking about the actual election.

I am talking about the Primaries.

Who in the Republican side can stand against Ivanka or Donald in 2024?

[Ice Man]

Okay was that tweet I saw about there being an error in the Georgia polls and Biden's lead went from 4,000 to 7,000 actually legit?

No.

[Ice Man]

Who in the Republican side can stand against Ivanka or Donald in 2024?

The central question is, will Donald Trump attempt to continue to dominate the GOP, or will he step aside, do the TV thing, and let others take the political lead? If it's the first, I think he will succeed. He will tweet-destroy anybody in the GOP who stands up to him. That doesn't strike me as a good long-term fate for the GOP, to have a kingmaker who crushes internal debate and dissension. But that surely is how it would be for at least the near term, given the loyalty that he commands with so many GOP voters.

Now if he does the TV thing and becomes another version of Fox & Friends, then he might help the GOP cause. But I'm not sure that his ego will accept being a cheerleader, as opposed to being the king or kingmaker.

[musiqsoulchild]

Who in the Republican side can stand against Ivanka or Donald in 2024?

The central question is, will Donald Trump attempt to continue to dominate the GOP, or will he step aside, do the TV thing, and let others take the political lead? If it's the first, I think he will succeed. He will tweet-destroy anybody in the GOP who stands up to him. That doesn't strike me as a good long-term fate for the GOP, to have a kingmaker who crushes internal debate and dissension. But that surely is how it would be for at least the near term, given the loyalty that he commands with so many GOP voters.

Now if he does the TV thing and becomes another version of Fox & Friends, then he might help the GOP cause. But I'm not sure that his ego will accept being a cheerleader, as opposed to being the king or kingmaker.

Why cant he do both?

He can live telecast his /Ivankas preparation in the Republican primaries as a reality TV show.

He wins in EVERY possible way.

And it's not even his fault. Its OUR collective fault that this is the state of America.